Ernie,

Have you completed Anger Busters or some other appropriate anger management program? Any love-busting behavior needs to stop immediately, including the AO's and the DJ's. Even one LB is one too many.

What can you both cut out of your budget to be able to afford the online program with an accountability coach? Can you have a respectful conversation about this ASAP?

Also, have you read about Openness & Honesty? Does Elaina know everything about the finances? Is she comfortable and safe with the financial knowledge that you have shared with her?

Fear.

My decisions are based on fear.

I fear if I concede all monies then I will have absolutely no more say over finances. I have no gentle way to approach the subject without feeling like we would both be putting up huge walls simultaneously.

I feel all I have ever asked was for her to just put a throttle on the fast food/junk food and other spending I viewed as frivolous. Once that has occurred, my trust would be 100% restored... but until that happens, I just can't bring myself to trust. I feel too vulnerable.

I believe Markos has made a suggestion regarding SD's. Did you read his posts?

Further, it appears that you are only willing to change after your wife changes. Is that true?

I suggested a way to approach the situation. Did you try it?
BrainHurts did the hard part and gave you the links.
Did you read and apply?

If you have the attitude that none of this is going to work because she is who she is, you've made one of the most destructive disrespectful judgements that can be made.

Get your paystubs mailed to your house as your first step towards transparency and honesty. She's amenable to MB, so print out the budget worksheets and present the issue with a smile and a negotiating stance.

Then, try to practice holding off on DJs even here. It's not frivolous spending on junk food. You know that that's your _opinion_, right? During caring conversation, you might learn that she doesn't like cooking and that super stretching of dollars takes so much work, that she doesn't want to do that as a lifestyle.

As an aside, a huge red flag for me is the statement "that's all I ask for, this one simple thing..." That's usually a complaint of a controlling person. So now, instead of running away and feeling attacked, look the idea in the face and decide you don't want to be like that any more.

Sir,

I completely agree with you on the issue of spending money on junk food.....
However, if you want to stay married you will have to follow the POJA or your marriage will end in divorce.

I think you are at a crossroads here, where you either decide to follow the POJA and work towards a romantic marriage or just get divorced.

So Ernie, do you realize you are saying that once she gives you your way 100% and cedes to your supervision then you will trust her to be supervised by you?

Not the way a marriage works, buddy.

You are both equal partners.

Treating your spouse like the inferior person in a marriage is one of the fastest ways to make her fall out of love with you.

This is excellent advice.

There is no yours/mine/ours in a marriage.

Not only are you enforcing yours/mine/ours, but your version of that seems to be: "yours (whatever I say is yours)", "mine (whatever I say is mine", and "ours (whatever I say is ours)".

Before you take the step that Lifetime Learner is suggesting, how about if you provide Elaina with full disclosure of your income and "Ernie expenses" and ask her to come to the discussion with a suggested budget?

If your household budget is as tight as you indicate, I would bet you a Starbucks coffee that you will both be suggesting substantially similar suggested budgets.

So you see, Ernie, I'm smelling something else in this situation than simply a disagreement about finances.

Please give Lifetime Learner's suggestion about control some serious thought. That's what I hear from your comments as well.

Do you want a wife who's love for you is more like Stockholm syndrome, or do you want a true marriage? It doesn't seem that Elaina is one of the people who can develop Stockholm syndrome, so herein is your dilemma.

Also, is it true that you have not filed taxes for three years?

If you have, could you please show Elaina your signed/filed returns so you can put her mind at ease that her husband is not racing along a one-way road to prison?

The beauty of having her suggest a budget is that ensures she's 100% on board with her budget (which based on tight finances will likely be 90% or better of what you want as well).

There you have it, your biggest conflict easily resolved with her FULL buy in - since the resolution is her suggestion.

Since what your are POJA negotiating is that last 10% (if even), the stakes are low and the conversation can be calm and productive.

Also, during the discussion, you might POJA what happens if one or the other needs to make a variance to the budget based on circumstances.

For example, any variances over $50 need to be POJA'd, or if there are more than three smaller variances in any month all variances after the third one need to be POJA'd.

You also need to have some leeway for urgent situations, trusting one another to make a good judgment call upon occasion.

For example: Let's say you both ENTHUSIASTICALLY agree there is not money in the budget for more than 2 junk food stops per month. However, it is the 30th (two stops already having been made) and Elaina's day went sideways with a child needing an ER trip where they are released at 6 pm. Elaina had no time to make dinner and needs to care for the child upon arriving home/has no time to cook dinner, so she stops to pick up Taco Bell on the way home. Ernie, concede the Taco Bell stop without complaint or comment, right? But Elaina would try to mitigate the impact by stopping at Taco Bell rather than calling ahead a takeout order with a $12 entr�e for each man/woman/child in the household from P.F. Changs.

