Hello MB members,

I am a Husband in a 16+ year marriage with 3 kids (4yr boy, 6yr boy, 9yr girl). I am 47 and my wife is 39.

We have been in counseling since April 13. Once a week for each of us individually and once as a couple.

We are struggling and I need some feedback and support. I need to know where I am really doing wrong so I can fix it and how to cope.

I will fill in the details in a series of replies to this subject to give a full history and detailed explanation of things. I know it will be long and I probably should apologized for that right now. It is hard for me to not give detail especially if I expect well thought out responses based on what the situation is.

Let's start with some general history of our early courting to marriage in my next reply.

Let's start with Background Info on challenges of our different personalities:

Let me first describe me: I am a Christian so this will in general help you understand some of my core beliefs. I am a detailed sort of guy, work in Information Technology world, so I have to pay attention to detail... I classify myself as slightly introverted in that I think before I speak and I do better in small groups than larger groups. Although anyone that knows me more than 5 minutes would probably say they don't believe I am introverted since I can easily carry on very long meaningful conversations and talk for hours. I just have to force myself at times to get going. Once I know you for just a bit no problems. Anyway... I am a guy that uses humor a lot to break the ice and when I was single it was my way into drawing a female to me. Now let me move on to some background...

When I met Kelly she was very outgoing and forward. This is part of what attracted me to here. I think most men would be attracted to someone who gives them attention and engages them in a way like they were already best friends.

Let me give an example. She was so forward that one of the first things I remember was meeting her after choir practice. I was quiet and she just started talking to me like we were already close friends. This was different as I had never met another female that was like this. She was truly the first I had met that was this forward. It wasn�t long after talking she said she was going to go get something to eat and invited me to eat with her. At the time I didn�t know she was actually dating someone... had I known this I would have said no as I would have found this to be wrong or at the minimum not wise.

95% of Kelly�s friends were men. She only had a couple of girls that were friends. There may have been others, but these are the only few I really ever met or heard about. Other than this there were numerous men.

I was 8 years older than Kelly (21) and me (29) so she was living at an age that I had already gone through. The college years, the party years, the we are all living free and footloose, the time where no boundries really existed between guys and girls. A time where relationships easily jumped from one person to the next. Ultimately I had gone through all this and personally was looking for settling down and meeting someone who I could develop a best friend relationship and then see where it goes next. I was not looking to have 20 close girls as friends, but to develop something unique.

I quickly realized she mostly had guy friends and she stayed over at this group of guys home most of the time. I specifically recall Kelly literally wrestling on the bed with one of the guys.

I also realized one of the guys she hung out with was a guy she had dated as well.

During these early weeks I saw a lot of things that concerned me in regards to male / female relationships and I remember thinking that if things moved forward between the two of us I would have to see how she changed her relationships with males when she entered into a dedicated relationship.

At some point, I don�t recall when, probably early on that she was actually dating another man who was going to an out of state college so was not in town and had not been in town since I met her (couple of months). I remember being very disappointed in hearing this, but she painted a picture to me of a relationship that was on the outs and appeared to be near its end. I had to make a decision at this point. Do I end any sort of relationship with her or do I just distance it and disengage my already building feelings and be only a friend.

I was actually still in the process of trying to come to grips with the what I had heard about her relationship when Kelly found out that her boyfriend had cheated on her and got another girl pregnant. I will call this �The first betrayal�. What do I mean by this? This is the first time (at least while I knew Kelly) that she witnessed an unfaithful act in the confines of a relationship. And this was against her.

Maybe I became the rebound guy... I don�t know... I do know that I did make a conscious decision to see how our relationship would play out and see if it would grow. Still watching how her relationship with other men changed or not changed as we grew closer over time. Heck� when single I am very flirty with women and very playful and had no problems hanging out with opposite sex friends together� but as I entered a serious relationship that changes things for me.

Over the coming months our relationship grew and we became more serious and decided on an exclusive relationship. I don�t recall the exact time of this. It was only a couple of months of hanging out I believe.

As the relationship grew there came a point where she told me she loved me while on a trip to the beach with some friends. I wasn�t certain I was at the same point she was with the �love� thing. Feelings were strong and to be honest I took her I love you response as more of a puppy love or infatuation as I don�t believe she had met anyone like me either.

Our relationship grew stronger, but before I could go further I knew we needed to discuss what we expected out of a relationship long term and how did we see relationships with the opposite sex change if at all.

Over time I did my best to make it clear that I would not be going out with other women in any capacity. If I was in a serious relationship and wanted to see if it led to a long term commitment of marriage I would not be growing relationships with other women. This really wasn�t too difficult as I only had a few girls that were friends. I had many more when I was 8 years younger, but being older I had built more relationships with men.
I don�t recall the exact timing of everything, but at some point Kelly decided she wanted to take a break from dating me. I believe her words was that she felt �smothered� and needed some space. As I look back on why she wanted to do that... the only thing that I can recall she articulated was she was struggling with the relational boundaries with other guys.

