How is it that we can see the good things in each other and even sometimes wonder how another’s spouse could possibly walk away from such a good person, yet all we really know about one another is that image which we each choose to project in this forum? <P>I would assume that everyone is relatively honest on this site and most of us only get to hear one side of each other’s marriages, yet we all feel this love and support coming out in these posts. Is this place where we all have decided to share and help one another just some kind of fantasy world or are our spouses really that lost that they couldn’t see what they were throwing away? I especially wonder about those spouse’s like mine who selfishly walked away without a fight, without commitment and without a clue to anyone else that there were problems.<P>Sometimes I wonder if my wife would even be able to recognize me by some of the things that I have said and opinions I have expressed out here. Isn’t that wrong? <P>Obviously things we write can be skewed one way or another, but I think we can generally tell a lot about one another by the things we say. I know a lot is lost when the personal day to day aspect isn’t involved, but I think most of us are good people and some may have the tendency to be more open in what we write than what we actually voice. I would probably put myself in this group. Of course, I could be wrong.<P>Any thoughts? <BR><P>------------------<BR>JH93

Hmmm. When I was miserable in my marriage, I used to wonder why we couldn't just be housemates. We're both good people (well, we were then -- some might say I'm not now), we get along with other people, are generally thoughtful, etc.<P>When I mentioned this to our counselor, she pointed out that expectations in a marriage are different, so it's a completely different game. I wanted to walk, and it wasn't because my husband didn't have good qualities; it was because our relationship was worse than not satisfying.<P>I stayed because of the kids. Now we are up to the housemates level that I wanted before -- most of the ways we were driving each other nuts have been aired, but we haven't started expecting much of each other again yet. So we get along great -- I just feel absolutely no romantic attraction to him. I'm hoping that will happen later.<P>Thanks for raising this. The love and support on these discussion boards is terrific.<P>Cottonwood

I am thinking that for the simple fact that many of us are here with questions and support for others proves that we are TRYING to do the right thing: save our marriages, or I guess at this point a lot of us are attempting to understand what went wrong after the fact. Good people try to do the right thing. They ponder in their hearts about their lives and the people that aer involved in their lives. Smart people accept criticism. So I think that whatever we "portray" ourselves to be, we are all basically good people. If we are being dishonest, we are only being dishonest with ourselves. I mean, what would it profit any of us to lie about ourselves?<P>True, many of us have a skewed way of thinking to some degree, including myself, and I have been lovingly set straight many times. That's why I am here: because I want to know what is right and what is wrong.<P>Would someone who was not quality enough of a person to care about saving a marriage or to search his soul for forgiveness or understanding even bother to be here? Would he waste precious time with something that he does not care about? Would people who did not care about marriage even desire to question others about their actions?<P>I think that we are all good people here--God does not consider one of us above any others.<P>My spouse--I was dumb enough to e-mail this site to him, hoping he would be motivated to participate and perhaps heal our marriage. I thought that he would read and understand.<P>The only reason he lurks is to gather what he thinks is ammunition against me and twist my words. (He is the WS) He tells me that I am lying, that I am giving you all a "monsoon of lies." (His words) I get tired of fighting with him over it, I would rather just let the issue of my posting here go than fight about it. That's why you don't see me here too often.<P>(What he needs to do is check his own ICQ files against what I have testified to, incidently, but he would never do that.)<P>Anyways, I for one would never have reason to tell stories here--for what? To get sympathy? (I don't need that, I am very happy, have nothing to feel sorry about.) To whine and complain? (What about? Crying never helped anything.) To destroy my husband? (I would never, I loved him, I loved the man I married and I would never want to destroy him--he has destoyed himself and I have done what I thought would help him restore himself--maybe in the wrong was, but I had the right intentions. He pushed me away.)<P>Well, I am wrapping up another 12 hour graveyard--getting kind of hazy here. But you got my two cents.

