New here as of yesterday.

D-day was 4 years ago. WS had EA 9 mths with OW#1. I didn't know her. He lied through his teeth. Over the next year I found out more and more. He was silent or denied or sanitised it. But he told her he was SINGLE as he did to all of them! Emails were very flirtatious. They met after 9 months as she lives in his home country when he was there on a holiday (I joined him a month later). He travelled twice to see her staying in her town the second time. From the timing of their texts when they met (I don't know the content) one at midnight, the second at 3:00am seems as if he didn't sleep with her.

At the end of 12 months, I foolishly decided I knew everything. He swore I did. Our relationship got back to normal. It was always a great relationship. He was ultra-caring and me too, we were never apart, had great fun and lots of sex. I was SO shocked on D-day.

But 18 months after D-day I felt uneasy and thought I probably hadn't got all the truth. I snooped his emails back much further as he stupidly kept them. I also looked at his phone bills going back.

Below is what I have found out gradually for the past 18 months. ALL that time as I have revealed what I found he has been SILENT or DENIED it or TWISTED it. He offered two things only which I had told him often I thought was the case anyway. It wasn't new information.

So now all up it's 4 years since D-day.

What I found:
OMG, there were more women. I don't know them. Most are from his country and he saw them on his holiday. When I joined him later we had a 'romantic' one month holiday which was amazing until the last day when I found out about OW#1. They had been texting every day through our 'romantic' holiday. I only saw a few, not lovey-dovey but very affectionate. Definitely EA.

- When he visited his country he also chased down a girl from university he had fancied and asked out years before but she went out with his friend instead. He mentioned it once in our early days but didn't say he was in contact with her. He emailed her occasionally over 5 years and you could tell he still had a thing for her. He emailed to say he was coming back to his country . She said, "I get depression but having sex with a young man helps. If you are not too scared after that, come and let's party!" !!!!! He met her. Drove to her town and he said they went out with another friend of theirs from univ on a big drinking night and all of them stayed at the friend's house that night. That is true (from an email). But, did he sleep with her since they were under the same roof? He says not. Even if not, he was still seeking out a woman he had a thing for while 'deeply in love' with me.

- On his visit to his country, he also met an ex-mistress he had in his last relationship (with the mother of his son)!!! Yeah, serial. They used to go to her country cottage for a night and he would tell his partner he was on a work trip. He had been emailing her occasionally too. She told him in an email she was still in love with him. When he met her he drove her to their old love nest as she was going for a holiday there. He says she asked him to stay over but he didn't.

- He also met an ex-colleague twice and they texted quite a bit during his holiday. I got them impression from her emails she was a bit sweet on him. She has a bad marriage. He had been emailing her as well secretly.

- In the country where we live, he also contacted a woman from his country who was holidaying here on her travel blog. They went out at least twice. She talked of a relationship! One of the 2 things he ever offered was that they kissed, once at the bar when she asked him to prove he was a man!! and a second time when he dropped her to her hostel and they said goodnight. I guessed that anyway from what she said in her email when she talked about him being irresistible and a possible relationship with him! They emailed sporadically when she went back home. (The second thing he offered was that he stayed at OW#1's town the second time but I had accused him of that for months anyway.)

- There are 2 other women who he was texting and possibly meeting in this country where we live. But I can't find out anything about them short of phoning them and asking them. It was texts (at night) over a few weeks each time including texts at for example 7.00pm precisely as if he was picking them up for a date. When we dated he would get there early and then text me PRECISELY on the hour. So he may have met them. I was away sometimes and he worked late sometimes.

He NEVER told me about all these women he was emailing. In fact he would complain that no one from his home country ever emailed him!!!

Funny the next year we went back to his country but I did not meet ANY of those women though I asked. What a fool I am.

4 years ago on D-day I told him the truth was the ONLY place I could start from and no matter what had happened I felt our wonderful relationship was capable of withstanding it though I couldn't guarantee it 100%. I'm HONEST. I begged him not to let more come out down the track as it would destroy me and to discuss it openly and honestly and that we also had to get to the bottom of why he did it. He claimed he was deeply in love with me all that time and I said he needed to rethink his definition of love.

I have got ZILCH. It has been 4 years of torture. I have begged and pleaded with him not to be SILENT, to tell me what happened and not let me keep finding out more, to DISCUSS it and to ask me how I am doing and that he also has to work out why he did it so that he won't do it again. All he ever said about that was that he must have liked the attention!

He has not brought it up ONCE and remains steadfastly silent. I have been like the proverbial frog in the boiling water, always thinking there was no more, yet always finding out more and always thinking he would finally start talking about it.