Several weeks later we picked up our relationship. The way she described it to me was she wanted to develop the relationship and try to grow it.

A big point of contention was the relationships with other males. It became clear if I could not become �OK� with her close male relationships that I would lose her. Maybe this was a time where I should have exited the relationship as I could NOT see an eventual marriage with a women who in the end wanted to keep close male relationships, go to movies with them, go to their house and stay with them, and have regular physical contact (ie Wrestling around and so forth).

Instead I decided maybe I was fundamentally flawed and I was wrong to want to have a relationship heading to marriage that would minimize the opposite sex relationships. For me I could not ever see myself building close relationships with other women while in a serious relationship much less marriage, but perhaps I was wrong. So I spoke with Kelly and told her I would try to basically except those relationships and accept them as if they would always be there. I recall this sort of being an ultimatum to me. Either I accept these relationships and never expect them to change or the relationship would end.

My goal was to try and build stronger relationships with the guys and be close friends with them, possibly closer friends than Kelly. Heck maybe they would themselves build what I would consider appropriate distances from Kelly since they would know me well and Kelly. Looking back I should have realized I could not become best friends with every new male friendship Kelly would build or have.

I even apologized to a couple of the guys for trying to pull her away from their friendships and that I wanted to build relationships with them. None of them felt I was taking her away... they all said they understood. The guys were not bad guys at all... the whole issue for me was proper boundaries, but at this point I was trying to see if I could grow and change by allowing someone I was seriously dating to have whatever male relationships she wanted.

I can�t recall if it was weeks or several months, but there came a point where I decided I could not do this. I was going to lay it all on the line to Kelly and end the relationship as I knew I could not do it. In my heart I knew there had to be solid boundaries and I could not see being married while my wife was continuing to build strong relationships with other men... misleading other men as I believe a very forward open women could unknowingly do. I do realize there are marriages where both the husband and wife are very outgoing and have close opposite sex friends so I want to avoid saying it is WRONG... but for me it is not right.

So I spoke with Kelly... very emotional for me as I thought it was over... I shared that I just could not do it. I could not see the relationships she was having with other men as something acceptable to me as a long term relationship head towards possible marriage. I thought it was over with and the relationship had came to an end, but Kelly surprised me and in the end she seemingly accepted that those relationships would have to change if we were to grow closer and move to the next stage.

At the time... I think I felt I was accepting a lie. I just recall having feelings that she just is not wired this way and why would she ever change her relationships. But instead I ignored this feeling to see where it would go.

Over the coming months we had tough conversations about the subject, there were times she did things that went against what she agreed she wanted out of a relationship. But I did see her growing and I looked at it as me watching her grow as a young woman... something I had already grown through.

Our relationship continued to grow, but I remember an incident where Kelly was going to need a new place to stay while at college. We were basically seeing each other each weekend and sometimes met for dinner half way since it was only an hour drive. Anyway, she had approached me about moving into a coed house where they had shared bathrooms, shared living space, shared kitchen... really the only non-shared area was the bedrooms. I had seen this situation in the past when I was younger and I knew this was not a good situation for a young Christian woman to be in... but I know selfishly I did not want her in this situation... Christian or not. In the end she agreed to not do it, but at the time I had to convince her of it. She ended up with several girls which I believe was more appropriate.

Our relationship continued to grow and Kelly�s relationships with men did appear to be changing. Maybe in part since we spent a lot of time with each other and she didn�t have the same time available to spend it with other men.

There were still many discussions about relationships as we continued to grow. I think it came up many times for the fact I did not want to spend more time in a relationship that was not going to be right for me if it led to marriage. I guess it was more of a reality check to see if we were on the same page.
There was a time where a big discussion took place in regards to two boys that were apparently very close male friends of Kelly�s. Kelly always described these guys as her cousins when they were discussed, but I soon realized they were not cousins and at least one of them did not think of Kelly as a cousin relationship, but someone who wanted to have a more intimate relationship with her. We were looking at some pictures and this became obvious based on what the man wrote on the back of her picture. Ultimately Kelly admitted he probably had more feelings for her than just friends. This will be important later as I share about a Facebook incident after we were married 10+ years.

In the end I requested Kelly distance this relationship... I may have even wanted it to end. I didn�t want Kelly to be harsh or mean with them... I had just wanted her to share with the boys that she was in a serious relationship and she couldn�t have the same type of relationship she once had. I witnessed the phone conversation she had... I do recall I thought it could be handled better. I am sure Kelly was trying to prove something to me, but I wanted the boys to understand why the relationships couldn�t stay the same as it was. I really do think how it came across was a bit abrupt, but in the end I did want that relationship to not be the same as it was. I did feel guilty how it happened though... it was executed poorly as she really did NOT give them clear reasons as to why.

