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I am writing this post because I could really use some feedback on an issue my spouse and I are having concerning alcohol. I was raised in a family in which drinking is common, my mom has 3 or more glasses of wine in the evening on a semi-normal basis, when we had family get togethers most if not all the adults drank. we weren't the kind of family who would have fist fights or drama at family get togethers, it was more like a country club family and the wine and laughter flowed. My wife on the other hand grew up in a family that never drank. Ever. We have been married eight years and have had constant fights about drinking. She doesnt want me to drink at all, and I of course want to every now and then. There have been times in the past in which I drank too much, and so the idea of my drinking at all fills her with anxiety. No DUI's or infidelity or physical/verbal abuse, but I must admit I have gotten drunk in the past.
I have tried to come to a compromise with her concerning this issue, I offered to never have more than one drink at a time (this was a stretch for me, on social occasions in which I grew up 6 or 7 was not uncommon). Anyway, I presented this idea to her of my agreeing to only ever have one drink at a time (never 2 in one day) and she still was unwilling to consider it. Says she cannot handle her anxiety surrounding the issue.
I was reading the good doctor's thoughts on this topic: "Some people wonder if they are really alcoholics. They may not go to bars, and they may not even get drunk very often. What is an alcoholic? My definition of an alcoholic is someone who cannot follow the Policy of Joint Agreement because of their craving for alcohol. If your drinking in any form bothers your spouse, and you cannot or will not give it up for his or her sake, I consider you an alcoholic because alcohol is more important to you than the feelings of your spouse."
this is confusing to me because I thought the whole idea behind POJA was for both people to enthusiastically agree. she will only enthusiastically agree to my completely abstaining, and but I cannot see how I could enthusiastically agree to that. I could almost enthusiastically agree to a limit of 1 or 2, but it just seems unreasonable to me to demand complete abstinence from alcohol. Anyway, my point is, how does POJA work in a situation like that? I am frustrated because my wife is unwilling to compromise with me, and I thought that was what poja is about. Thoughts?
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You should only drink when you have her ENTHUSIASTIC AGREEMENT. Remember, that is the basis of the policy of joint agreement. You don't NEED to be enthusiastic about quitting, because you never should have started in the first place if she wasn't enthusiastic about it.
Why not just quit? Would you allow bananas to ruin your marriage like this? How ridiculous would that be? Alcohol is just a drink. Find a drink she is enthusiastic about and move on.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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For instance, have you tried Lipton green tea? It is really a wonderful drink and my husband loves it. Snapple peach tea is another awesome drink.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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First, let me review how incompatibility is created. It begins when one spouse does something in his or her own best interest that's not in the other spouse's best interest. An example is having an affair. People have an affair because it meets their emotional needs and makes them feel good. The fact that the affair hurts their spouse does not deter them. An affair creates instant incompatibility because as long as it's tolerated, there's no way that a couple can live together in harmony.
All other acts of self-interest at the other's expense also creates incompatibility in various degrees. Incompatibility, therefore, is simply the accumulation of thoughtless habits and activities. The more of them a couple tries to tolerate, the more incompatible they are.
Most marriages start off with very few thoughtless habits because successful courting usually gets rid of them. Couples who are considering marriage go to great pains to behave thoughtfully because, if they don't, they won't get to the altar.
But after marriage, thoughtless behavior usually begins to grow. In the name of personal freedom, private interests and expanding horizons, spouses develop habits and activities that do not take each other's feelings into account. Before long, they are no longer compatible.
The bottom line is that couples need to eliminate behavior that is good for one and bad for the other, even if it makes the one eliminating it feel bad. Truth is, it should never have been there in the first place, and all you're doing is eliminating a bad habit. It's like telling a child molester to stop molesting children. It may make him feel bad to stop, but he should never have gotten started in the first place.
Now I'll get to your question, how should people deal with the disappointments of giving up thoughtless behavior?
The more pleasure a spouse gets from his or her thoughtless behavior, the more difficult it is to eliminate. Affairs, which are usually intensely pleasurable, are very difficult to eliminate because the withdrawal symptoms are so severe. A spouse having an affair goes through deep depression when he or she tries to leave the lover. Even every-day pleasurable activities, such as Monday Night Football, can leave a husband depressed if his wife puts it on her termination list. The truth is, whenever we try to stop doing something we like, we miss it, and experience some sadness in its wake.
