Update:

We made it through the weekend. mrEureka, I was able to get a scheduled date on Sunday night, but only for 2 hours. Could not get a sitter for any longer.

Friday we had family night out and I made it as fun as possible and anything that normally in the past may have made me "uncomfortable" to hear I did not allow to make me uncomfortable. What would be some of these... her sharing about work which involves men she works with every day. In the past I may have asked "probing" questions to "protect" myself... but instead I just asked more about the work.

My wife being very gregarious... will sometimes break out in "dance" to music. Does it make me a little uncomfortable... yea a little. Why? Fear. So I didn't let that bother me and just had a great time with family and did everything I could for fun that she would allow with our family.

What is so confusing is just 7 days ago (4 days before the she is leaving statement) we made love (we were doing this about once every 7 to 10 days) and as we made love she never seemed to be "not there" she always seemed to be there and she at the end of our love making while I was still holding her said "I do love you" as if she was trying to convince me. I only throw this out as that is so confusing from 7 days ago to ready to walk out 4 days later.

Saturday we went out of town to my family. I can't read into anything, but she allowed me to hold her hand some, she hasn't taken off rings, she allowed a hug and other signs... but I also have to remember she may just be trying to avoid open conflict.

Was it awkward... yes... as there is obvious major hurt and tension.

I did as much as I could for fun within our family environment.

As we were leaving my families home she went to the bathroom several times as we were leaving which I can tell was to hide crying. My guess it was maybe because she saw this as possibly the last time she is with our family since we only gone once every several months... but I don't believe me guessing why will help me.

As we were on the road... she had some tears and I reached over and held her hand... she squeezed tightly and more tears came. We obviously couldn't talk as kids were in back of van, but all I could do was hold her hand. Again... my thought is there is a lot of hurt on both our sides, but she may be wrestling with things.

Sunday night I she agreed to go out to dinner. I had several VERY FUN things to do, but they all ended before we could get a sitter and she said she was very hungry so we ended up with just 2 hours for dinner.

BEFORE we left for dinner she broke down crying again and I went to her and shared my heart and asked her to forgive me for my struggles that have lead to hurt in her heart. She says I am already forgiven... but she just says she doesn't know if she can do it again. Not sure what it again means, but I believe it simply means she doesn't want to struggle through hurt or pain... as neither do I. She says she can't promise anything... and she is just telling me where she is at the moment.

I didn't tell her this, but this is 100% recoverable in my mind so I do not have the mindset of quitting.

AFTER dinner we were driving around and she wanted to go look at a house WE had been talking about considering when we sale our house... back before she had decided she wanted to leave marriage. It is very confusing when I see her wanting to go look at a house together sort of dreaming, but at same time she has said she was leaving. She allowed me to hold her hand.

I am trying to hang on to positive that she has not left and has not told 5, 7 and 9 year old anything and still wearing wedding rings and still sleeping in same bed. I am also trying to rest in the Lord's hands that he will give me wisdom on solving my issues and that he will soften her heart.

After we had took a quick look at the house she said... "I just wanted to be honest here... I don't want to give false hope... right now I cannot promise anything. This is just where I am at the moment".

The last thing she said to me was I will not stay in a marriage where I am not in love just for the kids. To me this is the taker talking... I have heard my taker to the talking for a long time and it looks a lot like that.

I took a risk and I asked her how does she think people fall in love? How does that happen?

She said God puts it into your heart. I ask how though... and I said I believe he gives us the ability to love as he has designed us, but how do you see people falling in love. She said spending time together and caring for one another. I told her I agree... through time with one another, caring for one another mutually and doing as little harm to one another as possible... and that I do believe the "feelings" can come back between us and I am willing to rebuild that with my her.

I told her I had been wrestling with God on my struggles with the latest struggles just coming to light last week... and that I pray she is wrestling with Him as well.

At this point I felt myself being pulled into "trying to make a case for not divorcing" and I stopped.

She just said that this was where she was at at the moment and I ended with... I understand and hear you... this is where you are at the moment.

Then the conversation moved to the schedule of the week and the kids swim / soccer schedule.

I took the babysitter home and when I got back she was in bed waiting for me. She started to cry and said that she felt like she was judged with my statement about wrestling with God. She (not in a request, but very angrily) said do not question my faith... and then she said... I am sorry this is coming out so harsh sounding, but if I cannot share how I feel how will anything ever improve.

I told her that I was sorry as that was not my intention at all and asked her to forgive me. I said I have been working on that love buster and doing everything to take captive my thoughts and my words as I never want her to feel judged. I told her I hope she can recognize how long there hasn't been one per her own words and simply forgive me.

I thanked her for being honest with me about her feelings and sharing her heart about how something I did made her feel. I ended with I hope we get to the point where we can both share our hurts or complaints where we don't have so much emotion tied to them... she said she agreed.

I asked her if I could pray and she said yes... but because I don't trust what would come out of my mouth during prayer as a couple I just prayed the Lord's Prayer and asked for His help.

There have been so many things over the last 3 days that gives me hope, but I don't want to read into anything she has said or done... I need to 100% focus on my issues and rest in God for strength.

Right now I would like to get as much advice on every possible idea on what to do during Plan A. I would love to hear from others who have struggled and almost divorced (whether it be from infidelity or something else) and what one husband did to draw his wife back.

mrEureka said "predictability is death here". I don't want to be predictable, but I don't want to come across desperate and where she may "see my actions" as not genuine... although they would be she may perceive them as not.

Anyway... I will take as much help on Plan A as I can get.

