And she may not be enthusiastic about it at first and that is just fine. Her reward for doing so is a happy, secure marriage. The article I posted above addresses this very issue perfectly.

Right - you need enthusiastic agreement to DO something, not to NOT do something. So you need enthusiastic agreement to SEE people, not to NOT see them. If your spouse isn't enthusiastic about you having contact with a particular person, you shouldn't contact them.

The rule is very simple and works very well.

That's what I have not been able to articulate to her and maybe I can't. If we could remove the things she does that does great damage to me and remove the things "I DO" from doing great damage I think the healing can begin. I am actively changing everything that has come out that I do that hurts her... I am not perfect at it and fail, but I am actively working on it and no on can deny that. However this sort of hidden deception that comes out by me snooping or having to request access does not help anything.

I want to be clear that I struggle in two core areas that I have read in love busters:

1) Disrespectful Judgements: Based on this from the site

Well... when I am trying to get my point across I don't feel I am trying to "force", but I see how that looks and probably is. Sort of the... "how can anyone who claims to love someone do this" type of thoughts. I need to do everything I can to remove this love buster and figure out how to avoid it.

2) Angry Outbursts: Based on this from the site


Well... I do NOT have this screaming match, yelling match or name calling type of deal. BUT I do feel an injustice is begin done to me and feel she is deliberately making a choice to make me unhappy by some of her actions. I don't feel like I am trying to teach her a lesson, but if I really look hard at myself I can see times where I completely shutdown in anger and in that state I am unwilling to communicate or be loving... just sort of coexist.

I cannot allow this sort of behavior from me to continue. It is not my normal state at all... BUT when hurt has built up I see anger boiling inside and it comes out in some love buster way. I clearly need to address this.

My point is... there are deep hurts I know come from actions my wife is taking, but I also have struggles I need to master... some days / weeks I do very well and when the fire is turned up it is much more difficult.

So my commitment is to do everything I can, even in the midst, of the latest fire to not all it to control me.

For example the date Saturday from 1:00PM to 7:00PM had no discussion or anything to do with marriage in general. I tried to simply provide an enjoyable date. Now after the date was over and went well... I had hoped she may be willing to meet one of my intimacy needs (yes physical), but she did not initiate so I left it alone and did no try to initiate.

But you are not in a position to be able to say if it helps anything. It helps tremendously in that if she is hiding something, you will find out. And if she isn't, you will be reassured of her trustworthiness. Snooping is always very helpful.


That is great that you focused on making the date an enjoyable, pleasant time. You have the right idea. The only thing I would add is that 6 hours is a very long date and may have been too long. Usually 4 hours is the longest because longer than that can be exhausting.

I can be pushing it... I agree. We saw a movie as part of it so I see that 2 hours as being no communication... just enjoying something we both do like. But no talking. We then had dinner and talked and then walked the mall for things we needed to do. Perhaps that is not part of the UA time... so I can't say that all 6 hours were pure UA time. I am still reading and trying to soak up as much info as I can.

That sounds like a perfect date. You just deduct the time you were in the movie. Shopping together and eating out is GREAT UA time, IMO. You did good!

So four hours - which is the perfect recommended 'block' of UA time.

While it's a better feeling emotinally if she were voluntarily open and honest, (that would meet the emotional need for honesty as well as factually filling in blanks) you'd still have to snoop anyway. Careful and protective spouses always realise their spouse may be under some malign influence, or may not be aware of how important some unspoken thing is to you, and so they snoop anyway.

So I am at a loss...

I am not to make demands, do any judging, and not have any angry outburst over this... check... got it... BUT

What the heck do I do. Yes... keep trying to give love deposits and avoid love busters.

This issue needs to be addressed in some manner right? But how?

Now we have counseling appointment Thursday. I shared everything with counselor today and he was definitely disappointed to hear it. My guess is he will let her talk Thursday and see where she goes with things. He met with her after me so I am sure he probably listened to her point of view and may have tried to coach her... but one thing he doesn't do is say you are wrong or try to judge or impose his beliefs. He said he clearly didn't need me to make a case or argument against what took place to him as he agreed this should not take place based on our existing boundaries agreement.

However I am not sure he thinks this is anything more than a close friendship and not an affair and (emotional or sexual). Yes... no proof whatsoever on sexual and even with content of all emails I have found nothing indicates much more than just a good guy friend (as if you were single). I know he sees it as risky... but I don't know what a true MB counselor would do. So how would Dr Harley address this. Would he flat out call it like it is and challenge her (as well as me on my struggles I have already described). I just don't know how this should really proceed.

