I'm posting in this section to perhaps gain some perspective.

I have a beautiful 33 year old daughter. She has dated a guy for 10 years. He's the same age. To me they have not really dated. Early on they lived together--- but not now. Also early into their relationship he two timed.

Her boyfriend started undergrad late and will graduate this week. They talk of marriage and a family all along but this BF consistently has good reasons to postpone making definitive plans. Basically he is waiting for the perfect job, buying a house and so on. He's not ready. He doesn't seem realistic or willing to pay his dues in the job market. These last two college years he seems more a dependent of my daughters resources while projecting some kind of future that will evolve ---always later.

My daughter was hanging on and waiting until he graduated. I believe she understood they would make plans for a wedding, etc when he graduated.

He has just decided to take a "5th semester" which apparently means he'll be in school both summer and fall sessions. This is what is raising a red flag for me: he claims he'd mentioned these plans prior. My daughter does not remember a discussion.

So on Mothers Day I'd asked her how things are going. She'd just learned of this 5th semester. He's apparently buying more time, using financial aide and continuing to wait for a perfect job. And he's also thinking about other programs.

I mentioned to my daughter that it seemed they were living a life style where they are becoming incompatible. I explained a little about MB concepts. She became defensive and said I was being negative and she didn't like they way the conversation way going. I said I am just sad about the disappointment she must fee. I really have to be careful.

What strikes me is how unhappy and negative she is. I have a hard time being around her. Typically she strikes me down and projects her negativity. Too me she seems really unhappy about her life style and exploitation. I believe this BF is a freeloader.

I feel helpless in this situation. She's an adult that is having a hard time letting go of a dream that is likely over. as she has invested so much time already.

We rarely see this BF. We don't even hear much about him. Oddly my daughter, BF and BF family act like we are already connected through marriage as they expect us to already treat this guy like our son with unconditional love and support.

Given my time around MB I see all this as a recipe for disaster. I'd like to spare my daughter, tell my daughter what I've learned and so on, but its really hard.

Any thoughts or ideas are appreciated!

How sad. It must kill you watching this. I know it would me bother me. I predict he will dump her in the future because he is a relationship freeloader. If I were you, I would buy her the book Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders and just tell her that it hurts you to see her so unhappy. Tell her you won't say anything more about it, but that you will be there for her in the future.

graceful, I feel for you. I read an article last week that said women in America are better off raising children alone because men don't stick around to raise their kids. It's so sad because I know it doesn't have to be like this. I like how the Harleys take their Midwest values that are shown to create stable families that last a lifetime and try to spread them to the larger audience.

Buy her this book. Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

Thank you for your feedback! Yep, I did buy this book (B,R,F) a couple years ago. My DD became defensive and left it behind. I actually feel she hides behind this relationship and creates an environment where she does not readily move forward.

I think you are right Melody, I need to be there for her.

We are attending this BF graduation and the after party with his family. The event which is monumental to their family is meaningless to us.

My husband says he is going to talk with BF and directly ask him about future plans involving our daughter. He's going to suggest he let her go for now.

YEs, I like the values of MB too. I know our daughter wanted to be married and have children by now. A stable home to raise children. She has so far chosen poor material.

You daughter knows what you think, so now is the time to back off. Don't insert yourself into the coming conflict. Instead, be a rock. Be your daughter's source of unconditional and nonjudgmental support. She will turn to you when she needs to if she knows that you are a safe haven from the storm.

I'll remain an active listener. I'll be friendly and courteous towards her BF and his family. But I won't become overly familiar at this point.

graceful

So sorry to hear you are going through this. I too hate watching people I love make bad choices. I find when my friends are addicted to someone it is very hard to confront them directly. I give people gifts of books to support their choice.

To your daughter for instants I would say something like, "I so want you guys to move to the next step, and I think this book will help you know how to do that?"

Anything other then support will make her defensive and may force her to hang on longer to prove you wrong. Plus, she may see it as a demand, disrespectful judgment and/or an angry outburst (if you get passionate), which she may perceive as you trying to control her.

I let them start seeing the things I see as they learn on their on. I would apologize to her about being push and invite her to study the book together. I usually work on a time to take through out the book. Buyers, renters & freeloaders is a good book for you to read as well, so you both can share things you are learning together. If I'm unable to set a time, I just call or text them and as what did they think about the first chapter, which starts them reading if they haven't started.

My daughters form of defensiveness is about her perception of herself as 'on top' or the expert in a given situation so she 'one-ups' at the littlest inkling of myself showing care... as in reflective listening or empathy... towards her vulnerabilities. She does not want to be viewed as failing or a victim. My husband at times walls me off like this too. Pride. Its an avoidance tact.

I have the book Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders. I offered it to her a couple years ago as a suggested reading for generalized knowledge in regards to what to keep in mind while participating in the dating scene. She dismissed it.

