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The way I understand SF, you were meeting his need as well as any wife could. He didn't receive it as SF because he's got a contrast between what the porn females will do versus what you will do as far as sexual acts go. SF need isn't a need for oral or other or kink, it is the coming together for both spouses to share not just physical pleasure, but emotional pleasure. He's coercing you to do things for his physical pleasure at the expense of your emotional pain.

I can guarantee you that the more you do the acts he says will make him fall in love with you, the more disrespectful and uncaring to you he will become. You can't get him to fall in love with you by just doing whatever he wants you to do.


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Originally Posted By: Bluebird51
I just read Melody's thread on the importance of UA where it talks about meeting the need for SF.

Now I am confused again. I didn't meet H's need for SF, so gradually affection, conversation and RC tailed off (from him to me).

What if his only intimate need is SF? This is what he told me. That means I could never win him any other way....


We are each responsible for getting our own needs met. If a woman needs affection then it is in her interest to create a relaxed environment where she can get it. If his need is sex, then he must create an environment of love and care for her so she can enter into SF enthusiastically and passionately rather than just feeling like 'I gotta'.

All needs have to be met enthusiastically under PoJA. If something is blocking our enthusiasm, we helpfully tell our spouse what it they can do what is required to have their need met. If you have SF in this environment you'll just feel used and will develop an aversion to sex. Not good for him!

I think it's possible he's making the common 'why aren't you being more like me' mistake. His sex drive works without affection, why doesn't yours? He showed you affection before you married, proved his love by marrying you - do you want him to show it every single day! Sheesh!

His sex drive is fuelled by testosterone. He doesn't need to feel valued or admired or sexy to feel desire. He doesn't need to feel bonded. His sex drive comes up with the sun.

If you really loved him, you'd behave like a testosterone driven male. You'd initiate sex without the need for any emotional closeness and would consider it the be all and all of the bonding process. Saves time y'see.

There's value to his preoccupation with sex. Sex IS pretty great. There's also value to what you would like to add. That's the stuff that makes the SF meaningful. Together you have the recipe, you just need to add it together.

If you followed MB you'd have a very passionate sex life and this is what you should sell it to him on. Do snoop for porn use, though. If the contrast effect is in place you'll never live up to it.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted By: Bluebird51
My first marriage was the exact opposite. My deceased H had no interest in sex , so I could never win him over that way!!!

No wonder I'm a mess.
You're not a mess. You're normal. He is the one who is a mess.

Speaking as a well past middle age adult male, I can tell you from experience that the male sex drive tapers down with age. There is a great temptation to fight this trend by becoming hyper-sex oriented, using porn or whatever, in an attempt recapture something that is perceived to be lost. It is a very stupid thing to do. In my opinion, age frees a man to experience the real joy that love and bonding to your spouse can bring. It's something that women always knew, but men are too hormone-driven to appreciate until they grow up.

I think with your husband, it is going to come to a choice. He either can have the reality with you, or the fantasy of porn and his exaggerated self delusions of his extraordinary sexual prowess. There is no room for middle ground here.


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Everyone thanks again.

Mr Eureka:

I wish my H felt as you do and could just appreciate the fact that we found one another again after decades apart -- and are still healthy enough to enjoy one another, provide companionship into old age etc... As many times as I've spoken to him about this, he doesn't seem to get it. When I tell him that at our ages anything could happen, he blows me off as being a glass half empty person -- and yet, last year I had to rush him to the hospital with Afib which he'd been having for over a week without ever telling me. He could have had a stroke and died.

He seems obsessed with getting his SF needs met in the way HE WANTS, and doesn't seem to understand that he's hurting me and making me feel that he doesn't cherish me.

And he has really broken down my love for him in a way I never thought would happen.

He thinks we have no chemistry or passion because I'm not doing SF as often or in the ways he wants. It's as if he doesn't see into my heart at all, or doesn't want to.

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How is that keylogger search coming along, Bluebird?


