Wow. I just found this site yesterday and as someone who typically soaks up information and researches things, I'm almost (or am) overwhelmed by the amount of information available. I admit to being new here, so I hope bringing my question to the forum is okay. I just ordered the His Needs, Her Needs DVD for my husband and I to watch together as well.

Here's my general question: What if following Basic Concept #9, The Policy of Joint Agreement (i.e. never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse) simply does not appear feasible? What if despite the fact that I'm the one who currently doesn't agree with something, I don't believe I have a right to dictate what my spouse can/can't do?

My situation, in a nutshell:
I love my husband. He says he loves me. But we've drifted apart. We've been together for 10 years, married for 8. We don't have kids, but we each have businesses that are all consuming. My husband's sole focus in life, until recently, was work. He's been that way since childhood. When we first got together, he welcomed the opportunities/experiences I brought to the table (travel, vacations, hobbies, social activities, etc.) and always seemed to enjoy them. His business started changing and became even more consuming and less successful, which created an ever-more-consuming spiral. This has gone on for years. He was so consumed by business that it felt like he had nothing left for me. He didn't hear me, he wasn't accountable to things he said he would do, he spent days/nights/weekends on his laptop focused on his business. If we were out, I could tell he wasn't really there. He essentially hasn't been present for me for many years.

I am very (too?) independent. I also struggle to express my feelings. So, while I would occasionally try to tell him how much it hurt not to be heard (i.e. to have the same conversations over and over and/or to find that someone else made a suggestion I had made long ago and he found it to be an amazing idea) or how much I value accountability and it bothered me that he wasn't following up on what he said he would do, I mostly just suppressed my thoughts/feelings and changed my behaviors to avoid finding myself in those situations (i.e. stopped asking for help or counting on him doing what he offered). I rationalized that he was dealing with a lot of stress and that once XYZ was in place at the business things would get better. We would have time for one another again. He was worth waiting for. Unfortunately, it's 8 years later and XYZ still isn't in place at the business. Meanwhile, my career was demanding and became even more so, leaving both of us with little time for ourselves or each other.

My husband had a milestone birthday recently and suddenly it hit him that he's wasting his life working all the time and there has to be more to life than work. He's become involved in a new hobby, and I would guess if someone were looking from the outside his behaviors would classify as addiction. From the inside, I know he is very enthusiastic about new things and easily enthralled (he was about me in the beginning). It really hurts me that that he skipped over me when he started seeking out opportunities for fun and things to do outside of work. I'm not the one he turned to when he decided to create time for life, he instead turned to a new hobby and is "all in." Now I feel that he prioritizes myself and our marriage behind both work AND his new hobby. I've been demoted.

My husband says the right things, but his actions don't support his words. He says I'm important - even a priority - but I can't feel it. Unfortunately, 8 years of neglect plus my recent "demotion" in his life results in a not-so-happy wife. I can see why he wants to escape from me, as well as his business, and into his new hobby/obsession. However, this is not going to help our marriage. I'm focused on trying to rebuild/reconnect and he's just trying to keep his head above water, but to my mind, doing so by spending all his free moments/energy immersed in his new hobby. His staff has seen the change in him: he's so happy, they say! He's ecstatically happy due to his new hobby, while I'm having trouble even keeping up with my day to day obligations due to the crushing sadness I feel about our situation. I think there's a big disconnect there.

So, back to the root of the question: his hobby upsets me at a deep level. He's forming all these cyber-relationships with people and it feels as though he's sharing his life with them, rather than with me. I'm trying to come to terms with the hobby (the furry fandom), but struggling. It gets somewhat of a bad reputation in the media; however, my husband assures me that he just enjoys the "silly fun" and art aspects of it, and that he's not into the sexual side of it (which he asserts is a very small minority of the group). In any event, some of his words/actions cross lines of intimacy in my eyes - things I would reserve for my spouse, but that he says are just "fun!" and silly things to say online. He signed up for more conventions for this year (without telling me/talking with me about the dates), ordered an expensive fursuit (without mentioning it to me), etc. So, it's not just a cyber activity. And all of these things (traveling, spending money, socializing, etc.) are very out of character for him. I don't really know why the hobby disturbs me the way it does; I don't know why I can't just find it fun/funny. My husband is utterly baffled by my reaction. He can't figure out what the big deal is, why I'm so disturbed by his hobby, and what my problem is. He says he'd like me to get involved and he thinks I'd like it if I gave it a chance. So, he *says* he'd like me to get involved, but I have a visceral negative reaction to it on many levels, and as I told our marriage counselor (we started counseling a few weeks ago), I would bow out of our relationship before I would make him choose, since I don't feel it's fair for me to say what he can/can't do, and I think long-term that would only cause greater problems in our relationship in terms of resentment.

