You have identified one EN in your habits; you have a high need for a Physically Attracive spouse.

What can your wife do to better meet your need for a Physically Attractive spouse?

*ETA: your wife cannot realistically compete with porn stars.


.... porn stars cannot realistically compete with porn stars...

This need will be easier to meet once you eliminate this contrast.

I agree with this 100 percent. Instead of paying for an hour of counseling about your problems, replace it with one hour of spending time with your focus entirely on your wife. My husband was a lot like you.

Here are some ideas you can try.

1. Cuddle with her for 10 minutes every
single morning.

2. Set your alarm for every hour during the work day to make affectionate communication with her through phone or text. (Yes. Set your alarm so that you don't forget about your partner.)

3. Set a Parent Cufew in your home. Make it clear to all that it is couple time. Finish family business before that. Set your alarm and arrive on time to the bedroom.

4. Call your wife every single day on the way home from work. Let her know that you are thinking about your UA time that evening.

5. Don't make any excuses or try to normalize your lovebusters. If it causes unhappiness for your wife, then it is a habit that needs to change.
n
5. Let your wife know often that you have been 100% successful in her protecting her by not gawking. Reassure her truthfully so that she can start to feel safe.

6. Don't get discouraged by everyone's advice. We know that MB concepts are life changing. We get a bit too excited sometimes. (at least I do) Change is difficult, but definitely possible. My husband craves our time together now. He still needs to keep his guard up, and I still hold him accountable for his behavior. But he wants me to. We agreed that a periodic impromptu polygraph would be a good idea.


DidntQuit
(Happily Married & In Love with 1HopefulGuy)

What's going on iRecover?

Interestingly on average men don't 'need' to have a good relationship or to be deeply in love. They can get by OK, as long as they still get sex.

The irony is they can't get sex unless their wife is in love!

You do have EN's other than SF which are required to be 'in love' but you won't need them as strongly as you need the physical need of sex - until you start getting them.

Once your wife starts being your most fun companion, you might find she meets your RC need in a way no one else can.

Or once she starts being proud of you as a husband and provider you might find her admiration too sweet to do without ever again.

My guess is that if your SF need is that high, you probably also have a PA need and a need for her to want you too (admiration).

As others have said, the main thing is to meet her needs. Yours will probably reveal themselves later.

One BIG word of warning - Just because you have a high SF need doesn�t mean your wife has to robotically provide this. Or in providing acts she dislikes just because it featured in the porn. It's key you focus on her pleasure rather than yours and on creating an environment she finds romantic. If she is turned off right now you may need to exercise patience and court her. If she sacrifices her body to you, it won't be sustainable for her to do so for long.

It's in your interest to make sex a tailor made experience for her.

MarriedForever: Good idea about the butterflies question. Takes a lot of work on my part to remember those things -- I don't have a good "emotional" memory but will keep it in mind. As for "what would repulse us idea": clever, will try that angle, too.

MelodyLane: We happened to make decisions in the last few days about scheduling UA time first and cutting out one Recovery mtg, cut back on pro. counselor to 1x/month and I plan to target 40hr/week as my work limit (barring crises at work). Will re-focus on the main 4 EN as you suggest. I grasp the inversion or polarization of needs btwn men and woman (i.e. men's SF/RC vs women's affection/IC) and how they can be cross-fulfilling.

graceful2b: Gold nuggets here, too.

markos: W's main complaints (other than the the P, L (Lust) and dishonesty that went with it) have been that I don't spend enough time with her, not enough affection, not here mentally though physically, seeming not to care for/love her. It's definitely been an unhappy life with an unhappy W. It's just that it's been overwhelming to me over the years to try to fill all her needs the the length/depth she needs them filled. MB has helped with that but still overwhelmed at times.

BrainHurts: Will try to listen to clip before I return to the forum.

HoldHerHand: Believe it or not, I didn't compare W to P stars. Actually, my W is a beautiful woman with an awesome figure. That may not make sense coming from one who had an issue with L&P but maybe I'll explain in the future -- not an immediate issue right now.

