Hello,

I have been dating a man for about 3.5 years. During this time, we have never lived together or had sex, as we have strong moral convictions that this is wrong. We are both virgins, actually.

I have struggled a lot with the idea of marriage. This has been a question as our relationship has grown stronger -- get married or do not get married? It is especially a struggle for him, as you may have guessed, because the more he loves me the more he wants to have sex.

I have always struggled significantly more than him with the idea of getting married. Finally, I felt a peace about the situation and told him that I would marry him.

Well, my peace was somewhat short-lived, and I picked up Love Busters to see if it held any clues to improving our relationship. It turns out that we have some problems with Love Busters (notably selfish demands and disrespectful judgements) - especially him with the disrespectful judgements (lecturing, not listening to my ideas, deciding many things by himself, trying to "straighten me out" type behavior), though I have problems as well.

He is very open and willing to change, and when he realized the seriousness of my concern over the issues he went out of his way to be understanding and try to heal the relationship. When he read the disrespectful judgements chapter, I saw the realization hit him that he did almost everything in that chapter - and he felt terrible about it.

I guess I am concerned because I have now realized that neither of us feel in love with the other and probably have not felt in love with each other for a significant amount of time. But he is no doubt my best friend, and even if I do not feel romantically in love with him right now I still have a lot of companionate love for him. We let bad habits in, which have damaged our love and trust for each other, but does this mean we should split up?

I read the Q&A on this website about people who are dating and his general advice seemed to be to split up and find someone who meets your needs better. I guess I am in a position where I have a good guy with strong morals (who is a Christian, like me) who has an IQ within 15 points of mine (which he suggests) and is absolutely determined to make the relationship work and marry me, and who loves me very much even if he does not feel head over heels right now, and while I want to do the right thing and split up if that it the best option for the both of us, I am not sure if it is.

I guess I would like some perspective, as I have had a strong fear of marriage for as long as I can remember thinking about getting married, and I can't tell if it stems from seeing my parents' marriage (which was pretty much always unattractive to me), or if it stems from society and the bad statistics and all of the broken marriages I knew about growing up, or if it stems from the health or sickness of my own relationship.

My fiance and I have decided to work through Love Busters (which we are currently reading), His Needs, Her Needs and two workbooks. We are making good progress and have already incorporated the Policy of Joint Agreement and have started keeping journals like the book suggests. We have also started spending at least 15 hours together per week, spending the time being together and talking or doing something that we both enjoy. I think it has already made a difference in our love for each other, though we are still in the process of breaking the bad habits and rediscovering what makes the other feel loved.

What do you think? Carry on and show some grit and determination, or try to find someone else? Any input would be very much appreciated. I am always split in half whenever something like this happens, torn because I want a good relationship and I have hope, but terrified of ending up in an unhappy and lonely marriage.

Dr H tends to encourage the man to take the lead.

He'd encourage you to say what you want and step back and see if he does it. you don't have to make an 'all in or all out' decision. Lots of people break up and get back together.

If he's telling you what to do/think that could be a useful way to reinforce that you aren't subject to him. He can woo you back.

Do you, by any chance, know about how long it takes to feel romantically in love with your significant other after implementing Dr. Harley's ideas?

Thank you for your response. I have been telling him what I want and he has been taking it very seriously. Our relationship has improved a lot in a short time.

I only know that it depends on how much time you spend together a week. More than 15 hours is needed, but that should come naturally in dating. I do know he wouldn't recommend a dating couple try too hard. Did you know you can email him on the radio for free?

Have you dated very many others?

We actually weren't spending more than 15 hours per week together (well, not 15 hours of quality time, though we were around each other more than 15 hours each week) before we started reading Love Busters because we are both in college going through science programs which take a lot of time and effort. So, we have to be purposeful about spending quality time together.

I did not know I could email him for the radio talk show! That is very interesting. Maybe I will give it a shot.

I have not dated a ton of people. Maybe around ten, if I include the people who were interested in me that I happened to spend time around because of activities I was doing (and did not actually technically go on a date). I have had more than ten express interest in dating me, but many times I knew from the beginning I was not interested in them. I was interested in my fiance immediately after I met him. I met him when I was 17. I am 21 now.

Yes you can write him and he will answer your question on the show for free. And if you're a caller on their show (by leaving your phone number) they will send you a book for free. You can't lose.

Have you read where Dr. Harley advises to date 30 people so you build a contrast effect?

You're young, don't force it. But yes 15 hours of Undivided Attention meeting each other's needs and not committing Love Busters is what is needed to maintain romantic love.

I commend you for not having SF until you're married.

