It is very disrespectful to try to invalidate your wife's emotional responses to things.

It is much easier to control behavior, i.e. your choice of activities, than it is to control reactions, i.e. your wife's response to your choices. You can easily stop making these choices, whereas your wife can not easily suppress her reaction. Can you see the difference? What is the point of being married if you don't care enough for your wife to want to avoid hurting her like that?

Hi Prookatz,
I used to think I should put up with my husbands offensive habits and independent behaviours and so did he. I witnessed these types of relationships while I grew up like many here. Certainly I'd have complaints to my husband but he did not feel responsible for my feelings and he too believed he could be judge and jury as to whether my complaints were valid.

I can tell you this structure leads to parallel lives and loss of love between you. If you are already telling yourself and maybe your wife and others your wife's perspective is wrong or she is a nut case, she offends you and so on...you are on a slide.

Its treacherous to define another person and their perspective for them. Your wife does not have to share your reality regarding alcohol. She is of her own mind. And you do not have to share her reality regarding alcohol. Obviously you both grew up with differing world views and traditions regarding alcohol consumption. In negotiations you will get no where fast if you play the win-lose game or attempt to cram one another perspective down the others throat to your or your wife's or your own extreme frustration.

I got into a similar log jam w/my husband over a recreational activity he loved and had become so darn offensive for me to a point of aversion and lost love/near divorce!

What happens is you will want her to explain over and over and over why she does not want you to drink. You in turn will counter her every thought and feeling with a stealth argument of your own. On and on. You say "I'm going to win this at all cost." In other words, my wife's thought and feelings are (whatever degrading and dismissive thing you want). "I'm right" you assert to yourself.

You can follow this track if you like. It will be, as they say, "winning the battle, but losing the war." Its a hate filled track and will lead to hate or at least a serious loss of love. Love glues the whole relationship together, right? The win-lose thing will dissolve that glue or your love for one another.

So how do you resolve this varying perspectives and find a win-win? You "see" your wife's perspective as uniquely part of her and of high value. She is telling you something important about herself. It does not matter if there are few that feel as she does. This is your wife--all of her and part of her. Mislabeling her in an unflattering way to get around her and selfishly do what you want isn't about POJA, its a selfish demand and disrespectful judgment.

To get past this, you do not have get into an argument over who is right or who's perspective we go along with or straightening out your so-called crazy wife.

You are intent on keeping your love bank in the romantic threshold. You don't compromise because you are going to brainstorm choices you both will be enthusiastic towards.

Yes, you find other drinks and other activities that are respectful of your wife.

This is the process it take to build a compatible relationship. The win-lose thing is how you lose compatibility.

Ironically accepting independent behavior as a means of maintaining your sense of self does the opposite. Each spouse losses bits and pieces of themselves along the way when they put up w/annoying habits and IB. When you are interdependent no one losses their sense of self in the relationship. You connect with one another's entire being, not just their thoughts about a drink or activity.

Great post, graceful. I hope he comes back and reads it.

You have to wonder how they got together in the first place with such different views on something so important. Did he hide the issue from her?

I can appreciate the source of Prookatz wife's anxiety issues.

If he is involved in an activity or drinking etc she has no idea how far he will take it. Intuitively a red flag is raised for her if he becomes engaged in the activity or situation. Since he does not consider her feelings, she feels unsafe most of the time. I'm sure this is not how it was when they started out. She'd been forced to accommodate because HE decides if her feelings are valid and to be respected. Rinse repeat rinse repeat--- you have a spouse with a lot of anxiety and depression.

MB principles is a means to mature a relationship. WE move past the stuff we cling to since childhood and find the magic between us!

Thanks living well. I'm glad someone liked it!!!

Graceful2b, I was honestly enlightened by your post and surprised by how accurately yo described our dynamic. I do tend to say to myself: "Self, you are not responsible for her response. If she freaks out when you drink, it's because she has anxiety problems." The truth is, she does have an anxiety problem, and so I always thought that if I made sure that I never did anything that made her anxious, then that would be enabling her to never work through her anxiety. I am reconsidering that approach now, as it has obviously not been working for me!