DidntQuit: Actually, W and I have been spending a lot of time cuddling over the past 4-5 weeks since we started on MB even tho I'm not at home 3-4 nights per week (W's not ready for me to be home full time yet). Giving W feedback on how/when I have NOT been gawking is a good -- something she has asked for to help reassure her.

IndieGirl: Actually, my libido has been low for some years partly due to the meds I take, age, stress but it's not gone (may sound ironic given my issue with L&P). Incidentally, I don't think I have ever "ambushed" or pressured my wife for SF but have been reluctant to pursue it/ask for it due to our conflict over the years. IAC, she does have triggers now (post D-Day) that she is dealing with as best she can. Still, we have had some intimacy over the past 4-5 weeks.


Thanks to all for input/guidance/help.

We reached a milestone today. We have completed the online seminar and signed our MOA. PTL!

Fantastic, now it's time to work the program. Good job.

When will you be talking with your coach?

terrific!

That is true, but once a man experiences sex accompanied by deep emotional love, I can't imagine why he would want to settle for anything less.

I actually view using women as sexual objects as a rather stupid thing for a man to do. There are easier ways to satisfy a sexual craving that don't involve the complication of dealing with other people. But hey, I've been contaminated by the experience of the real deal. I wouldn't settle for less than what I have with my wife.

I agree with you completely, just that it is true that there are men who are not plunged into the same kind of deep depression women commonly experience without the non sexual intimate needs.

Some men can feel perfectly OK without it and they wouldn't even consider that they are using their wife as a sexual object. As they are providing for her, they don't see it as taking advantage.

I think there are men (and women) who accept lovelessness even when they have been in love in the past. They think it must be natural for passion to wane.

Only MBers who have experienced how easy it is to revive the lovebank view a life of lovelessness as crazy.

Good for you! Exciting times.

Mr. iRecover,

My wife, Didntquit, told me about this thread and your situation. She frequents this forum for tidbits and gems that can help us. But every now and again, she jumps in to help where she can. She saw your thread and saw a lot of similarities between your behavior/symptoms/thought-processes and mine. She thought that you might believe our story better if you heard it from me. If you have time, you can go back and read through my threads and you might find some help seeing how I used to be vs. where I am now [search for posts by 1HopefulGuy]. But I'd like to give you a high level overview of things that have really helped me get healthy and you may wish to consider.

1. Emotional Needs and �Mind Blindness�

Three years ago when I told my wife that I wanted a divorce, I had no concept of Emotional Needs (EN�s). If you had simply listed the 10 most important EN�s mentioned in HNHN, I would have probably said that SF and PA were my highest EN�s (which is likely what any porn addict will say). And furthermore, I figured that I wasn�t the right guy to meet her emotional needs (I probably would have said that hers were FS, Aff., and SF). I figured: I didn�t make enough money to meet her need for FS, I don�t really love her (romantic love), so I don�t want to be affectionate, and I had no desire to have sex with her because in my mind at the time, she wasn�t attractive �enough�. So I figured: �We�re incompatible. Let�s both just move on with our lives. You�re not happy with me and I�m not happy with you.�

Luckily, she didn't take me up on my offer. She fought for our marriage.

Three years ago I was in a place where I couldn't even connect with my emotional self. I blamed all my problems and addictions on some external factor which I figured I had no control over. Everything was someone else�s fault. Since then I have learned a lot about my brain, my emotions, and my emotional needs. From the little bit I've heard about your situation from my W and reading a few of your posts, I believe that your brain and my brain behave very similarly: We tend to be emotionally disconnected. Not that we don�t have emotions. On the contrary, I am VERY emotional. I just keep it all bottled up where nobody, including myself, can see it. I wouldn't have said that 3 years ago. I would have said that all of my actions were a logical result of my surroundings, but not my own emotions and desires. But now I understand that I have a shield or a wall between my emotional needs and my conscious brain. It takes me awhile to know what I�m feeling. It takes me a while to dig into my emotions to know what is really causing my anxiety. I tend to be emotionally disconnected from myself. Part of building our marriage was for me to really dig into emotions, figure out what my REAL needs are (for example: �What�s really driving my porn addiction?� Or, �Why I do love being a father and hate being a husband?� Or, �My sister GETS me, but you don�t!�), and then ALLOW my wife to meet those needs. I had to learn to get in touch with my Taker (See Article on Giver and Taker). My Taker was always there, but I never admitted to myself or my wife that I WANTED something; I just expected my W to magically do it because it was the �logical� thing to do! So there was no way in the world that she could ever meet my needs.