My spouse is just like your wife, has walked away without a fight, and has totally shocked everyone that knows him or us as a couple.<P> He is a good man and has always been kind and I wouldn't use this place to openly pull him down, because he hasn't been physically unfaithful to me and I honestly believe he is in some kind of crisis.<P>But none of us are saints and everyone of us that writes on this forum has contributed something to their separation whether conciously or unconsciously.<P>I think it is reassuring to know that other people are going through what we are going through and to be able to be totally honest without judgement. I don't think this is a fantasy world, it can't be because we're all real with real feelings....<P>Maybe our partners don't know what they're throwing away, but maybe that's because we haven't shown them??<P>nep<BR>

Hmmmm<P>I would hope anyone in here would be totally honest. That would be the only way to get advice that could be helpful.<P>I know that I caused the feelings in my wife that drove her away. Before I realized how badly she felt, she had already traded me for someone else and a new, exclusive circle of friends. In the few counselling sessions we had with Jennifer, I figured out what was wrong, and I fixed it. I think I did a great plan A, but there was never any chance.<P>I really think my wife beleives that she will be happier with her new circle of single friends. She is giving up a lot, not haggling over anything & basically giving me everything I want (so far). That sounds like a fog to me.<P>I certainly wouldn't want anyone to think I'm a saint (because I'm not) but I honestly believe the problems we had were insignificant in comparison to the wonderful life we had together. Nobody who knows us can believe this is happening, especially her family. I see a recurring theme in here of the departing/betraying spouse seekingtheir EN's outside the relationship before giving any clue to the spouse that there is a problem. (I mean a loud clue 'cause some of us didn't catch the subtle hints. I had to feel the brick myself )<P>My wife is a good person and I don't think she wants me to suffer. That's what bothers me. I think she is going to wake up one day and realize what a terrible mistake this is. Unfortuantely, I think it will be too late.<P>If we weren't good, honest people, I don't think we would be here. I have nothing to gain by making anyone believe that I'm perfect, the innocent victim and not responsible for part of the breakup of my marriage.<P>You're not wrong. KU grads almost never are <P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again

Jay,<P>I can only answer for myself, but I have always been totally honest . What purpose would it be to spend so much time in a place like this and lie?<P>I can think of a few times where there have been couples on here with two different stories, but think about it, men and women interpret the same event or comment in a different way, they probably both feel their way is the true interpretation.<P>There was someone once who came out after speaking bad of H, admitted she had not been so honest about her part in many things but by then she had enough friends that she received support and no one was really upset.<P>I think we all understand that each of us have went through something absolutely horrible. What we are all going thru on this Divorced side of the forum, is compared by many experts as something FAR WORSE than your spouse dying. We never receive closure. Its actually EASIER if our spouse had passed away. I believe thats true.<P>An affair is described by many who have committed one, and even by the Harley's, to something of an addiction. ANyone with drug or alcohol addiction can understand this concept too. Our WS get so wrapped up in how good it all feels they really don't think straight. All they can do is see one thing, that OP and how great they feel when they are with them. They will leave their family, job, house, friends and life to be with what they feel is their true love. TO me, those people never understood the true concept of our marriage vows.<P>There are others that were miserable for months and years and just never told us and they commit an exit affair. <P>Either way, deep down, it takes two to make a marriage and if we were totally perfect, we'd still play a tiny part in our spouse's unhappiness if they were willing to cheat. I don't feel even really any of us here deserve what we got or to say we were equally responsible, but we weren't as educated as we are now.<P>This is a wonderful place to make friends and get support and all who are honest are going to utilize this to the best possible potential. <P>I honestly believe that we all have become so much better thru all of this. I know some are still suffering and not wanting to accept the divorce. Some who have cheated still punish themselves when I really feel they deserve some happiness after the remorse they have felt.<P>But I truly have seen so many people grow into something totally different. Women who never worked w ho are not totally self sufficient. Men who had addictions and are now in recovery and above all, everyone here trying to learn what we did wrong, and what not to do the next time.<P>I guess I got on a rambling spree, you caught me in the middle of a lot going on in life today.<P>I hope you believe that this is really a safe place and I know in my own heart for the most part, I think almost everyone is probably totally 100 % brutally honest here.<P>We've had posts about "swallowing" and "shaving" on other sides of the forum. How much more brutally honest is that!!! <P>Well prayers and hugs, and hang in there@<BR>Dana<BR>

