Don't sweat it, the garden variety counsellor would have made things worse anyway. Plus I'm suspicious of counsellor requests as they are so vague as to what the problem is and tend to come from waywards. Normal women say: "hey buster I want more x, y and z by x date or I'm looking at divorce lawyers."



My suspicion is she's using the password protected phone at these sporting events. It would be easy for her to text in the crowd or slip off to take a phone call. I'm sure careful questioning would reveal she is missing quite a lot of what she's there to see. My suggestion would be to put a VAR in her car as she must sometimes have phone conversations there, safe in the knowledge the records can't be seen. Or she'd use her car at lunch with the current coworkers if that's still happening. Maybe a GPS too.

I think he should ask for the password too, but maybe not for a week so he can snoop while appearing unperturbed for a bit. Falsely lulling a sense of security.

Two love bank deposit ideas:

1) talk to her about what she sees at these sporting events. Not only for detective purposes, but FC is clearly a high need. If she gets defensive etc tell your story of your event, be entertaining, proud and the one thing no other man can ever be - a great dad to your kids. Slip in a sly compliment 'just like his mom' etc.

2) I'm not a fan of your counselling sessions but it is a good way to hold her hostage for a bit and make love bank deposits. Completely ignore the agenda to discuss problems, and just talk about why you love her and paint pictures of all the wonderful things you want to do with her. When she makes jabs (away from the counsellor or with him) just talk about how thrilled you are that she now comes to you with these complaints and you'd love to resolve them. If all else fails, a sympathetic hmmmm and looking as though you are really listening should do.

Here.
Acronyms and Abbreviations

Already been done.
GPS tracking shows she goes where she says she is going in the car. Already been done.

EDIT: Just realized VAR is voice recorder. I haven't done this, but not opposed.

The only thing I have not had access to is her work email and phone. And one night without warning I will ask her to open it up for me.

No... they are consultants that work for the software company the hospital uses. And yes... they could be emailing back and forth via work. Again... I am going to get access and put this to rest.

Ok... just realized what VAR meant... didn't see it on the acronym page. I am not opposed to doing it.

Here, VAR

Last night my daughter had swim practice and she asked me to take the 2 boys and help with practice tests for school. I always do this as I try to do everything I can to help with kids, home, and so on. So I took the boys and she took daughter to swim practice.

I decided I was just going to make a clear request and see what happens in regard to having some time together. I texted her and asked if we could have our 8 to 9 time tonight. The 8 to 9 just means try to get at least an hour of time together sometime after kids are in bed.

She texted back and said yes, asked what I wanted to do during that time and asked if I could move the laundry from washer to dryer.

I took care of boys and washer / dryer. I didn't have a plan on exactly what we would do. But I just wanted time "together" and then just talk about our day and life in general.

So she came home and as usual there isn't a strong connectedness, but that is the point of having time together. So she comes downstairs with me at 8:55 and I asked her questions about work which led to things with my work and so forth. I showed interest in her job and I made a conscious effort to not let any conversation that involved OS coworkers concern me... she does have to work with them... and I simply planned on doing life with her.

She lasted 39 minutes before she started fading as she does have issues staying awake and always have. Sometimes she can stay up later if doing something active, but sitting on a couch she does fade quick. Been that way 15+ years. But honestly on the nights she reads... when she stays up later... it does show me she can do it if it is something she really wants to do like read. But I need to stay positive as I could easily point this out, but my guess is that would be a love buster.

The point is... it was positive... although love banks are technically in the red at the moment... but there was a deposit and hopefully for her as well.

We went to bed and I asked if I could hold her until she went to sleep and she is fine with this. She has never said no... but I know there are plenty of times I didn't feel like it due to hurt.

So I held her about 10 minutes until she was good and snoring and was going to go do some work... but then fell asleep myself.

She literally works across the street from me... I can see her building so I asked her if she could take a walk with me shortly. She said she is working on a specific issue that has to be resolved and if she can get it resolved before our couple's counseling today then she would go and walk with me.

Trying my best to add to love bank and to stay positive.

I'd describe you as in Plan A - you have a reluctant spouse and you are talking her into spending time with you. What you're doing currently doesn't really count towards building the lovebank. That has to be done on fun dates when you aren't tired! It's more of a pre-plan to make real rebuilding possible.

It's real typical of women who are out of love that they don't want conversation/affection they want fatherhood stuff and chores. Good on you for persevering and getting her to talk.

Listening to her was good, but you want to making little pennies of love deposits right through the day.

What does she like? What are her interests? What little gestures can you give her. Think cups of tea/coffee, small gifts, flowers... notes, compliments. It adds up.