So, the Love Bank and everything else I'm reading here really makes a lot of sense. However, I can't see how Basic Concept #9 would work in our lives since he's not exactly trying to exclude me (according to his words, his actions have been pretty exclusive of me), but I am having trouble wanting to share (or even hear about) this hobby and am not sure I'll ever come around to getting involved. So, now we appear to struggle with two significant components of Dr. Harley's theories: Basic Concept #9 and sharing our favorite recreational activities. I'm not certain how to move forward...

I can relate; as my husband and I are both involved in those "all consuming hobbies"; the difference being that we do it together. We often see "mixed marriages" where one partner is involved and the other isn't. When you spend that much time going to conventions, events and activities with other people, it's bound to have a negative impact on your marriage. I think it's definitely something you need to discuss with your counselor, and perhaps you could find out what it is that your husband finds so appealing about this hobby and find a middle ground hobby you two can share. It may be that he is just looking for social interaction and like minded people and you could find that in some other type of re-enactment group.

POJA is not about dictating what your spouse can and cannot do. I don't dictate anything to Markos and he doesn't dictate anything of me. Neither of us would be happy with that arrangement.

Yet we live by the POJA.

All POJA really is is a way to force ourselves to be considerate of our spouses. I do not want to hurt Markos, and so I don't do anything that would offend him. He does the same for me.

Now, there are 2 types of resentment. The resentment your husband would feel by giving up his hobby is less severe and less damaging to the marriage than the resentment you now feel. His resentment will go away as soon as the two of you can find a new hobby to do together. Your resentment will only continue to grow.

This hobby of his is not the only activity out there that he could enjoy doing. There are hundreds of things that could replace it, and out of those hundreds, there are some that the two of you could enjoy together.

You seem to have a very independent marriage. Independence will seep the life out of your marriage. In order for your marriage to thrive, you need to create an interdependent marriage. POJA can help you do that.

With all that said, I think you need to snoop for an affair. There are several red flags in the things you have said about his behavior. Even if there is no affair yet, he is taking a lot of risks that could very easily lead to one.

Dr. Harley reiterated today on the radio show the purpose of the POJA is thoughtfulness. The intent is never to control your spouse, instead, to protect your spouse from your own abusive, selfish instincts. (We all have them.)
Your husband will have to actually listen to you and then STOP and do nothing until you can both find a comfortable way to move forward, if at all.

Have you read this about incompatability?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5026_qa.html

Ugh. Thanks for the responses so far. I have to admit, while we both say we want to work on the marriage, I personally don't think we will find a POJA for the furry thing. He is utterly defensive of the fact that it's the first thing he ever wanted to do and that we've always done what I want to do, and what's wrong with his choice. This hurts me as I feel he is playing the victim in our marriage I'm a very laid back person who has a lot of interests outside of work. His interests have been solely focused on work, so he didn't bring anything up that he wanted to do, and always seemed to happily go along with my ideas (which I always asked him about and tried to get his buy-in). On this one, he just started researching it and signed up for a con last year (telling me after the fact) and has just become thoroughly addicted. I told him it hurt that he didn't even consider me in all his plans and that I always think of him first, often turning down trips with friends because I know our free time is limited and I want to spend it with him. He apparently doesn't feel the same and is now doing a lot of out of character things (at least to the man I thought I knew/married) and not involving me. He keeps telling me he doesn't INTEND to hurt me, but can't seem to recognize the difference between his intent and his actions.