A friend of mine and I were actually talking about this site last night. He had said that one things with this site is that we can be compleatly honest here. Not too many of us know each other here personally. The people here are either going through a situation much like your own, or at least understand the pain and sometimes feelings of being alone that we all feel. This is why there seems to be such a closeness here. We all know hurt, and we all have gone through times of extreeme hurt when we just wanted someone there for us. This way there is someone there for us to talk to, and in return, we are there for them. There really is no reason to lie here. It wouldn't accomplish anything.<P>I, myself, have have been honest here. I have no need to hide behind a text of lies. I will say that with me at least, one of the best ways to get to know me is through my writting. Either by my journals, poetry, nonsense mind wanderings, or my letter and postings here. Granted that there is only that side that you are going to be seeing of me here. You won't see the part of me that most do. My daily interactions with others, how I treat the people around me, and that sense of who I am personally, but none the less, the part that you do see is real.<P>As for if I am a good person or not... I first of all think that is your own personal opinion of me. I will say that I try to be a good person. I try to be hard working, honest, dedicated, and kind amoung other things. I try to be the kind of person that I would want my son to learn from and grow from. I hope that some day he will look back upon me and think to himself that I am a good person and that I did try to do the very best for him. Now in playing the devil's advocate... I will say that even the most sick of people can call themselves good and even justify thier own actions to themselves in their mind. So with me purely saying that I try to be good, it is only a personal opinion. You must formulate your own personal decision on if I am good person or not by knowing me.<P>As for my marriage, I did not do it perfectly. I don't think that anyone can do marriage perfectly. We are human and do make mistakes. But I never gave up. I always tried to do what I thought was best. And with the mistakes that I did make, I did try to learn from them and grow from them. I can not change the past, but I can learn from it to enhance the future. <P>Well, I have gone on long enough.<P>Take care of yourselves and try to find the peace and happiness that you all deserve.<P>-Java<BR>

Jayhawk,<P>Dude, what an awesome question! If we are all such wonderful supportive people, then why didn't our spouses see that?<P>I am going to print this thread and ponder it a moment. I'll write back later.<P> CJ

Jayhawk,<P>First I am always as honest as I can be here. Whether that offends anyone or not. If it makes me look good or not. I am here for three things: 1) To learn 2) To share and 3) To maybe help someone else.<P>This board reminds me of my first year in college. I was lucky enough to live in a dorm that was "coed by room", meaning that on each floor, one room was guys and the next room girls. It was one of the best experiences in my life. While I have a sister, our age differences never allowed us to be real close. What I found in that dorm though, were about 10 sisters. Most of these people did not know me or anyone else on the floor. And having gone to a pretty big school we knew that once we left, we probably would not see each other very often. That led to some amazingly open conversations between guys and gals. For the first time I was really able to learn what girls were thinking and where they were coming from (and vice versa). That is how I feel about this place. People here are so honest - so open.<P>But it is not just the "guys locker-room" or the women's "beauty salon". There is a great mix of people here. Some in similar situations, some in totally different ones. But by hearing (reading) other's true thoughts, I think we all may be able to understand our spouse's a little more. Maybe someone here will post a message that is exactly what our spouse is thinking but is too scared to talk to us about.<P>Maybe, just maybe God is allowing our spouses to speak through the people posting these messages so that they can be heard? [kind of makes you think].<P>Whatever your faith is, if you even have one, I do believe you can agree we were all brought here for a reason, whatever that reason may be.<P>And I thank you all for your openess and your sharing. You have often been there to comfort and also to sometimes "call me out" on my thoughts. And I appreciate it so much.