Where I am hung up on now is the win-lose vs win win idea. I dont see how it works in this scenario. There doesnt seem to be a win win. I say, "I would like to decide how often and how much i drink," she says "no I am not ok with that." I say, "ok, how about I only have two drinks at a time, no more than once a week." She says, "no." I say, "ok, how about I only have one drink at a time and very rarely?" and she says, "no I am not ok with that." And then I finally say, "ok, how bout diet coke." she says, "well its not very good for you but I can live with that." That doesnt sound like negotiation to me, it does not sound like win win to me. It sounds like she gets her way and I do not. If that is how it is supposed to work, ok, but dont call that win win. It seems to me like it amounts to me doing whatever my wife wants me to do so that momma will be happy, and then i can be happy because momma is happy. So in reality POJA is a different way of saying "if momma aint happy then nobody's happy." this is what is frustrating and confusing to me about how this is supposed to work. Another example, I say I want a big dog, she says no I dont like dogs. I say ok how bout a medium sized dog, she says nope they are too hairy. I say ok a small dog then, she says, maybe one day. and then someone suggests "well maybe you could visit a doggy shelter every now and then to get your dog fix." Yeah like I am going to be enthusiastic about that crap.
I read this post: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5041b_qa.html
and I am still having a hard time seeing how this works. I am really trying to work through this, I know I sound like a selfish #$@ but trying to be honest.

What POJA is saying is that you should never do anything without your spouses enthusiastic agreement. If she doesn't like you drinking alcohol, then find a beverage that you both can agree on. Expand your horizons! Think outside of the box. Do you like mango peach tea, for example? How would she feel about that?

Are you drinking tonight?

And I think you have the "enthusiastic" part of this backwards. Your enthusiasm is not needed to not do something. It is needed to DO something. You should not do anything she is not enthusiastic about whether or not you are enthusiastic about not doing it. The default position is to do nothing until a decision is reached.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5041d_qa.html
This is another letter that applies to what I am talking about. I just cant get my head around it. I am just going think out loud now so if i sound incoherent oh well. the doc seems to be saying eliminate the annoying behavior (get rid of dog, get rid of booze), and then find suitable replacement, a replacement we will both be enthusiastic about. Anyone have any experience with this whole finding suitable replacements thing?
Like you wanted a dog, and didnt like cats, but then after you got the cat decided you liked cats? When I read about finding substitutes in these situations, it always sounds to me like one spouse (often the wife) always seems to have problems with their husbands activities, and so the husband either digs in his heels, or he gives in and pretends to be happy with the replacement when really he is not. Ok enough of my scoffing, any success stories on this replacement negotiation thing?

that is absolutely hilarious, my thoughts are so wacky that people think I am drinking when I am sober! My wife will get a kick out of that one. Nope not drinking tonight, sorry if I sound like it.

Negotiations don't happen overnight. It is okay if it take months of brain storming. <<<<<<EDIT>>>>>

Dr. H explained on his radio show going back to the default this way. Their was a man that refused to clean and his wife called to get help with following POJA. Dr. H said until you guys can come up with a plan you needed to move back to the default. He said if she married a slob and he has always hated cleaning but started to and has now said he doesn't want to clean any more the default is him not cleaning <<<<EDIT>>>> They are to stay in this state until they had a POJA about him cleaning.

<<<<EDIT>>>>

No, the default position is that you do nothing until there is enthusiastic agreement.
As Melody pointed out earlier, the default position would be no drinking at all without enthusiastic agreement.

<<<EDIT>>>> He also gives a good story in "He wins, She wins" about a pregnant woman in her 7th month that couldn't get her husband to take out the garbage. Most people would agree his actions were selfish and annoying but Dr. H advised her to find something her husband wanted, in exchange for taking out the garbage, even though she fought him on that advice when she did it they were able to have a POJA on that subject.

<<<EDIT>>>>

The default position is to do nothing. NOT necessarily the position before negotiation. In this case, he should not drink alcohol unless he has her enthusiastic agreement.

"Alcoholism is different depending on your addiction to it but you can not apply POJA alone. If you truly don't have a problem with drinking then POJA would apply and she would have to come up with something that would make you enthusiastic about stopping. Maybe allowing you to get a small dog for example."

The POJA applies to everything. He should not drink and he should not get any dog unless she is enthusiastic about both. It doesn't matter if he is enthusiastic about quitting because he shouldn't have started in the first place.

