The problem with a word like controlling is it can be used to describe pretty much anything.

Words like anger and insults are far more specific but you don't use those. Just vague ones.

I am sure your wife feels it is controlling when she is told how to think. That there is a 'right' way and a 'wrong' way to take things and that you know which is which and she doesn't. You are attempting to control how she thinks by either telling her to not ask questions or to take the answers the 'right' way. That's so you can carry on doing things without needing to take your wife's feelings into account.

If your interactions with other women' upset her you have four choices. 1) tell her you don't agree and carry on regardless. This will destroy your wife's love for you.
2) be dishonest about them, which will have the same result. 3) change your interactions so they are the same as when she is beside you and 4) try to convince her she doesn't know her own mind and control how she thinks so you can do as you please.

If you succeed in controlling her you will be able to as you please. I don't think you want to cheat either, I just think you want to ' win' this. But if you win control of your wife's mind, you will lose your wife.

It's actually pretty simple to take her concerns into account. So I would give serious thought to option number 3.

To answer some questions that came up -
I have done research on multiple sites and the signs of abusive spouse that are present in our marriage in addition to asking questions, jealousy and isolation (gets upset if I have to go to shops or host renters when homes are vacant) that I have pointed out are:
Verbal abuse - yells
Blames everyone else - she's hardly wrong
Gets mad and picks fights if she does not get her way
Belittles me for smallest of reasons.
To me and to "experts" out there, these are all abusive behavior by spouses.
By the way, people have pointed out on the board to change my interaction with other women. Most questions have been on co-workers. I cannot change who I work with at work. No reason to either. I have always worked in professional setting where women dress appropriately but she will find reasons to put them down for their dressing or thinks in her mind that they are not dressing up appropriately. Any reasonable person can see which questions are reasonable and which are not. One of my co-workers she saw a couple of times shopping and asked if she was married, had children, what her husband does. I can go on and on with her relentless questions to me.
Again thanks to everyone for responding.

I sound like you want out of your marriage and I guess you need us to validate your choice. When or if you ever want to save your marriage, we'll be hear.

You talk like "dressing appropriately" is an objective thing - right or wrong, black or white. In your way of thinking, if your wife thinks they are dressing inappropriate, but she is wrong, there is no problem.

But there is a problem - it bothers your wife! Living like this is what prevents romantic love in marriage. In order for romantic love to exist in marriage, husband and wife have to avoid behaviors that bother their spouse, and they have to avoid passing judgment on their spouse for being bothered.

Judging your wife for being bothered about something that's not really "wrong" is abusive, on your part.

Sir, the cornerstone of Dr. Harley's program is the Policy of Joint Agreement. Since you refuse to follow it, I predict you will continue to have an unhappy marriage.

Are you just here to complain or do you want to have a loving romantic marriage?

VickyVJ

I have been following your thread and I'm getting the impression what you are looking for is validation. I do not disagree with any of the advice you have been given. Should you choose to really give it some thought and try it, I believe it would be beneficial to you. However, I do think there is a little bit of double edged sword action happening here. My understanding is that you feel you are being treated unfairly by your wife. You've used the term abuse, but in my opinion that term is at times bandied about too carelessly, which is very unfortunate because it diminishes the seriousness of true abuse. The truly abused feel they have no power, whatsoever, to do or say, much less think for themselves. Are you completely powerless to your wife? If so, this shines a new light on your situation. Based on what you have posted so far, it sounds to me like your wife does some things that annoys you. You feel what you feel and no one has a right to tell you what you feel is wrong. I would suggest you give some thought as to why these behaviors of hers annoy you. Learning why we feel the way we do is an important step into finding solutions.

Not trying to step on any toes, just my 2 cents

Of course that should be eliminated and this program does that. Leave the room if she yells and tell her why later but that you will discuss anything calmly.

Same response to belittlement or blame.

But you are blaming her for some rather innocuous things too.



She has every right to her opinion - it doesnt have to be the same as yours. Stop trying to be the thought police and control her thoughts.

I have no idea why it matters to you what she thinks of other women. So what?