We read several books about relationships and marriage together. I recall one about the 5 love languages and one about marriage and a study on the Song of Solomon... one specific area about protecting a marriage.

Sometime in October of 97 we had a big disagreement. I can�t recall exactly what it was. The primary issue I ever had was about proper boundaries so that is probably what it was about. I was thinking long and hard about our relationship and in the end I loved her and was willing to work through our issues together. So on October 31�st I asked her to marry me while at the church up at the altar. I told her I knew we had some struggles, but if I was going to have struggles in life that I wanted to work through them together with her.

We did not go through premarital counseling and looking back we should have. I don�t know how it would have changed things... meaning would we have NOT gotten married or would we just had some counseling to deal with some of the issues we both had prior to marriage. Not sure what it would have led to.

Over the years one of our core relational struggles is what are proper boundaries for our marriage with others in general as well as the work place.

In my workplace I NEVER seem to be put into a place where I would choose something that goes against something we have previously agreed upon or get put into a position where I have to think should I do this or allow this or whatever. It�s just simply never an issue.

Well actually... I have had one girl who was going through divorce and would come to my office to talk. Here is EXACTLY what I did:

First I immediately told Kelly of the situation.

I would always make sure my door was open and usually got up and stood in the hallway where others could see us.

I NEVER went to lunch or took phone calls.

I directed her to go to her pastor if she had one and if not I told her my wife would be willing to talk with her. I basically tried to guide and share wisdom, but direct her to a more appropriate place than myself as a husband to my wife.

Ultimately I think she either worked through it or got help as she didn�t continue to seek me out as I made sure I always directed to the Bible, God, Pastor, my wife.

However in Kelly�s first workplace �the hospital� it seemed men felt free to place their hands on other women�s shoulders and also do a tremendous amount of flirting. In the early stages of this job we talked a number of times about what was ok for us and what was not.

What was NOT ok was men placing their hands on Kelly in any way shape or form. Although we agreed on this I was never entirely sure Kelly was ok with it and now I am even less sure.

What was also not ok was going to lunch with another guy, multiple guys or in general coed lunches (other than required business lunches that happened time to time just as a part of the job). I know the coed lunches may be a hard pill for some to swallow and think I am controlling... what I am talking about is the same group of people going out all the time and being lunch buddies. We have both witnessed this situation and seen affairs grow out if it.

They had a common lunch room where they all co-mingled as it was. We have a lunch room at our office, but I have only on a couple of occasions stayed in there as it was usually only a couple of guys and the reset women. I just avoided it. I believe this was Kelly�s going out to lunch with everyone time since the only difference was they were in the office and not leaving the building.

In the end I just asked questions every now and then about lunches and how they went just to keep communication open and make sure no red flags popped up. I never really felt comfortable with how that worked.

Kelly told me of times where someone would try to rub on her shoulders and she took the stand to tell them that was personal space between herself and her husband. I have had no reason to not believe her. Other than when she has lied and been found out... then it makes me doubt everything.

She also told me of times where a group would be going to lunch and she either ate in the cafeteria or made other plans or ate lunch with me. I had no reason to not believe her.

There were times where many of them wanted to go out to dinner where many would be drinking it up and she had never gone or asked me to go. Just not our scene.

Overall it took time to establish the boundaries, but there did come a point where I felt comfortable that we were on the same page.

Over the years we had various friendships. We did however build friendships with one couple where the wife was more reserved like myself and the husband was more like Kelly. This friendship at times generated some conflict. I know the man and he loved flirting with women and he definitely found my wife attractive (he told me). Many times he would try to arrange it so he and Kelly would be alone... like saying they would go pick up some items for a picnic together or whatever. With Kelly�s outgoing nature there was times you would wonder who the couple was on an outing. I tried to explain to Kelly how her forward nature with him was not a good choice and that it created uncomfortable situations for myself and probably for his wife. The other wife never directly said it, but many times you could see the wife�s discomfort when he talked with other women in a more flirtation way than he did with his own wife. I guess the point I am trying to make is between the two of them it made for a very uncomfortable situation and to the point I felt I had to keep an eye out. This man made many comments about other women, how he found them attractive and loved talking to some of them. I did try to discuss this with him in general and how it may make his wife feel and how his desires were not God centered. But in the end he didn�t seem to think it was a problem since he always came home to his wife and nothing �ever happened�.

I sometimes feel this is what my wife believes about male / female relationships. She was very much like him in nature and I find it can be very dangerous in the marriage relationship to act as he was.

