|
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 360
Member
|
Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 360 |
For me, I haven't "lost" anything if the mexican restaurant is replaced with a better option. People don't feel "loss" when they end up wiht better choices. Exactly. Thanks!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
In terms of my previous restaurant scenario, I might resent the fact that we never eat at the 6th restaurant, but that would be type B resentment because the other 5 alternatives are enjoyable for me. Asking my wife to eat at the 6th restaurant would be a type A resentment for her. And keep in mind, that most happy couples don't WANT to force their spouse into reluctant agreements. It does not feel like a "WIN" in any sense of the word. What will I have "won" if I force my husband to sacrifice and eat MExican? I get to sit there and watch him be miserable? That is not a "win" to me, but a loss.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 360
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 360 |
And keep in mind, that most happy couples don't WANT to force their spouse into reluctant agreements. It does not feel like a "WIN" in any sense of the word. What will I have "won" if I force my husband to sacrifice and eat MExican? I get to sit there and watch him be miserable? That is not a "win" to me, but a loss. What if your husband, once in a blue moon, said he wanted to go to a Mexican restaurant with you because he knows you love it. He'd be happy ordering a marguerita or a beer or something palatable, and he wants to do it just for you, maybe on your birthday. Would you go?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
And keep in mind, that most happy couples don't WANT to force their spouse into reluctant agreements. It does not feel like a "WIN" in any sense of the word. What will I have "won" if I force my husband to sacrifice and eat MExican? I get to sit there and watch him be miserable? That is not a "win" to me, but a loss. What if your husband, once in a blue moon, said he wanted to go to a Mexican restaurant with you because he knows you love it. He'd be happy ordering a marguerita or a beer or something palatable, and he wants to do it just for you, maybe on your birthday. Would you go? If I was convinced it was an enthuisastic agreement. He had a terrible habit of making reluctant agreements [sacrifice] because he "wanted to make me happy." It just made me miserable because he could never successfully mask his discomfort. BUT....to your point, he typically rejects Cheesecake Factory because of various reasons, but he took me there on my birthday when he found out they have avocado rolls. He really loved them and was happy to go.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650 |
The key to understanding the POJA is that it is not a loss, but a gain. It is not a loss to find a better option. If I find a better home than I live in now, I do not feel "loss", I feel GAIN. I didn't mean to hijack this thread, but one more comment. I live in a town where there are 6 restaurants (I really do!), and I like eating at all of them. My wife likes all but one of them. I'm more than happy to limit our restaurant choices to the 5 she likes because I wouldn't be happy eating at the one restaurant she doesn't like. By POJA'ing restaurants, I have 5 choices instead of the 6 I'd have if I went out to eat by myself. It doesn't feel like a loss because I want us both to be happy, but the fact is, I eliminate the 6th restaurant from our list of choices whenever we go out to eat. There are times when I wish she would like that 6th restaurant, but I know that when we go out to eat, the best options are the restaurants we both like. (In case you didn't know, I'm an engineer and sometimes look at things mathematically.  Since 5 is less than 6, I "lost" a choice, but I agree with you in that it doesn't "feel" like loss.) There are a lot more than five options when it comes to eating together when you get the hang of being creative. What about a candlelit dinner in the park? Cold chicken and champagne with a telescope and map of the stars, hunting a new one you will name for each other? A blanket picnic and skinny dipping? Barbecuing on the beach, takeout picnic from one restaurant while you fly kites, a cooking class, baking at home and eating the results in bed... And if you're talking dates rather than food, there are even more options still. Going to the zoo, learning something new, hiking, photography, chess. Why I know couples who think the words date and restaurant are synonyms. While I love a good restaurant THAT is my idea of narrow minded and refusing to expand horizons. Picking one option and obsessing over it. The only limit to options is your own creativity.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650 |
And keep in mind, that most happy couples don't WANT to force their spouse into reluctant agreements. It does not feel like a "WIN" in any sense of the word. What will I have "won" if I force my husband to sacrifice and eat MExican? I get to sit there and watch him be miserable? That is not a "win" to me, but a loss. What if your husband, once in a blue moon, said he wanted to go to a Mexican restaurant with you because he knows you love it. He'd be happy ordering a marguerita or a beer or something palatable, and he wants to do it just for you, maybe on your birthday. Would you go? Wow have you tried doing this? It's a disaster. The person is simply putting up with your idea of a date and being nice. I don't want my date to humour me. I don't want to be a boring date. I want to laugh until we are breathless, be silly and really truly happy, being together at your happiest ( not most sacrificial) is where it's at.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650 |
And keep in mind, that most happy couples don't WANT to force their spouse into reluctant agreements. It does not feel like a "WIN" in any sense of the word. What will I have "won" if I force my husband to sacrifice and eat MExican? I get to sit there and watch him be miserable? That is not a "win" to me, but a loss. What if your husband, once in a blue moon, said he wanted to go to a Mexican restaurant with you because he knows you love it. He'd be happy ordering a marguerita or a beer or something palatable, and he wants to do it just for you, maybe on your birthday. Would you go? Actually rereading this, it depends whether they would really BE happy or just act happy. If they are acting, they would be losing love bank units throughout the date.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 360
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 360 |
Actually rereading this, it depends whether they would really BE happy or just act happy.