That looks like some really good work making life fun on your part and some respectful conversations. Great job accepting her complaint. I'd suggest not letting any of those sort of conversations get too heavy or deep. I'd keep God out of it, even when she brings it up. She's too emotional for it. More, let her feel your sympathy with endearments and touching (I like the hand holding).

Your wife kind of reminds me of me. I dance wherever, whenever there's a beat and get teary very easily and I had poor boundaries once, when I didn't understand the love bank, too. I think her heart is quite open and there's more than a shot here.

Update for Sunday Night and Monday:

Sunday night wife fell asleep with daughter and then in the morning she came upstairs to tell me about the upcoming day and she had put her hand on my forehead while I was waking up and kept it there while telling me she was heading into work early to catch up on project (around 6:30). I can almost swear she said Love You as you went to leave, but now I don't even know if I trust my mind. Either way she didn't need to touch me... but then again wife is someone that touches.

She called and asked if I wanted to take a walk so I met with her at her office (we are literally across street) and took a long walk. We talked about her work and how things were going and about my work. A small amount was discussed about how the home we wanted to look at... as if we were doing it and she also said she was going to plan for us to see it. This is extremely confusing, because if you are leaving why would we look together... but then again she has told me she cannot promise me anything. All I can do is trust God will get me through no matter what she does.

Anyway... after we walked we were standing on the sidewalk and she leaned in and gave me a kiss on the lips. I don't know if this is habit or she testing how she feels or what. I am trying not to let my hopes go to high as I feel like a yo-yo at the moment. So this was Monday.

Monday night she took daughter to swim practice. It is normally over at 7:30 and usually (regardless of who takes her) can leave around 7:45 to 7:50 depending on how long it takes daughter to change. Wife text'd at 8:15 saying she was coming home. I figured one of three things happened.

1) Daugher and Wife went to grab dinner together... sometimes Wife tells me she will be late and sometimes not.
2) She got to talking with parents or someone (possibly coach). The male coach has been a little worrisome to me as he shows more interest in her than he does other wives anyone else. But as we now know... I have this fear and struggle trusting (even before my wife lied to me last year)... so my mind tries to go straight to "what could happen"
3) or they went long on practice.

So they were running between 25 to 30 minutes behind.

Now being honest... I now my fear would think she is hanging out with coach, talking, and getting closer with him and to me leaving me feeling nervous. But I know that is my fear talking. Is it likely she is sort of hanging out with coach. Yea... probably. She knows it makes me a bit uncomfortable, just because I see things about him... where I see he asks about her a lot, but not about other moms... but she also believes it is my issue (because I do have a long standing trust issue that I never really saw until now) and she isn't doing anything of concern that I should worry about. So do I think she is doing anything "wrong". I don't believe so. She is probably just talking about daughter or about swim team. I know my struggle and it is painful trying to fight my thoughts. I don't want to be blind, but I don't want me true fear control me. But here is where it gets more difficult.

When daughter comes in house she comes downstairs by herself. I naturally ask what happened... they are running behind. She said the following:

- Mommy asked me to work on my dives, but I only did that a few minutes and then I started playing on the slide.

I asked her why didn't they leave after she was done with dives. Daughter said:

- Mommy talked with (opposite sex) coach for about 30 minutes and then to (female friend) some.

Now... I can't really figure what I would talk about for 30 minutes with coach, but I am going to say I very seriously doubt my wife talked about anything that would break fidelity or faithfulness in our marriage. Yes my mind thinks about how many times my wife is there without me and how many times a week she may talk to him... but I struggle now with my own thoughts and fears versus true valid requests I should have on boundaries. Of course I am HYPER SENSITIVE ever since the deception and OS friend she had developed last year.

BUT...

When I saw wife I asked what put them so late. Her answer:

- Daughter worked on her dives and I talked with (femail friend) some. She didn't mention the coach at all. I chose not to share the discrepancy.

So here is the deal... I know I have a trust issue in general that has me projecting out what could happen if a lot of time is spent between opposite sex and a close friendship is built... that is my work and that is my struggle to get rid of (or at least reign in so it is not so intense)... BUT... when radical honest is not there is makes everything 10 fold more challenging. I am trying to tell myself maybe daughter was wrong and female friend was with them the whole 30 minutes or daughter was just assuming she was talking to coach when maybe she wasn't... however daughter (9) is pretty observant.

I have been crying out to the Lord (if He is even my Lord as I am struggling with my faith). Basically been literally crying out to Him on and off all day Tuesday.

Last night (Monday) wife fell asleep with daughter again... I go in there and tap Wife and ask if she is coming up... she didn't answer and she probably didn't realize I was there.

This morning wife comes upstairs and lays next to me in a spoon position. In my mind I would say this is a good sign... BUT she is also still with holding I love you when I say it to her and just saying "alright, talk to you later".

So today... she didn't have time to talk and she had told me they were having a going away lunch for a male coworker that was leaving. I did NOT let this bother me at all where before I might be thinking who will she be sitting with and who will she be getting close with and concerning myself over long term risk. I didn't at all... I had just told her ok... have a good lunch. Anyway... she came by to get her phone after the lunch and she had 2 ladies with her. I will admit it was nice she only had women... but she was very cold. She quickly would say... "well we gotta go"... twice. I was trying to be polite to the ladies and briefly talk to them to be cordial. Anyway... after the second time I said ok... Love you and she said ok see you later.

I know last year I was where she is... after finding out about the lies she had been telling and her going out with the other man / men I was having feelings so harsh to her that I doubted I loved her at all... but I knew I wasn't going to leave the marriage at all so I had to deal with it and push through... unless there was actual infidelity and un-repentance. I am long-suffering so it would have to go extremely bad before I would walk out.