We had another set of friends. The wife was more like me. She tended to be reserved, but once she knew you then she was very open like I am. I am quieter in groups, but in small close knit groups I feel more free to be talkative and open. But I have ALMOST always kept proper boundaries. The one time I feel I had not kept proper boundaries is with this wife. Because we both had struggled with our spouses on issues and both have struggled with broken trust by our spouses. I found myself drawn to discussing things with her due to the common struggle. We never spent time alone, we never allowed a line to be crossed, BUT I was very aware of the closeness I felt from someone else who understood my pain and struggles. Because I recognized this I made a choice to not grow conversations with her that built a common bond between us and kept that distance. I shared this with Kelly. It never seemed to bother her and she always seemed to believe nothing could ever happen. This bothers me as her confidence in nothing will ever happen has been the downfall of many, many couples.

Kelly took on a new job. This of course made me a little nervous as I knew if men there were flirtatious or touchy with women that she would have to make the same stands she did in her last job. What I didn�t know is if she would or would not. In the long run I think she made some stands as I don�t recall this period of time being as difficult as what it was in her first job. Partly because we had gone through it before and partly because she was older and I felt maturing in our relationships. I believe there might have been one issue at work and I believe she handled it, but left the guy sore about the situation. Either way I didn�t care if he was sore about it, but that my wife took a stand.

At some point Kelly returned to her previous job and we talked about having the same boundaries as always. I felt since she had worked here before with many of the same people we would have few issues.

Going back earlier in our marriage Kelly had a very close relationship with a couple that mentored her. She would have probably told you she thought they had a great marriage and things were going great. The female was very much like Kelly. Very outgoing, very talkative, and so on. Over time of me knowing this couple I noticed the female had several male friends at the church. One friend was with the pastor of the church. About a year before anything was ever revealed I told Kelly that I felt there was something going on that should not be going on between them. All of the signs were there, lots of hugging, sitting arm in arm, constantly talking with one another (like I have seen Kelly do with other men in the past), basically looking like they are close friends if not best friends. I told Kelly multiple times there was something going on and then it came out that they were having an affair and a church ended up splitting... not necessarily due to the affair, but what it led to. I consider this as �The Second Betrayal�.

If you recall I talked about �The First Betrayal� where Kelly was cheated on and this being the second where a trusted friend and mentor cheated on her husband. I look at these as milestones in someone�s life that should, in my mind, lead to some changes in relationships with the opposite sex.

Through this disaster it opened up more discussions in our relationship about not becoming that couple. By not allowing relationships with the opposite sex to grow or to be overly friendly with the opposite sex and building a friendship that could eventually become a replacement source of worth or love should we ourselves be going through a rough patch.

There were several other situations similar to this where I discerned something was going on with other couples and I was correct. These led to what I call �The Third (and more) Betrayals�. Basically life experiences that Kelly either directly was involved in or was close to. Each time something like this happened I truly felt these experiences solidified our path as a couple to protect our marriage as best we could, avoid unnecessary situations with the opposite sex, avoid situations where we had witnessed or seen others fail... those we thought were strong.

I will stop here as this is a good background. My next post will give some basic beliefs on opposite sex friends from my perspective and then I will provide a history of our experiences leading up to resentment and bitterness on my part and my pulling away or worse pushing her away.

Welcome to MB!
Does your wife still have opposite sex friendships?

There's really no need for so much back story. It's natural for women to compare and contrast pre-marriage and while OS friends are not appropriate post-marriage, it's not clear whether this problem is still unresolved? What's the current position and why are you in counselling?

Counselling tends to be a talking shop with no action plan. MB is not like that. What is the problem facing you and what solution would you like to see/would your wife like?

Are you and your wife currently deeply in love?

First let me first give some general feedback and answer some questions on opposite sex relationships from my point of view so those who want to provide feedback (good or bad) can at least understand my beliefs:

We live in a world where we interact with the opposite sex all the time. We work with the opposite sex all the time. Sometimes in a very infrequent and sporadic way and sometimes in a very close daily frequent way. We do projects with the opposite sex, we share many common likes and dislikes to others of the opposite sex. Basically we are surrounding with the opposite sex in all areas of life. So how do we handle these relationships? What questions come to mind in how a married couple should interact? Let me list some along with my answers. This are my point of view and understand not everyone agrees.

Do I think we do not speak with the opposite sex? No I do not think that..

Do I think we cannot laugh at a joke or share a common interest with the opposite sex? No I do not think that.

Do I think just because we work with a specific opposite sex coworker that it means an affair will happen (emotional or sexual)? No I do not think that.

Do I think we cannot share basic personal information like the joy of our children or joy of our spouse? No I don�t think that. I think when we include in our conversation the love for our family (especially) the spouse we help solidify to the person of the opposite sex that we are happily married and not looking for anything to interfere with that marriage.

Do I think when we go to public events like kids sports or work events that we cannot talk to the opposite sex? No we certainly CAN speak to the opposite sex.

Do I think we cannot laugh at something the opposite sex has shared? No I don�t think that.

Now all of the above questions show that I clearly do not think we should live isolated lives form the opposite sex. I don�t live that way either. Now let me share some boundaries or general guidelines I have for the above.

