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FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Also, I have no idea if you guys are interested in the Myers Briggs personality test at all, but I am an ENFP and he is an INTJ. We have taken the Myers Briggs personality "Are you compatible?" test before and have come out "good" compatibility, whatever that means. We did take something related to the "Big Five" test that told us we were incompatible. I don't have any respect for the Big Five test, however. We would really like to take a professional compatibility test. I have heard of them being used in pre-marital counseling. Thank you for the acronym help! 
Last edited by Nemli; 04/03/14 12:09 PM.
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Yes, my biggest fear is that we are trying to force something okay into being wonderful. That is because we might be doing just that. I just can't tell if we are or if we can get that initial spark back by straightening out our views on what is healthy in a relationship. We both have a background of married parents dealing with conflict inappropriately, so honestly we have been trying to learn how to have a healthy relationship all on our own.
Also, we are very busy and before we learned about quality time we were still spending more than 15 hours together per week, it just wasn't quality time. When we were not so busy and stressed we spent all our time together. We have a cycle - it seems like every summer, I feel like I could marry him (this, of course, is when we are not super busy). Then during the year, I become unsure again. So, it isn't that we don't enjoy spending our time together, though sometimes when we are both stressed I find it unpleasant to be around him (and I am sure I am unpleasant to be around as well).
Is there a place I can go to find out what the acronyms used here mean? I know what some of them mean, but I don't know others, like IC.
I also remember now that when I first began dating him he had just come back from volunteering at a youth camp and had driven an hour to come to my church to see an old friend preach. I remember feeling incredibly attracted to his spirituality and willingness to go do things like become a camp counselor all on his own. He no longer volunteers doing anything spiritual, however, and he is pretty critical of most churches. This is because he is intelligent and has learned a lot about the Bible and has been alienated by all of the bad pastors out there. I grew up in the church, so I already knew many pastors were bad people. But our spiritual life has done a lot of struggling and I can see now that maybe my initial admiration need that was once met so effortlessly is no longer being met. My heart flutters when I think of what I used to admire him for.
I will post about those five compatibilities:
Intelligence: We are within 15 IQ points if the IQ test we took was correct. He got 140 and I got 128. We tried to pick a reliable IQ test but found out later that it might not have been. I think he took another IQ test later and got 138. I have not taken another IQ test.
Values: I think we have the same values, though sometimes I wonder if his are changing because he gets so disillusioned with other Christians sometimes. We both believe in waiting to have sex until marriage, and I know that has been really hard for him.
Culture: I am a little unsure of what this means.. And I have never thought about it specifically. Hmmm. I guess this was a problem when we first met because he did not have any table manners and his English wasn't always very good because he lived in a rural area and his parents were not intelligent people. But I was able to teach him table manners and his English has improved.
Energy: I don't really know about this one. He seemed to be medium-high energy when I met him (like me), and maybe he is.. But he may be lower energy than me. I am not sure our energy levels are super different, though.
Social interest (extrovert/introvert): Well, on the Myers Briggs personality test he comes out an Introvert and I come out an Extrovert. We have definitely noticed this before, but I am not a very "extroverted" extrovert (I have thought of myself as an amnivert) and he is an introvert, but has done things like volunteer to be a camp counselor, so it's not that he's so introverted that he doesn't do anything with other people. Where I noticed it most is that I used to love to go dancing, but he did not enjoy the social aspect of it (he found it tiring to dance with people he didn't know) and so we kind of stopped going. We have had private ballroom dance lessons that made us both happy, though, and sometimes I am too tired to go dancing, too. When we moved and I lost my group of dancing friends I realized how he felt, because I went social dancing for a class and felt very emotionally tired that night.