She wasn't able to walk this afternoon either, but she did email to say we are scheduled to look at this other home on Saturday at 4:00PM.

Many would tell me why bother doing any of that stuff if she is going to leave... and I believe the counselor told me I shouldn't proceed with buying anything until we have commitment of rebuilding marriage as that would just complicate things... so maybe wife just sees this as looking and if it got serious she would make a decision. I don't know. Just confusing.

So just got off phone with her and told her I loved her and got the standard alright or ok good by. I can tell you this is so painful and so hard.

Is she just withholding love or is there NO love at all. I truly believe there isn't a feeling of "romantic in love"... but even I feel love for my spouse with all that has been done... it isn't this super romantic love, but it is clearly love that I still feel.

I had counseling Monday. I shared more about some things in my past that I believe have contributed to my fear and struggle that I have to own and he said it made more sense to him my struggle. Now he has always said he respected my boundaries in general and he NEVER told me they were bad... he said they were reasonable... just wife didn't agree. BUT... I am not sure he had the full context of HOW the request would come out or how it sounded to wife. Actually all those years they came out more as demands and disrespectful judgements when it should have been requests and respectful persuasion.

My fear is if wife decides she does love me and wants to reconcile and rebuild the love and get back romantic feelings as well... my fear is she will go to the opposite end of the spectrum and just say any "concern" I have over any boundary is just my struggle and use it to do what she wants regardless of feelings. If we are able to recover I would think there has to be "some" concern over the other person's feelings? Maybe not.

Anyway... Counselor said that he believes Wife is ambivalent right now. One minute she may feel some love for me and one minute she may not feel anything. He said last Thursday when she asked me to leave the room that he told her to continue to persevere.

He told me for now that he and I would work on my issues... the way my fear of hurt effects how things come out... even if the overall intent may be sound. He said he felt I could overcome my struggles and while we focus on that just to keep harmony... care for wife... love her consistently and not question her or talk to her about relational stuff especially as she is ambivalent... he said just give her time as I make life fun with her.

I forgot to add... I don't know why I concern myself over what other people may think... since she is the one threatening to leave everyone sort of looks at you as the only one with issues and that the one leaving is the saint putting up with everything. Maybe that is pride.

Tonight (Tuesday) I had daughter at swim and wife had boys home. As stressed as I was I got my act together and when I got home I gave her a hug and managed to get a kiss in where she didn't show signs of stopping it. She did not pull away or act like it was not ok... although it did seem a bit awkward.

I just joked around with her, played with boys and her at same time.

I then took care of boys by: getting the ready for bed, having Bible Study, start a load of laundry and then take trash down while wife soaked her feet. When I got back we talked about work and her struggles of the day. I did offer her hot tea which she loves, but she declined and I offered her her foot cream as I know she was going to need it after her foot soaking.

She went to our bed tonight and when in bed she said she needed to make a request. She needed to be able to abstain from any sexual intimacy for a season. She said she did it over the last X months, but she just is not motivated (or some word like that)... basically it came to me as I am not willing / ready. She asked that we do this while we work on things. I told her I was ok with it for a season and ultimately if she was unwilling I didn't want her subjecting herself to it. I didn't tell this part to her, but physical intimacy according to counselor can bring about more emotional intimacy unless the person is having "sexual aversion". I don't know if wife is having this or not... but if she is... strongly encouraging her to do it even from counselor may be bad. Anyway... I told her I was on board with it for a season. I hope and pray the season is like a month or two max... I hope. But right now I hope love can be rebuilt.

So tonight I asked her if she would be willing to just sit and we hold each other. She seem to be ok and repositioned so I could hold her... it was more me holding, but that is ok. We talked about the kids some... She still says things like "we have been here before where we both are away from God... things get bad... we move back to God and things get better and then we move away from God again and get bad." I didn't want to debate anything, but what is clearly different is we are getting counseling help and have spiritual leaders encouraging us and supporting us. Granted the counseling has been 15 months... but slow progress is being made and it has been actually speeding up in the last 3 months (well to me). Things are being identified on both sides. So in the end I personally think this is different. If we can both get help in fixing our individual personality disorders (whatever the heck they are) and learn to care for one another properly (hopefully with as much of Marriage Builders concepts as possible) then we will be all the better for it.

What I did tell her was I think God will honor our perseverance and He will be glorified for it and in the end we will have a stronger marriage. She didn't agree or disagree, but at least she didn't say no.

In the end she simply said she is trying. And when I left the bed to go downstairs and do the laundry I said "I love you" and she said "love you". That is something along with the overall conversation. At least it isn't... I have got an apartment and leaving.

This part is probably my pride... but I feel like my wife may look at me one day as "weak" or "the broken one" and feel like I was the only one with "significant" issues in the marriage. I shouldn't concern myself with this and I am not voicing it to her, but internally I know it is popping into my head. I mean... she is the one threatening to walk out not me. So most people look at the one that will be LEFT as the BAD GUY... when I truly considered leaving her for her issues a year ago and further in the past... but I knew I just would never do it as I had no Biblical grounds. So why does that bother me so stinking much.

You need to relax a whole lot. That's not to say your stress isn't very reasonable and natural but survival here depends upon being able to find your zen. Slap on a poker face and fake it till you make it. Things generally are pretty good between you and it's building. Even if she did move out, which I doubt she would, she would still be very open to love bank deposits and the deposits are working. So chill.

As for 'trust issues' and being wary of other men - that's just smart. I don't see any major red flags but I like that you are being watchful enough you'd notice them. All of this work is pointless if there's competition.

Great work on the lunch walks and great work on her request re SF. I think women can really, truly bond when it's clear SF is unpressured.

