I hate it when people act like my H's relationship with the OW, though it perhaps had an unfortunate beginning, is just as legitimate as any other relationship. She actually said to me, "You would want your children to be close to her, wouldn't you?" Of course I want my children to be close to a conniving, manipulative bi**** - she is a great role model for how to get want you want. <P>This same therapist told my H that he should apologize to our daughter for the fact that he had an affair, but didn't say a word about apologizing to me.<P>This weekend the OW took one of my kids clothes shopping and bought her a bunch of new clothes to wear at her house. Apparently what I sent isn't good enough. Why is the OW entitled to visitation?<BR>

Oh Nellie I don't know what to say except I am sooooo sorry. She is just trying to buy your daughter. <BR>In my eyes there is no legitimancy even if there is a divorce and a marriage when there has been an affair that person is well you know. Vent all you want I hear listening. I get so up set I can't think or type whne I hear about people like your therapist. What she/he said isn't helping you at all. <P>You have raised your children right, they know what is going on. Again she is trying to buy them and that doesn't work. It may drive you crazy(maybe that is what she is after) but you kids know, trust them, you have done a great job with them.<P> <P>------------------<BR>di<P><p>[This message has been edited by SDS (edited November 07, 1999).]

Oh, Nellie - I don't know what to say. What is the deal w/ that therapist anyway? <P>The OW isn't entitled to visitation, but your H is. And because you love your children, you have to suffer with it for their sakes. That sucks. <P>Your children will form their own opinions about OW. They won't see everything at first, but they always catch on. And you don't need to worry - they'll always have you as an example of a strong wonderful person. They'll be just fine.<P>Lori

Nellie,<P>Keep your head up high. I don't know the ages of your children, but no OP can ever replace their mother - YOU! I guess the staement aboutr wanting your kids to like her was supposed to mean in case your H and the OW ever got married and she was a step-mom???? Well, yur kids will make their own opinions of whether or not they like her.<BR>Curious, though - what did D think about OW buying her those clothes? Was she woo'ed or suspicious?<P>Roll Me Away

SDS and lostva,<BR>We have seen three therapists. I don't know which one was the worst. One my H hated, because he tried to talk him into committing to working on the marriage for a few weeks, and the other two were pretty awful. Apparently there is no right or wrong to therapists - it is whatever makes you feel good for the moment.<P>Roll Me Away,<BR>She bought clothes for my 7 and 3 year olds. The seven year old was pleased, apparently. The part that bothers me most is that my H didn't even accompany them on this shopping trip, and he's the one who is supposed to be having visitation. He was, my daughter said, too busy on the computer. My 13 year old son was offered new clothes, too, but he declined - and he could actually use some new clothes. I don't know why he declined, though it may just have been because he hates to shop. Two weeks ago she bought them nail polish etc. (not my son, obviously).

The sorriest thing here is that your H isn't enjoying the visitation time with his kids, instead of them going on shopping trips with OW!<P>Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers....<P>Roll Me Away

<B>BLECH!!!! </B><P>I am so sorry you're having to go through this. <P>I remember the last woman my H was fooling around with. She was on welfare, but she spent money I'm sure she didn't have on gifts for my children. I came home from work, and they said, "Look mommy, OW bought us nail polish and perfume and stuff!" (the girls were about 4 and 5, my son an infant). She (the OW) was my youngest daughters preschool teacher (how HANDY )so I didn't actually think that much about it.<BR>Of course, LATER I realized the truth of it.<P>I threw that stuff away, stomped on it, burned it, ran over it with the car.... <P>Now this should tell you something. The pain can come back even after all these years - a bit, anyway.<P>Again, so sorry, Nel... <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

He seems to want to visit them, but spends little time with the older ones at least when they are there. My son estimated that he spends less than one percent of the time talking with him. I asked him what percent of my time he thinks I spend talking to him, and he said over 50%! (Somehow I doubt that it is that high, but it is nice that he thinks so).<P>Sheryl,<BR>I wish I could drive over the d*** stuffed animal she gave my daughter for her birthday, but my daughter would be too upset. Everytime I see one of the things she has given them my stomach churns.

Nellie, I wonder how NSR (Jim) got a restraining order to keep OM from being around the house when his kids are visiting mom. You might check into that it might be worthwhile. At least it might work for a while. And it is good for young children to see them living together. Check into it. <P>------------------<BR>di<P>

SDS,<BR>I was told by a lawyer that I had almost no chance of preventing visitation at her house legally - since, as she said, "morality is not taken into account in this state".

Yuck and double Yuck!!!!!! Sounds like my state. We need to take morality into account all the time this workd would be so much better if we did. <P>------------------<BR>di<P><p>[This message has been edited by SDS (edited November 07, 1999).]

dear Nellie,<BR>know what you mean...this is another betrayal ...when others legitimize this behaviour. There is nothig one can do to stop the bimbos from being with our kids, buying them things that they do not need anyway (and not buying them what they do need!!!) I discussed this with my lawyer and she told me that this is not "bad" compared to many other things and nothing can be done. She told me that the kids have it all figured out anyway and know the value of bimbo vs mom!!!!<BR>I really had a problem with this until someone told me that even though the relationship is "pathetic" and they see H as having treated the whole situation so pathetically, human nature being what it is, no one wants to take a stand on morality or "hurt" h's feelings. What a crock of s***. <BR>I agree that it is time that people stop doing what is politically correct in a situation that is so morally wrong. That is why so many do not know wrong from right and have such blurred boundaries.<P>Unfortunately in a marriage there are 2 partners and when the marriage breaks up for WHATEVER reason, someone is therefore to blame...things do not happen in a vacuum and so children are the true victims in any divorce. (that is why your "therapist" was so non-judgemental towards you, but felt that H should apologize to d.) Society therefore looks at both spouses and thinks "leave us out of it, we do not want to take sides and we do not want to know what went on in the bedroom either" (even when the bedroom might not have been the problem)<BR>I have examined and read so much that I believe in a mid life crisis, nothing you or I could have done to change anything (unless our H's communicated the issues and were willing to let us in to help them get through this painful time) as we were to blame no matter what as to where they are in life. This is so unrealistic as is the affair (fantasy land) and it is only when they confront why they needed to go out there and behave the way they did and what inside of them is the problem , that can they begin to deal with the underlying problem<BR>This does not help us I know (desert island here we come!!!!), but there is nothing to be done.<BR>I know this is of no help, but I guess it is my 2 cents worth...to understand the mess and others reactions and interaction with all the parties. <P><BR>

I don't know if my first reply got posted, but here's one more thing. If you read the info on this website about Dr. Harley, you will see that there are many marriage therapists out there that are NOT saving marriages. He and his daughter and his son ARE. Maybe you want to consider using his son's phone counseling service at 1-888-639-1639.<P>Good luck and God bless!!

Nellie,<BR>I know your hurt. My w was in such a hurry to legitamize her relationship with om she tried to take om home to her parents to pick up our son. she caught her mother off guard awhen she told her she was bringing him that MIL didn't know what to say. Thank goodness between my screaming and my FIL refusal to allow him in the house that she went alone.<P>It was a short lived victory though in that a few weeks later they took him shopping and then I got to hear from my son how funny oom was and the nickname he had for him.<P>My daughter got to meet him too and wanted to go for a ride in his sports car.<P>I really fought to keep thsi from happening to no avail. I was given advice not to drive myself crazy over this as they would eventually meet the op, especially if we divorced. <P>I finally realized that this was true and basically accepted it. I think that was my only way to keep my sanity as this was all legal.