Has it occurred to you that she simply doesn't like you having so much stuff? Maybe your stuff is a love buster for her. You need to address whatever comes between the two of you. If these things are expendable to you, it might help if you start proactively getting rid of them.

Yes... the stuff NOT being used is stuff she wants to get rid of and has asked I do it. I have already started gathering it all together and prepping for photos to put them on craigslist / ebay / specialty sites for these items. I am fully on board with getting rid of the stuff. She doesn't have a problem with the items actually used. But we have accumulated things that no longer get used, but do have value.

This is a recent request and it is actively being done.

Thanks for the feedback and perspective on this.

I had my second meeting with Steve Harley. I really like his approach and he seems to believe my wife is on board with where he is starting us. I like how he is guiding us. He is ready for us to both meet with him next.

It is so much more refreshing than my time with other counselor. Even though other counselor many times may say some of the same things... Steve just has the full picture and plan that just makes sense. How he coaches and explains things are so very clear.

Great news! I can almost hear how much calmer and happier you are.

That's great news!! Keep us updated.

Just a quick update. I have met with Steve Harley 3 times, and wife met with him 2 times. And we had our first meeting together Monday.

We have both read through He Wins / She Wins and now reading it together as an assignment.

He is focusing us on POJA first as we had the homework assignment of doing the following:

Go to grocery store with 20 items to purchase.

- Put 4 guidelines and ground rules on note cards.

- Go through each time following guideline 1 and 2 first taking turns like this:
--- If tomato soup is item decide which one I want and ask how she feels about that choice.
--- If she is not enthusiastic and has a different choice then ask which one would she like and why?
--- At this point I listen and once she has shared I am to verify I understand her correctly by sharing back what I heard. If wrong she will clarify and do this step again.
--- Once I have her perspective correct... I then share my perspective and she will respond with what she understands I am saying.

- If we were in agreement then we move to next item.

- If we were not in agreement and after sharing our different perspectives if neither of us changed our mind we would move into Guideline 3 and Brainstorm.

We were to take turns going first and he said NO BARTERING. We must agree on what we get.

Going through this exercise was interesting and actually a little awkward. Why? Well... we normally can do shopping so easily together and know what we like that it was strange asking how we felt about a particular item when we pretty much knew. But I understand the purpose... practicing POJA.

The verification process where you described the other's conflicting perspective was something my wife kept forgetting to do. So I just reminded we needed to follow the note card and then she would remember to do it.

So at the end we agreed my wife would go get kids and I would check out the groceries and meet them at home.

Now what is somewhat humorous, but also points out one of the LB's is as I placed the food on the counter I see there is an item that was not on our list in the basket. It was something we didn't POJA at all and wasn't on the list.

When I got home and I said... "Hey, there was an item in the basket we didn't have on list and didn't POJA." She said... "Huh... what was it?" I told her what it was and she said... "Oh yea... something I needed" and then switched the subject to something else.

I am not making a big deal out of this, but it is this sort of indifference and IB behavior that causes LB withdrawals. I don't know if she consciously makes a choice or if it just does NOT register. I was listening to one of Dr Harley's shows where it talked about a spouse not being intentional and just going on auto pilot and if that auto pilot leads to LB's there is work to be done to get off of auto pilot. (That is highly paraphrased).

Anyway... the awesome positive is she is willingly meeting, listening to Steve Harley, reading the books he is pointing out.

It will be interesting when the ELEPHANT in the room eventually comes up... OS friendships and how she interacts with them.

This leads to a question...

My wife was invited to lunch by a female co-worker. She texted me and said "Jane Doe wants to take me to lunch today if that's ok with you"

It is hard to read tone in text, so let me clarify she wasn't being sarcastic... she is trying to avoid IB behavior and do POJA.

I told her to have fun, but I felt like I was giving "permission". In MB what is the practice on something like this... does she ask "permission", does she just let me know what she is planning to do and ask how I feel about it? Or does she simply just share about her day so there is openness and honesty.

I have read so much that I sometimes just get confused on what should be done or how it should be done.

So if I go to lunch with my male coworker do I call and ask her if it is ok.

Just confused on this.

Ok, I see this as a passive aggressive way to say she thought this was a dumb assignment and/or she isn't really going to live by this... I would bring this up with Steve. ( Possibly email him so HE can bring it up and you are not the bad guy...) But the whole point of the exercise was to POJA everything and yet she throws in a non-item at the last minute which pretty much defeats the point of the whole exercise and to me shows she is not serious about leaving off IB.

To me, the text shows the same thing. She feels like she is being controlled. Have steve discuss this.

I've heard far worse grocery store practice stories! It has also highlighted a habit you can work on without there being too much at stake. Maybe she spotted a habit of yours too.



I'd thank her for her thoughtfulness in asking. Who cares what she's thinking? The key is she's responding to complaints. Encourage that.

You could tell her she's always welcome to lunch with female friends without asking if you feel that's better.

I have a feeling that your wife loves praise. Even if you think her heart isn't in something, praising her for what she's doing for you could get her over that extra yard.