Do I think it is risky to build a close relationship with another woman? I definitely think it is risky especially if my relationship with my wife is not ROCK SOLID. I understand that there may be something that my wife and I don�t share a common liking for that I and a person of the opposite sex may have. I can acknowledge this, but I am not going to pursue it or put my energy into this.

Do I think we need to be guarded with the opposite sex? Yes. We should take captive the words we use with the opposite sex to not mislead, we should be aware of how the other person is responding so we can adjust our actions to not encourage inappropriate behavior, we should be aware of even how the opposite sex may take something so we can avoid having to make corrections. Am I saying you cannot speak to or laugh at something they said NO. But the less connected you are with your spouse the more guarded you need to be while you build the marriage.

Do I think we should keep information from our spouse in regards to relationships with opposite sex? NO... if you cannot be honest with your spouse about your relationships and you hide them then it is a likely sign that something inappropriate is going on or perhaps your marriage is not strong and you are putting too much emotional energy into this opposite sex relationship.

When we go to public events in general do I think couples should be able to speak to other people (individually). Yes we should. Should it always be the opposite sex? Probably not as that may indicate some other issue if you gravitate almost wholly to the opposite sex? Should you spend the majority of your time away from your spouse? NO. You should also enjoy some of this time together communicating with other couples and individuals as well. Is it wrong if you spent more time apart? Not necessarily. If you have plenty of time together as a married couple and this is a time for both of you to interact with others and it is a mutual desire and need then good.

Do I think we should put our hands on the opposite sex. Other than shaking hands at as a greeting: probably not. Folks we know more personally through church and so forth may also be more of a hug greeting, but even that should be either a side hug or quick and not a lingering.

Do I think we should have more time with someone of the opposite sex than our own spouse? Absolutely not! One may ask how much time? I don�t know the answer to this, but short of required work the spouse should probably not be seeking more time from someone of the opposite sex especially if they are not giving equal and much more time to their own spouse or if it makes the spouse uncomfortable..

Again... this is just my point of view I have developed over the years through my experiences and life... I know others will totally disagree, but this is my core thoughts. Of course I am always open to growing emotionally and see other points of view.

But I know for me when I did marry I thought we had gotten to the point where we were at least in the same chapter... maybe not the same page... but the same chapter on these developed beliefs... especially through the witnessing of failed marriages I explained in last post.

Next post will share some of my worst moments and history leading up to what put us into counseling.

Too much information for posters to get their hands on.

So, in a nutshell, your W has minimally existent boundaries with other men and you are not comfortable with it, yet since you agreed to try to be accepting of her choices, you now feel like you are going back on your word.

No, your boundaries are not out of line. You sense less connection with your W while she carries on without consideration for your feelings. Your instinct is definitely putting you on high alert, as it seems it should be.

You only have the capacity and power to change yourself though, unless she has an epiphany on what she could potentially lose.

Is she comfortable and satisfied with the marriage?

Would she be open to the suggestion of trying out the MB Program?

Read all of the free articles on here and develop an understanding of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts and read further about the POJA, Policy Of Joint Agreement.

Then ask for the help you specifically need and you will be guided correctly.

LTL

She had developed 2 close relationships that came to a head in March 2013. I explain more in coming posts.

Sorry for detail... I am wired that way... will try to pull it back.

I absolutely do not want my marriage to end. Do I always have "feeling" of love. Absolutely not and I know she doesn't either.

I will give some more thought and try to keep my future posts short.

This isn't that type of site, people aren't going to just spew their own opinion here.

People are here to share Dr H's methods and prionciples because (unlike the very high failure rate in couselling) they work.

His opinion is very similar to yours. Members of the OS are people to laugh with and live with but they are not people for married folks to get intimately involved with as best friends who bare their souls.

Most spouse swould find such a thing horrifically threatening and such a careless and casual attitute would make anyone worry.

Now we know that we all agree, how can we help you?

Emotional Affair or Physical? Was it exposed to all your loved ones and the affair partner's spouse and loved ones?

What precautions has she put in place to prevent another affair?

How transparent is her life today or does she keep her secret life private? Don't tell me she STILL has OS friends?

How much time alone together do you get each week? Doing what?
What are her complaints about you?

Is she still in contact with these men?

A Quick version of fun marriage to not fun:

I am not trying to slam my wife, but here are some of her struggles that I allowed (incorrectly allowed) to build resentment, bitterness and anger.

- Clutter and a mess doesn't appear to bother her. I basically do 80 percent of the laundry, 90 percent of the dishes, 70 percent of the cooking and if things get picked up off of the floor I usually am the one initiating it. We both work and now have 3 kids. But up to the last few months it was like I describe above. The kitchen floor would be full of food on counters and floor and we would get fruit flies and gnats and it was very unsanitary to me. I was cleaning house at 2:00AM at night. Now my wife works as I do so to me this is a team... I don't expect her to do it all... I don't even expect her to do 50% of it as I think I am better able to do it, but I want her help. This has improved, but one area that I allowed to make me feel unloved, uncared for, which turned to hurt and internal anger and then to resentment and bitterness.