He has sat there and watch me go through the intense pain. He did stop contact with all of them immediately. However 3 years after D-day I did a test on him. I sent him a teasing text from another number pretending I was an ex from the past and would he like to meet me for a drink. He replied immediately, "Who's that". I replied, "You'll know when we meet". He replied, "I'm married and married men don't do that. Sorry."
A psychologist friend said it because he put it in the third person, it suggested that he would possibly have liked to meet her.

Anyway what's worse is the next day I asked had he heard from any exes in the past year. He looked me straight in the eye and said, "No!". I lost it and yelled, "You did, yesterday. New lies now as well as old." My children were arriving home from college for Christmas (2012). I had a beautiful time with them and I only spoke to him when I had to for appearances.

I have been stripped of my self-respect and dignity. I feel humiliated and I feel like a pathetic fool for having stayed.

I think I have stayed because I had a life-threatening illness a few years ago and he looked after me beautifully as he always does ironically. If it comes back I have literally no one else who would look after me and I wouldn't want to burden my kids as they are far away leading their own lives.

Also I have been the main breadwinner the past couple of years because his industry had a big downturn. He is a hard worker. So I have had to use part of my savings and there isn't much left. I'm not young. We rent. I'm hoping now that he has a decent job I can build up my savings again. He has no savings. If I leave I will get nothing from him as he has nothing, only his job.

I'm not even sure why I am posting. It is just showing all of you what a fool I am. Sometimes I think he is a cruel and arrogant sociopath without empathy. He fits the bill because he is also a charmer, especially with the ladies. I don't believe he has any empathy. If he did how could he watch me, 'the love of his life' suffer like this.

When I met him I was a happy-go-lucky, kind, cheerful and grounded person with a great job and 3 great kids almost grown. And the life and soul of the party with a fun-filled social life, hobbies etc. That is what I have been all my life actually. He told me I was so easy to be with, I was the most amazing and intelligent woman he ever met and that he wanted to be with me forever blah blah blah blah blah!

Now I'm just an emotional wreck and I just want to hide away and I get through each day just feeling numb. I can't believe I allowed him to reduce me to this.

This is too long for most posters to read. It had to be because he did so much. Who thinks he went PA with any of these? I know, possibly all of them I guess.

I don't even know why I'm posting this.

Hi, Danu. Welcome to MB.

A couple of questions:
First M for both?
How many years married?
You mentioned kids, but not sure if these are your kids together? Are they? How many and ages?

Were any of these affairs ever exposed to anyone and if so who?

Actually this is VERY common for someone who is maintaining a secret second life.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

Dr Harley only recommends Plan A for 2-3 weeks, otherwise you risk your health and mental well-being. Women can have nervous breakdowns and long term consequences to their immune system etc because of the stress of living with a WH.

In your case, unless your WH is willing to make radical changes NOW to affair-proof and protect you and your M, you should separate.

And these radical changes would include:

No overnights apart from each other (no traveling without you)
100% transparency (allowing you access to his phone/email etc)
Spending 20-25 hrs a week UA time with you
EPs to avoid another affair (no opposite sex friends, etc)
ETC

In addition I would polygraph him and he would need to send NC letters to all of these women and change all of his contact information so that they cannot contact him anymore.

The point with a cheater like this one is not to rely on his willpower, but rather to build a lifestyle where he will not be tested and you two are spending most of your free time together rebuilding your M.

I have spoken personally to Dr Harley about serial cheating and also about the SSL (secret second life).

I am not going to lie to you, you have an uphill climb to battle with this type of WS. They are addicted to the CHEATING vs the oops, I let someone meet some of my ENs and have fallen in love type of WS.

Even if he commits to doing everything that you ask of him, this type of cheater is very susceptible to backsliding and has trouble letting go of their SSL.

Sorry

Thanks so much SusieQ. To answer your questions:
2nd M for both, M 6 years, no kids together, me x3, him x1

I didn't expose him to anyone except OW #1. She was very sweet, said she couldn't believe it, they didn't sleep together, apologised to me. I replied it wasn't her fault as he said he was single. She wrote a piece on her blog about men who do this and how I had contacted her and how she would like to meet me one day!
She was keen on him though prior to that from her emails & texts. Also after they met she wrote a piece on about him on her blog! describing their history and how she was so glad they met and had a chance to get to know each other much better.
I always thought they didn't sleep together because she knew no relationship was possible as he lived far away. She did ask him a few times in her emails would he ever move back and he said no. She sounds like someone who wouldn't sleep with someone given all that. I wouldn't. Too painful to escalate it to physical and then have to say goodbye the next day.