You are still being very vague about what she thinks of YOUR behaviour. Where are you going that she does not approve of? Why can't she go too? When you tell her about your interactions with women does she approve or disapprove? What are the things she approves or disapproves of?

What is your wife asking you to do? Find another job somewhere else or to stay at the workplace and change the way you behave?

The main problem I see is that you don't love her. She asks simple questions about your day and she gets attacked by the thought police. Most worryingly for her you don't care enough to share your day, your interactions with others or take into account her feelings.

You are secretive and surly. It would make anyone wonder.

As for the 'relentless questioning' - most people volunteer this information freely!

Your co-workers and your workplace is a huge part of the picture. Why are you not choosing to freely volunteer this information?

You know your wife is interested, that Honesty and Openess is clearly a key need of hers. Why when she asks you to meet this need do you refuse, forcing her to ask questions?

Demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts really are abuse! Some may disagree, but Dr. Harley classifies them that way, and so therefore so do we on this discussion forum. Dr. Harley discusses this in this article:

Am I Trivializing the Term [i]Abuse[/i]?

When Vicky's wife yells at him, calls him names, tells him what to do, etc., she is abusing him. There is no doubt about that. He should (respectfully) complain about this behavior and the negative effect it has on his feelings, and keep the problem on the front burner until it is resolved.

At the same time, desiring radical honesty in marriage, and expressing an emotional need for openness and honesty is NOT abusive - this is completely normal, especially for women! This is the foundation of what makes an integrated marriage. There is a lot to be gained from integrating with her and giving her this radical honesty and transparency. And feeling upset over how one's spouse treats the opposite sex is also very normal - there is a lot to be gained from adjusting to one's spouse and eliminating the behaviors that make them unhappy. When we are married, EVERYTHING we do has an effect on our spouse.


Well, feelings aren't wrong - and Dr. Harley says it's typically difficult to change feelings, and he doesn't agree with therapy suggestions to do so. It's very typical for a man to feel awkward about some of the integrated lifestyle most women desire in marriage. Many men can't see why it is important and would prefer to just take the shortcut of doing without it - which they feel would be no problem for them, and they don't see why it would be such a problem for their wife.

Those feelings shouldn't result in demands, disrespectful judgments, or angry outbursts, though. And one's spouse's needs and desires shouldn't be branded "abuse" or any other name just because the person can't see why their spouse would need them. There's no need for namecalling and there's nothing wrong with this wife's desire for her husband to stop certain behaviors with the opposite sex which are hurting her and to be open and transparent with her.

x2. Abuse is clearly outlined as DJs and AOs and MB doesn't condone it. There is no excuse if his wife is yelling. But needing O&H isnt abuse.

Being included in decisions about behaviour, and activities and being told detailed information makes women feel loved, secure and important. You get the impression from this poster that her perfectly ordinary needs are annoying and she is a nuisance. She is supposed to be silent until she is relevant. Poor girl.

I couldn't love anyone who didn't volunteer open and honest information. I would resent HAVING to ask questions. Much less being told my thinking was 'wrong' and that it wasn't normal. Of course I would ask a spouse about women in the office. Who wouldn't?!

He is so touchy about being asked things and he has said 'I have never cheated twice'. So what? How does that make him allergic to honesty?

This touchy response to a need for O&H would make anybody wonder. If his wife were posting she would have been told to hire the PI already.

All could be resolved by being open and honest but he acts like it is an insult and a constraint.

She is going to be the lady in the 'Why women leave men' article. Telling women it's not their business usually ends in the divorce court.

I have a lot to say but seems like whatever I say, people like Indiegirl will get offended because she just refuses to listen to what I am saying and instead she is making or assuming things. I have a suggestion to the posters out here who respond to posts, if you have not had personal experience on a topic, e.g. emotional abuse in this case, please don't act like you know it all because your answers seem like double-standard and elementary. Without knowing anything about the other person you defend her/him. I have done a lot of research and the opinions here are not shared anywhere else. Thank you all.

Almost all of us here have experienced bad marriages including emotional abuse.

Also, since the purpose of this forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders concepts (i.e., Dr. Willard Harley's standard marriage advice for various situations), most of us have studied abuse in great detail under his tutelage.


