Hello again. I introduced myself in the thread Hello MB Forum, here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2798525#Post2798525

My husband wanted to read Create Your Own Plan &c. twice before we discussed it. I made sure he had time yesterday (Sunday) morning for the second reading so we could talk in the afternoon while the kids were napping.

DH had no thoughts to share, at first, so I reminded him that I would like to hear if he got anything positive out of the article. He did: he likes the Love Bank concept. Yay! He had the idea of taking a moment to tell each other what interaction made the biggest Love Bank deposit every day. Sounded good to me. We talked about it for a few minutes, me supportive all the way, and then I said I'd like to talk about a concern of mine (moseying towards Love Busters there). He balked. He felt his idea was plenty to have gotten out of the article, and he was satisfied that we would be moving forward with it.

I was not satisfied.

I said as much, and also that there were larger problems in our marriage than could be fixed with a brief (if pleasant) conversation every day. I said that I sent him CYOP&c. because I thought it would appeal and make sense to him, and because I hoped we might use it. Because I wanted our marriage to be our top priority for the coming month, and for that (I said), we needed a plan.

He could see that it was important to me, so he heard me out as I talked about the importance of overcoming LBs. I made it clear that I was willing to overcome mine. DH expressed reluctance.

I backed up a step and asked DH if he was willing to work with me to create a plan to improve our marriage. Yes, he was. I spelled it out for him that 'creating a plan' means that he will have to take my opinion about what's important to include in that plan into account. I asked if he was on board with that. He said yes.

So I said I wanted to start by killing off our LBs. DH got distressed. He did not want me to tell him what he was doing wrong or yell at him. I reassured him that I had no intention of doing anything like that; in fact, the next step I had in mind was to fill out our LBQs separately. Privately. And then after that, exchange them, and then create a plan to make sure that neither of us approaches a conversation in a hurtful way from then on. I was frustrated at this point because I would figure that reading CYOP&c. twice would have told him all of this. But I stayed calm and kind.

DH asked a few more questions about the LBQ, and then said that he does not have the emotional capacity to complete it right away, and would need about two weeks.

That's two weeks before he fills out the LBQ. JUST that! At this rate, it might be another week or two before we begin a conversation about LBs, let alone make a plan to overcome them. So that's more like a month before he's ready to do the thing that I scheduled this conversation to do yesterday. I said that two weeks was not an acceptable time frame. From my perspective (I explained), it's not two weeks. It's two MORE weeks. It's two weeks on top of all the time he's spent on other priorities since I first brought our problems to his attention. Two weeks from now will be seven months total, and that's too much. DH said it wasn't fair for me to say that he hadn't made our marriage his top priority. I walked him through each of the past six months and the excuses he had for each one--all the things he's put ahead of us, or accepted as a distraction. He said nothing to that, which is as close as he gets to admitting I'm right.

Then, after a minute, he said again that he does not have the emotional capacity to address my concerns at the level that I expect from him, and added (starting to cry) that he wished he did.

OK. It's not that he doesn't want to, he just can't. I was still frustrated, but the man was crying, and I'm his wife, and if capacity is the problem then that's what we will address next. I sympathized with him until he calmed down. Then I asked what he would need, in an ideal world, to build up his emotional capacity enough to complete the form in two days. He said: lay in bed for those two days. No work, no responsibility for the kids, no responsibilities of any kind. In isolation--he emphasized that. Have I mentioned that DH is an introvert? He reeeeeeally is.

Since he said he'd lay in bed, and he gets such poor sleep at night, I wondered if 'lack of emotional capacity' might just be lack of rest. I said I wanted him to do something (pause for emphasis): see a sleep specialist. He refused. After I explained my thinking he agreed to read an article on sleep problems I've been holding onto for a year, and he said he would do some research online.

That looked like about as much as I was going to get, so I asked DH what he would like to focus on for our plan. He went back to his idea about the Love Bank: telling each other a highlight every day. It seemed like an opportunity to start nudging the conversation in the direction of the POUA. I started talking about what kind of positive interactions (DH's phrase--he said he wanted more of them) might be good for each of us, and had just suggested that we would need to give each other more time when DH said that he was reaching his limit and could I wrap it up in the next ten minutes?

That right there is where I hit my own limit.