Stop expecting her to say I love you - that takes time. Also:



Cut it out! This message essentially says; "Our marriage is sucky to me too but I am doing what god wants and you should too."

It makes your marriage offer seem about as sexy as sweaty cheese. Your message should be about how great and light and fun the future is. With visuals like the new house. Not about how she's going to need to persevere like you do.

Women are different. Even when they logically agree that marriage requires work and a bit of suffering, their spirit leaves the building without a second look when this happens. The women who are really into effort are actually the worst. Women who work the marriage like a job end up losing all feeling and it's hard for them to get it back. Men don't have that problem.

You described her quote of not staying just for the kids as her taker talking. Would you be interested to know that Dr H often tells women to leave if they are unhappy and he always tells people to listen to their taker. He wouldn't say it to your wife because you're willing to regain the love but he would agree with the sentiment you don't stick it out for duty.

So quit talking about perseverance and duty. It's soul shrivelling to a romantic like your wife,

Particularly stop this inner dialogue where you are trying to figure out who is the bad guy. Part of PoJA is respecting the other viewpoint.

She's an emotionally led person who isn't going to listen to duty speeches ( thank goodness) but your wooing her is working. So relax.

100% agree with everything indie said, she saved me a half an hour of typing.

And good for you for bringing you daughter to swimming, what a simple and effective solution!

Internally I am not relaxed as all of this is painful. However externally I am showing as much relax as possible. I am showing love, interest, desire, talking to her.

It is this simple... I am absolutely willing to do whatever I can to rebuild our marriage.

I am acting more chill than I have in years. Slapping on the poker face... but I don't have to fake my desire and willingness and love... because they are all real. Yes... I have to fake not being fearful of a future without my family. And no... I do not feel deeply "in love romantically"... but I still have a strong love and it is still there and would not take much to me for us to rebuild romantic love.

I am trying. I don't say anything about it to her or ask why she isn't or anything. I just act like a husband should and tell her I love her like I normally would. She is not really this lovey dovey type person so I hope she doesn't have this adverse feeling to hearing loving statements.

I get it... it is not romantic and will not bring about feelings of being in love.

A side note... is my wife really a romantic? I am the more emotionally one and in touch with my feelings. Very able to articulate my feelings at any given moment and open to showing them to someone I am close with. I very much love affectionate touches, genuine kind words of affirmation, and I guess what many would say is parts of a romantic.

My wife on the other hand is very much like "the guys". Meaning you don't see very much emotion from her at all... Maybe she really is a romantic... just not really seen on the outside. She does read a lot of "christian" oriented romantic type novels. She just has never really seem to be the type that was a romantic. But I may just not be seeing things clearly.

Sometimes it is hard to see her as being "emotionally" led just because she normally keeps things in or just let's it wash over her back. I am putting a lot of effort into relaxing!

I think I am going to create a new post specific to questions about plan a. I thought about putting it hear, but it may get lost in this lengthy thread.

Thanks

Just a quick update... she is still here and has not walked out. She says the following once a week for the last 3 weeks: "I am willing to see where things go, but I can't promise I won't be in the same place 6 months from now". So basically it comes across as one foot in the door, but the rest of her body out of the door. Just very emotionally difficult to hear. Makes you feel like no matter what you do it may not matter. Also makes you feel like she is saying she has no issues whatsoever... and that I am the only one with issues. I can promise you she has plenty of issues. Coming from a family where the mother divorced and remarried 5 times she has Daddy issues and struggles telling the truth and so on. Anyway... no since beating her up... the point is she has things she has to work on and this is not all on me... although I believe it is all on me to get her to not walk off and do more damage then she could ever imagine to both of us and our children... especially when you have a 100% WILLING partner.

I have not had any failures on Demands, Disrespectful Judgements or Anger (based on her confirmation) and I have not expressed any uncomfortableness that in the past some things may make me feel in regards to opposite sex interaction for her.

According to what she said in counseling she will still abide by our original agreement on boundaries and work on it.

Counselor in individual session agreed that 3 weeks ago when she said she was leaving was the first time she has ever expressed how she felt in regards to boundaries or at least how they came across to her. He still says my boundaries are reasonable, BUT talking about them regularly or letting my fear lead to regular discussion in the past to protect was what she couldn't handle... and how she interpreted them never were what I was saying.

So I have not been discussing anything. Sure her friendliness with OS still makes me uncomfortable. She isn't going to be going to lunch with other guys or going out with them, but she does work with them all through the day. She says she wants to be able to go to work and not feel sick to her stomach if she speaks to a guy... of course I have NEVER said anything like not being able to speak to a guy... BUT for her that is what she feels like I am asking since she is so gregarious... basically her interpretation.

Probably once a week something is brought up (I haven't brought anything up... she has) that is very hurtful. Basically the comment about not knowing where she will be in 6 months. But at the same time she wants to look at houses with me and so forth. Very confusing. It is like being on a stormy see having my emotions high with hope one day and feel like no hope the next.

I am doing my best to Plan A... however almost every opportunity I suggest getting a sitter or make a plan she says no... usually she says it is because she it tired... which she really does have fatigue issues after about 9:00PM so I don't complain... I just ask again for a different time a day or two later.

Last week there was a rough moment when I asked if I could hold her in the bed and she said "I don't care". Hurtful... just part of the up and down emotional roller coaster.