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Originally Posted By: Bluebird51

He thinks we have no chemistry or passion because I'm not doing SF as often or in the ways he wants. It's as if he doesn't see into my heart at all, or doesn't want to.


You are getting some great advice here. I just wanted to say that it looks as if you are dealing with someone that has been going down the wrong track for a very long time. Emotional disconnection/separating FS from passion is a coping mechanism that he has learned in his (bad) marriage.

When you were dating, he probably saw you as someone that could help him find joy; you took him back to the way things were before he emotionally disconnected from the world. Unfortunately, habits are very hard to change and marriage, even to you, probably brought too many triggers.

Can you find a way to sell him on the benefits of a romantic marriage? What were the things he liked to do with you before he shut down? As Mr Eureka points out, the male sex drive tapers off with age. This may terrify him. Allowing you to meet other emotional needs will be a way to compensate for that. You need to present everything in a positive light; the benefits to him. Take care that there is no implied criticism.


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Originally Posted By: Bluebird51
He thinks we have no chemistry or passion because I'm not doing SF as often or in the ways he wants. It's as if he doesn't see into my heart at all, or doesn't want to.
You have received some excellent advice in the thread. Much of it has been about trying to understand your husband and what your responses should be. However, you have just touched on the real issue in what you said here. He is not listening to you and is demonstrating a remarkable lack of care. The SF issues are really just a backdrop to this main issue - the supremely selfish and uncaring mindset he is demonstrating. Even if you could wave a magic wand and become the porn queen of his dreams, this basic issue would remain.


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He is not listening to you and is demonstrating a remarkable lack of care. The SF issues are really just a backdrop to this main issue - the supremely selfish and uncaring mindset he is demonstrating. Even if you could wave a magic wand and become the porn queen of his dreams, this basic issue would remain.

This is what I feel as well. That even if I did everything he wants he would find another reason to disconnect.

This is the way he's lived all his life -- like the only child he was who taught himself to need no one. It's sad really and my heart breaks for him.

I'm sourcing out keyloggers right now and trying to find the simplest one.

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Wow. So sorry for what your going through.

Your hubby needs a serious wake up call. Porn is destructive! Period. End of story. I used to have a habit of porn and turned it around. I thought like your husband did. "Ahh its no big deal, I'm not hurting anyone" but the reality is your hurting yourself! Your train your responses to it.. And when the response is not the same as porn.. Its frusterating so you go back to porn. Vicious cycle.

For the keylogger suggestion I used desktopshark. It was cheaper than spectropro but possibly easier to find (depends on how savy your hubby is with computers). You can also buy cell software too from them and check all your logs from any pc with a login. You can even buy a piece of hardware to plug into the machine. The software is sometimes caught by spyware tools so you will have to allow it in the settings exceptions. It also shows up in the running processes. (When you press ctrl/alt/del ) as explore.exe (looks like explorer.exe which is your windows taskbar etc) and it makes a hidden folder on the C: called DS that you can find if you set your folders to show hidden files at the C: level.

You deserve to be loved... Not used like a blowup doll. Get the goods with some snooping tools and come back here with the results for us to aid you in the next steps.. Do not confront. Just gather info.

MNG

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Thank you for the advice on keyloggers. I'll come back and post on results.

Having said that, I don't think he'll be open to anything I have to say -- ie asking him to stop. He'll come back at me as he has before saying he can't trust me to change and meet his SF needs.

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Well from my perspective.. He did love you at one time or you wouldn't have gotten married. His view is skewed from his porn use. If he is requesting OE (as some put it) maybe he is hiding the fact he might be gay and using you as a cover? ... I pray its not true, but with such insistance on OE and you appaarently not meeting this "act" of his... Its a red flag to me that speaks volumes about his care for you and your concerns. (I don't mean to offend if you are offended by this thought. My appologies if the thought offends you)

There's all sorts of stuff I wanted to do when porn was overstimulating me (ultimately that's what it does is overstimulate your senses. Its like someone who tries a harsh drug for the first time and likes it, you build a tolerance to its effects and need more and more to achieve the same response) But the reality is once you stop bombarding your brain with the overstimulation and over sexing of what your not getting at home you begin to appreciate the closeness and the journey that making love brings. Rather than being fixated on the outcome and to rush to the finish line. I pray your hubbys heart softens to your emotional needs and finds a balanced outcome that you both find rewarding in the department of SF.

