Are there examples of "plan A" letters on this site? I've check around. Just to get me started.

How will he know if you don't tell him?


I get the impression here that you are sitting there brewing, building up anger in your own mind, yet being silent on the issue. He has no idea this is going on in your head.


Because you are lecturing him. It's a LB.


It seems to me that you had an idea about the way you wanted the evening to go, and since it didn't go that way, you are getting upset because he is not doing what you think he should.

Not trying to be harsh, but it seems that you have this running dialog with yourself in your head that your H is not privy to.

Were these two things back to back the way you posted them? Do you tend to lecture him when he is not doing what you expect?

You should definitely complain, but I wonder if you are doing it in a way that comes across to him as a lecture?

FTF,
Thanks for your feedback. I believe I am forthcoming with my husband. I've learned to state the complaint or concern and not overstate it. In the past he took me to lecture him because of the way the convo evolved.

He is a doctor and is used to listening to patient complaints asking questions and rendering an impression or diagnosis. So his questioning and myself answering him by explaining my understanding was lecturing to him.

Last night I told him I'd like to create some UA time. As this has gotten rusty I figure this will be minimal. All I wanted was to feel some hope. You know, reciprocal interest.

I do not tend to lecture him when he does not do what I expect. I registered a complaint. Ann increasingly rare thing given I get accused of lecturing for complaining.

Here is an example where I think you could take a more direct approach.


Right here, approach him and say something like:

"How would you feel about working on that a little later? I'd love it if we could chat a little bit while I am cooking dinner and then have a nice meal together. It would make some serious love bank deposits."

There is a good chance that he might have dropped the thing right there and you would have gotten what you needed out of the evening. Then after dinner, you could thank him for spending that time with you and let him know you appreciate the effort. That would give him that little admiration hit that he likes so much as a reward for meeting your needs.

Thanks FTF. I do admit I am hard pressed to 'catch' him before he enters the point of no return. Its a conditioning. For example, at work I would not interrupt his focus w/a patient. In his work environment his focus is appropriate. His beginning to 'get involved' in something is insidious.

In the case of this hat thing, he'd engaged me to help him. He asked for a seam ripper and I pulled it out. (I am recruited to be his assistant) He showed me his old hat and we discussed the condition of the hat. We started talking about and choosing a method to construct a new hat like old hat he wanted to rip up to use as a pattern. I made suggestions and so on. It became something I was involved in which in the beginning seemed fun. At the same time I had dinner going. He'd even gotten a little involved with prep work. so again in the beginning it seemed interactive.

But then suddenly he was just gone. checked out and concentrating on the hat. I spoke to him and had to repeat myself. "check this out" --I showed him a couple hat patterns. No looking up. And so it went... its hard not to lose heart easily after this long. In fact, I do sometimes check out early to protect myself.

I will attempt the approach where I say how about putting ABC away and lets XYZ, it would boost the LB balance! But really I have to catch him setting me up to assist him.

How do you feel about doing that? Enthusiastic, or reluctant?

An example of myself becoming his assistant to our detriment would be going along with this notion of him entering a karate tournament. (Don't worry not doing so)

He talks like it would be a one day deal and I would have the fun of watching him all day. Be his helper and so on. That sounds sort of nice way to support him. Maybe he'd 'see' me if I did those things. We might travel somewhere and get away and I would cheer him on. But if he were to sign up, he'd spend nearly all free time prepping. If he weren't prepping he'd be on the internet watching videos about it. Or he'd begin to talk me into his working out at a dojo just this once. On and on. After tourney and putting up w/negligence, would that turn him on to me since I have been so supportive? A resounding "No."

I would enjoy attempting a proto type. Enthusiastic and not reluctant at this point.

This all sounds pretty good except for the comment about being "recruited to be his assistant".


I'd suggest you not just check out like that though. At the point you stop enjoying it (which it sounds like you were up to this moment) you have to speak up.

This is basically a POJA situation where you are no longer enthusiastic about the agreement. Time to renegotiate!