So let's give some positives as I want to avoid focusing on negative:

- She surprised me today with a date night Saturday from 4PM to 10PM.
- She did hold my hand walking today.
- She has started allowing me to hold her in the bed or she takes initiative and per her arm around me until she falls asleep.
- An issue with her parents came up where they have ALWAYS tried to get her and the kids to their home without me. They have just never liked me. In the past we had to fly to see them so we had agreed early on that we would go as a family and not let them try to split us apart. She shared the latest conversation with me where they just asked again if only my wife and kids could visit without me. They have moved so they are only 1.5 hours away. Now our agreement has always been that we go as a family and we will not exclude the other spouse. I can tell you one thing if my parents tried that crap they would get an ear full and basically have to decide if they ever one to see the grand kids, because I wouldn't allow them to pull that crap. My wife did make a strong stand and said that the agreement we made in the past was one we both made and they cannot put that on me as it wasn't me controlling, but us making a decision together to protect family time and not leave out the other spouse. So I give her credit for standing up to her..... BUT... without dialoging with me my wife knew I was going to be out of town for business trip (happens 1 time a year) and she told her mom she would bring kids up for 1 day that weekend.

So my wife making decision without us talking is very undesirable and is a love buster to me (Independent Behavior) and the trip we had planned to go up this weekend got cancelled.

What I would like my wife to do is tell them NO... this is what you want... to remove my husband from a family trip and we are not going to play those games.

Now had my wife spoke to me about it before making a decision I might have said go ahead and go... the problem is that is what they want and they are getting there way and my wife let them... and did it without talking to me.

If my parents had called and asked them to come down while I was gone (BUT NOT BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT ME THERE) then there wouldn't be a problem. Yes... we agreed we were not going to go fly across country to her various family members without the whole family... but if family is within a couple of hours driving distance I don't think either of us would have an issue if the other was out of town. What makes this different is that is what her parents want... they want to deliberately leave me out... for whatever reason neither of us fully understand why... or at least my wife has never told me they have ever give a direct reason.

Anyway... long enough.

I am doing everything I can to be the best husband I can be and try to meet her needs... at least the ones I know. Still hoping counselor will get to the point where we can go through the lists so I don't have to guess.

Sir, you should try to eliminate any overnight travels.
Dr. Harley says that married couples should be together every night

I understand Dr Harley's thoughts on this. In the past my wife went with me. It happens one time every one or two years, but now with kids it is difficult for us to all go. In the past when she could not go we talked every night for 15 to 30 minutes when we would both go to sleep. I also make sure we are in fairly constant contact.

If my job had me doing this regularly I would most definitely change it as I don't like being away from my family and see the risk. I also go with my boss (male) so it is 2 men... both married and Christians who keep each other accountable. I have extremely strong boundaries so I practically cannot get into a bad situation with OS as I don't allow it.

Thanks.

As an update... I am continuing to do my best to Plan A.

But have questions about specific things.

1st Section:

Wife was out shopping school supplies. I was at home working, but I took a break and my 7 year old and I stopped to do a 20 minute workout together. My wife called and asked if I could call 2 stores and have them go look and see if they had a very specific composition book. I responded with "I am doing a workout with son, but..." and before I could finish she said "Sorry to bother you... forget it... bye" in a frustrated sort of angry voice. Now what I was going to say to her was... "but... if you need me to call now I can or if you have time I can call them in 15 minutes and let her tell me which would be better for her".

What I did was simply call back and explained that I did not say I wouldn't do it, but just letting her know what I was doing and that I could do it right away or after and let her let me know how fast she needed the answer. I told her I didn't feel like I did anything that would warrant an angry response. She did apologize (still sounding a little frustrated), but we moved on.

- Should I have even bothered calling her back?
- Should I have have not even provided a choice, but simply said I would do it right away for her?
- Yes... I felt like she love busted me with anger, but should I have even let her know I didn't fee like I deserved the anger?

2nd Section:

She made a positive step by planning a date night this past Saturday night. So we started out on our date by going to look at a possible house for our family. (Yes we are looking at houses even though she had threatened to walk out 3 weeks ago.)

Anyway... On the way to look at house my wife had been texting someone (I normally don't know who unless I ask as she never really volunteers... but at this point scared to ask as she may think I am not trusting her at all and making her feel untrusted at every turn ). Turns out she was texting her coworker and he has asked her if she could take his "on call" time so he could go to a wedding. She tells me she agreed took the "on call" time for him.

I asked her does she think there will ever be a point where she will get feedback from me before she independently makes a decision that affects both of us. I told her that by taking his call I feel like she placed more value on her work relationship with him more than with our marriage and our date. She tried to say that she would probably not get a call� but I explained� BUT you could get a major issue and have to stop date completely. She agreed.

It started going south quickly as she started making excuses and I didn't want to get into an argument so I just told her I would get over it, but I wish she would have not taken call on our date night.

Now my wife was continuing to text and then said that coworker decided he wasn�t going to go to function now and would keep his call.

But she kept texting so I asked if she was going to be texting with him about work all night. She said no� she was just trying to see what had happened. I didn�t say this� but what does it matter what happened� he doesn�t need the call time covered...drop it and now continue the date.

The date still went well and no more discussion on this and I was able to move on without letting it control my emotions.

So... should I have said anything at all about this? I feel like according to MB I should be completely honest about, but not make demands or be disrespectful or get angry... which I don't believe I did any of those.

Anyway... things are improving.

I had counseling individually today... I get so frustrated when I bring up MB and he talks about how practical Dr Harley is, but then says something that seems to contradict. Today he said something like "sometimes we need to know when not to say anything and let it go". Maybe I am missing something... but does this go against MB? Do we let go of something that may bother us?

Yes that does go against Dr. Harley's advice.

Amazing how much bad counseling is out in the world. I was listening to a preacher talk about marriage on the radio in my car, just happened upon it. It was this exact same advice. Turn the other cheek. It was a long soliloquy about how to say nothing in marriage, 'even if the other spouses act is sinful.' Yes, this is DEFINITELY against Dr. Harley's advice.