I can say that I refrained from swearing this time. I tried to keep my volume down, and think I did all right, but my tone... I know I sounded impatient and incredibly frustrated. I know I held up my notebook and said something about an entire page of notes with HIS ideas, HIS problems, HIS preferences, and NOTHING for me... and you're done, you're clearly done, ten minutes isn't going to help at all...

MB Forum... was I asking for too much? Too fast? Am I going about this in a bad way? What in the bleeding blue blazes do I do with this man?

One positive note: after we'd gone to opposite ends of the house for a while and were talking again, DH said that he wanted to return to the conversation tomorrow (today) and talk more about 'increasing positive interactions'. I agreed with that, and said that I wanted to keep it to just the two of us, no kids, and listed out the kinds of activities I would want to do (Aff, RC, IC, SF).

The problem I want DH to address is that talking with him hurts me. He contends (still) that he's not going to make any reasonable progress in that area, and hopes to maybe balance it out.

I don't know, folks. What are your thoughts?

I do write books, don't I? OK.

tl;dr
[too long; didn't read]

DH liked the Create Your Own Plan article well enough, but didn't actually want to use it to create a plan. He's overwhelmed by our difficulties and heartbreakingly reluctant to address Love Busters. He would prefer to do happy things together, but ran out of emotional energy before we could talk about a plan for that, such as the POUA.

We may talk more about that tonight, if he feels up for it.

I'm still really frustrated. This pace seems stupidly slow for a man who learned six months ago that his wife was out of patience.

How long are your talks?

That one was 90 minutes.

Tonight's was 30mins. DH and I both liked having a set limit, and are cautiously considering increasing it if talks go well for the next week.

ok, I would stop talking and start planning some fun. My husband could tolerate about ONE 30 minute talk every 5 years before he would run screaming from the room. That is pure torture.

Instead, put aside all that talk and see if will go out and have a hottie date with you.

I think your husband believes his marriage is a horrible place of drudgery where he is being asked to "work on" his marriage. Who would sign on for that? I would not. I want to do things that are fun and enjoyable. My H and I like getting dressed up and going out and having fun. That is the BEST TIME of our day.

That is what your husband needs in order to be attracted to the marriage. I would focus on being the most pleasant person on the planet, going out on fun dates with him. Make his marriage a fun place and he will be more inclined to get on board.

Part II (if I can manage it less wordy than Part I):

Tonight we set a timer for 30 minutes and the topic for discussion was creating a plan for UA time.

DH agreed to put a small number of hours per week towards his two favorites of the four intimate needs, IC and RC. We reached no agreement on Aff. He did not want to count SF towards this plan.

DH wants 4 hours total: two 1hr sessions sometime during the workweek, in the evenings, and one 2hr session on the weekends. I bargained for more time, and got an additional weekend session of 1hr. So that's 5 hours for UA that he can be enthusiastic about.

DH's reasoning: starting small brings a greater chance of success and therefore avoids creating a negative feedback loop when we fall short, as we surely would if we dropped a 15-hour chunk of new obligations into our schedule all at once. Also: he's getting enough SF, has always gotten enough SF, and if we put that in the mix there's a chance he'd forget about it altogether. He's trying to protect my interests by leaving it out of the UA accounting.

This is more success than I've had all year.

DH did look pretty tortured yesterday.

That doesn't make a lick of sense, but it is a good start! I think your relationship has become so negative for him that he views it as a yukky obligation. So I would start there and focus on being EXTREMELY PLEASANT! No more relationship talk. Do that for a couple of weeks and then go pitch him on upping this to 15 hours.

See, it should not be an "obligation" but his GREATEST REWARD. It is your job to change his view about your relationship.


Don't argue this point with him, but that makes about as much sense as a person with a serious infection who only takes 1/3rd the medication because "starting small brings a greater chance of success............." The problem is that "starting small" does not deliver results.

However, in your case, I think it gives you an opportunity to prove to him that you are serious about creating a passionate, romantic marriage.

His marriage is a place of horrible drudgery, eh? And a yukky obligation? That irked me, but you're right. That is how it is for him now.

Looking back, though... I was June Cleaver for five solid years, which is what he wanted. I liked it myself. He had everything you are proposing I give to him now. I know his ENs backwards and forwards, and I pulled myself right up to scratch to meet the ones that didn't come naturally. Housework comes to mind--I built a blessed library of advice books on that, and employed every one of them. I researched mops.