- Losing things: My wife can be easily distracted and loses things. She routinely loses the debit card on average 4 times a year, has lost some big checks paid to us and many other things. I don't know how many times I could not find my keys as she moved them from the place I put them EVERY day. I allowed this to also lead to resentment.

- Our physical intimacy was very infrequent after the first 5 years. Maybe once a month. She would tell me we could be intimate and then that night back out or simply go to sleep or have a headache. I allowed this also lead to resentment.

The point is there were things that were not good things, but instead of me properly handling them I allowed them to bring out the worst in me where I literally (internally) couldn't stand to be around her. How did that play out (externally). She could feel the disappointment, the disapproval, and coldness.

I am NOT proud of this and knowing the hurt this likely produced in my wife brings me to my knees. She is a person that avoids conflict and I am a person that wants to deal with it and get through it. That doesn't mix well either.

Regardless we went a number of years like this... up and down... close and distant.

Now my next post will state what happened and last post will state where we are now. It is so hard to keep this short.

EDIT: I am sorry... I am trying to keep it short.

My wife started a new job in early 2012. We were not good... not close... very little sex... and just sort of co-existing.

I didn't hear much about the co-workers or the consultants that were regularly there at hospital. I am just going to copy pieces from journal so I don't have to retype:

In March 2013 my wife comes to me and tells me she has been lying to me for about a year. I knew we had some internal struggles as husband and wife, I knew I had some bitterness and resentment built up which caused me to be unkind when those situations kept popping up, but I was not expecting my wife to be telling me she has been lying to me for a year. I can say I immediately felt sick to my stomach, because trust is a HUGE thing to me and LYING simply DESTROYS trust. She continued to tell me she had been going out to lunch with fellow co-workers (sometimes just a couple of men) and sometimes a big group. She looked at me and said she disagreed with what we have agreed with in the past and had no problems going out to lunch with coworkers like this... whether it was just men or coed. She stated she never went out with just one man.

Kelly shared that my anger and disgust towards her had hurt her a great deal. I recognized what she was talking about as I had built up bitterness and anger over the last few years. We had just gone to the marriage conference and it was something that was a burden on my heart to deal with and I had already started dealing with it... although struggling. She gave a couple of examples and there was no where to turn... I knew I had been acting that way and I knew I had anger and bitterness.

I can�t remember the exact wording, but in short she told me that she felt she needed to go out with these coworkers to meet her needs emotionally. Sadly my needs were not being met either, but I didn�t seek out other females or even coed groups to fulfill it. I really didn�t do anything else other than work hard.

But there�s the difference. I would have NEVER sought out other females or coed work groups to meet my need. No matter how bad things are between us that isn�t even on my radar. I always want to work it out. For that matter I have no desire to go to lunch with another woman, 2 woman or a big coed group. I can get all my work related items done at work and I certainly have enough social time at work as well.

Kelly said she wanted us to go to counseling. I didn�t want my marriage to end, but to be honest at this point I don�t see how anything could save it. She wants something I don�t think I�ll ever be able to give her. However I don�t want our marriage to end so I am fully willing to go to counseling.

As days passed I asked again if she had just gone out with one guy one on one and she said no. She said she had only gone out with 2 guys (the consultants). My wife is not good at lying so I waited 5 minutes and asked her is it was Gary that she had gone to lunch with alone and she said no it was Joe. So now I caught her in a lie... although she is telling me things she is still lying.

We had started counseling and my request was lets stop the bleeding. Please don't go out with the opposite sex (one or multiple) until we can get some counseling and some healing for both of us. She agreed, but she did it 4 more times before she stopped... of course the stopping coincided with the project ending the and consultants rarely coming back.

During this period she worked for 3 months until 9:00PM to 10:00PM 6 days a week on the project where one or both of these men were always around and many times alone.

At that time I point blank asked if she had a physical affair and she denies it. I don't have evidence to say otherwise. I believe she has at the minimum had an emotional affair back then and she takes great exception to this as she said she has never had a lustful desire and back then she said she could drop the relationship and it wouldn't bother her and now that he is gone there isn't any sort of loss so how could there be an emotional affair.

I am not certain she had any sort of lustful desire, BUT... I wholeheartedly believe there was an emotional affair (not lustful) where she was building a close relationship and he and the other guy were filling emotional needs.

She claims she has never spoke about anything emotionally close... like heart desires or issues with our marriage or anything like that... she said it was just normal life stuff... just a friend relationship that was fun and she could laugh. Of course we didn't have that.

I want to be clear... there are red flags everywhere on this... but I found nothing that was blatant in regards to sexual affair or even lustful.