What you say fits though I know from monitoring I'm pretty sure he has given up his secret life. Believe me by now I am a very accomplished snoop.

We have done all the radical changes you describe. We are never apart and never away overnight, spend heaps of time together etc.
I didn't think to make him write a NC email to them. Good idea but none of them have contacted him except the ex-mistress 2 years ago so probably no point now.
It seems he's nowhere near the most important RADICAL change of all - HONESTY and admitting it for what it was and not trying to sanitise it. Or else he is just silent. Tonight he said he wasn't trying to start a relationship with his old love flame. I told him he was insulting me because I knew that - she lives on a different continent and rejected him a long time ago. How could he. Yet I said, he still couldn't resist seeing her, there was still an attraction there. He admitted it finally when I said did he really think any spouse would be happy with him seeking someone like that out, someone he had fancied long ago and kept emailing every year saying she probably didn't want to email him any more but he would like her to. Almost sounds lovesick TBH.
He needs to say those things freely and admit to them instead of have me take 15 mins to put the words in his mouth and drag it out of him when his first answer is a ridiculous "There's no point answering because you won't believe me!" He needs to OWN it and say how it was honestly.

So I;m figuring I will have to divorce him as I am so sick of his reaction and therefore lack of true remorse or helping me to heal. No honesty or communication = no marriage. I have already given him too much time. Wish I found this site earlier as I didn't do many things I should have.

Susceptible to backsliding? Yes I agree. I am a realist. And I don't know how he has coped with his secret life having come to an end so abruptly. Afterwards he used to single out a woman and keep glancing at her when we were out for months until I told him it was insulting. He said he knew he was doing it but didn't think it was 'that bad'. Ugh! He doesn't do it any more but he hadn't done it before D-day. I think it was a reaction to his secret life having stopped.

Also he had a couple of drinks alone one night with a spunky friend of mine about 6 months ago before I joined them as I was running late. The 3 of us had a great night. When he and I got home he said 3 times in 1.5 hours what a great night it was with her and he was animated in a way which is unusual as he's very low key. Later he gazed out the window and said thoughtfully she had the rare quality of being a great listener. I jokingly asked was I a good listener and he said very bluntly "No" and his demeanour changed to serious. I asked again as I was shocked - I'm always listening to his troubles, worries etc. But he gave another very blunt "No". I then became upset. He later insisted that he meant the night was great because I was more affectionate with him than usual. I don't believe it as he made no such reference when he was saying about the great night - he only referred to it in the context of my friend.
He also said he meant I wasn't a good listener when we are discussing our problem and his demeanour changed because that made him sad. I replied that he usually answered me with silence - I'm talking 10 minute silences, or he tries to sanitise and deny that what he did meant anything or his favourite, "It wasn't like that!". So I don't believe that explanation either. I think he simply enjoyed having a drink with a spunky lady on his own before I arrived as it would have reminded him of his previous secret life which probably animated him in the same way. He still to this day insists I got it wrong. What do you think?
My 22 year old son said when I asked his opinion said "Mum, he was back pedalling furiously and he's very good at putting a different light on everything he did with those women! My son asked me about it now and then as he saw I was unusually pale and quiet a lot and not my normal cheerful bubbly self. I told him bits and pieces of it now and then.

WS had 10 secret women friends,. . . TEN. . . none of who was a plain old friend. In all cases they either fancied/were in love with him/wanted a relationship or he did. None of those 'friendships' had integrity in the context that he was married. With 10 of them He lied to all of them too by pretending he was single. He even lied to them about where he was going to meet me at the airport. He told OW#1 he was going to a different city 100km away. I'm not sure why. it seems to me like an illness TBH combined with selfishness combined with a pathological liar - at least when it comes to other women.

I don't think he has any empathy at all. Otherwise he couldn't watch me in the emotional pain he knows I'm in. Swears he loves me and wants to be with me. Increasingly I'm feeling I do not want to be with a man like him and he has wasted 6 years of my life.

Thanks for listening and I hope I have answered your questions. :-)

Regardless of whether you decide to separate or D, this behavior needs to be exposed. Not only to both of your families, children, close friends, but also to these OW's H if any of them were married.

If you read through the materials on the site, read SAA or listen to Dr Harley's radio show, then you would know this is the first thing he would tell you to do. Not only will it give you support, but the more people that know will help keep your WH accountable.

Keeping this behavior secret does nothing except serve to enable and embolden your WH.

Dr Harley has said that a WH that doesn't come to you on bended knee, hat in hand, is not serious.