Getting in touch with my Taker is only a small sliver of what I�m calling �Mind Blindness.� I know Dr. Harley doesn�t like labeling folks with mental �disorders�. And for good reasons. He doesn�t want someone to say, �I have ADD and therefore I can�t possibly concentrate.� While it may be more difficult for an ADD person to concentrate, it IS possible for them to LEARN how. They can train their brain by forming positive habits! Will they always struggle? Of course! But all is not lost. Dr. Harley wants us to focus on learning good habits rather than have a pity party about our �disorder.� I�ve learned in the last three years that my brain works a little differently than many people�s. Understanding this difference has helped me to (1) admit that I might not always see the world the way the world really is and therefore be more open to other�s perspectives (especially W�s), and (2) build habits to help me compensate for deficits. You can�t fix what you don�t know is broken.

I�m saying this because I exhibit several behaviors that fall on the �Autistic Spectrum� and I see you demonstrating some of the same disconnected behaviors. They've pulled the term �Aspergers� from the latest version of the official manual of mental disorders (the �DSM-5�), but that doesn't mean that folks who exhibit some of the �symptoms� don�t exist. They now simply refer to it as �being on the Autistic Spectrum.� I personally like the separate diagnosis for Asperger�s, but they didn't consult me for my input. :^)

We are completely capable individuals. We often appear smart and �on top of it� to those around us. (A lot of us, myself included, become engineers.) But we sometimes have what I refer to as a �blindness� to certain social and emotional interactions. I like to use the following analogy. Let�s say that people weren't really able to see whether or not other people had thumbs. You would go through life finding certain things difficult. Other people would excel at things like removing bottle lids and you would just avoid them altogether just saying to yourself, �I don�t care about bottles, anyway.� Or �Playing the piano is for sissies!� But then one day the doctor tells you that while most of the population have these cool things called thumbs, you don�t have them and never have. It would all start to make sense! All those times you felt something was different and you just couldn't put your�uhh�thumb on it! :^) It doesn't mean that you can�t open bottles or play the piano. It just means that you�ll have to do it a little differently than most people and some people will never quite understand why you do things a little differently (�Why the heck is he using his teeth to put the lid on the toothpaste!?!!? [e.g. �Why does he communicate so differently?� Or �Why doesn't he see that his behavior is hurtful?�]). And knowing that you are missing thumbs allows you to get help when there are activities that you really struggle with. You can then LEARN behaviors and habits to navigate through areas where you may have impaired �visibility.� (For example, Dr. Harley recommends asking, �How would you feel about XYZ?� Rather than saying, �I�d really like it if you would do XYZ.� It�s a subtle difference, but it�s an example of a simple habit that helps you take other people�s feelings into account rather than spouting off what you want.)

I highly recommend just going online, studying up on ASD, and perhaps taking some of the online tests to see if you are on the spectrum. I've read a few books as well and while it doesn't all apply to me, I learned a lot about myself: that�s why it�s called a �spectrum�; it manifests itself differently for each person. Know thyself. Knowledge is power (when used properly; not as a crutch, but as a tool). Learning about your brain functions may help you understand your TRUE emotional needs. This understanding of my brain has SIGNIFICANTLY helped me and my wife meet both of our emotional needs.