Anyway... Yesterday, I think he fulfilled one of my needs because I had a great emotional reaction that caused me to feel so wonderful I was practically dancing around my apartment. It must have been the need for openness and honesty. That is another thing that used to be prevalent in our relationship, but over time has seemed to fade away. I sometimes feel like he is hiding his emotions from me (or just doesn't know how to express his emotions), which is very harmful to me. He has hidden his negative emotions about our relationship from me before - I think it was an attempt to not upset me. But yesterday he shared his concerns with me instead of getting "happier" when I got sad. And when this happened I felt very close to him. The five categories are the categories Dr H uses in BR&FL's. From what you say above, you do sounds really compatible. It sounds like you are motivated to be around each other, even though bad habits have impacted the quality of the time. It sounds like you are 'passionately in love' when you avoid bad relationship habits. Not so much when you don't. That would be normal for any couple. I wouldn't break up with this guy, from what you say of him he is a keeper and a suitable person for you and that love is pretty easy to generate between you. It sounds like some bad relationship habits is all that's blocking it. Still I find it scary you two are getting married in August! It will be interesting to see what the doc says.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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They will be answering my question on Monday! I basically emailed them my first post, so that is what they will be responding to. Unless they come to the forum and look up the extra information, they will not have as much context because they only have the information in the first post. Thank you for your response, I am relieved that you think we shouldn't break up. The more we read and apply Dr. Harley's ideas, the more in love we feel. It's amazing how helpful these books are. So many other books and ideas are not nearly as helpful. We are repairing our relationship and it has already started making us both feel more in love.
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Nemli i am interested in hearing how you all will find the balance of staying abstinent until marriage and taking the time to see whether these are lasting changes in action.
Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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In my church the young folks get married so young it scares me. I married at 21 and would have checked all the boxes of as yes because i had no idea. Even last year at 40 in a new relationship i checked off all the boxes as yes and got engaged but I was do wrong and had to call it off later.
Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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Sorry I was on my phone didn't realize it came out so bad! I understand abstinence before marriage has a ton of benefits. Then the SF relationship would be developed after marriage and be so much richer than if it was based on renter/faking it sex experience.
I just wonder if the requirement then would leave you feeling rushed or pressured, because here your boyfriend has spent 3 and a half years "earning it," if he's not a good match would that influence your decision to turn him out to start all over again. But I hear all the time all that pressure is there for folks anyway even when they are not abstinent, so maybe that's a nonissue.
Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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I would say staying abstinent does affect a relationship, but not really by making me feel like he has "earned" me. I do notice a cycle related to physical touch. We start off and feel really in love, then we start to get too physical, then he breaks off all of the physical aspects of our relationship because it gets too hard for him (and me, honestly) to draw the line. Then, for a while we barely touch each other, which is sad (probably for both of us, but definitely at least for me). Then, at some point we start to feel in love again and the cycle repeats. I think staying abstinent has its ups and downs. I can't really imagine being a man and having one of my emotional needs remain unmet for a long period of time.
However, with the policy of joint agreement and the policy of radical honesty we should be able to work out mutually beneficial solutions and stop the cycle. We have not had very good tools for dealing with our relationship issues is in past, so hopefully the negative cycles we have dealt with before will stay in the past.
I also think if we continue to hold to the policy of joint agreement and the policy of radical honesty we will find out if we are really compatible or not. That seems to be the logical end to these pathways.
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I do notice a cycle related to physical touch. We start off and feel really in love, then we start to get too physical, then he breaks off all of the physical aspects of our relationship because it gets too hard for him (and me, honestly) to draw the line. Then, for a while we barely touch each other, which is sad (probably for both of us, but definitely at least for me). Then, at some point we start to feel in love again and the cycle repeats. . This is probably one of the most USEFUL aspects of abstinence imo. Learning how to touch non-sexually. This is a skill you need in marriage, because if all touch is sexually related then you won't be meeting the need for affection. I'm making the pretty big assumption here that you have a need for pure affection, though. Some men struggle with separating out sexual and non sexual touch. If you have a high need for affection he needs to learn how to touch you in ways that he could also use to touch a child or pet. Not that I'm down on sexual touch, in some ways the frisson of 'where is the line' is exciting and one of the upsides of abstinence.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Well, that is a very interesting point. I had never thought of that before. This is probably something many men have to learn, isn't it?