Please keep in mind that often what is motivation for a WS to clean up their act and really commit to making changes is children and or a decent history of a good marital relationship before the infidelity. It doesn't sound like you have either of these present.

Keeping that mind and also the fact that he is still gaslighting you and isn't showing empathy or remorse for the pain he has caused you, I would encourage you to start plans to separate now.

Dr. Harley's methods can be used to build great marriages but both spouses must be willing to change.

Your husband likes to cheat. He will probably be unwilling to change and commit to a loving marriage.

You read his e-mails? I'm guessing he used the same lines and approach on all of his victims, right? This guy is a snake, and he is not only very dangerous to you but to women and marriages wherever he slithers.

I would expose him far and wide so others in his circle do not become his next victim.

If he willing to hop on board the MB program, then maybe your marriage can be salvaged, as Dr. Harley has recovered marriages with serial cheaters. But radical changes would be in order.

Your husband must take a polygraph so you can get the whole truth. His unwillingness to come clean with everything is a deal breaker.

Yes it does enable. Trouble is it all happened 4 years ago and I know for sure (yep) there have been no OW since.
So I would have to say he engaged with other women behind my back 4 years ago and has been lying to me about it ever since.
Wish I did it at the time since the fact that he has been 'good' since (because they would ask) makes its sound lamer somehow.

It doesn't matter. You should still expose it.


There is absolutely no reason to keep this a secret for your WH. You are an enabler if you do so. Sorry if that's harsh....

It's not harsh at all SusieQ - harsh advice is usually good!
Though the affair(s) stopped, he lied to me about it for the next 4 years. In some ways the lying about it for so long was worse than the original affair(s)!
Even a month ago I was told as a hundred times before, "You know everything now", when I presented him with some new information.
As always, it was information I gleaned MYSELF. None of it ever came from him. I reread some of his old emails to the univ girl and I saw from it that he was attracted to her for years and had even sent love letters to her when she moved to a different country in the 1990s. So he looks her up in 2009 to meet her? She wasn't 'just a friend'.
Don't forget most of it is in his language which I don't understand so these were older emails I revisited that I hadn't translated properly.

His lying for 4 years I feel should be a big part of the exposure because that is in the present, not the past.

Plan A & B seem to apply to affairs that are ongoing.
So instead of doing Plan B to get him to end an affair, I do it to get him to tell the truth?
Unfortunately there may not be much more to tell as I found out so much and became a VERY good snoop.
Then again, I wasn't there. I think that no WS in the history of mankind has ever told BS 100% truth.
Plan B would sure give him a shock. I must seem like a doormat to him in many ways having stayed.

Hi Jedi,
He certainly isn't willing to change and become a truth-teller - that's for sure. He hasn't cheated in 4 years. I know for sure due to monitoring and we are never apart and have never been apart overnight since. He even drives from his work to mine to meet me for lunch every day.

If he was up to something he would have to be pretty good - he would basically have the opportunity between 9:00 - 11.30am & 1.00 to 4:30pm Mon- Fri only!
That said, should I get a Keylogger anyway? I hadn't though of it until I saw it on here.

So I do think he has been faithful but if I can't trust him because of all the lying then it's pretty useless anyway.

I told him the other night he would have done me a favour to leave 4 years ago instead of staying and lying about it which has caused me unparalleled stress. It has kept me vigilant too which is no way to live.

Maybe he would have left if OW lived in our country. Then again he could have gone back to his own country except he doesn't like it and always says he would never go back. As you can see from my first post, he certainly seems to like the ladies from there though, shucks!

Also is there any point contacting any of the other women now? To tell them he wasn't single and about all the other women he was in contact with? And to end by asking did they sleep with him? Maybe I would get more truth that way to hang him with if we embark on the MB program and he still keeps up the lies.

OW#1 was very angry about it and I also told her there were others like herself whom he fooled. So maybe they would all tell me the truth for that reason.

None of them was even an OW because each thought he was single. They didn't know of each other either and I must say from his texts/emails, he was quite the charmer and very adept at giving each the impression she was the only woman who ever existed!
I feel I might get somewhere at last one way or another by having found MB.

I disagree. Many of the betrayed spouses on here insist that their cheating spouse take a polygraph examination and usually hours before the lie detector test, the wayward spills their guts.

Dr. Harley encourages the use of polygraphs to help the betrayed spouse feel safe.

He would need to be honest if you want to follow the MB program to recover from his affairs and have a romantic marriage.
You can read Dr. Harley's articles about "Radical Honesty" by clicking on "Articles" on the MB main website. It is a requirement for a loving marriage.