MNG

P.s. You have found the best place possible to guide you in this healing process. One way or the other.

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It's ok, no offense taken. To be fair to H, he never pressed me on the OE stuff after I said no. He made a few suggestions, but dropped it because he knew it wasn't going to happen. Apparently he watched porn and indulged in these activities with his former wife (before she lost interest in sex).So I guess I'm also being compared to his previous marriage (s).

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Hi bluebird -

Here's my take, along with all the great advice you've been given.

I suggest you consider a less direct approach than confronting your husband about porn. You know he uses it. He has admitted it - he's not keeping it a secret (unless I missed something in your thread.) I don't think installing spyware to prove your H is doing something you already know he is doing is going to help your marriage. More likely it is simply going to push him further away.

How about reading, understanding and implementing Harley's approach to building strong, satisfying marriages - from the ground up? I hear that your husband is making you feel unloved and judged and otherwise 'not good enough.' I get it that you are tired of feeling this way (who can blame you?) but I also hear you don't want to lose this relationship.

I think there are other ways of getting what you... and your husband want from your marriage.

First, really dig in to Harley. Read His Needs, Her Needs and Love Busters. Take notes focus on understanding *yourself* and what *you* need but also on what *you* are failing to do in your marriage. You may be surprised to realize you are engaging in lovebusters and neglecting emotional needs (besides SF) and by doing so you are weakening your marriage without even being aware of it which is *awesome* because with that knowledge you have new ways of changing and making things better.

Then, when you have the big picture in mind, what about having another frank conversation with your H about your *mutual* dissatisfaction in your marriage and what you can both do to remedy it? You both want the same thing to feel loved and valued. Try working on the problem *together*.

The conversation might go like this

H, youve been distant lately and I get the feeling you are unsatisfied with certain aspects of our marriage. I dont want you to feel unsatisfied. Im also feeling pretty left out and hurt. I dont like the direction I think our marriage is going. Lets turn things around.

Rather than a helpless victim you should take the position of an equal partner in your marriage someone of great value, someone who is capable of real change. You can do things. You can make a difference. If you assume the posture of a person who cant live up to someone elses expectations that is how they will see you.

After you open the door your H may say Well Ive told you I want more and better sex to which youd respond I truly want you to feel amazingly satisfied with our sex life. Personally, *I* want the satisfaction of knowing I fulfill you. I truly believe we can get there, if we work together on it. I dont know what the specifics will be they may end up being different than either one of us are imagining but I totally believe we can get there.

This is where you start negotiating. Let him specify exactly what sexual satisfaction would look like for him. Take notes. Become an expert. Really know, deeply know what he wants not just the behaviors he wants but the why. Try not to feel threatened by anything he says. Dont judge. Just gather information and stay open minded. What he is describing may seem out of reach but remember it also doesnt necessarily have to be the end point. He will likely be satisfied with something different than he is imagining, an end point that is within your reach. On the other hand, your reach may be further than you now believe. Under better conditions you may feel like doing more than you do currently. Either way, for now just gather info.

Then it is your turn. Let him know what you think it will take for you to feel loved and cared for in your marriage. As a motivator, let him in on the secret that he is most likely to get what he wants in marriage from a wife who feels amazingly secure, loved and valued. If he is willing to extend himself in meeting your ENs you are more likely to have the great sex life he is hoping for. Its not coercion it is just a fact. Then tell him in very specific terms what it would take for you to feel that way.

This is when you address the porn tell him you think that porn may be contributing to your seeming sexual incompatibility. Porn may be artificially pushing his sexual appetite out of your reach and, ironically, leaving him feeling *less* satisfied with sex rather than more. Suggest porn may be contributing to both of your unhappiness.