Dates? Outings? Fun? Yeah. We went apple picking, then we cut up the apples and I made pies. Amazing pies. I was into adorable hats before Kate Middleton made them cool. I even have cute maternity clothes. You see what I mean. I know exactly how to do what you're suggesting I do. I have done it. I made his marriage a paradise.

And it got me zilch.

Worse than that; it got me walked on, mistreated, and talked down to. And yet, you're right. My current approach is ineffective and totally sucks for him, and it's not how I should treat my husband. You are The person with advice on this forum, so I'll tell you what I need to know: assuming I pull myself together and get back on the Mrs. Cleaver routine (which I prefer, and hey, I'll even report in on how clean the house is), how do I get what I need from my husband?

Because just being pleasant, even when I didn't resent it, wasn't it.

I'm a bright girl. Show me a few more turns down this road.

.
.
.

Mm... and one more thing . You mentioned proving to him that I'm serious about creating a passionate, romantic marriage. Did you forget that I'm the one who needs sex in this marriage? I offered him romance tonight, after he told me that sex wasn't something he wanted on the UA schedule. He said he'd rather focus on 'platonic interactions'.

Melody he will get his needs met. You're really helping him out there, by making it clear just how far from pleasant I've gone. Now please help me.

Go back and read my posts. I have helped you.

I don't see that his marriage is a "paradise." It is a place of drudgery for him. I don't know what any of the above has to do with making your marriage a welcoming, happy place. What I do see is that you spend a very long time in marathon sessions talking about your "relationship" with him. This would drive anyone away.

Past tense. WAS a paradise, before I flipped out over not getting my needs met and getting slammed with disrespectful judgments daily.

As for making things welcoming and happy, that was my first priority. I ate a lot of dirt. And I was sweeter than any darn pie.

Was.

So, yes, I should go back to that. I've started. I'll finish. I'll wipe out all of my Love Busters and nix the massive relationship summit discussions, and sure all of them. Dates are a great idea.

I still want to know how to get what I need.

And I'm not "driving" him anywhere. He is no further or closer than he was before I made my first complaint.

Wifely sainthood: he does what he wants and gets what he needs.

Nasty wife with marathon relationship talks: he does what he wants.

So.. I go back to sainthood and then... what?

What's next? Is there any point in the plan at which I get a need met?

Does he want to be with you? No he doesn't. He has agreed to "endure" 4 hours a week but that is the most he can stand.


Let me know when you lose the snark and I will try to help. Otherwise, I am not interested in posting to you.

That is not snark. I was amazing at being a wife. It was my day job and I was proud of how good I was at it.

This



was unkind.

I... can't find a facepalm smiley.

Mel is right, though. It would be more unkind to see a glaring issue and not address it outright.

We can't do a darn-piddly-doo to change your husbands behaviors through your posts. But, folks CAN guide you to make the changes necessary to help YOU teach him to meet your needs.

Step 1; eliminate Demands, Disrespect, and Anger.

We're here to be honest, objective, and to the point. That doesn't equal mean.

You say you were a model wife. Does he agree with your assessment? Did he like taking walks in Apple orchards or did he go along with it because that's what you wanted to do? Spouses do go along with things that they don't enjoy but don't say anything because they want the other spouse to be happy.

I've noticed that you can be short with people that criticize you. Are you this way when your husband made complaints?

I agree with Mel. Keep the talks at 20-30 min. I and most men would space out and dread anything longer than that.

On a recent radio show the Harleys discussed the topic of "working on a marriage." Dr. Harley said that although they had and have a great marriage, they didn't "work" on it. They went out together a lot and had a lot of fun times together. If Joyce had told him it was time to sit down and "work on" their marriage, he said he would have not enjoyed that.

The main work in a marriage is building new habits that help make a marriage great and ending the bad habits that destroy romantic love. Once the new habits are solidly in place, the marriage doesn't really take any more "working on," other than making sure you are getting in the 15 hours of UA time, that you both enjoy it, and that it's the reward in your day.

The surest way to stop receiving much-needed help is to start bristling at the way that help is given. MelodyLane wasn't being "unkind." She was telling you the way your husband appears to think about the hours you spend together. From the way you describe his reactions, he does seem to dread the interaction. ML is a great poster with a solid knowledge of MB and is direct with her help.

Your "job" for now will be to make the time you and your H spend together very enjoyable. Go out on fun dates and do things you both enjoy. Make sure that you aren't doing any Love Busters.