It is no wonder the divorce rate is so high, with such a plethora of bad advice being given.

Have you listened to these clips? Beware of Bad Counselors

I believe I might a listened to those clips a long while ago... will listen again.

My wife has made it clear she isn't going to another counselor and I haven't pushed it because of where she is emotionally. She said she is not going to start all over and she likes this counselor. He is a "respected" counselor in the community and many people like him.

I simply can't make my wife switch. Had I known what I know now when we first looked at counseling I would have looked for a MB only counselor in the area... if one exists. But I didn't find out about MB until our counselor had us read His Needs / Her Needs and had us fill out the questionnaires for Emotional Needs and Love Busters. NO... we have yet to go over the answers. YES... partly because we had so many struggles that it seemed like every counseling session was a gripe session by one of us and recap of the last week full of love busters and what not. Both of us were doing it and we were miserable.

So when I look back I wish he was a more "forceful" or more "strongly pushing" an action plan... basically telling us to STOP everything we are doing and do only what he says... but for the most part he seems to not like to be forceful... not sure how to explain. Maybe he should have been stopping us from "sharing" so much of the "issues" and giving more action steps. Some sessions I believe it was just one or both of us talking.

I look back it I mostly remember him helping us to learn to listen and acknowledge the other person's complaints... but it always seemed like we were in the acknowledgement stage and not in the negotiating stage.

He is the one that lead us to His Needs / Her Needs and me to Love Busters... but what I don't like is the couple of statements made that go against MB that I think are very important... and how he has not been strongly pushing these concepts. They are there in general, but not in the way Dr Harley lays them out... and again how he has spoken against a couple of things.

Those 2 things deal with 15+ hours of time and with the statement that he doesn't believe you can come to an "enthusiastically agreement" on everything.

In regards to time... he felt that it was difficult to achieve (based on our schedule) and encouraged us to get at least 8 to 10. He explained to me later in private (when I complained about his statement) my wife was absolutely against 15+ hours and he was trying to give an initial goal she would agree with and hopefully that would allow some opportunity to improve our time together and get more hours. He said she was already herself saying it could not be done so he was trying to get her to meet me where she was willing. I would have been OK with the negotiating to at least 10 ours, but what I was NOT OK with was him saying himself that he felt it was not always reasonable based on schedules.

I DISAGREE with his statement about 15+ being hard in general... as I agree with Dr Harley that it is about scheduling and choosing what is important... but I need to avoid disrespectful judgment or trying to demand it from my wife if she feels it is too difficult at this time. But it definitely did not help having counselor say what he said. I have requested it, but she doesn't think it is possible. I have provided a tentative schedule that hit right at 15 hours (we really need 25) since have been a bad place.... but I cannot make my wife agree. This is why I am removing all love busters and doing plan a as best I can and will continue doing this. I have gotten my wife to agree to just have my daughter at swim class 3 times a week instead of 6 so this will help... but it helps more with family commitment time more than it does our UA time.

I think we are very close to looking at the emotional needs / love busters answers so we can specifically work on them. I told him I believe we really need to look at those and make efforts to focus on them.

BUT remember... my wife was walking out the door and going to pursue divorce just 3 to 4 weeks ago so her willingness may not be there and I have to plan A regardless of what she is doing.

I am thinking of going to Steve Harley for just me as my wife said she is not changing and MAYBE she would be willing to sit in at some point... or maybe doing the coaching program and see if she is willing to go through it... but I believe I have to wait a little longer after plan A improves things further.

The second thing he spoke against was the "enthusiastic agreement". He said he doesn't think you can ALWAYS come to an "enthusiastic agreement". Now I MUST SAY... that statement is correct based on what I have read. Let me expalin... take the POJA and the default action... if you can't agree you don't do it. This in itself means there isn't "enthusiastic agreement". Then you look at the resentment from not doing it or the resentment when the spouse does it anyway (Resentment Type A and Resentment Type B). Now if we are BOTH on board and BOTH agree that if we don't agree we don't do it and try to come to an enthusiastic agreement one could say we are in "enthusiastic agreement" to be ok if we don't come to an agreement.

But I am fairly certain in our relationship where my wife is more liberal or open to doing whatever, but where I am more boundary driven and conservative that we may run into a number of situations where the default action would be to do nothing and in turn my wife would be in constant resentment type A with "possibility" of negotiating something. The point is... could we always come to "enthusiastic agreement". I think that was his point... there are times you may not be able to agree and you end up with the default action of not doing anything OR allowing it to happen. Either way someone is not in "enthusiastic agreement". So just based on his statement I would have to agree there are times you wouldn't... ESPECIALLY if you were not 100% on board with being ok with things possibly not being done or not coming up with negotiated agreement in the time frame needed to make decision.

Anyway... I asked him... so let's say 10% of the time we can't come to enthusiastic agreement, but have to just not do it and we have one possible form of resentment... does that mean we don't follow POJA? And we don't learn it. He said no... he was just stating he believes there will be times you can't come to the "enthusiastic agreement".

To summarize... my wife is not going to go to anyone else... perhaps after plan A long enough she may consider the coaching? And I am sure she would not do it unless current counselor was ok with it.

I am going to do everything I can individually with him to constantly steer to MB concepts and push him to focus those areas. In counseling as a couple I have to be careful in steering as I do not want him contradicting anything with MB.

I know most everyone will say drop counselor... but I can't make my wife do it at this juncture. She will not.

Thanks

That's an interesting analysis.