The feelings follow the actions. Going through the motions is more than OK right now.

When it starts benefitting her, she can review.

In fact, giving it a go without being sure about it is very buyer-y.

I will thank her for her thoughtfulness. And I think you are right... she likes praise... but at the same time when you give it to her she sort of blows it off or acts like it isn't necessary.

What are other MB'ers doing in this situation. Are spouses checking with each other before going to lunch with someone else (same sex) or just keeping each other informed on their schedules? (We work within 200 yards of each other so other than work scheduled we could potentially eat lunch together multiple times a week).

For me personally I definitely want to know what is going on and have full disclosure due to past actions with OS friendships and SSL that happened. So knowing her schedule and what she does for lunch definitely helps me feel more safe and secure. And if there is an exception where she has to go to lunch in mixed company for a business reason then I want to know about it as soon as possible.

But asking if it is OK seemed more permission request vs doing POJA. I don't know... just trying to rap my head around this.

I think if I had a preference if we wanted to have lunch with someone try to plan it at least a day in advance so we can let the other know so we can plan our own lunches or errands. Why? Well... there have been times where I wanted to go to lunch with my wife and we just haven't touched base yet that day, but she calls saying she has other plans when I go to ask her.

Since we are just across the street from each other it is very likely one of us could just call and say hey do you want to go to lunch... so maybe if we had an impromptu request by someone else asking one of us to lunch we could tell that person "let me check with my spouse to make sure he/she wasn't wanting to have lunch with me". At least this would give our spouse first shot at lunch for the day.

Maybe I am over thinking this... I certainly don't want to add anything to the program, but want to definitely stick with the program... so that is why I am asking.

Thanks

I don't think you are over-thinking this.
I am married to an extreme IBer. He has gotten better in some areas but IB permeates every area of our life. He does what your wife did regarding lunch: tell me what his plans are or what he hopes them to be and gives me room to object. That isn't how I understand POJA. Now, I am not prone to IB (at least I don't think so and my H has never complained about it, but I could stand to be corrected) so if I phrased something that way I think it MIGHT be fine. If you have a spouse with a history of IB it is especially helpful and necessary for the conversation to be "How would you feel about me going to lunch with so-and-so?" The how do you feel part allows you to easily say "well, I was thinking WE could go to lunch" without feeling petulant or whiney. Objecting doesn't feel good but having someone ask for your thoughts DOES feel good.

To simplify this situation, can you ask your wife to ask you before she agrees to any lunch plans to ask you first?

I shared my thoughts with her this weekend and asked that she think about it so we could POJA after she has thought about it. Basically I asked that we strive to plan lunches with same sex (friends / coworkers) ahead of time, but in the event either one of us is asked to lunch instead of responding to that person with a yes that we ask them if we can get back with them in a few minutes... then we call our spouse giving them first choice.

I guess I didn't notice it as much or new what to call it until I found out about MB concepts, but we both have done IB in the past. I am much less susceptible to it now as I 100% buy into MB concepts and don't like IB so much that I strive to always ask how something makes my wife feel.

For example... a friend of mine is going through marital struggles and he asked that I meet him after church to talk and go work out together so he could burn off some stress. I told him I would need to get back with him in about 10 minutes as I checked our schedule. So I spoke with my wife and told her the situation and asked her how she would feel about me going. She said she was ok with this.

So I met with him... now when he told me his wife was NOT OK with him going to work out I sent him home after talking with him for about 15 minutes sharing MB principles he should be following and pointing him to the books.

So with my wife I believe I approached this situation with MB principles and she said she was ok with it... and said she was not reluctant.

Now let's look at what happened last night... I am downstairs with kids and she comes down and says... "I am going to go get some tea at McDonald's and going to go by our babysitters home to check on them. If you could get dinner ready for the kids then when I get home we can watch movie with kids" then turns and starts to walk out. It sort of through me off and I didn't think I caught it correctly so she repeated it and this time as she walked out she said... "if that is ok with you". The kids were right there with me and I chose not to say anything at the moment with the kids there and she left. When she got back I did share that I felt like she didn't really give me an option and requested next time that we talk about it versus just telling me what she was going to do. Her next reply was... well... tomorrow we have a scheduled appointment with Steve Harley... I think I want to take the appointment by myself as I must not be understanding the concepts.

This is very frustrating. If I EVER share a complaint like I did above then she starts questioning things, because it seems so unreasonable to her.

Well the good part is she will be talking to Steve Harley and NOT other counselor.

Breaking IB is going to be difficult for my wife... Breaking IB or breaking the mentality of "I am not doing anything wrong" if I share a complaint to wife or she doing a disrespectful judgment by saying "you are just unreasonable" because she doesn't agree is going to be hard for her to break.

At same time... it is very hard for me to have it being done to me and make sure I don't respond incorrectly myself. I have to be very diligent that I don't respond incorrectly or emotionally. For now... saying let's talk to Steve about this is the best choice.

It is a hard concept to learn at first. You've been studying intently for a while, this is new to your wife.