2. Sex Drive and Sexual Fulfillment

Check your testosterone (T) levels!!! Just because you like checking out women, enjoying their beauty, and whacking off at porn doesn't mean that you have a healthy sex drive. In fact, Dr. Harley has actually said just the opposite�that often times men turn to porn because of a low sex drive and the porn and masturbation (P&M) is just an easy outlet for men with diminished sex drive. That was my case. My T levels were right on the clinical edge of being too low and even though my doctor was willing to prescribe T to bump it up into more �normal� levels, my HMO didn't cover it because I was still within �normal� levels. In fact, some doctors would have been unwilling to prescribe testosterone to me at all because I�m in my 40�s and they just think it�s normal. And another unfortunate barrier in getting treated for low testosterone is that it is a highly abused medication for doofuses who want to explode their biceps. I was VERY reluctant to get diagnosed and even more reluctant to be treated. But my dear wife insisted. In fact, she drew a line. Now I�m glad she did. I am on a pretty low dose. I get a shot once a week. When I�m taking testosterone, I am attracted to my wife. I WANT her. When I�m not on testosterone, I still love her, but I don�t feel a pull, or a push, or an attraction: I still care for her deeply, but I�m just not driven to be with her. I�d be just as content watching movies or reading a book (for you it�s your work) and my hyper-focused mind would just not even think of her. It�s not because she�s not an attractive person, because she is. I just find that when I�m not on T, I don�t have drive to want to be with her. When I�m off T, I find myself being MORE tempted to look at other women and wanting to go back to looking at porn because it�s my brain wanting to connect emotionally, but not having the drive to push the emotional connection. A little difficult to explain, but I think you get the gist.

Another problem for me was that for most of my adult life, I used the P&M as a drug because I also have depression and anxiety. I�ll get to that in a second. But the point I want to make here is that: as someone who was always wanting to look at other women and porn, I thought my testosterone levels would have been high. Not the case. They were low. I also would have thought that by increasing my T levels, that I would want to look at other women and Porn even more. Again�not the case. Because my W and I are trying to spend 15 hours of UA time together each week, when I�m on T and doing enjoyable things with my wife, I find myself VERY attracted to my her both physically AND emotionally. She floats my boat. Not that boat floating can�t happen without the T in my system, it just makes it very difficult for me to WANT her BOTH physically AND emotionally. In addition, I have more energy in general and more ambition in general (easier to get up off the couch and do something productive). From reading a few of your posts, it looks like you might be a candidate. Look into it. Seriously.

3. Chemical Balancing

As I've mentioned, I am also dealing with depression and anxiety. I take an anti-depressant (AD) daily. I wish I didn't have to take an anti-depressant, but I do. I've tried to go off it several times and I fall apart (depression and anxiety both spike). I was on Effexor and it succeeded in curbing my depression and anxiety, but it also killed ALL my senses (like joy and happiness). My dear W suspected that I was on the wrong AD and did a bunch of research on alternatives. She found one that she thought would work better and fortunately, my doctor went along with it and I�m now on Lexapro. It IS a libido killer, so that kinda sucks. At one point I was taking the AD for depression/anxiety which kills libido, then the T, which increases libido, and Cialis, to help combat the lack of libido caused by the Lexapro. I feel like a drugstore with legs. I hate the fact that I need all these chemicals to regulate what �normal� people are like, but it�s just the way it is and I�m glad I know what�s going on inside (or what�s not going on).

I have to make sure on a daily, even hourly basis that I am chemically balanced. When I�m not, I�m learning to not lash out at others or blame my (perceived, at the moment, seemingly) sucky life on my wife or life�s circumstances. I have to just introspect and determine that my brain is not seeing the world through a clear lens. I then try to figure out which chemical I�m lacking and either adjust accordingly or warn my wife that I�m temporarily out of order. I�m hoping that someday through building good habits and lifestyle changes that perhaps I can start to drop some of the meds. But until then, I�m grateful that God has put me in an era of medical breakthroughs.