The thing that I think is NOT useful about abstinence is the emotional deprivation for the man. It is one of his needs, after all, and I think a very powerful one.
They responded to me today! They basically said we should give it a year and that I should wait to marry until I constantly feel like he is beyond compare. They called me "Jennifer" if you guys want to hear what they said. However, keep in mind that they rephrased my post a little bit (which is totally understandable, it was long) and I think they lost a little truth in the rephrasing. I have not "never felt in love" with him, it's just that at the time I wrote the post, it had been a while. Either way, I think the advice is still pretty solid.
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Also, I have no idea if you guys are interested in the Myers Briggs personality test at all, but I am an ENFP and he is an INTJ. We have taken the Myers Briggs personality "Are you compatible?" test before and have come out "good" compatibility, whatever that means. We did take something related to the "Big Five" test that told us we were incompatible. I don't have any respect for the Big Five test, however. We would really like to take a professional compatibility test. I have heard of them being used in pre-marital counseling. Thank you for the acronym help! Dr. Harley has addressed such tests on his radio show; I recall him saying that he places no stock in them. The greatest indicator of a marriage lasting is the ability to resolve conflicts.
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The thing that I think is NOT useful about abstinence is the emotional deprivation for the man. It is one of his needs, after all, and I think a very powerful one. I wouldn't call it emotional deprivation and I don't believe Dr H would either. (Now, I am not saying it isn�t a deprivation of another type! Obviously it means going without something very strong, very necessary and something very appealing). However he has said very often that people with a high SF need, including men, can be very deeply in love without SF being involved. He also expects men (and women if that's how the share of needs fall) to abstain patiently through periods of marital difficulty. As long as progress towards the long term goal of fulfilling SF is being made he doesn't treat it as a instant necessity. It's the willingness to work towards meeting someone's SF need - enthusiastically and in the right circumstances - which meets the emotional need. Which you are doing. Obviously you aren�t meeting the physical need, (and are probably making it worse!) but that won't affect his emotions. If someone were truly emotionally deprived they would fall out of love. From what I make of your posts he isn't the one who falls out of love, you are. I find it interesting that this happens sometimes when he withdraws his habit of touch. You may think marriage will solve this and after marriage he will be able to touch you affectionately without being troubled by his sex drive. I wonder. What many women discover after marriage is that they are only touched for the purpose of SF and are dismayed that all affection has disappeared. The men in these cases are often mystified at such an attitude, particularly if like your fianc�, they maintained abstinence beforehand. Surely they proved their respect and care with marriage? Now is the time for SF! However it makes the woman feel unloved and not feel like SF any more. This is one of the most common marital disasters Dr H encounters. Just something to discuss. Would marriage mean he was now allowed to always touch you sexually or just sometimes? Did you know SF is any kind of sexual contact and response? I imagine your relationship is probably a highly charged one chock-full of its own type of SF! I am sure a lot of the 'future promise' in your reactions makes him feel very emotionally fulfilled indeed. I would guess it makes him look forward to a future with you probably more than many men having full sex regularly. That said it is obviously a very big struggle. Anyone with a high SF need will get that he is going to find it very tough. But I doubt it is tough on his emotions. I'm glad you liked their advice!
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Well, that is a very interesting point. I had never thought of that before. This is probably something many men have to learn, isn't it?
The thing that I think is NOT useful about abstinence is the emotional deprivation for the man. It is one of his needs, after all, and I think a very powerful one.