We went on vacation about 2 months into counseling with family and she had to do some work for 4 or 5 hours. After the trip something told me to look at her blackberry from work... when I did I see she was emailing one guy on and off during that whole 4 hours of work and it wasn't work related... it was about the trip her fun and so forth... nothing ever about me... just kids if not about herself. By itself it could just be seen as a friend she was talking to.

That night I asked her to bring up her work email so I could see it.

Below is a list of emails that were sent to one of 2 guys or to both that are more personal in nature. A few of these would not be a concern by themselves, but as a whole and in context of everything there was an issue. Some of them are just seem high schoolish in nature. Like the pictures of food from restaurants indicating she wants them to eat with her. Here is a general listing of some of the content first:

Emails about our personal life like video of Adam on new bike we bought him.
Emails about our beach trip. While on beach trip Kelly decides to spend part of the day emailing back and forth with Joe about our trip.
Emails that are most definitely flirty in nature. Not sexual. Initiated by Kelly.
Emails that are playful and banter back and forth. Mostly initiated by Kelly.
Emails clearly stating how good of friends they are. Initiated by Kelly.
Emails clearly stating how GREAT of friends they are. Initiated by Kelly.
Email where Kelly sends picture of herself to both guys showing her hair straight. Comes across as she was wanting attention and even complained that one of the guys didn�t even notice. Initiated by Kelly.
Emails sending image / youtube videos. These are inappropriate images. Things like women�s large breasts with a saying on the shirt �Wish these were brains�. Video of man dancing in just underwear. Video of bare butt with man putting his nose into the bare butt due to practical joke. Initiated by Kelly.
Emails where either lunch / breakfast was being planned or going to take place. Just continuation of her lunch buddy relationship. Mostly initiated by Kelly.
Emails where she is giving praises and she receiving some praise back. Mostly initiated by Kelly.
Emails where she is concerned about their travels, offering to get their food and drink, and general concern. Initiated by Kelly.
Emails where she offers to get the food and drink. Initiated by Kelly
Email saying she has �nothing but luv for him�. Initiated by Kelly.
Emails just goofing in general. Mostly initiated by Kelly.
You will notice this never happens if any other professional is in the chain of emails.
Email where she says she is �bowing down and kissing his feet�.
Emails where she sends them pictures of food at places she is eating indicating she wishes they were there. She never sends these to me. So she wants one or both to go to lunch / breakfast, but not her husband.

Again... many of these individually I may not think much of... but in context with everything it was a clear pattern.

Next post is more about counseling and where we are now.

Your wife has had very poor boundaries and at least one emotional affair. Was it ever exposed? Is she still in contact?

So where are we now.

In counseling... I immediately started doing what the counselor wanted. He gave us a book called "Boundaries" and the next book was "His needs Her needs" The counselor pulls from varying sources. I soaked these books up... my wife... did not even read it for 3+ months. This killed me as I couldn't understand why she would not put in the effort. She was the one that said she wanted us to go to counseling (and I agreed). I tried doing everything the counselor coached us on... but my wife had a spirit of resistant or unwillingness.

Now come to July of 2013 the counselor worked with us on a boundary agreement. The agreement had some solid guidelines on opposite sex relationships in regards to going to lunch and building close relationships without knowledge of spouse and approval as well as agreements about not being flirty and constantly bantering back and forth (constant teasing) with someone of the opposite sex. Now we made comments in the agreement and my wife saw it as a guideline, but clearly some "gray" area on what too much bantering was or what flirty meant. Clearly no sexual flirting, but she is ok with non-sexual flirting and ok with basic touching. Someone touching her shoulder, hi-fives, and not sure what else as she would never expand on what "basic touching" meant.

The point is we have an agreement, but she says she doesn't see a problem or anything wrong with the things the agreement states we will not do. This makes me wonder could she ever live up to the agreement long term if she doesn't believe in it.

As counseling continued we would take 2 steps forward and 4 back. We go one week ok and then slam something happened and back.

One thing is clear I am struggling with hurt turning to anger and coming out inappropriately (not violence, not yelling, not screaming) but in barbs or saying things that I know may hurt her or me wanting to withdraw my love as she isn't showing much willingness or is hurting me. It is like a vicious cycle.

This is my area of struggles:

Trusting Her. She WANTS this, but she doesn't seem to understand it takes some time with her being consistent with honesty and what she agrees to.

She is not faithful in general... meaning she will tell you she is going to do something, but you have a 50/50 shot that she will do it. Probably more like 40/60. The point is she is very unfaithful with her word. For example she will tell you that 90+ percent of the time what I say I will do I will do... but for her you cannot have any sort of confidence what she said she will do will happen. I struggle with this, but I am doing much better at accepting she is not good in this area... BUT it goes back to me feeling like I cannot trust, because if she can't be faithful in the small things how can you be faithful in the really big important things.

So we are now more than a year into counseling and there are days it seems like we are back at square one. At times you can easily see the contempt for one another.

