I'm not aware of a recovering lesbian couple on MB, are you getting different sites mixed up?



But what help can we offer? We are not psychologists, Dr H is. He's designed a plan which isn't going to work for you. The central design of it is that men and women are different and he has discovered how to use those differences to best effect. The legality of the marriage is also crucial. Using this plan for you would be like giving a right handed person left handed scissors. It's not designed with your needs in mind.

I thought contacting him directly to see if tweaking is possible might help, but his advice on the matter is published and plain to see. At any rate it is clear he hasn't discovered a way to successfully help gay couples with their problems.

It's flattering that you think posters here have the know-how to take a psychologist's plan and tweak it to a different purpose but that is way above my pay grade at any rate.

I'm sorry you're in a position we can't help with but sometimes it is just hard luck. There are betrayed posters too who cannot recover because the conditions or necessary treatment just isn't available. You're not being ignored because you were the wrong doer. If I had help to suggest I would.

I really sympathize with your situation and feel you are truly remorseful and sincere.

If that helps even a little bit, i am glad.

But, i think the other posters are not able to advise you due to the MB advice seemingly not being applicable in your situation.

You can e-mail Dr. Harley and leave your phone number and either be replied to via a written response or be an anonymous guest on their daily MB Radio show, which loops the broadcast for the next continuous 24 hours.

Click on the Radio link for further information on how to do so.

I feel that would be your best way to get a professionally based well informed guidance.

I wish i could offer supportive advice, but that's the best that i think i am allowed to offer on your topic without it being deleted.

LTL

P.S..
The other poster and her spouse got married in another state due to their home state not recognizing gay marriages as legal.....yet.

We'll I thank you all anyway but I plan to continue to read the program as the betrayer. Man or woman, I am at fault and I'm more than willing to learn from my mistakes.

I see a therapist weekly, outside advice is helpful too.

If I went to another state and got married, it would still make no difference where I live now. Much like the other poster who went out of town.

I plan to continue to go down the right path, with her or not, I want to do the right thing.

I should warn you that most of here tried to tweak the plan when we first arrived. I most certainly did not see the sense in following it exactly - I felt sure that x, y and z did not really matter and I could ignore that angle.

It was a disaster. It didn't work. Every day someone else tries to modify Dr H's advice and fails miserably. It's designed to be followed exactly and even minor deviations are catastrophic. It's like taking a screw out if a complex machine and saying 'oh I'm sure that such a tiny part can't matter' - yet it always does.

Your relationship future is the most important thing in your life. Don't halfass it. Don't DIY your own plan based on the advice of a man you don't even agree with.

With any goal in life, find someone who has successfully achieved what you want and ask them how they did it.

If you think it is so easy for a same sex unmarried couple to recover from cheating, then it stands to reason that someone will have done it and their plan would be available. With a successful track record to boot. In contrast Dr H says it can't be done, you disagree, yet it's his advice you will be following?

That's hardly consistent.

His advice should apply to any kind of relationship. I completely agree with his plan and feelings. Love is love! I want a deep relationship with the one I love. Communication , honesty, trust, willing to be open, being equal to your partner, making enthusiastic plans should all be apart of any true relationship.

Maybe it 'should' but it doesn't. I had the exact same response to one of his articles - the opposite sex friend one - when I arrived. I felt that if two people were genuinely in love then it 'should' not matter that they have an OS friend.

Cue affair between my H and his female friend.

The brain doesn't abide by yours and my rules though. It doesn't give a fig about what it 'should' do. It does the job it was evolved to do. Fight, flight, lust, stress.

The plan totally and absolutely ignores what people think our minds 'should' do. Instead it focuses on what the mind DOES do. Including stupid stuff like have affairs.

Dr H doesn't have time for ineffective debate about what his plans should achieve. Lots of parents have said that they should be able to recover without spending less time with their children to go on dates. People say a spouse who cheated in a good job should not have to give up that job. Dr H says that is their call, however he has never found a way for people to indulge their 'shoulds' and still have the plan work. It always fails when people go there.

Central to the whole plan is his study of male and female brains. .PoJA for example uses the male perspective and the female perspective to make a couple wiser as two than they are as individuals.

Lots of people throughout history have felt the female brain 'should' be identical to the male one. Dr H doesn't because he has seen how much it adds to the male perspective in PoJA.

Then there is commitment. Should it matter? The fact is it does. A couple can cripple their odds dramatically statistically by deciding to live together. No one is making those sums up.

Dr. Harley has been pretty clear about the non applicability of MB principles to same-sex relationships. You are free to try whatever you want. We just can't help you very much, because there is no science to support it. Successful methods with traditional heterosexual marriages simply don't automatically extend to other types just because people want them to. We can no more imply success for you than we can imply success for a plural marriage.

The main issue is not that you aren't married, but that you are in a lesbian relationship. [even though not being married is an issue, it is not the main issue] Marriage Builders concepts are created and tested on male/female relationships and they work because of the dynamics in those relationships. Trying to use concepts that were created and tested on male/female relationships is very much like trying to use the concepts on unmarried couples. They just don't work because the dynamics are very different. Marriage Builders is not all things to all people.

Dr. Harley, if he counseled you in person would try to persuade you to pursue heterosexual relationships because he does not believe that homosexual relationships are healthy for the persons involved. He would ask you if it wouldn't be preferable if you felt the same romantic love for someone of the opposite sex? That is where he would try to steer your thinking.