Still, I've weaved into conversations the types of relationships we're observing, say while watching a movie together or doing some creative craft thing. The info is layered in without setting her off as in: lecturing/educating her or wagging a finger at her and her relationship w/BF. I've not brought the subject up myself nor belabored the issue when she volunteers. Its the elephant in the room that quickly expands with the lightest most gentle touch. Suggesting we read B,R,F w/chapter discussions would kill us at this point in her adult life.

life4799,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I've gone through that teenager phase where they rebel to separate from you. Her defensiveness now is different as I've described. I would not call my interactions pushy. Given its a walk-on-egg-shell issue for DD, tells me she's struggling.

In my experience with my DD, I have to use economy of words and actions to express my concerns. We'd talked Sunday. Yesterday my husband heard her talk to her BF and confront his gas lighting. I'm glad she felt empowered to handle this. I'm glad I let her know I cared when I did. She makes me suffer for it a bit initially but often uses our struggles to go forward eventually.

G2B,

I have an adult daughter, too. She's married with several children and is a really neat person. Yet there have been times I have seen her behave in a hurtful way either towards her husband or her children and have to bite my tongue.

My H and I have had to be VERY mindful of how we speak with her. In general, we do not offer advice of any sort unless either of them specifically asks for it. Sometimes we have advised without being asked if the action is very particularly one that we think is so bad that to NOT speak will be a problem, but that's pretty rare.

The problem is that unasked-for advice is most often ignored and even resented. It comes across as criticism, almost no matter how you frame it, and makes it difficult for the hearer when the time comes, as it probably will, when she is proved wrong and has to come back to you.

Now the upside to the relationship we have with our daughter and her family is that she finally opened up to me one late late night a couple of years ago when her youngest baby wasn't sleeping and actually asked me for guidance in her marriage. I was able to gently introduce MB principles and she and her H have been exploring them ever since. We discuss them every so often but only here and there so as not to overwhelm her or turn her away with our enthusiasm.

It's really tough to stand by and watch, seemingly helplessly, but keep watching and waiting and praying, and the hour will eventually arrive when she will come to you for your wisdom.

Thanks long way from home. I agree about unsolicited advise. Its offensive to have it dished out and be the receiver. Good boundaries between an adult child are important. Its as important to me as I believe is necessary for her.

My father was vociferously opposed to my dating WXH and certainly went too far. He was argumentative and it just raised all that was stubborn in me. He never made calm cool points that would resonate later when I was alone - as logic always does. Now of course, I think he is a genius!

I think your technique is a good one, that most certainly would have raised the right alarm bells with me.

I think you should just make it clear that you would like her to be his priority over all this other stuff. That she should have been a decision partner when he took on another semester.

Introducing these ideas will certainly cause conflict with them, rather than with you, because it's just a thought of yours, you're not hectoring anybody.

Who knows, he might he even rise to the standard expected of him.

I really like the idea of her father asking his intentions too. Every girl wants her dad to be protective and it gets over the message how worried you both are without involving her in a confrontation.

She may make a little noise afterwards but all he has to say is: 'I was hoping he could reassure me'. With a disappointed face, if he did not.

Thanks IG.

Her Dad is a chronic IBer, whom seems to be trying to reform but stuff pops up and I have to complain. DD witnesses this and will witness the affect on me and the attempts to gaslight, blame shift or cover his tracks.

Example, yesterday I found out thru a third party a new piece of equipment was soon being delivered. I had not known this equipment had been ordered. We'd had some casual discussions at one point about buying the equipment and the benefit of purchasing the equipment. I am in support of the purchase of the equipment. Unfortunately we are not prepared financially to purchase the equipment immediately. And I pay the bills. I've been feeding my husband info about our financial situation and even talked about stalling purchase of other equipment, but he had not ever brought up the subject he'd actually had the equipment ordered. When I received the vendor call about delivery yesterday I was really disappointed. I do not want my daughter to view this as normal and OK. Because of me she does see through it and is stressing. Who wants to be manipulated?

Your DD's situation really reminds me of a friend. She had been living with a man a few years and he would keep promising to propose, then would put it off. He'd say: " I'm going to propose after Xmas" but then Easter would come and go.

She is an amazing catch and their relationship was great, so she just expected him to do the logical thing.

It turned out he had another girl on the string and couldn't decide. Since he has two timed your DD already, is it worth having him followed a few days?

I'm going to said friend's wedding in August though ( different guy). She figured it out with no intervention!

What do you plan to do if he persists in IB? It's all very well telling her it's not OK but what example will you give her if it remains unchanged?

Hi Indie,

In this case yesterday, as soon as I understood the equipment was ordered/being delivered I went to my husband and expressed my disappointment. I called him on the stories he was telling himself and then to me. I expressed my concerns regarding our cash flow and the timeliness of ordering when the resources were limited. I told him how this type of dishonestly is a big problem for me. He apologized and called the vendor to ask about returning the equipment. We agreed the person who orders supplies would need to run the PO's by me for authorization in the future as husband is less tied into our finances.

You might say the plan for the future is to complain w/o LB and encourage collaboration.

It seems that you applied the POJA here and it worked.

Yes Jedi. That's our intent. Our DD is in proximity. We are facing down life long habits to be sure.