Hello. I hope I'm in the right forum. I was on this site many years ago. I discovered my husband had been cheating for many years, saved my marriage with the help of this site, husband cheated again a few years later, and we divorced amicably. Fast forward 7 years and I have been in a wonderful relationship for the past 3 years. Boyfriend (BF) is very open and honest and communication has always been excellent.

Last week I discovered a few flirtatious texts between BF and a female friend of his who is going through a divorce when BF asked me to check his phone for something. He said they had been kidding around in response to another friend suggesting she had a crush on him, it meant nothing, she has a boyfriend, he was not intentionally flirting with her, etc. She doesn't have other friends who have been through divorce and so he seems to be the person to talk to about what she's going through. They have met for drinks twice in 6 weeks at her invitation. There weren't that many texts between them, mostly just figuring out which day they would meet.

He was very apologetic, swore he would never do that to me, especially knowing my history. I believe him, but can't stop thinking about it and feeling anxious when I know he might see her (they are neighbors, kids are friends, at same school and pool). I don't feel like I can ask him to keep his distance from her, but at the same time I'm just dreading every time they might be together.

Should I tell him how I feel and hope he stays away, ask him not to spend time alone with her and avoid personal conversations with her, suck it up, or what? I'm guessing he thinks that since we talked about it that day and the next day, it's over and done with. The worst part is that I feel like those texts and the kidding around over drinks one time planted a seed of doubt in my mind and gut. I am usually not insecure.

Thanks for listening and for any advice.

Go with your gut, Havana. You know what it is tell you don't you? Dating in MB terms is an interview. Did he pass the interview or did he fail?

If he cannot hack it now, he will never hack it in the real job.

Thank you living well. It's hard to trust your gut when you've been cheated on in the past, so you have a very low bar for what you're comfortable with.

I read an old thread on here about whether men and women can be just friends and that really helped me see where to set boundaries and how to explain them. Two that stood out are not meeting any important ENs, and no intimate conversations. That helps me understand my gut reaction, and feel more comfortable bringing this up with him again.

I saw a bunch of old posts in that thread about giving up friendships with OS when you're in a relationship, but didn't see anything about people actually having that conversation and making that request. I'm wondering how people react when their significant other asks them to do this. Fortunately in my case, this friendship is only about a year old I think--not anywhere close to his longer term, closest friends.

After three years of dating this man, are you close to marriage? Dr. Harley says many relationships start to head downhill if they haven't married after around two years. What is keeping you both from marrying at this point? Are you engaged?

Have you both agreed to an exclusive relationship?

At the wedding ceremony, the vows often include promises to forsake all others and to be completely exclusive in our marital relationship. At that time, it is completely appropriate to eliminate close friendships with the opposite sex, to eliminate flirting, and the like, in order to protect the marriage.

Have you read the book Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders? It's a really good book by Dr. Harley about relationships and how they work.

Besides being from this forum from several years ago regarding an affair, how well did you learn and process the entire MB philosophy?

Particularly, the POJA.

Have you introduced your BF to this site and Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts?

If so, was he receptive to it?

LTL

Thanks for the comments.

We have been in an exclusive relationship for most of the 3 years. We have discussed spending the rest of our lives together. He is committed to that in words and actions. We both have children in different school systems half an hour apart and neither of us wanted to move them, plus it's complicated with also wanting to keep our kids near their other parent. My kids are older than his and when my younger one goes to college in a few years, the plan is for us to get married (if we haven't already) and I'll move to his home. He has his kids full time. I have mine half time and so spend a lot of time at his house.

He doesn't see the point in getting married (for middle aged, divorced couples not planning to have kids together), and neither do his parents or mine. I can understand that point of view but marriage is important to me. He will say things like "when we get married..." or "at our wedding."

I do not think it is necessary to wait to marriage to eliminate questionable friendships, flirting, etc--I believe couples should protect their exclusive relationship and the person they love whether married or not.

I will look at the book; thanks.

I incorporated much of the MB philosophy into my life, and told BF about it on our third date. What has been most helpful to me is the ENs, and BF and I took the EN questionnaire together. He was receptive, and is receptive to talking about it and about relationships and anything that's on my mind. I haven't looked at POJA in a while and I will--but honestly most of the philosophy just came naturally for us and we've had very few issues/disagreements come up which we have always resolved easily.