Having spent some of my life helping people overcome addiction (when I operated chemical dependency treatment clinics), I am very aware of how difficult it is to give up something that gives a person considerable pleasure. The procedure we used was to provide emotional support to help people keep the commitment they had made. Since I operated outpatient clinics, our clients would call all hours of the day or night when they were tempted to start drinking again. The worst of it was during the first few weeks of sobriety, but as time passed, it was easier and easier for them to remain sober.
I believe that the same principle applies to overcoming very enjoyable but thoughtless behaviors in marriage. At first, you may need support from someone who can not only provide emotional encouragement, but also accountability. Sometimes a pastor or good same-sex friend can fill the bill. If none of those people are available, a marriage counselor provides that support and accountability as part of his or her job. In the most serious cases, I go so far as to recommend anti-depressant medication to someone who experiences severe withdrawal symptoms.
As time separates a person from the enjoyable habit, the depression and resentment subside and he or she returns to normal. But if a slip occurs, and the person returns to the habit, in many cases the process of withdrawal must begin all over again. This is most obvious when working with alcoholics and those having an affair. One drink or one phone call to the lover is all it takes to plunge the person back into the captivity of their addiction.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Your wife is not enthusiastic about your drinking alcohol, so POJA says you can't do it. My wife and I regularly go out for tea together at a local coffee shop. It is a wonderful way to get some private UA time. Why wouldn't you prefer a fantastic experience like that to drinking alcohol when you know it upsets her?
me-65
wife-61
married for 40 years
DS - 38, autistic, lives at home
DD - 37, married and on her own
DS - 32, still living with us
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Thank you for your responses. lots to ponder there. I do have one question. You wrote "Would you allow bananas to ruin your marriage like this? How ridiculous would that be?"
So hypothetically speaking, if a spouse was horribly unhappy about his or her spouses choice to eat bananas, or drink diet coke, is the problem the thoughtless spouse who persists in eating bananas, or is the problem the overly picky nutcase who has a problem with their spouses horrible banana habit? my point is, are their general rules of thumb to protect against the abuse of POJA stuff? It seems like my wife has a problem with everything I do. If I read a crime novel, she worries i might read something inappropriate. If i watch a movie, she is scared I might lust after a woman in it. if i drink one beer, she worries i will drink a whole bunch more. I feel like I am living under the tyranny of her anxiety, and no matter how many "bad habits" I give up it will never be enough, and I will be miserable. I dont really have a problem with anything she does...except her irritating habit of always having a problem with stuff I like to do for fun. I am going bananas
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Thank you for your responses. lots to ponder there. I do have one question. You wrote "Would you allow bananas to ruin your marriage like this? How ridiculous would that be?"
So hypothetically speaking, if a spouse was horribly unhappy about his or her spouses choice to eat bananas, or drink diet coke, is the problem the thoughtless spouse who persists in eating bananas, or is the problem the overly picky nutcase who has a problem with their spouses horrible banana habit? The problem is the spouse who eats bananas and calls his wife a "nutcase." The general rule of thumb is this: don't annoy your spouse. If I read a crime novel, she worries i might read something inappropriate. Then stop it. If i watch a movie, she is scared I might lust after a woman in it. Then stop it. if i drink one beer, she worries i will drink a whole bunch more. Then stop it. I feel like I am living under the tyranny of her anxiety, and no matter how many "bad habits" I give up it will never be enough, and I will be miserable. If not annoying your spouse is a "tyranny" then I question why you are married. Don't you want a happy marriage? Don't you WANT to have a wife who is in love with you? I dont really have a problem with anything she does...except her irritating habit of always having a problem with stuff I like to do for fun. I am going bananas A complaint is an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage and an irritation in a bad marriage. In a healthy marriage, complaints are addressed and resolved. In a bad marriage, they are met with irritation and the marriage eventually falls apart. These 2 articles might change your perspective: How to Deal with a Quarrelsome and Nagging Wife Complaining in Marriage
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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A complaint is like getting an overdraft notice from the bank. It is a warning that you are losing love units in your marriage. Every complaint that you ignore is a little hit on the love she feels for you. It goes down and down. You might not like getting an overdraft notice from the bank, but the alternative is much worse. And the longer you ignore the "bank notices" from your wife, the more your account goes into the red.