I'm not perfect. He thinks I'm too critical, and I am a perfectionist (who is much harder on myself than on others) as well as a planner/thinker/logical person who is competent and capable of doing mostly anything I need to. As a result, I probably don't fulfill his need to be needed. He doesn't like working with me (like home projects, all this time I thought we made a good team), and I haven't met his needs for affection or sexual fulfillment. It's been hard because I just don't feel an emotional connection. You're right, we've been leading independent lives for a long time, and when I don't/can't show desire he is hurt.

I'm trying to work on it, but am afraid we're in a really bad place.

Anything that comes before the marriage will destroy the marriage.

Problem is, he doesn't think it comes "before" our marriage. He doesn't see it as an issue - other than as my issue to get over. And that if I just get over it things will be fine. (At least this is my perception, I obviously can't speak for him.)

You will need to give him the opportunity to give it up, and if he doesn't, let him know that he cannot stay married to you. Don't debate him about whether you should get over it or not, don't debate him about whether he sees it as "before" the marriage or not. Just let him know that a condition of staying married to you is that he will need to give up activities that you are not enthusiastic about and replace them with activities that you do together that you are both enthusiastic about.

When to Call it Quits (part 1)

Give it up, as in all or nothing? Or some sort of boundaries/compromise as to the level of activity?

I'm trying to "get over it" so it would bother me less, but don't know if that will happen or how to get there. But - and I'm not trying to be dense here - I'm still struggling with how it's okay/reasonable for me to say "you have to give it up because it bothers me."

bowabom, it is not reasonable for one spouse to do something that makes the other unhappy. That is how people fall out of love and create incompatible marriages. Here is what Dr Harley says about this:


And he does not have to give up anything. BUT, if he wants to have a happy marriage, he will stop doing things that make you unhappy.

If it doesn't come before your marriage, then he should gladly give it up if it is causing unhappiness in your marriage.

bowabom, let me put this another way. If your husband told you something you did bothered him, wouldn't you stop doing it? Or would you keep doing it knowing it annoyed him?

Dr Harley describes different approaches to marriage in his book Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders. Which best describes your husband?


Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyer believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Rentersbelieve Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.

I can't think of an example to really do a gut check, but I believe I would stop doing it. My challenge in coming to terms with this concept is he tells me he "just wants to make me happy", but I don't see it in his actions and I'm guessing he doesn't know how. I think he's at the point of believing he can't. Conversely, the furry world makes him extremely happy. He came back from his first con saying he'd gotten more hugs in that weekend than in the rest of his life, laughed harder than he ever had, and wore a smile for three straight days, or something like that. How do I justify robbing him of that joy simply because I don't get it, find it disturbing, and feel threatened by the time/attention he invests in it?

Please understand I'm not trying to be difficult or obstinate. I guess I never expected to encounter a situation like this - I'm usually so laid back and logical, but this furry thing is like nails on a chalkboard and my reaction is totally emotional, so I'm just struggling. And the furry situation is what really exposed the cracks in the foundation of our relationship, so I'm trying to figure out the path forward on a micro and macro level. Dr. Harley's concepts are new to me and I'm trying to read his writing and Q&A's to help understand the implementation of everything.

I really appreciate everyone's input, even though it makes me think we're one step away from the end, instead of on the path to rebuilding.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if he could find that same happiness in his marriage? Just think how happy one is when he is passionately in love in a romantic relationship? He can't ever find that kind of happiness in the "furry world." Never.

So, that is what we would teach you both how to do. Make each other so blissfully happy that you won't WANT to squander your free time on such hobbies. That may sound like a pipe dream, but it is sure isn't to those of us who have achieved that very thing there. There is no way I would squander my free time on any hobby that took me away from my spouse. I spend as much free time with him as I can.

I agree that sounds amazing (and like a pipe dream). It's hard to fully describe, but all I know to say is that he doesn't think there is anything wrong except that I am being unreasonably upset by his new hobby/lifestyle and just need to get over it. I don't know if HNHN is where we should be starting, but that's the thing I bought (because I thought there would be a better chance of us watching a DVD together than reading a book together).

His Needs Her Needs is a book

If you want to watch videos about Marriage Builders you can view them here:

HNHN is also a DVD, and this poster appears to have already bought it.

The DVD is on Amazon along with the accompanying workbook: here

Yep, that's the one I bought. Hopefully it is a good starting point.