BF has had at least as many close female friends as male friends all his life. Currently pretty much all his friends are couples that now are my friends too. One woman/friend/neighbor got divorced last year and they/we remain friends. This new woman is not a close friend, is a new friend (started talking last summer and I don't think talked much until this summer--it's a pool community). He has never flirted that I know of though he is a friendly, outgoing person to everyone--both sexes, all ages. I do not believe there was any flirting with her or anyone else before or after this 1-2 day conversation. The few objectionable texts ended with "I can't wait for you to meet Havana tomorrow." I am not making excuses for him nor am I saying what happened is OK. I am saying that I don't think there was any intent, I don't think it was an ongoing thing, I don't think there was more to it than I saw or what he explained--but huge red flags in terms of crossing the line and now needing to protect our relationship from the potential of anything more and from my being hurt or even just uncomfortable and anxious.

Please read. Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

You can always ask that questionable friendships be removed from your boyfriend's life, but since you aren't married, he's really not obligated. He isn't standing before witnesses and you declaring that he will "forsake all others and cleave only to you." But if he promises to eliminate his OS friendships and keeps that promise, that's a good sign.

Right now, it seems he's getting everything he'd like without being married. Since you say you spend a lot of time at his house, I'll presume you are having sex with him? If so, then he's getting his needs met and having friendships, both male and female. Why would he feel the need to marry when he is already very happy with his life? He doesn't seem to be concerned that he will lose you if he doesn't marry you.

There have been a few couples on this forum who, while they were engaged, practiced using the POJA on certain issues. They found it helpful to see if they were willing and able to negotiate respectfully with each other. As you know from MB, the POJA is the foundation of a Buyer relationship.

thanks. I just ordered it and will start reading this weekend.

also we are going to see a couples therapist.

fingers crossed

You might also consider getting Dr. Harley's advice. Send an email to mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. Include your phone number and your address. Joyce will read your email and maybe give you a call to see if you'd like to be on the program. They are both so very good at what they do.

Thank you thank you thank you for recommending Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders. I am a third of the way through the book (I ordered it on Kindle Friday just so I could start reading it immediately, and I've been highlighting as I go). I spent hours thinking about this relationship over the last 2 days and have such a better understanding of what the real problems are, although I still have a long way to go. Here's where I am now:
1. In many ways I am in a long distance relationship--we live 35 minutes apart without traffic, which is not long distance for casual dating but it is after several years when we usually go at least a week and often more without seeing one another, mostly because of where our kids are.
2. While I have a very balanced life in terms of adequate time to devote to relationship, parenting, work, friends, and downtime for myself, he is just the opposite. He has younger and more demanding kids full time, stressful and difficult job situation with related financial problems, other time consuming and mentally demanding commitments, and not enough downtime... he has an overflowing plate and feels pulled in all directions. He doesn't believe that our relationship should be effortless (the freeloader), but he really wants it to be because any required effort takes time he doesn't feel he has and puts more pressure on him. He (and his son) also have ADD which I'm guessing makes this even more overwhelming for him.
3. Since early in our relationship, he has said that something is missing, and he doesn't feel that spark the way he wants to. He wants to feel it, he doesn't know why he doesn't, he does love me very much and wants to spend the rest of our lives together, and he believes or at least hopes that it will get better with time. (I am not saying I agree with this)
So... these 3 things have led to a "classic" (according to Harley's book) giver taker relationship where I have been the giver, trying to accommodate his life/routine/availability, and he has been the taker because in the past he was the giver and is just burnt out, and because of the other stuff I wrote above.
We have a very strong foundation, have all the qualities the other is looking for, love each other deeply, etc. So I think we can make the relationship work, but only if he is willing to put the effort in.
He was the one who suggesting counseling. We have our first appointment for tomorrow and he says he is looking forward to it. In the meantime I will continue ready Dr. Harley's book.

Do you feel that he would appreciate getting a copy of B, R & F for himself to read?

He sounds torn by the lack of those romantic butterfly type feelings.

This may be a great opportunity to POJA a time restructuring to begin to get 15 hours of UA together.

But, with that said, since you stated that sometimes you spill into a two week gap before getting together, are you sincerely interested in wanting to upgrade your time together too?

The reason i ask, is for you to see if this BF is truly one worth putting in the additional time investment into in the first place.

