DH & I have been married for 10 years and have 4 children (8, 5, 3, and 1.5). We do not communicate well. We never have, although it has gotten much worse since we married. Even when we have a two hour discussion about something and completely lay our sides out, his way of thinking does not make sense to me and my way of thinking does not make sense to him. He is so definite about his way of thinking that I often end up feeling like my way of thinking is wrong, or at least I can't ever explain it to him in a way that satisfies him as to its validity.

I have read all the basic stuff on the Marriage Builders site. I really think it would help us, but he is completely unwilling to do any marriage counseling, read any books, do questionaires, etc. He always has been (I started pushing for marriage counseling about 4 years in to the marriage) although he did agree about 3 years ago to do marriage counseling with our preacher--that lasted for four sessions before the preacher got too busy. He does sometimes work on things that I bring up...he says he works on them a lot and I don't see them so I'm not sure if I just don't recognize them or what.

I have read a few threads here and I do know things that I need to work on...but I am not sure how much of a difference it will really make if I am the only one trying to follow the plan. I know for certain that he will never go for the policy of joint agreement. One it would actually be impossible because we disagree on everything so it wouldn't be possible to even make decisions, and two in his view the husband gets the final say and if we don't agree then he'll make the decision.

Also 15 hours of UA a week is literally impossible. Truly I don't see how people with small children manage it unless they're willing to spend a small fortune on babysitters or stay up til midnight. With an income of around 25,000 a year, there is no money for babysitters. The last child goes to bed between 8 & 8:30. I need to go to bed around 9 due to health issues and insomnia (often am awake for the day by 4 am)...usually I do not make it by 9 but try for 9:30 at least. He often works weekends or he's working around the house trying to fix some thinks so we can put the house on the market.

I've been trying to work on love busters. I know feeling respected is a big thing for him, as is honesty. I have a really hard time being honest, or maybe open is a better word, with him. I'm naturally pretty reserved. He's naturally aggressive and outspoken and very critical. I do sometimes hide things because of his reactions, which really upsets him (but he won't admit that the reactions are a problem). I have a hard time not making independent decisions also. How do you not do that when you and your spouse don't agree on anything?? I resolve to work on the love busters and things improve for a time, a week or ten days, and then I start getting worn down because he's still doing his love busters, especially the disrespectful judgments and the bad habits, and I start being less careful what I say and how I say it so he feels disrespected and things just spiral downhill and end with (usually) me hiding something and then him giving me the silent treatment for a week.

OK this is quite a novel...is there any hope for us?

And I should say that UA time is not terribly important to me. I know it's supposed to be to women...but it's just not too me. It's more important to him than it is to me.

Hi Nym, welcome to Marriage Builders. The things you say "are impossible" are the things that have led your marriage to this terrible place. For example, in marriages where they don't devote 15 hours a week of UA time, they cannot maintain the love in the marriage. Marriages that won't use the policy of joint agreement usually don't last because it causes such extreme incompatibility.

So I see the basic problem here as your refusal to do the program. There is nothing we can do for you if you won't follow the POJA and the policy of UA. This program does not work piecemeal. If you want to take little pieces, you will end up with what you have now: a bad marriage.

When you say that UA time is not important to you, all you are saying is that you have fallen out of love and would rather do a million other things than spend time with him. To me, that sounds like "having a great, enjoyable time is just not terribly important to me. I would rather sit home and do much less fun things." What this program does is teach you and your husband to make your time alone the most enjoyable part of your day. You won't want to ever miss it.

And we have people here with EIGHT children who don't make much money and they manage to get in their UA time so I know it can be done with some creativity.

We can help you transform your marriage, but not if taking the necessary steps are "impossible." It will be impossible to change your marriage if you refuse to take those steps.

First off, your husband should not get the final say. You should have equal say. You are not his child, you are his wife. It is not "impossible" to make decisions when you learn how to negotiate mutually satisfying decisions. But when you both come into the discussion with your mind made up with a black and white stance, you have already lost. That kind of thinking leads to fights and to the creation of a incompatible marriage.