Everything we have told you to do here is what Dr Harley would have told you to do. He would tell you to quietly snoop on her and find out the facts. He would tell you to respectfully explain to her that opposite sex friendships are upsetting to you and a risk to your marriage. He might even suggest that you give her the article about the danger of opposite sex friendships.

He would tell you not to accuse her of anything, but quietly snoop.

How would he know? Is he snooping on her? Does he have FACTS that would substantiate this position?

Mmmm given that 60pc of marriages experience infidelity (and of those 100pc of the BS's get trickle truthed and get told half the story) - I'd like to hear his rationale as well.

How can he possibly know? Does he just think you 'should' trust her and that will magically make her trustworthy (a sort of build it and they will come philosophy) or does he really think all the people in his office who have trashed the trust in their marriage for a 'friendship' are actually telling him the truth when they gloss over the details?

If the latter, I have some nice pieces of jewellery to sell him as gold before they go green.

Perhaps he thinks only slimy Hollywood baddies have affairs, instead of it being a fairly common human failing, and your wife seems so nice and friendly.

Your wife was VISIBLY nervous when you looked at her emails wasn't she? I think she was fairly, but not absolutely, confident that she hadn't left anything there that was too bad - but she wasn't sure. That's because there is more.

I have requested another meeting before we meet as a couple with him to dialog about this exact matter... why he may think what he is thinking... and what does he really think... how does he know what her heart is... is he saying to just trust her. I don't think he is saying this though. What I don't want to do is just go in... she apologize... I forgive... done. Maybe that is what it should be. I hope or would desire he really examine why she is doing it? Does she not see the danger... does she not see the hurt it causes... how does she expect to have the marriage she claims she wants while continuing to harm her spouse.

Part of me wants someone to simply step on her toes and say point blank... "HEY... you are damaging your marriage with the deception and your opposite sex friends and you need to STOP! It needs to end now before you destroy any love your husband has left for you... and YES... your husband needs to stop the love busters he has... but since I am talking to you... STOP your love busting!!!"

I actually want my counselor to step on my toes and get in my face... it makes me confront both things I do in a poor way or my direct SIN. So I welcome in my face (well without anger). But here it is buddy... now what are you going to do about it!

On another note about lying... I have 15+ years of experience with her and one pattern has always existed... she avoids conflict... no matter what the subject. Over the years I have seen her lie about things that she new I may disagree with in my belief, but she didn't necessarily see a problem with... so instead of discussing and dealing with it she would just either not divulge anything and possibly lie.

This reminds me of one of the articles here where it talked about different types of liars... I think my wife is an avoidance liar. In general I don't catch her in lies with anyone else or anything other than what I might disagree with... again it isn't all the time, but it is clear she is an avoidance liar. I have to make it very easy for her and safe for her to come to me about things she may disagree with and find new ways to discuss (POJA).

The good thing is... since counseling she has shared more things or responded differently in a lot of ways even if it was something that might hurt my feelings... at least we can deal with those things. Can't deal with something hidden away until it comes out.

I have my beliefs and my convictions and I have no problem sharing them... but I think how I have shared them may have come across as disrespectful judgment or like this is how it should be based on my point of view or something like that where she felt she couldn't discuss. We both come from screwed up homes so we are now forced to learn how to properly communicate and deal with our brokenness.

Last night she did start the process to apologize for breaking the agreement, but I asked her if we could talk about this in counseling... to be honest I couldn't trust myself to not respond and say something wrong (judgment, anger or whatever). I was afraid to hear... sorry... and she not look like it really was an issue. As she started out it actually sounded that way. She got this part out before I asked if we could talk about it in counseling... "just wanted to say I was sorry for breaking agreement". It was sounding like apologizing for something simple like... "oops sorry I knocked over your cup" Maybe this is my problem... accepting apologies that just don't look genuine or as if the nature of the offense was not serious. So simply asked if we could do this in counseling.

Told you I am broken as well.

One struggle is her apologies in the past always seem so... trivial. Like the original year of lying. She simply says I am sorry I lied. Now from my Christian standpoint I need to accept the repentance and forgive... but it is very difficult when it looks like it was not really a big deal to her and that it was not a serious wound to the heart in marriage. I guess this is where we may apologize differently and I can't expect her to apologize like I do. For example.. when she shared the hurt I was causing back when we first went to counseling my heart hurt for her as I empathized how she may have felt. I was in tears for knowing I hurt my wife in some of the ways I did. But my wife was more like... sorry I lied and sorry I hurt you. Done. I can't judge her heart... but dang it is hard when it looks like it really isn't an apology.