If they are acting, they would be losing love bank units throughout the date. This reminds me of bcboyb's earlier comment about depending on the personality of the individual. For some people, it may be more natural to be happy making someone else happy; for others, it would be, as you say, more of an act than genuine happiness. Melody's is an example of your distinction between being happy and acting happy: If I was convinced it was an enthuisastic agreement. He had a terrible habit of making reluctant agreements [sacrifice] because he "wanted to make me happy." It just made me miserable because he could never successfully mask his discomfort. If her husband is enthusiastic about doing something "just for her," that's wonderful because it makes both of them happy. On the other hand, neither of them will be happy if he tries to mask his reluctance. I think people who are naturals at being happy by making others happy have to be careful to keep the giver parts of their personalities in check.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
[If her husband is enthusiastic about doing something "just for her," that's wonderful because it makes both of them happy. That is the definition of sacrifice and is to be avoided. People who "sacrifice" for the happiness of others tend to keep score. That is a renters approach.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650 |
If her husband is enthusiastic about doing something "just for her," that's wonderful because it makes both of them happy. On the other hand, neither of them will be happy if he tries to mask his reluctance.
I think people who are naturals at being happy by making others happy have to be careful to keep the giver parts of their personalities in check. If someone has a high admiration need, they will always enjoy making people happy. That's OK if they are doing a neutral or pleasant thing. If they find something negative about the experience though: my feet hurt when I shop/hate the smell of seafood restaurants etc, then you should avoid. The feeling of romantic love is like attachment/aversion therapy. If the spouse becomes associated with something unpleasant or just plain boring over time, the feeling of love goes.
Last edited by indiegirl; 07/08/14 04:32 PM.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
In other words, sacrifice should be avoided. It just creates incompatibility and the person doing all the sacrifice eventually stops doing it.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 267
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 267 |
I understand that sacrifice should be avoided in accordance with Dr. Harleys philosophy. If you adhere to Christian beliefs there is the potential for internal conflict as sacrifice is portrayed as pleasing to God. I have sat through many sermons where sacrifice is encouraged and expected.
Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God - Hebrews 13:16
Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Philipians 2:4
In North American society sacrifice is revered, such as soldiers in the war paying the supreme sacrifice to maintain our freedoms.
As a society we publicly recognize individuals and reward them with medals and esteem them in the media.
This type of thought process could easily spill over into how we approach a relationship where sacrifice is not only honourable but encouraged to demonstrate depth of character. So it is reasonable for some believing segments of society to deduce that if a person feels resentment for sacrifice they somehow are lacking in character? Just wondering?
Me 58 BS
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
I understand that sacrifice should be avoided in accordance with Dr. Harleys philosophy. If you adhere to Christian beliefs there is the potential for internal conflict as sacrifice is portrayed as pleasing to God. I have sat through many sermons where sacrifice is encouraged and expected. Dr. Harley is a Christian and this program is based on Christian principles. It is a good thing to sacrifice for your neighbors, children, etc. NOT a good thing in marriage. It ruins marriages because pretty soon the one doing the sacrificing quits and checks out of the marriage. Dr. Harley addressed this issue over on the private forum [in addition to numerous radio shows] Bluesman wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with the MB opinion that sacrifice does not tend to create appreciation. My father worked 3 jobs to support our family and my mother always took care of my father, my sisters, and myself before satisfying her own wants and needs. I have profound appreciation and love for these efforts. I have seen many successful marriages that involve sacrifice in raising autistic and handicapped children. In my marital experience during the first few years, I sacrificed enthusiastically to try to attain a peaceful and loving sanctuary for our marriage. These efforts failed because it seems that the more I gave, more was expected of me. It seems the priority of our marriage is that her needs (and all her wants, there is a difference between wants and needs) were met when she wanted and how she wanted TO THE LETTER. Otherwise the destructive cycles continue. She has always had the freedom to do what she wants. Should one not show gratitude for this and all the other blessings the good Lord has bestowed upon us?