Get down to the nuts and bolts of what it is you actually 'get' out of having an alcoholic drink. That should help you identify a replacement. Melody Lane gave you a very good example of a refreshing drink, but you didn't sound too impressed so maybe it is not refreshment you're after.

So, what is it that you would lose? Think about what it gives you. Social confidence? A feeling of being relaxed after work? Social bonding - being around other people sharing an experience? That warm fuzzy feeling? Do you just simply find it 'nicer' taste wise than non-alcoholic drinks?

Or, you could explore alcohol levels if your wife thinks that is a good idea. There are lots of very low alcohol drinks; the kinds of stuff that would have made it past prohibition laws. Once you identify what it is you would miss about your usual alcoholic drinks, you can start thinking about other ways to get that. For example, there are lots of ways to relax without drinking.





Oh no, it is very important that you are happy too. Do persevere to come up with a replacement. It is just that pragmatically you're not likely to be very happy with an unhappy wife. It's not just the same as 'when mama ain't happy' because you are not expected to endure what you dislike 'for her'. You only have to go without stuff she dislikes - because she won't be able to help being unhappy and passing that on to you.

She's just letting you know that before you go out and get a dog - she's informing you that it won't make you as happy as you think. That's because however cute the dog is, you're going to have a long faced wife and that's no fun for you either.

Saying she 'wins' because she can't help having certain dislikes and preferences is kinda true, I admit. PoJA does protect her so she wins in a sense. But it's a reality you can't work around, and you have 'won' too because you have avoided an unrealistic and unhappy situation. It's just the same as if you or she had an allergy to dogs. You'd be free to have your dog, but it would come with a side order of misery.

Dr Harley calls complaints an 'overdraft statement'. What he is saying is that while they are no fun, it's better that the bank tells you there's a problem before the problem gets worse. It doesn't mean the bank 'wins' because they can't help it if the money to give you the total freedom to do what you want isn't there.

Prook, it sounds like you're not in love with your wife, so you don't want to protect her. My ex and I had the same issue about drinking, and because I felt so uncared for and insecure, other stuff like the movies you mentioned started to get me down too. I tried giving in on the dog thing, the worst mistake ever, and the dog paid the price He claimed to want a dog so badly, but I was the only one taking care of her, even though I didn't want her. She developed a biting problem and I turned her into the pound when he was out of town. I hope she found a home where she was wanted. You don't sound like you want to take care of a dog either, just want some more resentment to fuel justifying choices you don't want to tell your W about. I hope I am wrong.

Did you read this in the link you posted? What do you think about making a concerted effort to alleviate your wife's concerns for a set period of time and see what happens? Plan some fun UA you both would have a blast with, so it's sustainable, and to start chipping away at that block of resentment. What do you two enjoy doing together?

**EDIT**

moderator's note: please familiarize yourself with Marriage Builders concepts before posting to others.

No you've misunderstood. The 'doing nothing' default of PoJA also applies to things you have always done. If you have always had a FB page, you should get rid of it if your spouse objects. Every time you log on after they have complained is a un-PoJA'd decision. Equally, he cannot go out and buy any more alcoholic drinks or consume any more becuase that is DOING something and it is not PoJA'd. If you have always been friends with x - you cannot continue to do things with them if your spouse starts to become uncomfortable about the friendship.

If you have a gym membership, each and every gym trip still needs to be PoJA'd.

As you've pointed out, PoJA applies even in the middle of a car journey. You have to stop the offending action.

The only type of situation where 'doing nothing' maintains the status quo is something like moving house. Obviously if your spouse complains that they have become miserable in the neighbourhood you cannot just stop living there overnight.

Most things we do require future actions like logging on, or buying more alcohol. Actions which are inconsiderate if you know they bother your spouse.

Also, even past actions that you cannot undo will still withdraw lovebank units. One time Dr H got rid of some of Joyce's things without checking with her, so he persevered to get them back for her.

Life, you're confusing stopping doing something with doing something. Under your logic, if I went out to strip clubs every Saturday, and had been doing that for our entire marriage, then I would be entitled to keep doing that even if my wife decides that it is something that bothers her.

That's not how the POJA is supposed to work. In that case, even if my wife had been in enthusiastic agreement with my going to strip clubs on Saturdays for years, she is within her rights to no longer be enthusiastic. At that point, the strip club trips would stop, and we would renegotiate.