I'm a little uncomfortable with this idea that he is "setting you up". It sounds to me like in this particular case, you were in agreement with the activity and going along fine until a certain point.

My husband enjoys being in relationship to me. Its OK with him for me to simply be in the room while he does his separate thing. In fact there is a tendency from his way to be as though we are not separate at all, hence the assistant thing. He focuses himself on a particular interest, project or task rather than on the relationships around him. So while I'm there I'm not really there. I did not make him that way. And its not my efforts or lack of efforts that have tripped us up. For most of us our relationships are our life-blood, but again this is not my husband primary orientation. This is the chasm between our two worlds. Neither of us are in a set up. Its like two people coming from separate cultures going along under the assumption the other is with them in their world. Its hard to interpret the shifts. Its insidious.

Hi graceful2b, would your husband we willing to try an exercise for a bit where each of you speak your private thoughts out loud while you are together? Almost like talking to yourself during the day while you are working alone (I sure do that�I talk to the dogs lol).

Talk about total transparency! It does eat up a bit of UA time because it causes us to have LOTS to talk about, but the IC has been great.

We have been doing this little exercise for almost a month now, and OH what we have learned about each other! For instance if we were attempting to construct something, I am the type to just dive in, and H is the type to plan the entire thing out in his head first, and then check to be sure all supplies are available, and THEN check to be sure that all tools are operational, and then finally begin.

I've learned this past month that MUCH of the time when I thought that he was tuning me out as we were "working together" on a project�really what may have been going on is that he was sacrificing and doing things "my way", because I would just dive in and this caused him stress (mentally�because he's a planner).

I felt sad to realize this because I always used to DJ him (in my head if not out loud) about this total focus (and not on ME) thing that I felt.

WOW was this huge for us. Like Dr. H and Joyce point out, it's a different perspective. He sees the ocean and I see the mountains. With this info, we can now bring the BEST from both of us to the table!

Our situation is still a work in progress, but I have noticed H complaining a bit more (and I totally drop everything and thank him for doing so), and I have noticed myself being much more sensitive to our different perspectives.

Graceful-
I have read all of your private forum posts, and truly "Get" the history of challenges. I know how difficult it must be to feel like you are begging your husband to spend time with you.

I can also see the dynamic of hurt and rejection, caused by repeated attempts to connect and follow the program. It's hard to keep interacting, after being rejected or ignored repeatedly, (often for years) and to not assume that the same will happen. Then when the rejection does happen, to just move on without emotionally reacting. Because you feel like it's Ground Hog Day!

The following things, I write as a reminder to myself, and to you:

In order to follow the MB program, we have to interrupt the in-place processes and create new habits. That is why ML and Prisca and Marcos and FtF are all right.

I know how difficult that can be, when your husband is the "out of sight, out of mind" type. We feel invisible, unless we are jumping up and down and waving our hands and maybe even screaming. But that doesn't work. It is really difficult to accept that after everything we have invested in our spouses and our marriages, that maybe it hasn't and will never work. That they still don't crave what we crave. They don't feel the hurt and loss until you are gone. And maybe they don't feel the joy when you are there. I'm not saying that this is the case for you, or for me. I'm just saying that sometimes we have to accept that in order to move forward.

If the negative patterns of relating don't change, then there are just more emotional reactions to eliminate. It is a viscous cycle. We need to disengage and create anew. That is a very tough thing to do when your partner doesn't have the same picture of success as you do. But you can disengage, and then see about starting anew.

You are lucky to have these posters on your side. I really respect Marcos for accepting Prisca's perspective without needing an explanation. Our explanations just muddy the waters. What happens with me is that I have repeated faith in my partner's goodwill, and I assume he is asking the "Why" so that he can understand my perspective, enabling a win-win solution. But when what I say is not accepted, I realize that his goal was for me to justify a differing opinion or need, which he deems as incorrect. It is really tough to stop giving the extra information, and to just say,"I am not enthusiastic." So, IMO, this refers back to the post from FTF who reminds you to give simple, and clear communication at the point that you are not comfortable.

