This website has a list of exposure websites:

http://www.ihatecheaters.com/resources/

I'm curious as to how your parents managed this?

Where did you go for that 15-20 hours a week they spent alone together when you were very young? Who provided the childcare?

I know some people have a lot of extended family support, but I have none. I have no family other than my adult children, and most of them live nowhere near me. One lives an hour away, but he works two jobs and is busy starting a business. My MIL and FIL live nearby, but they will only babysit a few times a year, at most. My MIL actually doesn't believe my H and I should leave DD5 as much as we do, even when she doesn't have to baby sit. She thinks we're neglecting her by trying to go out on dates every week.

Right now, the cheapest daycare we've been able to find is a drop-in place that charges $8/hr. for one child. Even teens in our area charge $8-$10/hr. and everyone on sites like Sitter City and Care.com charge at least that much or more. It's ridiculously expensive to find childcare when you have no free options. We've tried doing the childcare exchange thing, but most people think we're crazy for trying to find so much time alone and aren't really open to exchanging more than occasionally.

The expectations are not unrealistic, writer. It's just that a minority of people live in a happy marriage. Some people don't actually know ANYBODY in a truly happy marriage.

It's two totally different cultures. Some people don't know anybody at all in the good marriage culture.

Here are the statistics, as given by Dr. Harley:
40% of marriages end in divorce
20% of marriages end in permanent separation - they do not even live together because they can't even get along
20% of marriages stay together for life but are unhappy - they basically live independent lives in the same house. Most of the marriages I personally know are like this. Most people that I know in person urge people to accept this as the "realistic" expectation for marriage. For some people I know it is an item of their religious faith that marriage is supposed to be like this to test us. They try to find something else to fulfill them. (Many of them I know are major busybodies - their own lives aren't happy, so they interfere in other people's.)

Only 20% of marriages stay together for life and are actually happy.

Almost nobody knows how to have a happy marriage.

I used to make the mistake of looking to marriages I knew. I'd see things they were doing and think "They are making that work somehow." Now I know the truth - they AREN'T making it work. They are miserable! And enough years have gone by that I have seen plenty of them end in divorce.

They are trying to put a good face on it, but they are miserable, and they have no idea that it can be better. They believe they are supposed to just find happiness from within even though they are miserable. They believe they are supposed to find contentment by eliminating their desires - this is a tenet of eastern religious philosophies, although most of the people I know who believe this are actually Christians.

Writer, in the good marriage culture, people do not live like the people in the other culture. They complain to their spouse about the problems; the complaints are expected and welcomed, and the problems are resolved so that they don't pile up. The problems are kept on the front burner until resolved. They don't try to find a way to live with it and be happy.

You are not being unrealistic, writer. It's just that the people you are talking to are in bad marriages themselves and don't know that it can be better and think you are supposed to try to live like this. A lot of people bow to this pressure and their lives are wrecked: they get sick, they become mentally ill, they attempt suicide. They try to force themselves to feel different and it DOESN'T WORK.

And it never will.

I struggle to believe that parents of special needs can have a great marriage without respite. They might say this to your face, but I have a child with autism and behind closed doors, believe me, most of the women in my disabled children's groups are in complete limbo - the marriage is ignored - and they drown themselves in the child's care. I don't live in the US - we have 1 to 2 respite days per WEEK allotted to us as part of disability benefits, because the government recognizes the divorce rate for us is well at 80% (and of that 20%, many are just still married for reasons other than love).

How to pay for childcare?

For us, it's a matter of downsizing. We both make decent wages (over $100k total) and live like we make minimum wage. Used clothing, old cars, discount food. It's a choice.

I wish the U.S. offered the sort of services available elsewhere in the world, but it simply doesn't.

My husband earns right around $50K, I don't work, and we live in an area with a very high cost of living. Downgrading would be hard, since rent is going to be at least half of our income here no matter where we live, and if we want to live in a neighborhood that's safe, it will be more (it currently is). And it seems that my H has been looking for a job in a cheaper area our entire marriage, but in 20 years, we haven't managed to make it happen. I'm trying to think it still can, but it's hard to believe in something you've been trying to do for so long and made absolutely no progress in.

Whatever happened to you planning on moving out of state with the help of your money you received?

Writer, I don't know the exact details of your background but it seems either a relocation or for you to work seems to be the only realistic answer.

Is it realistic to say that one has put 100% into something if they cannot find employment in a lower COL area in 20 YEARS...?

It seems, and in seeing the other posts, that your marriage has gotten so comfortable with drudging along that you guys choose to remain in this limbo.

I don't feel safe moving without some kind of employment set up for when we get there.

The fact is, my H has had the same job with the same company for 15 years. He's applied for thousands of positions over the years and never been hired for a single one. He's very competent at his job, has a decent amount of education (BA and recently, MBA), but his job searches never seem to lead to an offer of employment. I have no idea how to believe that would change if we moved to another area with no job lined up, hoping he'd find something once we got there. What if that doesn't happen? I didn't get THAT much of an inheritance.

Has he been to an employment counseling centre? If he has done 1000's of applications without a single offer, then he has fundamental problems in the resume/search/interview process.

No, but I don't know what to do about this. My H says he's trying. I know he sends out a lot of resumes because I see him do it. He networks with a lot of people on sites like Linkedin. He has registered with job placement agencies. He's applied for promotions within his current company. He went back to school and got his MBA.