Dr. Harley is decidedly out of the mainstream on some of his opinions. Also, he is decidedly out of the mainstream in that his counseling approach actually leads to happy marriages, whereas most marriage counseling has a dismal failure rate.

Dr. Harley formed his opinions with a scientific approach: he studied good marriages. Most people out there are pushing their own opinions - and they usually don't know what makes a marriage work.

I don't think indie is offended. I could be mistaken.


Seems like the main person not listening here is you, Vicky. This is a site where people come to get help with Dr. Harley's approach. Why would you expect to hear anything else? If you are here to straighten the rest of us out, you're in the wrong place - those of us who have tried Dr. Harley's approach in our marriages have liked the results.

I'm happy to say neither my wife nor I abuse each other any more!

I doubt Indie is offended. She would say if she was. She, like the rest of us, have been through a horrible marriage in which a lot of emotional abuse was present. So to give us advice on what to post about is an assumption on your part and leaves you with disregarding potential helpful advice. Just because you do not agree with what we have to say, does not make it incorrect.

I agree with what Indie has stated. You should not put up with verbal insults under any circumstance. However, if your wife feels a certain way, it does not mean it is incorrect. People feel how people feel and it is disrespectful to try and correct how your wife feels.

The question is are you willing to have an open mind to receive help? The posters posting to you have navigated through bad marriages and are now living in successful, fulfilling marriages.

If you don't like the advice a specific person gives, there is an ignore feature - you can click a user's name, select "view profile" from the drop down menu, and then click "ignore this user."

Requests for people to NOT post Marriage Builders advice are typically not honored around here, and shouldn't be.

Usually if there's a post that really bugs you - it's because there's something really valuable there that you need to pay attention to. I am very thankful that many of the good people here bugged me years ago.

There is a lot of room for assumption because your posts are very vague.

Usually when people are vague it is because they only want to present the sides of the argument which will get them the responses they want. However all this will earn you is assumptions.

You have the same problem at home. You don't give your wife the full picture so she is forced to make assumptions about you. If you give her the facts, she won't have room for assumptions.

This program would encourage your wife to stay calm and so encourage you to be honest with her without any punishment for telling her the truth.

Wouldn't that be better than the current situation?

I apologize, you're right. Those things are abusive. I said what I did because there are contradictions in Vicky's posts, ie, in one he said his wife is yelling and demanding, in another he said she was asking questions. The examples of the questions he gave didn't come across as demanding to me, but as inquiring. Though if she is yelling the questions and demanding the answers that changes the dynamic.



Piecing together from what Vicky has posted so far, sounds like Vicky is acting with Independent Behavior and while she obviously has a need for Openness and Honesty, his wife is using abusive methods to obtain it.



Clarification please.....do you believe Vicky's wife is or is not being abusive toward him?

Vicky should not dismiss his wife's need for O&H, much less belittle her for having the need, however, if she is being abusive in order to get him to meet that need, that would cause severe withdrawals from his LB and explain his reluctance to meet her need. Especially since he is brand new to any of these concepts.

You catch more bees with honey than vinegar. I just think since the goal is to enlighten Vicky on the value of MB principles, we need to show him by example. IMO, Vicky has received some disrespectful judgments here, while being told he needs to stop disrespectfully judging his wife.

tamak

whether his wife is abusive or not is not the as important because she is not hear to get help, he is. Instead of him listening and working to change what he has control over he is spending his time vilifying his wife. I don't think he actually wants to get help and according to him he is an expert and we are wrong.

We can't put any more into a cup that is full.

We never said to him that it is ok for his wife to abuse him just that the things he considers abuse seem like reasonable requests from his wife.

I don't think he wants to be married to his wife and would like our blessing on it for some reason, because of his failure to answer questions and the amount of time he has spend attaching his wife.

He feels he doesn't have to be totally honest with his wife the fact that she keeps asking him questions makes him feel attacked.

life4799

I went back and reread some of the thread to see if I misinterpreted some things. Its possible. I have a tendency to root for the underdog. I didn't mean to be argumentative or derail what others are trying to do to help Vicky. I do agree with the advice given. I apologize if I gave a different impression.