Please W, be truthful. And please please be honest who has given and who has taken in our marriage. And please please take responsibility for your part in curtailing the giver and empowering the taker. If sacrifice was all you say it was, we wouldn't be talking about it. A sacrifice is a unilateral gift, something that doesn't require appreciation because it's given unconditionally. My point is that, while there is a place for sacrifice in life, in marriage it tends to be sore spot. When one spouse gives to the other sacrificially, even if it's done enthusiastically, it tends to be unappreciated. If appreciation is required, it's no longer unconditional or sacrifical. Something is expected in return that makes the act worth doing, which takes it out of the realm of sacrifice.
I suggest that you and your wife leave the past in the past and begin negotiating for your future together, with mutual respect and appreciation for what you do for each other.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
I have sat through many sermons where sacrifice is encouraged and expected. Dr. Harley has had to save many of those marriages over the years. He wrote this to a man on our forum who was telling women they should "sacrifice" and engage in sexual acts that they found revolting. Here is what he wrote to that person: Uh, where do I begin. I can't tell you how many couples I've counseled where one spouse did just what you suggested -- sacrifice their own enjoyment for the pleasure of their spouse. The reason I'm counseling them, of course, is that the one doing the sacrificing eventually can't take giving without receiving anymore, and wants a divorce. One recent case that comes to mind is a pastor's wife. He gave your message to his wife throughout their marriage. They have reconciled, but only because he finally understands the concept of mutual care. Unless both he and his wife enjoy their sexual experience, she comes to hate it. Now they make love almost every day, not out of sacrifice, but out of mutual enthusiastic agreement. By the way, they've given up OS.
It's dangerous stuff you're recommending. It ruins marriages.
Best wishes,
Dr. Harley
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
This type of thought process could easily spill over into how we approach a relationship where sacrifice is not only honourable but encouraged to demonstrate depth of character. I disagree with this 1000%. A caring, loving marriage is characterized by mutual care, not by one sided care. I don't want my husband to sacrifice for my happiness because his happiness is too important to me. My marriage and my husbands happiness is too important to sacrifice. I want a happy marriage, not one of suffering and sacrifice. I would also point out that people who sacrifice in marriage tend to keep score and when the score is not even, resentment ensues. Why go that route when there are so many better ways?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15,818 Likes: 7
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15,818 Likes: 7 |
I understand that sacrifice should be avoided in accordance with Dr. Harleys philosophy. If you adhere to Christian beliefs there is the potential for internal conflict as sacrifice is portrayed as pleasing to God. I have sat through many sermons where sacrifice is encouraged and expected. Not all sacrifice is pleasing to God. In marriage a recompense can and should be made. This is not a scenario where God calls for sacrifice. Read Luke 14:12-14 closely to find out why Jesus does not want you to sacrifice in a relationship where the other person is able to repay you: http://biblehub.com/luke/14-12.htmhttp://biblehub.com/luke/14-13.htmhttp://biblehub.com/luke/14-14.htmMy wife is perfectly capable of repaying me in marriage, and so I do not sacrifice for her. If she became disabled and unable to recompense me, that would be a different story. In the meantime, we make our sacrifices to God jointly by giving to those who cannot repay us. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Philipians 2:4 That verse stands against what you are saying, though. It says to look out for both interests, not to eliminate your own interests. So it is reasonable for some believing segments of society to deduce that if a person feels resentment for sacrifice they somehow are lacking in character? Just wondering? Calling people lacking in character is disrespectful, so this should never be done in marriage.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 267
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 267 |
[/quote]
Calling people lacking in character is disrespectful, so this should never be done in marriage. I do not disagree with this concept. My contention is we receive conflicting advice from the pulpit. After one such sermon on sacrifice I had a conversation with the Pastor who extolled the virtues of sacrifice and that it was not sacrifice if it came easily, and to not sacrifice shows a lack of maturity and character. No wonder there is so much confusion on how to run a successful relationship. I had an interesting conversation with a young man the other day. He is in my estimation 22 - 24 age range. He was telling me that neither he or any of the guys he hangs out with have any intention of getting married. In his estimation it is too difficult and the expectations are too high. I asked him if he thought this was a commonly held attitude beyond his age group, beyond his friends. His response was "for sure". Why would you want to get married? Marriages don't last. The times they are a changing. When I grew up the concept of divorce was foreign. It only happened in very few extreme circumstances. To listen to this young fellow makes me think Yogi Berra was correct when he coined the phrase "the future ain't what it used to be". But I digress. I would like to thank the contributors to this thread for your thoughts and ideas. As the good book says iron sharpens iron. Cheers BCBoy
Me 58 BS
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 11,650 |
I don't think it is just the church afflicted with a love of martyrdom. Goodness, you can see it in all walks of life. There are bosses who don't like to see employees enjoying their work too much and just people in general who don't like to see people being too happy.