Being able to reach enthusiastic agreement may depend on the state of mind you're in (The Three States of Mind in Marriage). If you're in the state of Intimacy, enthusiastic agreement is easier to reach than if you're in one of the other states.

Possibly what your counselor is getting at is that enthusiastic agreement may not always be possible for someone in your wife's current state of mind; i.e., "was walking out the door and going to pursue divorce just 3 to 4 weeks ago".

Regarding the reduced amount of UA time your wife is willing to agree on, it's not optimal but given your circumstances, I'd take what she'll give and steadily try to increase it. As you find more and more enjoyable things to do together, hopefully your wife will want to spend more time with you.

Sounds like you're in a difficult position with a narrow path to success. If your wife is open to you checking out MB coaching, I'd give it a shot.

I see what you are saying and that may be the case... but it did come across as a overall general statement from him which it makes it sound like he does not fully agree with POJA... especially since I was asking him to teach it (so she could hear it as well without coming from me). But I do agree with the above about the different states and how it would effect things. My wife has been at best in the 2nd state, but mostly in the 3rd state. We have been love busting each other for years so a lot of hurt is there on both sides... and I know for certain my needs were not met for years either... I can say I wasn't meeting hers either.

I agree on getting what she is willing to give... BUT I would say counselor is definitely not a FULL MB supporter in the fact that HE believes 15+ hours is difficult and does not tell us we must get 15+ to rebuild love. But he has also clarified with me that he has to look at where we are and try to coach based on what someone is willing to do. I still would rather him flat out say you need 15+... or you need POJA and here is how you do it and PUSH us to it... CHALLENGE us. Now I am on board with MB principles... wife however has been resistant over the past 6 months as I shared bits and pieces. Essentially I believe we have not been in the state of intimacy so nothing I say would be of benefit.

To give you quick background:
She has made 2 walk out / divorce threats. The first time in January and the things that she listed as issues causing her discomfort I removed. I also read Love Busters after that threat and realized I was doing 3 of them which she did not point out. I stopped those. I have asked her if I had done any of them since (around March when I read it) and she said no (other than 2 times where she felt judged and she told me and I apologized and re-worded). So as far as I or counselor knew the core issues she listed were removed.

We still had boundary issues for me in where she was fine with going to lunch with other guys (individually or multiple or in coed) where I wasn't ok with it (other than rare exceptions). As well as how she communicated with opposite sex and gave them a lot of attention... most say they feel like best friends almost immediately due to how her personality is. So fairly regularly I made requests on boundaries. In the end it turns out her perception of what I was asking was NOT what I was requesting AND because of my fear of my wife having an affair led me to bring it up too much which made her feel even worse like I couldn't trust her in simple relational things.

To keep it short (you can read past posts)... When she made the latest threat (and looked to be carrying it out) she introduced a "new issue" about how her perception of what I want in boundaries was making her sick as she felt she couldn't even speak to another man or if she went to the lunch room she couldn't sit at a table near another man or whatever. She simply said she couldn't live that way... she felt she was doing nothing wrong and had no desire to cheat and had no lust or anything. Just a friendly person. She had also felt going to lunch with other men wasn't doing anything "wrong".

Now I spoke to counselor and he has told me he definitely leans to my boundaries and not hers. He told me he saw nothing wrong with my boundaries and respects them. He has told me that they were a little more strict than his, but thought they were reasonable. The problem was my wife did NOT see them reasonable.

Since our last counseling after her latest threat he told me that we will still continue with agreement (that was made) to not go to lunch with other men or have regular lunch outings in coed setting, but stick to the exception rules of special lunches (like Birthdays, Holidays, retirement, etc).

So even though counselor had no issues with my boundaries (see one of my first posts in this thread to see what I live by) I am NOT married to HIM... but to my wife that did have issues.

So even though my wife was feeling sick in her stomach on her perception of what I was saying I never said or even implied what she was thinking BUT it was clear my regular requests for protection made her feel like I didn't trust her AT ALL (even though she had broken trust in several big ways in the past 2 years)... but she felt I would never grow to trust and her perception was she couldn't live like this. And my fear of affair lead to too much request / discussion and with her already being in the 3rd state it all mixed like oil and water.

So... I am doing plan A, I am back in the Bible and working on renewing my mind and thinking / acting like Christ wants (which strengthens my resolve to NOT love bust) and (strengthens my resolve to Love my spouse and make choices that care for her and her needs). I just hope she gets fully on board at some point so it isn't just one of us doing most of the work. Not saying she isn't doing any work or trying, because I see in the last week she definitely is... just that it will be great when both of us are giving 100%.

I truly believe we can be romantically in love, but I also believe it will take all the concepts Dr Harley lays out to have best chance of success and LONG TERM romantic love.

Now a days too many people think of marriage as existing without Romantic Love and that is sad. The Bible talks about unconditional love and many other love qualities... but it also talks about passion and I don't think you can have the passion described in the Song of Soloman without romantic love.

Ok long enough as I can make large posts... which is probably why very few are responding now... gotta learn to shorten things up.

In my previous marriage, my ex and I had the same issue you have. When I complained that I didn't feel comfortable with her traveling with the same man several times to out of state conferences, booking flights together, booking rooms at the same hotel together, etc, she said that I should trust her. We talked with a marriage counselor, our pastor, her best friend, all of whom advised her not to travel alone with another man. To this day, I don't understand why that wasn't enough to get her to stop.

I used to struggle with trying to understand her point of view, thinking, "Is it true, I don't trust her? Maybe I should just trust her." It wasn't until divorce recovery that a counselor helped me realize the problem wasn't that I was bothered by the possibility of me not trusting her, I was bothered by her dismissing my feelings. She shouldn't have needed a counselor, a pastor, a friend to tell her what to do; a spouse should care enough about the other's feelings to take action.