They responded to me today! They basically said we should give it a year and that I should wait to marry until I constantly feel like he is beyond compare. They called me "Jennifer" if you guys want to hear what they said. However, keep in mind that they rephrased my post a little bit (which is totally understandable, it was long) and I think they lost a little truth in the rephrasing. I have not "never felt in love" with him, it's just that at the time I wrote the post, it had been a while. Either way, I think the advice is still pretty solid. Here are some more notes from your radio segment: They addressed your concerns about marrying this man and that you might end up in an unhappy and lonely marriage. Dr. Harley said that, based on his "own personal experience with counseling couples and from his reading of statistics in this area that about 45% of all marriages end in divorce. Another 20% end up permanently separated. About half of those remaining are married and living together but would say they are not very happy in their marriage. The last group, about 16 - 20% of married couples, are very happy. Based on these statistics, your concerns are valid. 'You should wait until you are in love, until you can say that can't possibly live your life without this person. That's the time to think about getting married." 'All of your fears about what could happen are predicated on the fact that things haven't been all that wonderful. He's doing things that that you certainly wouldn't want your life partner to be doing with you." 'Let's see what happens. Give it another year. If you're not in love, don't even think about marrying him. When you're in love you will feel an incredible attraction and that he is your very best friend. You will feel like you have a chemistry with him. You will sure feel like you want to make love with him all the time even though you have both decided to not have sex until marriage." We took the Myers Briggs test years ago, too. We have read lots of marriage books over the years and went to marriage counseling. None of it helped us become better marriage partners. None of them address the need for the Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honestly. None of them addressed the need to eliminate love busters. Very few of them address specific emotional needs. Very few of them address the protection of the marriage by living an integrated life where you spend all your best time together and no nights apart, or at least very very few. Our marriage became really wonderful when we incorporated MB into our lives. I'm glad you are both interested in learning now about Marriage Builders.
Married 1980
DDay Nov 2010
Recovered thanks to Marriage Builders
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Well, that is a very interesting point. I had never thought of that before. This is probably something many men have to learn, isn't it?
The thing that I think is NOT useful about abstinence is the emotional deprivation for the man. It is one of his needs, after all, and I think a very powerful one. My take is that that need should not be met for free, nor at a discount. Let me tell you that getting my need for sex met came at a high cost: not only did it require the formal commitment of marriage (i.e., actually being married), but it also required meeting my wife's emotional needs effectively enough that she is consistently above the romantic love threshold. I have to care for her, and not just make an effort, but do it effectively. It's a prerequisite, and a justifiable one: if this is missing, meeting my emotional need for sexual fulfillment is extraordinarily costly to my wife. Most women are this way: it would hurt them dearly to continue to meet the need for sexual fulfillment if the emotional connection is not there, i.e., a full account for their husband in the love bank. In order to be sustainable, meeting emotional needs in marriage has to be done so that neither spouse is getting his or her need met at the other's expense. It has to be done in a way that is a win for both husband and wife. So for example, the conversation has to be enjoyable for the husband, and the sexual fulfillment has to be enjoyable for the wife. For most women, this requires an emotional connection. My take is that if a man wants his emotional need for sex met, he should step up his game and be offering a lot: success in meeting his partner's emotional needs, commitment (i.e., marriage), and the prospect of enjoyment of the act itself. Most women would be a lot happier if they insist on this. And in my opinion, most men would find the sex more truly fulfilling, too. Here's a radio clip from Dr. Harley discussing whether or not premarital sex is really a good way to meet a man's emotional needs and get him to be in love with you - the answer might be surprising: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=940
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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It would be difficult to break things off. We have arranged to get married this August and the whole family and church have gotten involved - they have already gotten together and made plans and my parents have already spent money. I guess I underestimated the importance of a longer engagement, to really think things over. I know it is more important to really be sure you want to marry who you are getting married to than cancelling everyone's plans and plane tickets, but I still feel bad about it. I would hate to be a huge flake. Oh to be young again. This is your life. Marriage is easy to get into. Many of us are not really prepared for it when we are young. You really need to have the requisite skills, and tools to have a successful marriage. Marriage builders gives you the best tool kit for marriage that I have seen. But back to getting married. If you are not sure then you need to postpone. This is perhaps one of the most important decisions you will make in your life. You do NOT want to go through the pain and agony of a marriage break down. Everyone especially in the Christian community