Have you stated a definite boundary to him regarding his OS friendships?

LTL

Thanks for responding, several times over.

Unfortunately BF hates to read books. I gave him a copy of The Five Love Languages early on and he never even opened it. Have never seen him read a book since I've known him.

Yes I agree. One of my counseling goals is for us both to understand exactly what he means when he says "something is missing." I think romantic butterfly feelings are temporary and a result of hormones in the first 6 months or so of a relationship.

15 hours will be a huge challenge. But yes, this is a major goal of mine--he needs to take a fresh look at what is taking up all of his time and mental energy and restructure everything. If he is willing to do this, then I am interested. If not, then no. I feel that if he is willing to make the effort, which would be a big change for him, then he/we are worth at least trying.

In B, R & F it says that renters make all these sacrifices and then get tired of it and start making demands. I think that's where I am right now--somewhere between renter and buyer. I am willing to make an investment but only if he shows me that he is as well.

These issues that are at the heart of our relationship unexpectedly came up before I had a chance to discuss the OS friendship. I know what my boundary is now, but need to focus on the bigger issues first to see if we are even going to move forward.

Re POJA, it's almost impossible for me to imagine a relationship in which no one makes sacrifices. If pulling our kids out of their schools and taking them away from their other parent is off the table, something has to give. Hopefully this will be illustrated later in the book.

BF called and we talked through some of this.

He confirmed that the spark/chemistry that is missing is not the temporary excitement of a new relationship which would be unrealistic, and that it leaves him unmotivated to invest more in the relationship even though he feels terrible about it. He said everything else is so great and that's why he still wants to be with me now and forever.

He said that in the past he was always the giver and went into our relationship not wanting to make concessions/sacrifices because that would eventually make him unhappy. I explained the concept in B, R & F... that I made the mistake of making lots of sacrifices and now we need to focus on finding solutions and making decisions that are best for both of us and don't require either of us to sacrifice. He agreed.

I suggested that he try doing small things to make me happy/meet my needs (like a romantic gesture)even if he wasn't motivated to because often feelings follow behavior and you have to love (as a verb) in order to feel love. He didn't think that would work and I suggested he try anyway, and that his approach of doing nothing and hoping time would take care of it wasn't working. But, that is for the counselor to help us with and perhaps as I get further in the book I'll learn more. In the context of POJA, we'll need to find ways for him to better meet my needs that he also wants to do/agrees with.

So POJA question: if one of my top 2 needs is affection and he doesn't like to be affectionate--how do I get my need met? Normally I would say we compromise--if I would like a lot of affection and he prefers to give very little, then we should meet somewhere in the middle. But that seems like both of would be making a sacrifice and going against POJA.

I just don't think it is worth pursuing the relationship.

He isn't that into you anymore and you can find someone who is (if you date and meet a few guys).

I agree with reading, it's not worth pursuing.

You'll be better off with someone who enjoys meeting your needs.

Like you, I was in a dating relationship in which we tried counseling to resolve some issues. Someone on this forum pointed out something to the effect that if I needed counseling while dating, things would only get more difficult if we got married. It was hard to accept that at the time because we had invested a lot of time in our relationship, and I wanted it to work out. But in hindsight, that advice was correct, and I'm glad the relationship did not lead to marriage.

Keep reading BRF, however, it's a great resource!

Also, as LongWayFromHome suggests, try emailing mbradio@marriagebuilders.com for advice. I did as well, and Dr. Harley answered me on his daily program. I had lost feelings for my girlfriend and wanted to know if Marriage Builders principles could be used to restore love in a dating relationship. Dr. Harley discouraged me from continuing the relationship.

BrainHurts gave me the following link for the radio broadcast if you're interested: Radio clip on a man losing the feeling while dating at 8:20 mark Segment #2

At the end of the clip, after Dr. Harley had voiced his pessimism about continuing the relationship, he hedged a little by saying that he had advised many men in this situation to break up, they did but then realized they really loved their girlfriend, and the relationship worked out.

Yours is a difficult situation to be in, and I applaud your effort to make sense of it. Posting on this website, reading the replies, responding, etc, will help your thought process, and you'll eventually figure out the right solution for you.

BTW, how did the counseling session go?