I think her misunderstanding probably lies in 'I'm sure my plans are not 'wrong' and I have never heard him complain about this idea. Therefore I am sure it is ok really and all I need to do is give a polite nod in his direction so he knows *I've decided* that he would find it OK!'

You're in the row boat with a seat saved next to you and giving ultra fine feedback on when to row and what direction and willingly accepting that feedback too.

She's wandering along on the riverbank wondering why she isn't getting anywhere. She's never even heard of a row boat and has no idea what you are doing down there.

I think it's great she is willing to get better MB study feedback from Steve.

It IS progress from the days of 'you shouldn't object that's why I don't bother asking'.

Thanks for the continued support... I am having to keep refocusing myself to the positive of her willing to get better MB knowledge from Steve. That is what I have to keep doing and not let emotions rule anything. That is probably my number 1 battle internally... keep emotions out of it. I believe I have been good in keeping them internally... but I want to get to the point where I don't have that struggle internally as it is indeed a battle!

To clarify... although I have done very good in keeping it internal I don't want to be dishonest and give the appearance it never shows in some matter... I know in my tone or in my face there are times she can see that frustration and I have to adjust quickly to remove it.

Absolutely!

She is on phone with Steve Harley now... and she said she would conference me in when she is done... unless she ends up taking the whole time. Just have to wait and see what plays out.

I guess there are a couple of reasons I wish we were both on the call with Steve right now.

1) Even if she has questions... maybe I need clarifications or could benefit by her questions as well. The thought that comes to mind is why does it need to be done in private versus us together. My guess is she didn't like one of the 4 complaints that took place over the last 5 days and is struggling with it and doesn't want to talk with me there.

2) I guess a part of me feels there is a "hidden" aspect to this versus me being able to hear my wife's honest true feelings. I know honesty and openness are huge to me and in emotional needs the Policy of Radical Honesty is extremely important to me. I guess I feel like I don't get to here her true honest feelings and I would rather hear them as we work through MB.

Again... I have to look at the positive of she is talking to Steve and he is only going to teach MB concepts so give time for all this to take root.

In regards to the 4 complaints.

1) First complaint I already shared about the POJA issue with the groceries... one item showing up with no POJA and she sort of blowing it off.

2) Second complaint is what I shared a few minutes ago about her going out and getting tea, visiting baby sitter and telling me to have dinner ready for the kids.

3) Third complaint... Kelly was playing a new game on phone where random people could join her. She said she was playing a guy name Doug. With all that has happened with SSL and OS friends of the past I am sensitive to OS interaction and I shared the following: "I would prefer she not be joining up with other random guys in an app to play games where chat is part of the feature of the game." Her response was I was assuming she would chat. I told her "I wasn�t assuming anything� I am sharing how it makes me feel uncomfortable when she is joining up with other guys in social media or facebook or other areas like this game where chat is involved". I left it at that and nothing else was said.

4) Fourth complaint... My wife frequents a restaurant almost weekly for the last couple of years. Most of this was during the Secret Second Life phase without me knowing she was going their and over time she and the manager have developed a friendship. Although the friendship appears to be superficial and interaction was left only at the restaurant. Almost every time she is there he finds her spends time with her or she on occasion seeks him out to share about her meal. The times I have been there with her he has ignored me and only spoke with her. Because of the issues with the past SSL and now her relationship with this manager that was build secretly it makes me feel uncomfortable when she goes to this restaurant. It makes me very uncomfortable and I have told her this a number of times in the past. So Friday she took a female co-worker to this restaurant. She told me she was going, but I didn't feel like I could make the request at the time without her getting upset. This is her go to restaurant. But every time she goes it is a negative withdrawal from the love bank. So Saturday I shared "Kelly... as you know it makes me uncomfortable each time you go to this restaurant and especially when the manager finds you and spends some time with you or when you seek him out. I cannot explain fully as to why it makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't believe you are having any sort of inappropriate conversation with him and not accusing you of anything, but it simply makes me uncomfortable and does withdraw love bank units for me. I request that you please stop going to that restaurant, but I am willing to go with you when would like to eat there... even though I will still feel a little uncomfortable. Please think about this and we can POJA or talk with Steve about it". Nothing has been said since then. As a side note I have found out he is also a parent of one of the other kids on my sons soccer team and one day he found her there so there is a concern that the friendship could grow through this venue as well.

Wife had finished up with Steve and then he spoke with me alone for a few minutes and then we both got back on phone. Focus is still on POJA and intentionally practicing it through the week so we can report on it Friday or Monday.

We didn't discuss the complaints... although I did share them with Steve privately.

Ultimately the goal right now is to continue practicing POJA on daily things and I am to give major amounts of encouragement to wife. As well as asking if she is willing to hear a complaint vs just giving it to her without her willingness to hear it at the moment.

I guess my concern is she will just always say no she doesn't want to hear a complaint or concern ever... as that is her tendency. Steve said he would address it if she was never willing to hear complaint, but wants her to be willing and open to hearing it vs just dumping it on her when maybe she isn't up for it at the moment... and I get that.