So, in that situation, what should we have done differently to be in line with POJA? It is a black and white issue, baby or no baby, so negotiating an alternative where we are both happy would have been impossible. I am pretty new to Marriage Builder concepts, so I am hoping I am just missing something here.

After 2 years of waiting I put down an ultimatum (which I now see was wrong) of either trying for an other baby or taking permanent birth control steps so that I could stop living in limbo.

I am excited at the prospect of having a MB marriage some day!!

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In my seminars, I will often rhetorically ask the audience if they discussed pre-conditions to their marriages (I don't ask them to identify themselves). For example, did anyone ask the other, "Will you agree to be gainfully employed throughout our marriage." Some people have so much trouble finding a suitable career that they spend their lifetimes chronically unemployed. Should that make a difference? Should employment be a condition for marriage?

Another question might be, "Will you agree to have sex with me regularly after marriage?" What if a spouse at some point during marriage refuses to make love for, say, three years (not an uncommon experience). Should willingness to have sex be a condition for marriage?

We could mention other conditions. "Will you agree to show affection to me, tell me you love me and hug and kiss me?" Would you have married someone who could not commit themselves to being affectionate to you? Should affection be a condition for marriage?

"Will you agree to take time out of your busy schedule to give me your undivided attention?" That's often neglected.

"Will you agree to be honest with me?"

"Will you agree to not to hit me?"

"Will you agree not to have an affair?"

I could go on and on with conditions that most of us assume of each other when we marry. But the conditions are rarely stated, except the one about having an affair -- in most wedding vows, we promise to be faithful (not that it does much good).

There are reasons not to state pre-conditions for marriage. The most important reason is that the marriage itself is considered to be more important than the expectations for marriage. In other words, when you marry, you agree to share your life with another person "for better or for worse." You agree to marry even if things don't turn out as good as you had hoped. That's why specific expectations, such as having sex, being affectionate, earning a living, or in your case, having children, are not usually stated in the vows.

In your case, you asked your husband if "he wanted children." I'm not sure you intended it to be a condition for marriage, or if he took it that way. Even if you had given him a legal document to sign committing himself to children, should you hold him to his agreement?

For your sake, for the sake of your unborn children, and for the sake of your husband, I advise you not to have children until you have your husband's enthusiastic agreement. I don't think you married him just to have children -- you married him because you loved him and wanted to share your life with him. Having children, like any other objective in life, makes sense only when you and your husband share enthusiasm for the objective, and want to carry it out together.

The same thing is true for earning a living and having sex. You should only do it for each other when you are in mutual agreement. Neither you nor your spouse should force the other to do anything. All of your care for each other should be willingly offered.

That doesn't mean that you can't spend a considerable amount of time negotiating for what you want. There are ways to encourage your husband to want to have children. It's the same method I recommend to encourage spouses to meet any of the important emotional needs, or objectives in life. I have mentioned it in most of my Q&A columns already, but it doesn't hurt to review it once more.

1. Set ground rules to make negotiations pleasant and safe.

Before you start to negotiate about having children, agree with each other that you will both follow these rules: (a) be pleasant and cheerful throughout your discussion of the issue, (b) put safety first--do not threaten to cause pain or suffering when you negotiate, even if your spouse makes threatening remarks or if the negotiations fail, and (c) if you reach an impasse, stop for a while and come back to the issue later.

Under no conditions should you be disrespectful or judgmental of your spouse's opinions or desires. Your negotiations should accept and respect your differences. Otherwise, you will fail to make them pleasant and safe.

2. Identify the problem from the perspectives of both you and your spouse.

Be able to state each other's position regarding parenthood before you go on to find a solution. Why do you want children? Why doesn't he want children? Be sure you don't argue with him, just get to know how he feels.

3. Brainstorm solutions with abandon.

Spend some time thinking of all sorts of ways to handle the problem, and don't correct each other when you hear of a plan that you don't like -- you'll have a chance to do that during the fourth step. He may suggest that you get a puppy instead of a child. Don't say anything, just write it down along with other suggestions. If you give your intelligence a chance to flex its muscle, you will have a long list of possible solutions.

4. Choose the solution that is appealing to both of you.

From your list of solutions, some will satisfy only one of you but not both. However, scattered within the list will be solutions that both of you would find attractive. Among those solutions that are mutually satisfactory, select the one that you both like the most.