Wow<BR>What an interesting thread. Everyone has a point. It also makes you look/think about what you are saying realize that you aren't perfect. While I am VERY new at this, I see that the people here do care, want others to learn from their mistakes. I see so much of my own situation here and how many withdrawls I've made from his LB that it is a miracle that he is even civil to me. <BR>I think that this is a very "safe" place to express your feelings without feeling that someone is going to reject you so there is no reason not to be honest. Plus you get very straight forward answers. Not just something you "want" to hear.

Jayhawk,<BR>I gave this question a lot of thought over this weekend--especially THIS weekend. If we all seem so thoughtful, kind, and supportive on this forum, why don't our spouses see that? Are we being fake here or what?<P>Here's what I think. Speaking only for myself, I am very honest on this forum--maybe a little too honest. But I feel like I will never learn and grow if I am not honest with others and with myself. I really, actually do possess the qualities of kindness, thoughtfulness, gentleness and encouragement, and in this forum, it is kind of easy to express these characteristics because there is actually not that much contact between us--just emails for a few minutes. But in "real life" I also have flaws that can drive a person to distraction. I snore like a banchee, I leave my laundry in a pile, and I'm overweight. I am affected by PMS, and I do indeed have problems and fears related to my past. I am demanding, I am extremely intelligent, and I am pretty inflexible. <P>Now, don't get me wrong, Jayhawk. This is not a "down on CJ" session. What I mean is, my spouse is around me in the day-to-day "real world" and he sees all of the traits that are not-so-good. Here, on the forum, I come across as a pretty nice woman (I hope), but when you listen to a person snore in your ear every night for 15 years, the irritation can sometimes "negate" the better qualities. <P>I think we are all who we really are here on this forum, but we have the benefit of not having to deal with the day-to-day junk. We are able to refine our personalities to reflect mostly the good qualities. I have to admit though, as I cruise through all this pain and stuff, I often wondered, "I am a wonderful person. I'm funny, cute, smart; I like football and I like sex. I'm thoughtful, romantic, and kind. Why can't he SEE that?"<P> CJ

People come here to learn. these are usually thinking people, one's that have enough T to override the reactions from the purely F (eeling) reactions.<P>a surprising number are on second marriages, or in mid life passages. There is a change going on in society, subtle, yet there, as a result of women's liberation. It won't be complete for many more generations, but it is the change from the H working only, functional household, to the dual income, equality household, which alot of us who grew up in the functional household, have a hard time relating to the new, equality based household.<P>It will pass, but the large number of divorces is an indirect result of this. <P>So why can they walk away so easily? much less economic dependence, much more social support for instant gratification, and the laziness from a very world dominate, wealthy position. Plus the women's activists that have been more verbal towards supporting women's rights at the expense of family rights.<P>Life is much more difficult in that way now, but very much the same in that the issues are the same, the out options are just much easier, and palatable.<P>Plus the faceless, boundless discussion forums of the internet, will replace the divorce groups of the past. same idea, less travel and more diversity, equal opportunity.<P>tom<BR>

I think that people can generally be honest here because there is little fear of retribution or judgement (for some). For me, its has often been more of a "working out" of sorts for myself. When I write about my feelings or concerns, I learn more about myself. It's an added benefit to have other's respond. I don't think that many of us here believe we are blameless; however, it (in my opnion) speaks volumes about the kind of people that we are that we seek out help for our problems and issues. We are not too proud to look for help, and often we engage in enlightening, controversial, and stimulating discussions. I for one was not happy in my marriage--a fact that I conveniently forgot the moment my husband left. All i felt was abandonment and fear. So I struggled like a crazy person to save what I thought I had lost. I was only when a good friend asked me if I was fighting for a principle or a person did I begin questioning the validity of what I was doing. The fact that I was working all by myself made me realize the fruitlessness of my struggle. Some here may disagree claiming that I should not give up on that "principle." That is not for anyone else to decide. But the fact that those people can share that opinion or suggestion or comfort is uplifting enough. Besides, even if someone was not being honest with others, we each could find some bit of truth in their fiction for ourselves.