Meds, genetics, and good habits:

Facing the fact that you might be chemically, mentally, or emotionally deficient is not fun. I still find myself mourning the loss of the life I would've had if I had known 30 years ago what I know now. But unlike missing thumbs, chemical, emotional, and even mental deficits can be treated. For me, not any single drug or activity could have helped me, in and of itself. For me, I needed AD�s, testosterone injections, the Marriage Builder�s program, and lots of coaching and counseling. Any one of the above by itself wouldn't have been enough to pull my head out of my bum (that�s pretty much where it was). Luckily for me, I had a very patient wife who dealt with a husband with his head up his bum for 20 years. Then, when I told her I wanted to leave her, instead of kicking me to the curb, she got online and looked for help. She found Marriage Builders. She researched AD meds. She figured out (by listening to Dr. Harley and Joyce�s MB Radio) that I was probably low T. About the same time she also figured out that ASD runs in my family and helped me get a counselor who deals with people on the spectrum. If not for all of these helps and her having the patience of Job, not only would my head still be up my bum, but I would be minus a wife and family and possibly even a job (I was doing less-than honorable activities on my computer at work, as well). So there you have it. I haven�t read all of your thread. So I don�t really know what actions you�ve taken so far. But I highly recommend the following:

- Listening to MB Radio: about 5 to 10 hours per week. Dr. Harley will teach you about emotional intelligence and thoughtfulness. I recommend paying the $40 or whatever to subscribe so that you can download boatloads of MBRadio MP3's and listen to them whenever you have a moment. If you're listening to talk radio in the morning, listen to MBRadio instead. If you're watching the evening news, do this instead. If you're reading something in the bathroom, do this instead. If you're able to listen to talk while working, then do it (I personally can't do both at the same time, but I hear that some people can). I really believe that MBRadio is one of the most important things someone can do to rebuild their marriage (and improve themselves!)
- Reading MB books: about 1/2hour per day. HNHN, Love Busters, Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders, they�re all good. Dr. Harley biases his materials for men. Men typically like systematic, almost mechanical ways to solve problems and Dr. Harley delivers. In fact, I think he was going to be an engineer! He has a very logical and process-driven way of thinking. So his books and his methods are perfect for brains like ours!
- Spending UA time with your W: 20 hours per week. He recommends 15 for good marriages. Troubled marriages and emotionally disconnected people like me require more time.
- Scale back on non-relevant activities in favor of activities with your wife and children (mostly wife). I personally quit serving at church and volunteering in the community to focus on my marriage. This is an emergency. All hands on deck! God doesn't want your marriage to fail so He'll find someone else to help the needy.
- Look into your T levels. Even what�s considered by mainstream medical community to be �normal� may be low for YOU. That�s was the case with me. You have to fight for your health. Again, for me, being on T is a night and day change!
- Getting PROPER treatment for any Depression or Anxiety. You might be on a med that isn't the best for YOU.
- Keep getting help for sex addiction. Read the book: Every Man�s Battle (Arterburn, Stoeker, and Yorkey). Even if you�re not a Christian, all the principles still apply.
- Research ASD and see if you exhibit behaviors that fall "on the spectrum." (You may not have any thumbs!) If so, you might want to get some professional mental guidance
- Get a personal counselor/coach who can help you apply MB principles (Consider the MB Online Course)
- Keep coming to this forum and DOING the things the people here are telling you. I fought with MelodyLane tooth and nail. But I eventually humbled myself and listened to what she and the other helpers here were telling me. They know what they're talking about! Trust these people!

Change is hard. It�s painful. It feels unnatural. But hopefully your path will yield little successes on the way which give you a sense that there actually IS a light at the end of the tunnel.

Good Luck!
-1HG

What a powerful post, 1hopefulguy!! Thanks so much for a super post. You and the Mrs are a true success story.

iRecover,

Did you read the thread I already posted to you?

What do you think of the awesome post that 1HopefulGuy has posted to you?

1HG,
Thanks for the extensive, detailed post. I found some gems. Here's my summary take-away:
1. I reviewed ASD symptoms online such as WebMD.com. I don't think I fit the pattern but appreciate the suggestion.
2. I had my T levels checked about 6 mo. Dr said they were on the low end of the range but not worth treating. However, I plan to go back to him and ask for it anyway. Your point about what's normal for the "avg mail" may not be for me. Also, in early Apr, I will be seeing new Psych to address my whole med. picture. Current psych we think is not really looking into or responding to expressed concerns plus that one is a female (new one is male) -- an important EP for my wife.
3. My wife and I have been using MB.com resources including taking the paid course, paid counseling/coaching. It's helping.
4. I'd like to get the MBRadio audio files but $ is tight at the moment but can do in a few weeks if it's a one time charge.
5. My W has been the impetus for all periods in the marriage when we sought professional help. I'm thankful for her persistence and dedication to following God's leading in rebuilding our marriage.