Have you read this and listen to the clips?
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

Oh wow - I had not read that because for some reason, I thought it applied only to people who were living together.

That is very insightful. I can see many of our problems probably stem from the "renter" mindset. I think it is probably causing us both pain to still have the "renter" mindset after dating for 3.5 years. But it makes sense that we would have this mindset. I think we did not really understand that making long-term sacrifices (or just sacrifices in general) is bad. So, we have been sacrificing over the entire course of our relationship, while also, paradoxically, keeping some things that are "fair" to ourselves.

Also - yes, I had heard of his idea of dating 30 people. While I respect his ideas very much, that sounds terrible to me. I remember being relieved to be in a relationship because being constantly sought after by people I was just never going to be interested in was exhausting. I have a cheerful, outgoing and friendly personality, and I think that leads many men to believe that they have a chance with me. Anyway, I find dating very tiresome and am happier when I am not "on the market." It can be very exciting, but for the most part I found dating disappointing and annoying.

Buyers, Renters and freeloaders is one of my favorite Dr. Harley books.

What do you think about writing Dr. Harley?

Lol that is so me! So I would just settle for the guy who was there when I was ready to settle down already. It works out great for lots of people, but it didn't work out well for me at all. I am glad you are really thinking through this all. I agree with indie the quickest way to figure it out is to break it off and then see whether you miss him or are relieved it's over.

Yeah, maybe I will write to Dr. Harley. That seems like a good idea. Do you have suggestions as to what key points I should put in?

It would be difficult to break things off. We have arranged to get married this August and the whole family and church have gotten involved - they have already gotten together and made plans and my parents have already spent money. I guess I underestimated the importance of a longer engagement, to really think things over. I know it is more important to really be sure you want to marry who you are getting married to than cancelling everyone's plans and plane tickets, but I still feel bad about it. I would hate to be a huge flake.

Another thing I have been wondering - my fiance and I used to have our future jobs in common, but now we are in very different majors. We didn't really think about whether the other person was very interested or adept in our major before choosing it, but now we are in different fields and do not really understand each others work. I feel sad about this and I am worried that we won't have enough in common later down the road. What do you guys think? Is it important to be in similar jobs, or is it not very important? It has always seemed important to me, but I know a lot of married couples do jobs that are very different.

When you write Dr. Harley I would give him the points you did in your first post. The Harleys are so easy to talk to and will ask any questions if need be.

Let us know when you hear from them.

Okay, I sent in my question. We will see if they respond. Thank you guys.

It's commonly misunderstood. You don't have to date 30 people, it's just that in his experience, that's the most people you will have to date (with some pre-screening) to find two or three very good candidates.

The most dates he ever heard of anyone having to do was 31, where there were no good candidates until no 31 and she married that guy!

Essentially it's carry on UNTIL you find someone really great who 'knocks you off your feet'. Which typically takes anything from 1-30 'interviews'.

Without this guideline it is too tempting to date, say five people, and then talk yourself into liking Mr so-so sixth date 'because there isn't anything better'.

I guess I feel like I would be very hard-pressed to find anywhere close to 30 Christian males that I would consider dating. Even finding 5 Christian males that I would consider going on even one date with seems like a stretch. The other Christian males that I have found (four I dated very briefly and others I did not ever actually date, but realized eventually [or immediately] that I would not have been compatible with them) were not anywhere near as compatible with me as my fiance is. I definitely have quite a "contrast" effect when I think about me trying to marry one of those guys. Yikes!

There are Christian dating websites, there are churches... It all depends on how serious an approach you take.

I can think of about 10 eligible Christian men I know personally, and I am not personally religious plus the UK is a rather secular society!

That's without looking. If I looked I would find well in excess of 30, and with some pre screening for attractiveness I'd definitely be able to line up at least five as dates for the first few weeks. Some would become 'just friends' who in turn would be able to introduce me to other people in similar circles for future dates in future weeks. I'd also befriend Christian women in different churches and tell them to set me up. Don't forget asking the clergymen!

If you tell yourself the candidates are scarce then your standards are low before you even start.

I'm sure your fiance is a great guy and that it's just an overlong relationship that has caused the renters situation to overreach itself into too many lovebusters.

Perhaps it's a great situation that just needs some tweaking.

However you got to the two year point without feeling compelled to marry. You've never found each other's company compelling enough to spend a lot of time together naturally before you found out it was advisable.

Does he 'knock you off your feet' and do you have the same effect on him? Perhaps, but it's worth asking if you are trying to force something OK into being something wonderful.

Remember these techniques are really for very busy married parents who had forgotten to do what they used to do during courtship. The assumption is that they used to be in love, otherwise they would not have felt that compulsion to get married.