Why, I remember my mother attracting criticism because she enjoyed her life as a SAHM. It was hard work but doable and rewarding. Unlike most mothers she also ensured she had time out with babysitters and fun experiences with my father. The women who were drowning in juggle balls and doing two jobs at once with no help felt she simply wasn't suffering enough.
People think it's important that we are willing to suffer and they are not entirely wrong. As Markos pointed out, life will probably eventually dole us out a situation where it will be all hard work for little reward. Everyone has rough patches where there is not much fun on the horizon. While illness and hard fortune or war may cause these periods - I don't think our spouse should be inventing examples of sacrifice simply for their own amusement and fulfilment.
The important thing is not to make sacrifice a habit so it ruins all the sunshine in life. Where can we be more sure of sunshine than in the decisions we make with the person who loves us best?
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,433
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,433 |
I do not disagree with this concept. My contention is we receive conflicting advice from the pulpit. After one such sermon on sacrifice I had a conversation with the Pastor who extolled the virtues of sacrifice and that it was not sacrifice if it came easily, and to not sacrifice shows a lack of maturity and character. No wonder there is so much confusion on how to run a successful relationship. If you go to the wrong source, you are bound to receive the wrong advice. On DDay, I turned first to our Pastor. He was clueless. He actually turned out to be an affair facilitator. He told my wife to just stop, with no further support, as if the affair was just a bad choice and not an addiction. He encouraged her to withhold the identity of the OM from me, and to keep the affair a secret. He told me just to forgive her, with no accountability whatsoever. My point - just because somebody has the reputation of looking to God for answers doesn't mean he actually has them. The fact is that a great marriage is hard work. Things like problem solving by sacrifice and handing out cheap forgiveness are actually shortcuts around the real work of building a great marriage. And what do you think the consequence of taking shortcuts will be? We see it here all the time. So stop regarding sacrifice in marriage as noble. It is the lazy way out, and it is destructive. Great marriages are very God-pleasing. Dr. Harley's concepts lead to great marriages. Mine is an example of one that recovered from a very dire state by following these concepts. Pastors, marriage counselors, and individual therapists have a horrible track record. What does the Bible say about who to listen to? - "You shall know them by their fruits".
me-65
wife-61
married for 40 years
DS - 38, autistic, lives at home
DD - 37, married and on her own
DS - 32, still living with us
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,362 Likes: 3
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,362 Likes: 3 |
I had an interesting conversation with a young man the other day. He is in my estimation 22 - 24 age range. He was telling me that neither he or any of the guys he hangs out with have any intention of getting married. In his estimation it is too difficult and the expectations are too high. I asked him if he thought this was a commonly held attitude beyond his age group, beyond his friends. His response was "for sure". Why would you want to get married? Marriages don't last.
Times they are a changing . When I grew up the concept of divorce was foreign. It only happened in very few extreme circumstances. To listen to this young fellow makes me think Yogi Berra was correct when he coined the phrase "the future ain't what it used to be". But I digress. "What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done: and there is nothing new under the sun." Ecclesiastes 1:9
|
|
|
Moderated by Ariel, BerlinMB, Denali, Fordude, IrishGreen, MBeliever, MBsurvivor, MBSync, McLovin, Mizar, PhoenixMB, Toujours
|
0 members (),
623
guests, and
50
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