We are making progress in this category, but without mutually ejoyable UA time, there is a deficit of LB deposits and an absence of romantic love sunlight to shine over the challenges.

Now I know that I am preaching to the choir, because of course you want mutually enjoyable UA time. And I can't solve your problems, but I can definitely give you a hug of understanding. I know how difficult it can be to accomplish the goal of mutually ejoyable UA time.

Have you ever thought of: (I know there are huge obstacles.)


1. Send him an invite to plan your UA time at 3pm on Sunday. At some point, kindly let him know that until your 4hr UA dates are planned, you won't be doing anything else because your marriage comes first.

2. Quit managing the office. (Yes, I have read the private forum and understand the repercussions.)

3. Go out to dinner on your first planned UA date, and take the RLI. Use that time to fill it out.

4. I understand the dojo issues. What about doing a martial arts video together at home? Maybe you can put up an award at the office with his name on it for admiration. I also understand how difficult it is when either of you have narrowly focused interests and not much motivation to try new things. It takes time.

5. MB Coaching. (Weekly Accountability) We just signed up again for accountability. I don't want to be the reminder to put MB front and center anymore. It feels better to have someone else in charge. I have accepted that without this accountability (for several years) it will be tough to stay on the road to compatibility. We BOTH need the motivation.

I appreciate you all 'get' my situation from various angles and perspectives.

BlindS, I'll see if he'll speak what he's thinking and see what happens.

DQ, I've sketched out my plan to change the bar as Prisca speaks of.

1. He does not read my emails.

2. I may quit if I'm moving out.
3. I'm on board w/going out more for UA time and planning too.
4. We've created our own so called dojo at home. We do work out together sometimes. I'm reluctant about karate right now. Partly because I have an injury that is agrivated. I'd quit karate after the sensei (teacher ) at dojo punched me and broke my sternum. The worst part was my husband tried to make nice with sensei after-- so she would not feel bad and they could continue as usual. They acted to me like nothing happened.
5. I too recognize I can't be my husbands coach. I'm going to request he gets coaching.

This is what I sense as well. I wonder if either of you approach this with the idea of truly appreciating each others perspectives?


The coaching is a good idea, and you are right, in the sense that you cannot be in the position of educating him. (Lecturing) But I think he is a smart man. Surely he understands the material itself on an intellectual level.

I'm just suggesting that you train him on the job. You can't expect him to read the material, form a list of things you like, and suddenly start reading your mind about everything. You must complain, respectfully, on the spot when something is bothering you. Address it right then before it snowballs into something bigger. Point out those habits that bother you when they happen and don't forget to reward him when he does the right thing.

Now I know that doesn't solve all of your problems, but I hope it helps with situations like you described today.

I hope you will continue to relay your day to day experiences at least for awhile. I think you'll find it helpful.

Did you do this? I see a whole lot of long, long posts today and wondered if you wrote and gave him the letter? I hope we are not talking the problem to death.

I did speak up to him last night when we returned from walking and he started to seam rip the hat again. I said I'd hoped we'd continue our UA time. It bothered me he was too himself and we did not have conversation. When he'd asked about karate tournaments I said I'd like to work on our UA time before we started individual activities apart from one another.

This afternoon I asked what he'd like to do this evening. At first hE did not specifically answer the question. He said its hard for him to do things during the work week. Then he did make a couple suggestions. I added a coupe ideas. I checked with him before I left work and he was going to leave soon.

How is your plan A letter coming along? Did you give him the letter with a blank UA schedule?

I thought we had a plan to give him a Plan A letter? Did something change?

Hand him the letter and ask to set down and plan out your 20 hours of UA time ON THE SCHEDULE. [include this step in your letter] Flying by the seat of your pants on UA time and going day by day is a waste of time. Sit down and schedule the whole week.

Don't put yourself in the position to be beggaring for a few minutes every day. THAT is not a plan.

Does your husband still work 75 - 80 hours a week? Dr Harley suggested to you that work and sleep hours were subject to the POJA. What's the status on that negotiation?