When couples have a serious conflict, I usually suggest a test of solutions before actually implementing any of them. That allows them to consider worthy alternatives even though one spouse may not yet be enthusiastic about it. In the case of having children, how could you test a solution without actually having a child?

One possibility is to baby sit other people's children. Offer, free of charge, evenings watching your friends' children while they go out to see a movie. As you baby sit, think about how you and your husband would make decisions about the care of your own children. How would you divide responsibilities so that your husband would not feel suffocated by it all? How would you preserve your privacy, so that you could continue to meet each other's emotional needs the same way you meet them now? How would you avoid his trying to escape it all by forming new friendships and activities that do not include you or the children?

Your first baby sitting experience may turn into a disaster because you have never considered some of these questions before. In fact, it may be so bad that it may even shake your resolve. But as you begin to make wise decisions that take each other's feelings into account, you may get to be so comfortable with baby sitting that you will be the envy of all your friends -- a couple who love children so much that they would rather baby sit than spend a night out.

There are other considerations that may come up as you discuss his objections to having children. For many men, children conjure up visions of burdensome child support, awkward visitation and endless legal expenses. If you and he are having any trouble getting along now, once a child comes along, your marriage could be over, and your husband may be thinking about that possibility.

If you go about trying to resolve your conflict over having children the way I have suggested, it may illustrate the way you should solve all of your problems. Instead of ending each conflict with resentment and hurt feelings, you may find yourselves beginning to create a lifestyle based on mutual consideration. That, in turn, would erase any worry about the disaster of divorce after your child arrives.

Try to get everything you've ever wanted in marriage. But do it in a way that has your husband's enthusiastic agreement and support. Otherwise, you may find yourself getting what you want, but losing your husband.

In this issue, I have to ask if you got married to have children or did you get married to cement a life with a man you love? If you only got married to have children, then maybe the marriage was not in his best interest.

That is why I gave him the ultimatum of trying now for another baby or vasectomy/tubal. I did lay it out just like that, one or the other, now choose. I handled that aspect badly, but all other attempts at discussion went nowhere.

I don't see how you can describe this as wrong. It is perfectly acceptable to expect a straight-forward answer to a straight-forward question.

PoJA requires two people who are happy to be at the negotiating table. Two people who are keen to find solutions. These people are clever fix-its. These people are called buyers.

I don't think your efforts to find solutions was 'damaging' to your marriage. In fact you should ahve left when it became clear your H was unwilling to join you in your efforts. Women who have to drag their H's up mountains are never going to be happy.

Your H sounds a lot like a renter, or a freeloader to me. He was not a buyer. Renters put a lot of effort in in the beginning and then coast off it for life. It is typical of them to avoid conflict because the trouble simply is not worth it to them

Do not blame yourself for your H's affair. He could have told you he was unhappy/in an A at any time and you would have joined him in finding solutions.

Did you expose his A to your children? Did you end contact with him?

If you are going to start dating again, I would recommend you read Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders so as to find the best candidate for a future husband.

You describe my ex very accurately, I always felt like I was pulling him along. He very rarely gave direct honest answers to anything, from big issues to small daily things.

I found an excellent article that answers your question:
Should We Have Children?

I might dump my dating thread in the dating section for you to have a read of. I had many of the same concerns when I got back out there.

I would love to read your thread, thanks.

I have had many friends and family suggest to me that my ex and I will get back together some day, after he finds himself alone and broke and realizes what he had.

I don't challenge him and most importantly, my H knows when I ask I am TRULY seeking his perspective instead of trying to win a debate and force my desires on him. I ask him, "how do you feel about ______?"

And now he does meet my need for O&H because he knows its safe.

TT, many of your questions sound like challenges and that would have shut my own husband down because he hates to debate. My H had this same reaction until I completely changed my approach and changed my black and white thinking.

I suspect you could always win a debate with your husband because you have better verbal skills. That is a sure fire marriage killer. If your XH KNEW that your goal was to enforce your own wishes on him by winning a debate that was his way of avoiding the fight.

We don't have those infuriating debates anymore because I don't challenge him and most importantly, my H knows when I ask I am TRULY seeking his perspective instead of trying to win a debate and force my desires on him. I ask him, "how do you feel about ______?" He knows there will be no debate because I am truly seeking his perspective so we can reach a mutually enthusiastic agreement. We NEVER go into a discussion with a pre-formed decision.


So you outmatched him verbally and also supported him? Then I seriously doubt he would miss such a marriage.