Thanks again.
iR

W and I had major fallout a few days ago on my birthday. It's been a recurring issue that nearly every special day (Christmas, T-giving, Father's Day, Mother's day, birthdays, etc.) her feelings of dissatisfaction become more acute and we argue about my not meeting her needs. So, another special day was ruined before 0830a. In this case, I was trying to arrange a time to meet my DD (25yo whom I see only every 3-4 months even though she lives ~1hr away) while also negotiating time for my b-day with W and SD. I was trying to meet all the girls needs for my time. This triggered something in W who feels I have put DD first for most of marriage but I have stopped that for the past year+. IAC, I felt suffocated, like being grabbed by claws, in an effort to control everything I do -- just could not take it anymore. I abruptly ended the conversation/hung up the phone (was driving to work) and haven't spoken with her since. Right now, I don't see a way back to a better place unless she can come to terms with this (apparent) severe dependency on me.

Your wife's need for your time is top priority. It seems you were trying to engage in IB while also trying to appear to put your wife first. It doesn't work, as you found out. Dr. Harley spoke to a wife on the private forums and suggested that from this time on, even special days need to be planned with joint enthusiastic agreement. Maybe it's your wife he answered. Also, you withdrew love units when you became angry and hung up on her. Can you bring yourself to apologize to her for this behavior and let her know from this point on you will respectfully negotiate with her so that you are both happy with the decisions? It's also a disrespectful judgement to say that your wife is severely dependent on you just because she needs her feelings to be taken into account. Make decisions with her best interest in mind, not all the girls' interests in mind. You are married to only one of these.

It sounds as if you tried to arrange time to see your daughter without discussing that with your wife first.

Your marriage is in trouble partly because of your interactions with your daughter, and the way your wife feels that you put your daughter's needs above hers. Your daughter is a 25 year-old woman; what "needs" does she have for her father that are more important than your wife's needs for you?

Your daughter should be seeing both of you together, and only when such meetings are agreed in advance by both of you together. It must make your wife feel horrible that you choose to see your daughter away from her, as if you two are not a married couple. It must make her feel as if your daughter does not respect the fact that you are married and your wife is not being acknowledged as your wife, all because your wife isn't her mother.

It is profoundly disrespectful for you to have a separate, independent relationship with your daughter that your wife is made to feel as if she intrudes upon. It is not good enough for you to say that you have stopped putting your daughter first for the past year; every time you attempt to do something independently with her in the present, even if it's only every 3-4 months or on special occasions, you add to the major problem you have created in your marriage over the years.

To compound this with putting the phone down on your wife and not speaking to her for days is vicious. You are showing no effort to show extraordinary care and protection for wife (which is the definition of marriage that we on this forum are all working towards), or to understand and put a stop to the ill-treatment you have afforded your wife over the years.

You by yourself had the "major fallout" that you describe here. You by yourself tried yet again to make an independent arrangement with your daughter (a lovebuster with a long history) which sidelined your wife (a lovebuster), and then were abusive again when you put the phone down (a lovebuster) and did not speak to her again (punishment and cruelty, major lovebusters).

You did the major falling out all by yourself. "We" - your wife and you - did not have a falling out. You fought with your wife and beat her up emotionally, and your are still beating her up by not speaking to her (to apologise and beg forgiveness, which you should be doing before anything else).

Your wife should not put up with this, and I don't think she will for much longer.

In other words, you created a massive fallout by being completely and utterly thoughtless of your wife's feelings! Where in all this did you EVER consider your wife's feelings?

You, Sir, are WRECKING your marriage with your thoughtless, independent behavior. It is a lovebuster.

con'd here