I don't know about you, but I want my husband to be in love with me. When he tells something makes him unhappy, I stop doing it because I care deeply about my marriage.
I want my husband to be happy with me, not miserable.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I feel like I am living under the tyranny of her anxiety, and no matter how many "bad habits" I give up it will never be enough, and I will be miserable. You won't be miserable in a happy, passionate, romantic marriage. If you will give up all the behavior that annoys her, we will help you both fall in love again. People who are head over heels in love are not "miserable." They are joyful and happy.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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She is annoying me by having a problem with all of my recreational activities. Should she "stop it"? what I am getting at is, it seems like POJA can lead to one spouse continuously bending over for the other without reciprocity. What if your cute husband hated the fact that you spent time on this forum giving advice to strange, selfish alcoholic men and wanted you to stop? Even if there was no legitimate reason for him to be worried, would you forsake this forum if your posting annoyed your spouse? I appreciate you taking the time to write back.
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She is annoying me by having a problem with all of my recreational activities. Should she "stop it"? what I am getting at is, it seems like POJA can lead to one spouse continuously bending over for the other without reciprocity. What if your cute husband hated the fact that you spent time on this forum giving advice to strange, selfish alcoholic men and wanted you to stop? Even if there was no legitimate reason for him to be worried, would you forsake this forum if your posting annoyed your spouse? I appreciate you taking the time to write back. Go back to rule #1: never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse. If you chose recreational activities that she was enthusiastic about, she wouldn't complain, would she? When you do things that annoy her, it is her job [radical honesty] to tell you. If she doesn't tell you, you won't know to change your behavior. If my husband asked me to stop posting on Marriage Builders, of course I would stop. The forum is not more important than my husbands feelings. It is really very simple. If you want your wife to stop complaining, then stop doing things that annoy her. REAL EASY.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I appreciate you taking the time to write back. You are very welcome! 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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You seem to be focus on one marriage policy POJA which is fine. In POJA your job is to make sure she wins and she is to make sure you win not for any of you to be selfish.
Annoying habits is a love buster and if you love your wife you would give up that habit. You also need to have your best recreational activities with your wife.
I use to truly feel my wife was overly sensitive and in fact I was so convinced that I convinced others. The truth is that I was the problem and very insensitive, fortunately she hung in there to allow me to change.
If you fail to take your wife's concerns seriously you will loss her. You need to find out all the things you do to annoy her so that you can stop doing it, from the one of highest importance down. Your wife is not asking you to stop drinking for selfish reasons, but because she still cares greatly for you. If you are not an alcoholic then stopping shouldn't be that big of a deal.
You guys need to discover new activities and drinks that you can both enjoy together.
Me 40M
Wife 43F
3 kids 9M, 5M, 1F
Together 15 yrs, Married 10 yrs, live together most of our dating life. Did not live together our year of our engagement. Working hard to fall more in love with my wife.
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You wrote: "Annoying habits is a love buster and if you love your wife you would give up that habit."
I guess for a long time I have believed that if: 1. What I was doing was morally acceptable, and 2. If my wife had a problem with it, then 3: My wife is the problem, and not me.
Perhaps I should re-evaluate that idea. It is just so freaking infuriating that I should have to give up something I enjoy not because it is wrong, but because it bothers her. I guess I take for granted that if something is not morally wrong, it shouldn't bother people. It seems like the idea behind POJA is that if it bothers your spouse, it is wrong, which seems ludicrous to me. Maybe instead I should think: if it bothers your spouse, it wont work (rather than it is wrong). moralism gives way to pragmatism. Oi vay.
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Prookatz,
If you are unable to stop drinking alcohol because it offends your wife then you have a problem.
6 or 7 drinks is excessive alcohol consumption.