This relationship is out of balance. There is too much of an element of convenience on BF side. Why no spark for BF? You are the pursuer. You are both settling for this because of his kids, job...and later if these excuses disappeared there would be something else.

YOU don't have to settle. He wants this situation to stay as is. Sure he would like "the spark" but he does not want to be responsible to create "the spark." It should happen naturally. What does this sound like from reading B,R,F?

Now he wants you both to see a couples therapist to learn the birds and bees? Where's the spark!? I think I know what will happen. (Remember he does not like to read?) Therapist will be forced to pander to him to motivate 'em outside the therapist office. She/he will get paid and you will get no where but more confused by a few crumbs.

I can see your point about needing counseling while dating is a pretty big red flag. If it were early in the relationship, I'd definitely agree. But after 3 years, talking about and planning a future, having a step parent relationship with his kids, and being very emotionally invested, I thought and do think that trying counseling is worth a shot. Plus I spent 5 years very actively dating after my divorce and I know that it is very rare to find someone with BF's qualities and compatibility with me. I would not do counseling long term--I'm confident that I'll know fairly quickly whether this is fixable or not. Just making the appointment "forced" us to talk before and after in a way we haven't before. We talked about our goals for counseling, thought about and discussed what the issues and problems are with much more clarity and focus, and BF has really stepped it up each of the last 3 days and is thinking ahead to the time we'll be spending together tomorrow through the weekend.

The session went well. There's only so much you can accomplish in the first session with a new counselor, but the counselor seems to know his stuff (too many do not). At this time I think it is unlikely that the relationship will last, but I have a much better understanding of what's going on. For example, I thought that because BF was always a giver in the past, that at first his not being a giver with me was just him being burnt out and temporary. I started to resent him when nothing was changing. Now--between the session and the book, I see that he realized that making sacrifices doesn't work. And now I see it for myself and for him. He's a freeloader, I've been a renter transitioning to a buyer--but had been wanting him to be a renter rather than a freeloader because I didn't know any better. Now I see we both need to be buyers. The counselor also saw that BF can't be a taker either--he feels too guilty. So my giving has been pushing him away.

If the relationship ends, I am certain that I will be able to handle it better if we've made this last effort and understood better what the problems were. When I discovered my ex-husband was cheating, I read on here that you don't sell a broken down car, you fix it and then sell it. Or something like that. I fixed my marriage with counseling, marriage builders, and some great resources I found on here. when the marriage later failed (he cheated 4 years later), I was completely at peace with it--I knew we had tried and done what we could, I understood why people cheat, etc.

At our session, BF explained that the reason he doesn't feel this spark, or only partially feels it, is that he has always been attracted to one type of woman. I am different in every way (not just physically). Almost all of those ways are for the better, which is why he has continued in the relationship. But because one thing is missing, he is afraid to invest more in the relationship than he already has--he is stuck as a freeloader.

Thanks so much for the link--I will check it out.

Perhaps you are right graceful2b. Certainly it is out of balance, and way too convenient. I was the pursuer from the beginning and that was a mistake. the spark as I mentioned in my previous post has to do with me not being his type and him not knowing how to handle that. I'll give counseling a shot for a little while to see if the counselor can make some progress--this is the primary issue on the table. If I'm not confident that will happen, I can end the relationship in a month or 2 rather than today, and feel more confident in that decision.

Yes we are both settling but for other reasons. I'm getting a lot more clarity on that and will see if that too can be fixed. He does not want the situation to stay as is--he just feels paralyzed. Just one counseling session gave me a glimpse into why--so I'll go a few more times and see what happens.

Based on the last 3 days, I am not more confused at all. Just the opposite. The goal is not to motivate BF but to help us both understand why he's not motivated and see if there's a solution. I don't have much tolerance for going no where, but I'm willing to pay in the short term even if only for my own peace of mind. Even if I ended the relationship tomorrow, I would be in such a better place mentally and emotionally than if I had ended it last week. Even if counseling doesn't help BF at all, if it helps me then it's worth it. And whatever I'm learning from this experience and this relationship will help me in my next relationship if that's where I end up.

thanks everyone for the comments. I am taking it all in. I am almost finished with B, R & F. I have to say I was disappointed with the chapter on how to do POJA. The one example they gave of a couple applying it was too easy/obvious a win-win solution.

If you really want to read an thorough explanation of POJA, then the book to go to is "He Wins, She Wins".