wants to be supportive of you getting married. However if you need to slow things down and change the date to later, they will get over it. Another thing I have been wondering - my fiance and I used to have our future jobs in common, but now we are in very different majors. We didn't really think about whether the other person was very interested or adept in our major before choosing it, but now we are in different fields and do not really understand each others work. I feel sad about this and I am worried that we won't have enough in common later down the road. What do you guys think? Is it important to be in similar jobs, or is it not very important? It has always seemed important to me, but I know a lot of married couples do jobs that are very different. Having the same jobs is perhaps not as important in my opinion as having a compatible view and approach to life and relationships. Are you best friends? Do you have mutual respect? Do you have the same goals and objectives for your lives? How do you view families and children? What about discipline of children? When will you BOTH want children? Have you had disagreements or fights? How were they handled and were they settled? Do you both employ the Principle of Joint agreement? Do you both embrace the principles espoused on Marriage Builders on how to conduct your relationship? There is no rush to get married is there? You are both young. I think Dr. Harley says to date 30 people before you decide to get married in order to help you determine the type of person you will be compatible with. One person I know says if you need a relationship you are not ready to get married. I would never recommend getting married because someone else is in a rush or if you are feeling obligated because of someone else, or if you are afraid of disappointing someone else. Marriage is between you and your potential spouse. I understand there can sometimes be a sense of family or church obligation, however I think we have transitioned from the past where marriage was often a business transaction, to one based on love, compatibility and mutuality.
Me 58 BS
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Thank you, everyone, for responding. We postponed the wedding and received an extremely negative response from my mother. We didn't get the greatest response from my father, either, so we are feeling a little down. Everyone else we talked to was supportive. It is hard when the parents react very badly, however, even when everyone else thinks it is probably wise to work through problems before marriage. I may not be on speaking terms with them for a while.
Their response has made us feel very blue. It isn't because we think they are in the right, either. It's just really hard to be punished for doing something like postponing a wedding. You would think they would think it wise. Not so, however. We have just been trying our best to carry on in spite of the negative response.
Any tips on being cheerful in the face of major parental problems? They would be much appreciated!
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I understand the need that you have for your decisions to be accepted by your parents. I had that same need for a long time, too.
The thing is - your parents won't affect your life as a married woman nearly as much as your husband will. Selecting a life mate is one of the most important decisions of your life, perhaps THE most important one.
I would not try and convince them. Just stick to your decision, knowing that it the wisest choice for YOU. They'll get over it. And if they don't? Well, postponing the wedding is still the wisest decision for you.
Married 1980
DDay Nov 2010
Recovered thanks to Marriage Builders
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FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Markos - Would you mind telling me how long you were dating and engaged before you got married? Finding another couple that stayed abstinent is so rare.
LongWayFromHome - I don't think I have a terribly strong need to be accepted by my parents. It would be nice, but many of my "big" life choices (not as big as getting married!) have been met with this kind of explosive negative reaction. It hurts, but I don't think that means I need their support. It would be hurtful for anyone, I think, and the fact that they are my parents just makes it more personal.
I am not speaking to my parents now. It is a little sad, but I think I need to take a stand and let them know that they cannot treat me with disrespect and still have a relationship with me. I have never sent that message before. They really take me for granted because I have been so gentle in the past. Well... The time to fight has arrived, apparently, because I can't take it anymore.
Relationship update! We are figuring out what quality time means to us. We found out that sometimes being in a coffee shop where there is distracting music playing and people everywhere is not always fulfilling quality time. We love reading together, talking together, cooking together, watching good TV shows together, and just sort of wandering around together. We have realized that some of the best quality time comes with uninterrupted time together with no one else around and no distractions. I particularly enjoy being with him in a home setting, just the two of us. No public eye, nobody watching or talking nearby, just us.
We have gotten through more than half of Love Busters and we have finished chapters 1 and 2 of His Needs, Her Needs. His Needs, Her Needs isn't completely helpful at this point because Dr. Harley talks about sex being the major man need a lot, and we are staying abstinent, but much of the book is still very helpful. Love Busters has been extraordinarily helpful.
Know that we read and discuss all of your posts and that no one's comments go ignored! I really appreciate all of you. Thank you!
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What did you and your fiance think of Dr. Harley's advice?
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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