My wife is actually more like a guy in some respects. Meaning she is not this lovey dovey person in general. I remember going on a date seeing a movie that would produce strong emotion (love interest dying or something like that) and I remember me fighting back the tears with all I had in that movie... she on the other hand... looked cool as a cucumber.

My point is I know she is not a big lovey dovey type person... and she is definitely has some male traits. I am more of the emotional love kind of guy... but she needs admonishment, acceptance, and truthfully conversation. We did the emotional needs questionnaire and I need to re-read her answers again.

I think it was Family Commitment, Admiration, Honesty and Openness, and Domestic Support. I will go double check.

But I am in the plan of trying to provide the types of things you are talking about and focus on what she really likes.

So this morning I asked her to take a walk and she was able to take a break and we walk around block for 10 minutes. I asked her about her morning and she shared her struggles and issues. I mainly listened and asked questions.

She said she was able to get a baby sitter for Saturday from 1:00PM to 7:00PM. She wants to be back by 7:00PM so we can have an hour or so with kids. Unfortunately that night is camp out night with kids so that cuts out physical intimacy as an option. Maybe I can get camp night switched to Friday... unless she is willing to be physically intimate that night. We only have that once ever 2 weeks at the moment.

Anyway... I want to make sure I have not painted the picture of no willingness... yes it was very low willingness up until about March... and there is still resistance... especially if we had a bad discussion.

Anyway... I am trying to do everything I can to prevent those and keep my "horse - emotions" in check. I am going to re-read His Needs / Her Needs and then read Love Busters after I finish another book I am reading... just removed the name as I realized the forum rules didn't want other books pointed out.

Well I pride myself on being able to meet the needs of a typical guy! Admiration is a good one. If someone has an admiration need (I do) they gobble up compliments like bar snacks. Usually someone with male energy needs fun recreation - which unfortunately she may be getting at sporting events away from you. A good reason to make it a topic of conversation as a starter to sharing that together.

I like the walk and talks. That's good. Notes and gifts don't have to be the affection need, they can be funny or silly.



I'm surprised that's on the table at all right now. Unless your wife is more like a guy in more ways than one. Usually women need the romantic love threshold to be high to get anything out of sex (so quite a few weeks into spending 15hrs+ fun UA time). If she's at all reluctant and it isn't super passionate, don't accept it. It's false coin. Hold off until a later date. So-so feelings lead to a less than great experience sexually on the feminine side and that's hard to get out of because the brain learns to expect that. You need to treat it like dating and wait for the right time.

Admiration I believe might have been in her top 3 needs. My struggle has always been... if you are doing things that hurt the marriage it makes it harder for me to come up with edification or admiration comments. Maybe some ideas from this discussion will help me get things flowing.

In regards to physical intimacy... it is in my top 3 and at this time she is the only one initiating it... meaning I am not and I wait on her. So she only initiates if she is willing and feels connected enough to do so. It has been a struggle though. She definitely tends to "control" it and that is honestly difficult for me. There have been several times where her sexual need was met, but mine not yet and she would start to get very controlling... hard to explain... and I just let the session stop. Very frustrating to me... I desire for this to be a very mutual and special.

I get what you are saying as so-so feelings for me definitely makes it a less than great experience. I don't have a desire unless I am feeling emotionally connected.

Thanks

I meant to add... no she is definitely not like a guy in this respect. When it happens she has stated she always enjoyed herself... and the physical signs support this. But she has always had a low drive and begin pre-menopausal it is probably less.

Well... today after a rough counseling session I asked her straight up if she was still having any sort of relationship with either of the two male consultants. She said that both of them needed help on a project and she had been helping them (via phone) as they are multiple states away. I asked if this was a project that benefited her hospital or just something that benefited the consultant's company. And the answer was it was for the consultant's company. I asked why is she helping on a project that isn't benefiting her company... was she doing it, because of the relationship she had with them. She said no... that they routinely help out as they were one of the main hospitals for this company and it is cleared by her management to do it.

I then tell her I want to see all of the emails and have access to her phone... I tell her I know in the past that she said I couldn't, but she needs to make the decision to allow it. She said she would.

She said "You can have free access to those emails. I know my anger over this is not justifiable so I won't talk about this until I can without anger or defensiveness. So you can read them knowing I won't speak about it then go ahead"

I told her Radical honesty and openness is critical for our marriage. Not sure she gets this. She says things like that sounds good, but...

So we get to the computer and she opens it up and prints out a couple of emails and says I can look at those. I said no... I told her to hand me the computer and I will look at them on the screen. She did not like this and re-iterated that she wasn't going to talk about the emails and asked if I understood. Didn't like how she said it, but said yes... I understood.