If in doubt, ask your family doctor
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You wrote: "Annoying habits is a love buster and if you love your wife you would give up that habit."
I guess for a long time I have believed that if: 1. What I was doing was morally acceptable, and 2. If my wife had a problem with it, then 3: My wife is the problem, and not me.
Perhaps I should re-evaluate that idea. It is just so freaking infuriating that I should have to give up something I enjoy not because it is wrong, but because it bothers her. I guess I take for granted that if something is not morally wrong, it shouldn't bother people. It seems like the idea behind POJA is that if it bothers your spouse, it is wrong, which seems ludicrous to me. Maybe instead I should think: if it bothers your spouse, it wont work (rather than it is wrong). moralism gives way to pragmatism. Oi vay. It is not insane to show care and consider your wife's feelings. When you become married, you agree to show love and care.
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Perhaps I should re-evaluate that idea. It is just so freaking infuriating that I should have to give up something I enjoy not because it is wrong, but because it bothers her. I guess I take for granted that if something is not morally wrong, it shouldn't bother people. It seems like the idea behind POJA is that if it bothers your spouse, it is wrong, which seems ludicrous to me. Maybe instead I should think: if it bothers your spouse, it wont work (rather than it is wrong). moralism gives way to pragmatism. Oi vay. It seems to ludicrous to care about your wife's feelings?  Maybe instead you should ask yourself: do I want my wife to be in love with me or not? If so, I will stop annoying habits. Do you think that someone would bother dating you if you persisted in annoying behavior? No, that person would dump you. So why do you think your wife would love you if did things to annoy her? Every time you do something she doesn't like you just tell her you don't care about her feelings. You are killing the love in your marriage. Is that what you want?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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So you only get annoyed by things that are morally wrong?
If so you are quite unusual. I don't know any other human being where that is the case. Almost everyone has a dislike that isn't immoral. I don't like finger tapping. Is it morally wrong? Hell no, it is a sign of good rhythm. That person probably has great musical taste. But a considerate person would check whether or not I dislike it before making me put up with it. Then there are dislikes of perfectly moral foodstuffs - take liver. Very good for you. However there's a healthy number of people who wouldn't thank you if you served it to them. There are people who don't allow blue cheese in the house. Joyce Harley hates the smell of sardines. They make her physically sick. If she tried to avoid being an 'overly picky nutcase' and to endure them in the home for Dr H, she would end up avoiding him. Not because sardines are immoral but because he would smell. They are not to her taste and a considerate H knows this.
Considerate people consider amoral preferences like the way they taste and smell to their spouse and yes, the effect of alcohol on their behaviour. Some people don't mind the slight effect of alcohol on your social demeanour, others do. It all depends on how OK you are with offending the company you are with when you know they don�t like it.
Once you start applying the morally wrong test, the entire fabric of MB comes apart. Why should a woman meet her H's need for PA or SF under the 'is it moral' test? Under the 'is it moral' test she can just consider him picky and conclude that a request for makeup is shallow. Under the MB test she should consider his feelings and preferences when making the decision. Under the morally wrong test, he should love her anyway and she is free to ignore his need.
Dr H says consideration of a spouse's feelings is so important you should review all things you would consider any and all deal breakers prior to marriage. Things like religious practices and political persuasion and raising of the children etc because you can't do them if they offend your spouse. What you are talking about is what type of wet stuff to consume. Is it truly that important to you?
Think about what bugs you. Really bugs you. Chances are it isn't something that is morally wrong.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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If i watch a movie, she is scared I might lust after a woman What are you doing to ease her fear that you will lust for these women? What are you doing that causes this fear in her?
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If i watch a movie, she is scared I might lust after a woman What are you doing to ease her fear that you will lust for these women? What are you doing that causes this fear in her? I don't see why this is considered irrational. It's a fact of life that men respond visually to naked women so of course it is threatening to women that we live in an age where your H sees naked women constantly. Come and talk to us when movies start to feature men full frontal in detail and your wife is watching avidly as though she has never seen one of those before. Women don't strip off in movies to be ignored by the viewer and other women know this full well. I cover my boyfriend's eyes and he thinks it's cute.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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