Here's another example: Ernie goes to lunch with some colleagues for the first time and carefully orders what is in his budget to spend for lunch out. They order multiple appetizers (Ernie doesn't) and several drinks each (Ernie knows he doesn't have the budget for drinks, so he asks for water). They all order steaks but Ernie orders a hamburger per his budget. At the end of the meal, Ernie finds that the tradition is to split the tab equally and Ernie has no choice but to go along unless he wants to cause an uncomfortable situation. His tab is $51 more than his budget. Elaina concedes the overage without complaint - what else could Ernie do? (And Ernie knows not to go out with these colleagues again until he has room in his budget for a larger tab).

This is the very crux of the problem. You see complaints as a bad thing. This attitude is your dead weight.

Not only do you punish your wife for her complaints - but you fail to make any of your own!

By failing to respectfully raise complaints about fast food you mislead Elaina into a belief she is doing OK. She is
completely unaware that you have turned it into a secret grudge.

.


You have used the secret grudge to justify doing MORE and more IB stuff with marital funds. You have used the concept of separate money to make independent choices on what you wanted to spend marital funds on....( Married people do not own singular money!!! It is all 'OUR' money and Elaina gets a say.)

Ernie, you CAN do better than this. You are a smart man capable of raising simple complaints.

So this is the first time you have raised the fast food complaint on this thread and you have done a shocker of a job.

Complaints should be respectful REQUESTS in which lovebusters are avoided. Your complaint about the fast food is emotive and littered with DJ's and SD's.

If you had avoided secretiveness and raised it simply and respectfully the first time it bothered you, you would never have created such a mountain of resentment.

If you persist in this, she will have no choice but to separate.

She can't resolve the simple complaints of daily life with someone who refuses to even raise them. Creating secret grudges so you can spend joint cash without any PoJA, and commit what you consider justified IB.

In her shoes I'd be making the initial arrangements to separate.

I second Indiegirl's comment about why have you not respectfully complained instead of holding a grudge.

I would also this:

Ernie said: "I admit I was COMPLETELY unaware of how much money things were going to cost.. this caught me totally off guard and made me throw the brakes on, and they have been locked down since. "

Do you see how making independent decisions like this instead of voicing respectful complaints and POJA'ing have destroyed your marriage?

Your response, instead of respectfully complaining and asking to POJA was to a) start thinking she may have married you just for your money (huge DJ), b) since this was in the old days when you were still AOing, probably throw a huge AO, and finally c) hold an everlasting grudge by asserting control over her day to day life forever by forcing your version of financial control over her.

Do you see, Ernie, how that isn't working out for you?

One more comment about keeping secret grudges and making secret DJs about what you think Elaina's motives are:


If you dreamed that your good friend was talking negative things behind your back, when you wake would you be angry at your friend?

Of course not, right?

Well, being angry about what you ASSUME someone else's thoughts or motives are is similarly as foolish.


My husband would AO at me frequently over things he assumed that I was thinking, but that I didn't say. In our 25 years of marriage, his assumptions were NEVER, EVER correct - not even once.


You previously said talking smack about you behind your back is a HUGE lovebuster to you. Do you see the double standard of your behavior? You are talking smack about her behind her back to yourself and worse yet, going on to punish her for the smack you are talking about her.

Elaina said: "he has filled our 3 car garage, it's attic, bought an old shipping container(that he knew I was NOT happy about him getting) put it by our garage, filled that: now the entire yard is filling up."

So here Ernie is another double standard.

You don't want her "wasting" money on fast food but you are "wasting" money on car parts, filling up a 3 car garage, an attic and a yard with stuff you are paying for but not even using.

Ernie,

Did you change your mailing address for your paystubs to your home address?

Ernie,

Where are you? What have you been doing to change things for the better? This running away gives Elaina the message "I'm not here for you," which is the opposite of affection, which kills any chance for you to get admiration. I don't think you have much time left to turn this ship around, so it's time for you to decide: do according to loving principles which MB is, or not do them.

I agree.

Ernie, I just posted on Elaina's thread. You've both done a ton of work in the last month, and you CAN do this. But not if you quit now.

Ernie,
I've seen Elaina's update, where's yours?
What steps are you taking to implement MB on your part? What's your plan? What about those paystubs?

Cross posting to both of you in a very general manner.

1) Minimal - get Love Busters, He Wins, She Wins, and 5 Steps to Romantic Love.

Medium - Get some coaching sessions in addition to the above.

High Gear - Get the Online Program

2) Each of you work on eliminating YOUR OWN Love-busting behaviors.

Each of you work on meeting the other's Emotional needs.

(The 5 steps book includes communication sheets to help you communicate ENs and LBs - but some are rather simple; Don't AO/SD/DJ)

3) Last, but most importantly, start getting 20+ hours of UA time EACH WEEK.

At this point, with both of you in heavy conflict/withdrawal, attempting to tackle POJA is an exercise in futility.

People don't generally want to POJA with people whom they are not in love with.

Tackle UA, complete 1 and 2. Then come back to POJA.