I fully own EVERY short coming I have. I truly work on them... fail at times succeed at others. The counselor will state that he knows I have been the one to put for the most effort and made the most improvements, but he is also pointing out correctly that in the last 3 months she has really stepped up some of the willingness. I agree... but there is still that resistance. I have a curse of being able to see when someone is genuine or not so unfortunately I can read my wife too well.

3 months ago in counseling I had called her selfish the night before (I shouldn't have said it), but to her it was so bad she looked at the counselor and said how do I say I have had enough. And as of that day she was walking out. Ultimately I gave her space and involved our pastor and she was willing to go.

The counselor still believes it was a feeling of desperation and not a true desire and that she should have never have said it... the problem for me this was a whole new break in trust!

Heck... I get not feeling like you love someone and even the feeling of wanting to be away or not with them, but it is my marriage so I am not going anywhere if it can be fixed. That was a tough one to get through as in the back of my mind I was thinking if anyone should have made the threat it should have been me... but what good would that do.

It did re-invigorate efforts on my part so unfortunately she may see it as a good choice... but again all along I am making improvements on my areas and always willing where she was resisting.

So where are we today:
Struggling... she says she is abiding by agreement... but she does work in the same room with 1 guy that likes to banter a lot and she has admitted there is some of that going on... which bothers me. She doesn't see anything wrong with it, but I remind her it breaks our agreement. It just gets her mad when I point things out.

I still see some willingness on her part... one day it is there... the next day it is not... one day she can be so caring in her words and the next day she looks like she hates you.

I need help in the following ways:

- Not allowing hurt to move to anger and come out inappropriately.
- Showing love and grace.
- Not coming across as judgmental.
- Not allow a bunch of small disappointments build into big hurt.
- Since everything is so sensitive due to hurt how to now let things that should be at a level X be hurt as if it was level Y.

It's like you can't catch a break or catch a breath.

Even just now... we literally work across the street from each other. I emailed her to see if she wanted to take a break and go for a walk. She said she would email me shortly. It was 10:00AM. I didn't hear back so I just now called to see how things were going... figured she got slammed and could go anywhere. She says sorry... things got busy... and then I went and got a bite to eat... came back to busy... and was just now emailing you. Now she did email after we got off of the phone, but I sadly am not sure she really was emailing me. Lies screw with your head so much. The email was about kids schedule... nothing about my original request.

We literally get only about 1 hour a week of any time to talk... and I am not exaggerating... so in my mind why didn't you just invite me to lunch since I was already trying to get time with you. Her work schedule is less flexible so we learned me asking her to go to lunch came with so many no's that it was better if she asked when she knew she could go.

I just don't get it. When on the phone a few minutes ago I told her I was sorry that I was struggling right now with this as it really feels like she is avoiding and there was an opportunity for her to do something to build the marriage. She immediately said she had to get off of the phone. The problem is... I know this is a love buster to be able to discuss things and it is my love buster to not discuss things.

Stopping here.

Not entirely... it was only back before marriage I tried to be accepting of the male relationships... I told her I could not continue in a relationship with low boundaries and she in the end seemed to come around to seeing and understanding it from my perspective.

Neither of us are comfortable or satisfied at the moment. But we are trying to get there.

I am going to read as much as I can. Our counselor had us do the emotional needs questionnaire a long while back and read his needs her needs, but I think we had bigger issues. I am trying to go back and start looking into this more.

Would your W be willing to post on this forum for advice?

Does she know that you are posting here?

LTL

She says NO AFFAIR took place at all. The only thing she has ever admitted as being wrong was lying to me. The friendship she said is not wrong and doesn't see an issue with it, but out of deference to me we have an agreement we worked out with counselor.

I believe there was at a minimum and emotional connectedness that was inappropriate. I think she disagrees with this as well. She stands by not doing anything wrong and that it was just a friendship and she would NEVER have an affair. Of course that is a dangerous statement as I believe if we would have continued on the course it could have turned into much more.

How transparent... she doesn't like me asking about things... I don't know if it is how I ask or if it is because she feels untrusted and that in itself puts her off or what... but I do ask and she seems to answer... although irritatedly at times.

In regards to OS friends. She works in the same room with a very friendly gregarious guy who likes to banter and tease. My wife has told me of some conversations that have made me uncomfortable... but to her she doesn't seem to have a problem with a little banter (non-sexual). But it does make me feel uncomfortable and not very safe.

I don't sense anything is being hidden... but we hardly have time to speak and if the only speak we have is about hurts then that doesn't allow for "good times" We literally only get about 1 to 2 hours of alone time a week. She almost always goes to bed after we put kids to bed (8:00PM) and then she reads for 45 minutes to an hour and goes to sleep. yes... we should be talking during this time in my mind, but she doesn't see it that way. Got a meeting will reply to others soon.

Is she still in contact with the OM?