What about this from The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention thread?
"What if you just get whole all on your own? You don't have to be alone to work on just yourself.Fix your side of the relationship and the whole improves based on only what you are able to fix.

Around here we think of ENs, Love Busters and all the rest of the pieces as individual parts of the program. In part that comes from only being able to learn one part at a time, but as we start to put all the pieces together and provide Care, Protection, Time and Honesty for our spouse, then our spouse can make a decision to either join us on the journey or to abandon the relationship.

He might also simply take the improved version of you and decide that he still doesn't want to invest in improving his half and that is where boundaries come into play. But before you can draw a line in the sand, you have to be sure that the sand isn't shifting or that it will support your weight and isn't quicksand.

So by meeting his ENs, avoiding Love Busters yourself, using POJA to make your own decisions even if he doesn't use it in return, and becoming a totally honest person both as it relates to your activities and emotionally, then he will either get on board or not. If you don't do those things then you can't expect him to do them at all."

It is not me who's not willing to do the POJA. There is no way for me to get him to do anything he doesn't want to do. Nothing short of divine intervention will change his mind about that.

I could try for an hour a night of UA, if he would even agree to that, but seriously there is no way to get 4-4 hour dates a week. We don't have family here, nobody in our church would be willing to watch them even one four hour time period a week, we have no one to swap childcare with, and we don't have $600 a month to spend on babysitters. That's 1/3 of his monthly income!

I would be perfectly happy with a marriage that was consistently a 6 on a scale from 1-10. It would be a big improvement over the current 3-4 level. I don't see a 10 ever happening--he's not on board with making changes to make that happen and I don't see him ever getting on board. If I could change enough myself to make that happen, and maybe he'd come around and change some things himself, that would be just fine.

What about writing Dr. Harley? It's free.


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You have to be together to learn how to negotiate. You obviously can't practice those skills alone. You have to be together to fall in love. You can't fall in love if yu are not together.


i would sell him on the program. One great way to do that is get him to read the book, He Wins, She Wins. That book was written for men and most men respond well to it. My H doesn't read books but he really liked this one.


I would figure that piece out. Get creative and maybe start a co-op with other mothers in the neighborhood. Many gyms [YMCA] have free babysitting services. You just have to get creative.


I don't see *YOU* getting on board here. So how can you sell him something that you don't even endorse? That is the first step: learning the program, staying away from piecemeal solutions, and selling it to you husband.

The way you present all this wouldn't appeal to anyone. You view it all as a way to change HIM. Why would he buy that? What is his benefit? What you need to do is learn the program and sell him on the BENEFITS. People buy things when it benefits them. And this program would greatly benefit him if he only knew about it. He doesn't know about it.

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I'm not sure how posting that quote about changing yourself means I'm looking for a way to change him. I don't see our marriage significantly improving unless BOTH of us change. I don't think I can change everything on my end and sustain that when he's critical all the time and my love bank is at zero.

There is no way to sell him on anything marriage-improvement related. He is flat-out not interested. He would rather just separate than read anything or do counseling, no matter how I present it. Even if I figured out some way to make the 4-4 hour dates work, he's not going to make time for that either.

So I guess the answer is no, there's no hope, because it's going to take both of us being willing to use the program and that's not going to happen.

I agree that you both have to change in order for your marriage to work. As far as changing him, I am going by your first post. I imagine that is how the problem has been presented to him, which is why he is so averse.


I would imagine he is not interested in wasting his time, which is what you both have doing in the past. This is why most men quickly lose interest. Their wives will drag them off to marriage counseling or the latest, greatest program and of course it doesn't work. So they just assume it is all a waste of time.

That is why I think you should learn the program and then sell it to him in a way that benefits him. If after that, he refuses to do anything to improve your marriage, then you are better off separated.

One way you might motivate him is to write Dr Harley at the radio show and ask for his help. [it is free] He might be able to get through to your husband.

What about writing Dr. Harley?