Approach him as an equal, an adult. Dont scold or judge. Ask him to do an experiment 3 months, no porn or masturbation while you both put all your efforts in to your marriage, including (but not limited to) amazing sex. After three months you can re-evaluate things. This will be a sacrifice for him. He may be afraid to go without his needs being met. Reassure him that you will not leave him out in the cold. Youre working on this together.

What do you think of this approach? Maybe it wont work. Maybe, as some have suggested, your H is not marriage material. If not, then you probably are better off alone than with an insensitive, selfish jerk. But based on what Ive read there may be reason to hope your H isnt some pathologic A-hole. He might just be a guy who needs some education, guidance and motivation without judgment and coercion.

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A couple caveats I wanted to clarify -

You should strive to understand and meet your husband's ENs - but you should not tolerate abuse nor engage in sex acts you find unpleasant.

Installing spyware to prove your H is using porn may not be super helpful. But, if your H is involved in an affair (online or otherwise) you do need to know because your approach to marriage building will need to be much different in the case of an affair.

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A critical element of marital recovery is confronting problems head on in a respectful manner. A spouse cannot change his/her behavior if they do not know the exact problem. Beating around the bush or sweeping problems under the rug is not a MB practice, it is the practice of conflict avoiders.
Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley in Requirements for Recovery
"Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance."


The issue of porn should be addressed head on and kept on the front burner until it is resolved. That is Dr Harley's approach to marital problems.

And almost every person on this thread has suggested to this poster that she install a keylogger on his computer. That is very standard advice when a spouse is looking at porn and/or cheating. I am sure you know that Dr Harley is an advocate of snooping? Snooping does not "push" a spouse away. It helps a BS understand the depth of the problem and hold her spouse accountable. A keylogger is kept secret so it couldnt' possibly have the effect of pushing a spouse away.

Quote:
He may be afraid to go without his needs being met.


I would add that porn is not an emotional need. SF is an emotional need. It should be made clear by her that porn needs to be eliminated entirely from their marriage because it makes her unhappy. He should not commit to make her happy on a 3 month "trial" basis, but forever. If he won't do that, then she needs to consider separation.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: BWS71

Installing spyware to prove your H is using porn may not be super helpful. But, if your H is involved in an affair (online or otherwise) you do need to know because your approach to marriage building will need to be much different in the case of an affair.


Installing a keylogger is very helpful. Can you explain the reasons why?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I want to make clear that H wasn't asking for specific sex acts, just more of it and more variety, more "passion" (even though I felt passion).

What has dampened my enthusiasm is knowing he views porn, and that he may be getting his ideas from that and transferring those ideas to me. I never had to deal with his in my first marriage as H#1 was not interested in sex after I turned 30, and I never did find out why, although it was suggested to me by my therapist at the time that he could have been closeted gay. Hence my trauma at once again finding myself at sea due to sexual issues.

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Originally Posted By: Bluebird51

What has dampened my enthusiasm is knowing he views porn, and that he may be getting his ideas from that and transferring those ideas to me.


That is usually the case. And when the wife does not perform like an 18 year old porn star, he is disappointed because he is in the habit of making comparisons.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: Bluebird51
What has dampened my enthusiasm is knowing he views porn, and that he may be getting his ideas from that and transferring those ideas to me.


He is going to have to take porn off the table, or his sexual needs cannot be met.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: BWS71
I suggest you consider a less direct approach than confronting your husband about porn.


There absolutely must be a confrontation. You are right that it should not including scolding or judging.

So it shouldn't be along the lines of "How could you view that filthy stuff?" or anything like that. It should be "We can't have a relationship and I can't meet your sexual needs if you reserve the right to view porn." Ending the porn usage and agreeing to transparency and accountability has to be a condition for continuing the marriage.

There doesn't need to be any judgment or disrespect involved. Simply explain this is the way you are and that you are not willing to tolerate images of other women being present in your marriage. You might even let him know that his sexual needs can be met BETTER when he ends the contrast effect. (That is one major reason why I do not view porn. I'd hate to make it impossible to meet my most important emotional need.)


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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