WIFFT,<BR>You might be interested in a commentary called "The Changing Role of Fathers" featured on NPR. You can listen to it by going to <A HREF="http://www.npr.org" TARGET=_blank>www.npr.org</A> and typing in the name of the segment. It discusses some of the family dynamics shaping fatherhood today.<P>I think you'll find their discussion to be relatively well-balanced, unlike mine. Am I reading you right? Do you really think that keeping women economic prisoners will make families better? While you are on the NPR site, you might check out a couple of segments on the Taliban in Afghanistan. They too believe that equality for women destroys society. They believe it so much, they are willing to kill women who are employed or refuse to wear the veil. <P>to address the topic:<BR>I think the people who come to this site care a great deal about their marriages. There are lots of people, however, who don't prefer to do a whole lot of introspection. Perhaps our exes are those kinds of people. They aren't necessarily "evil", well most aren't. I do agree that our society, in general, makes it easier for people to chuck their marriages. I really can't point the finger in any one direction though. Somehow, I feel like both men and women have contributed equally to the downfall of the marriage institution.

Speaking of income inequality, trends show that its widening because educated well payed men are seeking mates of similar education and income:

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014...more-rich-marrying-one-another/?mod=e2fb

Actually, Dr. Harley says that the large number of divorces is the result of couples no longer being in love.

In the old, "inequality" days yes, women were economically "trapped," even if the marriage was bad. This is no longer the case (in the US), and love has become the only viable glue. That's why Dr. Harley works so hard to teach couples what creates love, and helps them avoid the behaviors which destroy love.

Hey, Jedi - thanks for digging up this 14 year old post! It's a good one.

This is a great question.

It's also a great example of two things: blindness and others' perspectives.

Blindness: sometimes with the best of intentions, we simply cannot see the things that others see in us. We may believe we are behaving beautifully in our marriages, but the bottom line is, "How does my spouse feel about how I am behaving?" If we refuse to listen and adjust, then we remain blind.

Others' perspectives: This is why it's so critical to ask our spouses, "how am I doing?" and check in with them, being willing to change our behavior. Perhaps they need something we don't consider important. Maybe our behavior is hurting them. Without their perspective, we remain blind.

I find it interesting that JayHawk called his wife 'selfish.' There is a Taker in all of us, and the goal is to satisfy both the Giver and the Taker at the same time in marriage. If he believed his wife was 'selfish' - perhaps he believed she should sacrifice her needs and stay in the marriage. This may be why she left: she realized that he was unwilling to meet her needs, as he stayed hidden behind accusations of selfishness. It's all speculation, of course...perhaps they are together and happy today? I hope so.

I approach this forum with honesty. I want to be helped, supported, and have my mistakes pointed out to me. I cannot see all sides of any issue, and it's GREAT to have others help me out!

And I do think that many people don't come here - because they don't really want to learn and grow, or have their flaws pointed out. My xH refused to come here, and he also refused to look at himself and his behavior - which saddened me greatly - but ultimately I am only responsible for my own actions and cannot change anyone else.

I do hope the OP has found a sense of peace. And I appreciate his question.

I agree that it's important to ask your spouse if everything is working well, and I in fact did that with my spouse on a regular basis. The response I received was everything is great. Since I found that a little hard to believe, I tried to dig deeper and said really there has to be something I do that drives you nuts. Response was no everything is wonderful and in fact it's better now than when we married 10 1/2 yrs ago! Well, he had an affair which clearly indicates otherwise. So my question is how can you handle a situation like this one? How do you know if your spouse is being truthful with you? I need to know so I don't make this mistake again in my next relationship. Thanks for the feedback!