We can help you with that if you want to go that route.

It doesn't. He doesn't make the claim it does either.

No thank you, I am happy with me as far as being gay goes.

If you enjoy your life, then by all means continue on the current course.

I am in a lesbian relationship and reached out to Dr. Harley directly because my wife and I are currently separated due to her affair. Here is his response to a question I sent him:

"Hi BS,

As you probably know, we usually don�t give advice to same-sex partners because our primary experience is with heterosexual couples. But assuming that the same principles would work, I would begin by asking if during your 20 years together prior to marriage either of you had cheated on the other, even for just an overnight stand. It would establish a pattern of cheating and then getting back together again throughout your relationship. It would only be a matter of time for your partner to finally return if that�s been your lifelong pattern.

On the other hand, if you never cheated on each other, the marriage itself may have had something to do with the difficulty of getting back. In heterosexual marriages, living together before marriage is a notorious factor in divorce after marriage. The marriage makes spouses feel trapped after they had been used to the freedom of living together without a permanent commitment. It also establishes a level of independence that is not acceptable in marriage.

As to the issue of exposure, I�m sure you know that heterosexual exposure is generally just as frowned on in the heterosexual community as outing is the same-sex community. But we recommend it because of the effect that it has � it moves the affair along so that it either dies a natural death or leads to a divorce much more quickly. And a fast resolution is what we recommend because of long-term health problems that people suffer while waiting for the unfaithful spouse to return. You may have already noticed some. In spite of the �cardinal rules,� of non-outing in your community, I would still recommend exposure.

But in the event that separation goes on for two year, with or without exposure, I generally recommend a divorce, since reconciliation is extremely unlikely after that. 20% of married couples permanently separate without getting a divorce. Occasionally the divorce itself gives the unfaithful spouse a new perspective, especially if that person felt trapped by the marriage. If reconciliation is requested at that point, it means that you must resolve issues that had to do with the marriage itself.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley"

Dr. Harley explained his principles to me assuming they would work on same sex couples. He admitted his experience has been primarily with opposite sex couples, but went on to explain his concepts. He did not attempt to "talk" me out of being gay (which is impossible to do) and respected the fact that my relationship has many of the same traits and qualities that opposite sex marriages have.

I do believe MB principles can apply in this instance. Have you read Freeloaders, Renters and Buyers? That is a very good book written by Dr. Harley.

That's so nice of you to post that Loyal. Examples of applying MB to same sex relationships are thin on the ground so it is nice of you to use this and think of this poster. I feel bad for her because I think her remorse is real.

I'm still apprehensive about her using a DIY tailoring of the plan. I genuinely have seen it blow up in people's faces when they have used advice meant for a different gender. Women who stay in Plan A, for example, like a man, get sick because they react to emotional stress differently.

If we gave her advice written for the care of wives, we'd be treating her like a man. If she used advice written for wives, she would be treating her partner like a man.

All I am saying is I wouldn't be confident cutting and pasting advice meant for hetero couples without knowing what I was doing but perhaps this poster can get clarification from Dr H.

You do make very valid points indie. Perhaps her best bet is emailing Dr. Harley directly. He is generally quick to respond and perhaps can give her sage advice.

Loyal, I just want to point out that Dr Harley affirmed what I said: that we don't have experience dealing with homosexual relationships and neither does anyone on this forum. Since men and women are so different, there is no reason to believe the concepts would work the same. Even Dr Harley doesn't tell people his concepts will work with un-married people.

Dr Harley does advise homosexuals to pursue heterosexual relationships, though. You can read his own words above. There are radio clips where this has been addressed too. It is very possible to make such changes and that has been his experience. If you want to deny that, it is your prerogative, but the purpose here is help others with his positions, rather than personal philosophies.

You are correct MelodyLane. The purpose of this forum is to help people apply the MB concepts to their relationships. Dr. Harley's experience is in helping people develop and maintain healthy relationships. That is why I and earthandwater came to this forum.

Dr. Harley himself said "assuming the same principles would work" he went on to offer his advice to me. You can't assume the principles would not work just because he doesn't work with same sex couples very much. They may work just as well, we just don't know (but it may be worth trying).

If you don't believe you have helpful advice to offer this poster based on Dr. Harley's concepts, it is fair to say that. I have found the advice I have been given to be very helpful. Suggesting she change her sexual orientation is a bit off topic and not very helpful to her situation.

I still believe she can benefit from the experience and advice from posters on this forum. It is a great resource.

You might not feel it is helpful, but from reading Dr. Harley's perspective, it is the solution to the problem. So I don't agree it is "off topic" at all, it represents his position. I posted his published position.

In your case, I can agree that Plan B was entirely applicable to your situation and made perfect sense. Outside of that, it is not fair to say that concepts that have been proven effective in heterosexual marriages are applicable to homosexual dating situations. I think it is not fair to represent that it is all things to all people.

I have emailed Dr Harley about this thread and am hoping he can weigh in here. Thanks.

**EDIT**

No one has blasted the homosexual lifestyle nor has anyone bullied her. MelodyLane correctly quoted Dr. Harley's advice from his book.

This thread has been very respectful and follows Dr. Harley's advice. It has been recommended that this posted email Dr. Harley. I hope she does.

If you think posters have been demeaning and callous, notify the moderators of the posts.

This thread will be locked until further instruction from Dr. Harley is received. Thank you.