While it may feel great to receive what you would call a heart felt apology, it is unnecessary for recovery. Many people get bogged down in whether an apology is genuine enough, but it is a needless distraction.

You can build a great marriage without either of you apologizing.

Markos used to apologize with tears in his eyes every time he lovebusted me. But nothing changed, and I came to hate the words "I'm sorry." On the other hand, Markos only received a genuine apology from me AFTER our marriage had been recovered for many months. On top of that, many, many men NEVER receive an apology yet still recover their marriages.

An apology is not vital to recovery.

Tomorrow I will be going in with my wife for our counseling appointment. I have not spoken to her (no love busters) about this latest issue described in the last few posts above. Will try to summarize here:

- I know she is going to apologized for breaking our agreement.

- I know she doesn't think having this friendship with opposite sex friend is wrong and she has always stated that it was nothing more than a good friend just like any of her female friends.

- In this latest situation she again did not reveal she was still interacting with him on some projects and when I found it out she said there was no personal interaction (all professional).

- I then found that there were at least 2 personal emails I could find where she reached out to OM1 personally and shared personal conversation (not about our marriage... just things she was doing and so on).

So in counseling she I am sure will apologize for breaking our agreement (she has already said this much when I asked her to wait until our counseling appointment for us to talk about issue)

So now I am trying to figure out what can I share or not share? I obviously want her to know that it was very hurtful... but one of my past patterns is telling how it hurts, but then sharing what about it I find wrong or what I find about the action that should not be happening. I think this may come across as disrespectful judgement.

So what (In the Marriage Builders way) should happen in this counseling session??? If she simply says sorry for breaking the agreement I can simply forgive (trust is broken though). But what room is there for discussion... how can I discuss and it not sound like I am judging. She most definitely feels like she has not had any sort of affair (sexual or emotional) so me referencing any materials from MB (which many times references some sort of affair) is more likely to just tick her off and make it a love buster moment.

Just trying to determine how best should I respond or handle this in the counseling session. I am so afraid I will handle it wrong or the counselor will make it sound like it was not a big deal... she apologized... move on without discussion or understanding why or whatever.

Please give some helpful feedback on how to handle myself tomorrow.

Thank you for this point of view. I will take it to heart and pray on it as I want to keep moving forward.

Unfortunately I have come to almost hate the I'm sorry that seems un-genuine. Even if the actions were not against me, but if I was watching some other marriage... it is hard to see someone not appear to truly own what they have done.

BUT I hear you and will deeply think on this some today. Thank you again for this point of view.

(I was writing another post when you posted so I know what you said here can carry over partly to my latest post).

1. Keep snooping
2. Insist that opposite sex friendships are painful to you. Don't try to educate her on how dangerous they are or tell her how wrong they are. Make it about you:
"Your opposite sex friendships hurt me and I would like them to stop."
"Why?"
"They just do, and I would like them to stop."
"What are you suggesting?!?"
"Only that they hurt me and I would like them to stop."
"I can have a male friend without it turning into something!"
"Yes, but it hurts me and I would like it to stop."

Repeat this complaint daily. Keep it on the front burner.

Thanks... now another question...

Let's say you are trying to do POJA in regards to OS friends. If a close friendship with OS is hurtful to me then based on POJA it doesn't happen. Now she could say that it is hurtful to her to have her restrict friendships with OS. So the claim is both of you are being hurt... myself by her relationships with OS and herself by denying those relationships because of my feelings.

Now personal I would say build friendships with same sex friends and we build OS friends as couples where neither of us is spending alone, personal building time with the OS. I find this as a good way to go, but she may say I am restricting her or hurting her.

I can see this possibly being turned around on my like I am the bad guy or doing something to her.

We do have an agreement that was done in counseling... but to be honest not sure she was enthusiastic about it as it meant she had to deny some relationships. But she did agree. This was before I learned some about POJA which I am still trying to wrap my head around as I can see someone trying to use it to restrict the other person... maybe she feels I am doing.

Anyway... just trying to pull this all together. I am tempted to call the coaching line with Dr Harley's son, but the price is a little steep for me financially.

What about writing Dr. Harley?