So I scrolled down to the oldest email which was April 11, 2014... their system purges email so I could not see older ones... and this email was her reaching out to Joe personally saying "Just checking in to see how things are going... Haven't heard from you in a while." The content isn't all that important other than the agreement is the friendship that she had built with OM1 and OM2 was to end due to the fact it was hidden for a year and the fact she had built a hidden friendship that went to the point she was going out with OM1 for lunches as a lunch buddy and lying to me about it. And even when she agreed to stop with both me and counselor she still did it a few more times before she finally stopped (well as far as I know) Not only was the agreement the friendship ends and any interaction (that may have to be done due to work) stay professional, but also I believe Dr. Harley clearly states this sort of relationship born out of deception needs to end. It is a threat to the marriage and continues to cause issues. My wife has continued this relationship.

She continues to talk about personal things with him... our kids... books she is reading... how she is ready to move out of our old house to a new house... how the book she is ready is pretty clean... asked about his basketball trips and how she is so jealous he gets to go.

There was one or two other personal ones... one where she is praising how they have the right guy for the job and and praising him as a good sales man. This one email she was chatting back and forth for a while and then said she had to head of for Zumba class as Zumba was calling her fat.

All of the other emails that OM1 or OM2 were in, BUT also had other recipients in the email stayed very professional. Only the emails to OM1 directly and no other recipients were personal.

Again... the overall content is not really important. Looking at the content there isn't anything that would say you are having a physical affair or lustful affair like that. Many would say nothing there indicates emotional affair... but a friendship... But what it clearly states to me...

- She broke her word and lied that the friendship had ended.
- She lied to me and said there was no personal friendship still there and tried to hide it (in my opinion) by trying to give me a print out of one email versus letting me see them all. The one she printed was very professional and not personal. But the few personal ones were in the email account.
- She not only lied about it she was the one seeking it out by contacting him.
- It seems like this friendship is more important to her than her marriage and not putting her marriage first.

I obviously cannot see all the calls she has made to him and have not seen her work phone for texting content, but I will see it in morning.

Although she was mad that I wanted to see them... and she stated she new she had no justification for being angry... and the fact she let me see them have some bearing on the fact she really doesn't see this friendship as harmful or wrong. She states he is just a friend and nothing more... no different than a female coworker. She does also email one of the female consultants, but in the past emails I looked at in 2013 there were very few to her as her friendship was really with OM1 and OM2.

So now I am not sure what to do. I have read enough to not go making demands or attacking.

Oh... and today the counselor really ticked me off as he felt the discussion of the past had been done to ad nauseum and that she apologized and we need to move on. I told them I was not going to be bullied into blindly trusting and that there needed to be radical honesty and openness. He agrees with this... but sometimes he says something that seems to contradict this.

In the end it seemed like one big argument in the room.

So what is the next step? I can't attack her and do things that continue to love bust. We are scheduled for a date tomorrow from 1PM to 7PM and I have to NOT allow any of this to come up and act like none of this seriously hurt me or withdrew every little bit of love there was.

I think you did wonderfully well. Continue to snoop, make deposits, avoid withdrawals.

I think you know you need to watch these friendships most warily.

I am lost as I am not sure what I can do. So I keep my eyes open, I try to make deposits and no withdrawals... but what happens with this??? I did email marriage builders, but the email was very long so they may not read it. I may have to send a second one if I don't hear back and try to keep it to a single page.

Anyway... not sure how to continue. If I can't make withdrawals then how can I state how this makes me feel and discuss the fact the broke her word and try to get this stopped? I am trying to read everything I can now on this site so trying to not do anything at the moment.

And... since we know my wife has no problems with these friendships how will it ever end if she can never enthusiastically end them??? That is where I am really concerned... how do I get it to stop if she would not agree??????? That is part of the POJA I don't get.

You have every right to be concerned about these "friendships"

You don't want to make any withdrawals while discussing any of this, but you can respectfully request that she read the articles on here about opposite sex friends.

This can then open up discussion that may lead to an agreement about protecting your love and marriage to her.

MSM, I haven't been following your entire thread, but since you never enthusiastically agreed to her "friendships" in the first place, they should not be part of the marriage. That means you go back to the point of the negotiation and the default position is to do nothing. Do nothing applies to her friendships. If a spouse does things that make the other spouse unhappy, then that should stop until an enthusiastic agreement is reached.

The solution is to tell your wife how unhappy these relationships make you and ask her to stop. If she cares about your feelings she will be happy to do that. If not, then you have a bigger problem on your hands.

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