Dr H is able to help people who have never been overwhelmingly in love but he really doesn't understand why anyone would bother without a marital commitment. It's so much more sensible to look elsewhere.

It's also worth asking if you meet the five factors of compatibility

These are: Intelligence, values, culture, energy and social interest (extrovert/introvert).

He says even the cleverest counselling techniques struggle to overcome these five factors.

If it's important to you then it's important to you. It sounds like you used to meet a need for IC by discussing the same field.

You could still do that discussing different jobs but it depends if you find his job interesting, he finds your job interesting, and if it is your need for IC or his. Or it could be an admiration need. Did you respect his former ambitions, now you don't or vice versa. You can 'learn' to discuss other things to meet an IC need. PoJA should be used in dating. You can, in general, be married and do different types of jobs though.

The only real deal breakers job-wise are travelling jobs and shift work.

Yes, my biggest fear is that we are trying to force something okay into being wonderful. That is because we might be doing just that. I just can't tell if we are or if we can get that initial spark back by straightening out our views on what is healthy in a relationship. We both have a background of married parents dealing with conflict inappropriately, so honestly we have been trying to learn how to have a healthy relationship all on our own.

Also, we are very busy and before we learned about quality time we were still spending more than 15 hours together per week, it just wasn't quality time. When we were not so busy and stressed we spent all our time together. We have a cycle - it seems like every summer, I feel like I could marry him (this, of course, is when we are not super busy). Then during the year, I become unsure again. So, it isn't that we don't enjoy spending our time together, though sometimes when we are both stressed I find it unpleasant to be around him (and I am sure I am unpleasant to be around as well).

Is there a place I can go to find out what the acronyms used here mean? I know what some of them mean, but I don't know others, like IC.

I also remember now that when I first began dating him he had just come back from volunteering at a youth camp and had driven an hour to come to my church to see an old friend preach. I remember feeling incredibly attracted to his spirituality and willingness to go do things like become a camp counselor all on his own. He no longer volunteers doing anything spiritual, however, and he is pretty critical of most churches. This is because he is intelligent and has learned a lot about the Bible and has been alienated by all of the bad pastors out there. I grew up in the church, so I already knew many pastors were bad people. But our spiritual life has done a lot of struggling and I can see now that maybe my initial admiration need that was once met so effortlessly is no longer being met. My heart flutters when I think of what I used to admire him for.

I will post about those five compatibilities:

Intelligence: We are within 15 IQ points if the IQ test we took was correct. He got 140 and I got 128. We tried to pick a reliable IQ test but found out later that it might not have been. I think he took another IQ test later and got 138. I have not taken another IQ test.

Values: I think we have the same values, though sometimes I wonder if his are changing because he gets so disillusioned with other Christians sometimes. We both believe in waiting to have sex until marriage, and I know that has been really hard for him.

Culture: I am a little unsure of what this means.. And I have never thought about it specifically. Hmmm. I guess this was a problem when we first met because he did not have any table manners and his English wasn't always very good because he lived in a rural area and his parents were not intelligent people. But I was able to teach him table manners and his English has improved.

Energy: I don't really know about this one. He seemed to be medium-high energy when I met him (like me), and maybe he is.. But he may be lower energy than me. I am not sure our energy levels are super different, though.

Social interest (extrovert/introvert): Well, on the Myers Briggs personality test he comes out an Introvert and I come out an Extrovert. We have definitely noticed this before, but I am not a very "extroverted" extrovert (I have thought of myself as an amnivert) and he is an introvert, but has done things like volunteer to be a camp counselor, so it's not that he's so introverted that he doesn't do anything with other people. Where I noticed it most is that I used to love to go dancing, but he did not enjoy the social aspect of it (he found it tiring to dance with people he didn't know) and so we kind of stopped going. We have had private ballroom dance lessons that made us both happy, though, and sometimes I am too tired to go dancing, too. When we moved and I lost my group of dancing friends I realized how he felt, because I went social dancing for a class and felt very emotionally tired that night.

Anyway... Yesterday, I think he fulfilled one of my needs because I had a great emotional reaction that caused me to feel so wonderful I was practically dancing around my apartment. It must have been the need for openness and honesty. That is another thing that used to be prevalent in our relationship, but over time has seemed to fade away. I sometimes feel like he is hiding his emotions from me (or just doesn't know how to express his emotions), which is very harmful to me. He has hidden his negative emotions about our relationship from me before - I think it was an attempt to not upset me. But yesterday he shared his concerns with me instead of getting "happier" when I got sad. And when this happened I felt very close to him.