In your case, if your wife truly is in the state of Withdrawal most of the time, it'll be hard to get her to care about your feelings.

Just to make sure, have you read What's Wrong with Unconditional Love?. I had heard numerous biblical sermons on unconditional love in marriage and interpreted it as I should love my spouse no matter what. I think Dr. Harley's analysis of unconditional love is spot on, and I wish I had known about it a long time ago.

Do you have a time frame for Plan A? I've heard that if it goes on too long without results, it can be detrimental to the one trying to implement it.

Agree 100%!! I hope your wife starts seeing that too.

I am not certain what state she is in right at the moment. Clearly state of withdrawal 4 weeks ago. I have been doing plan A and I see some positive feedback, but I am sure she is in "guarded" mode so don't know what that puts her in. I know it isn't at the State of Intimacy. Both our Takers were in control for a while.

My wife is a avoidance liar. She has done it for years to avoid conflict. Now most of the time it was over things that were not a "HUGE" deal to me... meaning they were not really about OS boundaries.

My wife is not someone you can always count on. This bothers me a lot, because it is hard to have her back as I don't know when she has messed up. Meaning she losing things 50 percent of the time, she says she is going to do something and 50 percent of the time she doesn't (says she forgot). She is very absent minded and not very mindful of things at all. She has left people hanging when they were counting on her to do something, because she forgot. I do at times wonder if she has chemical issues in the brain. She is on anti-depressants, but I don't know what effect that has and if she could get completely off of them if our marriage was wonderful.

Anyway... point is I never know if what she says she will do she will do. A lot of times I see this is just a choice on her part to not be mindful and just not be considerate of others, but I don't want to judge her as I don't really know.

I mentioned she was an avoidance liar... well there was a BIG issue for me last year... last year I found she had a secret second life. (You can read earlier parts of this thread), but to summarize she was going to lunch with several other guys, then individual guys, one guy more so than others, going to breakfast and never telling me or lying saying she couldn't go to lunch with me due to work, but went with him / them.. I did do snooping and spying (unfortunately later after the consultant had left town), but I never found anything that would show an actual physical affair and no correspondence ever got really emotionally personal. Again you can read past posts in this thread. At the minimum my wife was emotionally connected at a close friend level and having some of her needs met (conversation, admiration) by another man or two. Never proof of any lust or sexual advances... just what looked like a close friendship with several OS.

You see my wife is a very gregarious person that likes to talk ALL the time. She will tell the same story 15 times in a day and I'll hear it 5 times and remind her she already told me. Again... not mindful.

My wife still to this day doesn't think she did anything WRONG other than LIE about going out with OS for lunch and breakfast. Again... see past early posts for details. She did apologize for lying to me at some point and that it hurt me, but that was it. If the one OS consultant had not left town and gone back to his home office (multiple states away) I still wonder if the friendship would have ended as was requested by myself and the counselor. Essentially that friendship built out of lies to me.

So do I "TRUST" my wife?

In the sense of... will she just go out and have a physical affair or be sexual with another man? NO... I don't believe she would at all...

BUT... do I trust she will not over time allow closeness build between her and another man and do I trust she will have up good boundaries to prevent mixed signals. NO... because in my estimation her boundaries are weak. The counselor has stated they are weak. And they do add "RISK" as he put it.

And do I trust she will do what she says she will do? No... not really. With a 50% hit or miss how can you trust that? She will tell you... almost 100% of the time I do what I will say. She will tell you she has not issues trusting me at all in regards to boundaries, because I am always open and honest and tell her pretty much everything.

But have there been times I have said or done something that would make her feel that I had no trust or faith in her in the past... yes. Counselor understands that what I was sharing are pointing out was not me saying to my wife I don't trust you... I was sharing my desires for boundaries... but many times it came across to her as there was never any trust (even before last years big deception) and she wants to be trusted. I know... I believe in earning trust and retaining trust through your actions... she doesn't seem to fully understand this. She finally got to the point to where she understood where I had some trust issues after last year with the specific situation where she lied... but it is like she expects me to get over that and fully trust quickly.

Dang... I am getting long winded again.

I don't understand either... I am stopping the things I was doing LB's and what not, BECAUSE I care for her and they were hurting her. Why can't she see this for me???

One of the last things she said before the last threat was "WHO was going to be the person who judges what is "reasonable" or not. I told her it is us... we have to decide and do it by protecting one another and discussing things (POJA). You see she felt my boundaries were unreasonable and that I was just insecure and jealous and wanted to know who would "reign" me in sort of speak. The issue is... most women I know (outside of a few) seem to like having good boundaries so being married to someone else would likely mean I would never have to discuss boundaries since that person also has boundaries... but I have to make this work with my wife.

At this point I can't really say much about boundaries... I have help steer us back to a point where my wife decides she wants to rebuild our marriage and is willing to try and meet some needs together.

Everyone (not here) keeps saying it could take years to recover... I say bull crap... it doesn't have to take that long IF BOTH commit to Dr Harley's methods. I see too many folks on these forums that have recovered and many pretty quickly who seemed to be in worse shape than we have been.

Thanks for your replies... it is hard going at this alone.

I probably should change "it is hard going at this alone." to "it is hard going at this without both spouses all in"... because she is making some efforts.

I can see the path to full recovery and a fully in romantic love marriage so clearly... but it will take both of use all in!

I just hope I can ride the emotional roller coaster long enough to get there... BUT make sure I am not causing any part of the emotional roller coaster so the love deposits can continue to flow without love busters to my wife.