I don't know why nothing ever happens in spite of all this. And I don't know what else to do.

I'm not opposed to going to work, but I've been home for 5 years, and spent most of the marriage raising 5 kids. My H was always at work, gone 12 hours a day including commute time, so I had to do everything for the kids, all while working part-time and going to school myself. My skills are a little rusty, and my earning potential isn't great. I was trying to stay home until DD5 starts 1st grade. Right now, she only goes to K for 3 hours a day, so I'd have to pay for a lot of daycare. Most of the jobs I would be qualified for right now don't pay very well.

They did it the same way both their parents did it and everyone else they knew. From when we were newborns we spent evenings/days and overnights with extended family, or people we considered to be extended family like my godmother and god-sisters. Then there was dance class and girl scouts and brownies and karate etc. Our parents were friends with other married couples who were not just our 'sitters' they were like cousins or friends. Probably a huge part of your problem is that your friends have a very odd lifestyle that isn't compatible with this.

How does a kid have friends without sleepovers or spending time with them? I'd be a bit perturbed if your daughter does not have any time away from you with her friends or at activities at all? Even when we just had a regular sitter it was nice for us to order pizza and be witout our parents. Don't you ever worry about her ability to socialise without your being there if she isn't getting any practice?

Given that divorce is a lot more expensive than babysitting, I would not hesitate to pay out for sitters if need be. But I think creating a supportive circle of adult and child friendships around you is so important. The way it worked when I was a child is that it wasn't really 'tit for tat' exchanges.

Our aunts and godmothers missed us and wanted to see us. Just as I need to get a fix of my nieces and nephews sometimes. Our little friends wanted us to come over. Or we wanted to go to the majorette classes our friends were going to. It just sort of happened organically because that's the kind of sociable, help-out and marital culture my parents' families lived in.

One way to start off maybe is to take your daughter to activities she might enjoy. She will make friends and you might too among the parents. Even if you don't you and your H can go get a cup of coffee or something while she's busy enjoying some time away from you.

You know how nice all of this sounds? I bet it would be amazing to have that kind of love and support. And it's so far removed from anything I've ever experienced in my own life.

Because of my age, I don't have any friends nearby with kids the same age as my DD5. And all of the activities a 5-year-old can do here require parents to stay with them while they do them - dance classes, girl scouts, library story time - pretty much every thing I can think of we would have to stay while she did them. There aren't many things 5-year-olds can do, here at least, that don't require parental supervision.

I do realize how much it sounds like I'm fighting against all of this. That's not my intention at all.

I want it to work. I've tried so hard to make it work. You have no idea how much time and energy I have put into trying to solve all of these problems. I have spent so much time trying to arrange for daycare, trying to drum up support for our UA time, planning dates, etc., etc. I've done everything I could to support my H going back to school and searching for a new job. But I can't force the people in my life to be on-board with any of it, and that includes my H.

I'm at the point where I simply have to find a way to be happy with my life and accept the things I can't change while working on the ones that I can. And I can only control ME. Which is what I'm trying to do.

He's been applying out of state also?

Except for promotional opportunities within his company, all of the jobs he is applying for are out-of-state. They're pretty much all over the place. We aren't being too picky, since most places would have a lower COL than So-Cal.

Alone.

We know.


We know, that, too - which is why he needs to be given the chance, by you, to rise to the occasion.


But that won't work, as I described above.


Nobody is suggesting that you try to control anybody besides yourself.

Do you have a local YMCA?

Any local church youth groups?

Our youngest does a youth group twice a week from after school until 5:30 - on Thursdays she used to go to a second until 7:30 (that backed off - it's a looooong day for a 7 year old).

We do have a YMCA, but their website isn't great and I'm not sure what they offer. They appear to offer preschool and after-school daycare, but no drop-in child care for dates and such. They do have some classes - mostly karate and swimming - but I'm not sure if those are things we would have to remain with her while she does. I think it's easier to find drop-off activities as they get older.

I'm agnostic, so no interest in joining a church.

We had a 4-hour date last night, FC time today (took DD5 to the natural history museum in L.A.), and are planning on dropping her off at the drop-in childcare place for a few hours tomorrow for more UA time. At this point, I don't think the amount of UA we're getting is a problem and we do have a few childcare options we utilize on a regular basis.

The problem I'm having is that the UA time doesn't seem to be doing much to fill my LB, and I'm not sure why. I always have a good time when we go out. There's lots of things we enjoy doing together. RC, which is one of my top EN's, is being met. So why don't I have passionate, romantic feelings for my H?

Likely because your $LB is so tanked that it's going to take time and consistency. I would also suggest that to invoke passion and/or excitement, you share exciting activities. The whole idea of sharing RC as an EN is that the good feelings of RC are partially attributed to those we share it with.


As far as the youth group thing; neither my wife or I attend any church services. I'm a rationalist, she's a little more deistic. We can both appreciate the youth fellowship and structure from the groups. But, I am completely honest about my beliefs with my children.

YMCA websites in general are rather messy. I dug around enough on our local site to find out that a family membership would run about $200/month for full access. So, we could drop off DD7 with the youth activities, and go play raquetball or something while there. If finances permit.