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Originally Posted by Lou519
I think I have gotten to the bottom of the guy friend. No physical affair, but she is at the beginnings of an emotional one. I read all of their texts for the last month (verified none were deleted by checking phone bill). There is nothing extremely personal, but a lot of stuff that is beyond the scope of their school requirements, even when they're talking about school. Just too friendly. I have talked to her about it, and she has read Basic Concepts now. She says she is not attracted to him but she admits she is getting joy from their conversations. That's all I know right now.

She is seriously considering asking for us to separate for now. I am terrified of this. What is MB's view of separation? I have tried some searches of articles and discussion forums, but I haven't found anything particularly direct. Other marriage crisis services seem to almost encourage separation, to allow both parties to "think it through". This seems to go against the grain of UA and Love Deposits.

Lou, at this point your best bet is to hire a PI and get evidence of their affair.
Dont believe your "trusting feelings" that they arent having one.
Get evidence and then come back here.

In the meantime, Dr. Harley would encourage you to enter Plan A.

Also, if she moves DO NOT HELP HER MOVE.

EDIT: Also, don't tell your wife that you have a thread in the Forum.

Last edited by Jedi_Knight; 07/14/14 08:35 PM.
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Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
"I've seen so many spouses lie about affairs, that when one spouse wants a separation, my best guess is that he or she is having an affair. I'm right almost every time.

Why would anyone need to be alone to sort things out? It makes much more sense to think that being separated makes it easier to be with their lover. Granted, there are many good reasons for a separation, such as physical or extreme mental abuse. But of all those I've seen separate, most have had lovers in the wings."
here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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You are being gaslighted to the extreme and due to your lack of digging hard enough, she WILL spin such a beautiful romantic love story about how her NEW White Knight came to her rescue AFTER your marriage was only a marriage on a piece of paper.

You have 2 weeks!!!

What will you do to defeat this apparent affair?

Sit back and wait and let her romantic fable evolve,

Or,

Put spyware on her cell phone, a gps tracker on her vehicle, VAR's in her car and other areas she goes for "Privacy", put a keylogger on her computer she uses, and hire a PI?

Your choice. It's your marriage dissolving before your very own eyes.

LTL

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Here is an article by Dr. Harley himself, posted on this website, where he acknowledges (at the beginning of his article) that not all separations involve infidelity.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Like I said before, I snooped and read through a month and a half of texts and while they are beyond the purely professional level, there was really nothing that surprised me. I confirmed that none had been deleted by checking them against her phone records. Also, I confronted the other man about the excessive texting. The texts (at least on the phone that I know about) have slowed down significantly, but not completely (like I would expect if she had a "cheat" phone). Her attitude towards me has improved somewhat since that time (about 2 weeks ago). She is not quite as distant. She stopped locking me out of the bedroom.


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7 month A revealed 12/31/14 (OM ended it)
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Originally Posted by Lou519
Here is an article by Dr. Harley himself, posted on this website, where he acknowledges (at the beginning of his article) that not all separations involve infidelity.

I am not sure what you have read that makes you think you are the exception to this comment:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
"I've seen so many spouses lie about affairs, that when one spouse wants a separation, my best guess is that he or she is having an affair. I'm right almost every time.

And maybe you are the first instance in my 13 years on this board. Who knows. But the spy techniques you have employed are not thorough and are not convincing in the least. Even the dumbest wayward knows how to avoid using a phone [that her spouse has full access to] to carry on her affair. This is not surprising. But it doesn't sound like you have tried other methods.

Wouldn't it be terrible if you spun your wheels taking futile steps when there was an affair the entire time?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Lou,

In another thread you wrote, She finally told me that she "loves me but doesn't love me" last week.

And in the same thread you spoke about your W going to classes, given the killer statement above, it seems your W is involved with one of her teachers or a fellow student. I think you will find your answer at her school.

I believe you mentioned that her behavior changed for the worse when she started attending school, because another risk factor is starting to associate with a new group of people.

God Bless
Gamma

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Women who consider separation *without* an affair will spend years pleading their husband to change. "Figure it out" means she is deciding on another man.

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Originally Posted by alis
Women who consider separation *without* an affair will spend years pleading their husband to change. "Figure it out" means she is deciding on another man.

This is true. We typically have to beg to persuade neglected, abused women to leave their husbands. It is a very difficult feat to get such a woman to move out. Even women who are being beaten up don't want to leave. They believe if they just try a little harder, their husbands will change.

The only ones we have seen volunteer to move out are those in an affair. Because otherwise there is no reason to leave. It makes no sense for her to leave unless she is having an affair. That is the only thing that makes sense.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Lou, please please do not take our word for it! We could be some crazy paranoid internet wackos rather than a group of people who have seen thousands of such cases over the years and know all the signs. I implore you not to take anyone's word, but to do some extensive snooping on your own. The snooping that you did was not comprehensive enough to detect an affair.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Lou, please please do not take our word for it! We could be some crazy paranoid internet wackos rather than a group of people who have seen thousands of such cases over the years and know all the signs. I implore you not to take anyone's word, but to do some extensive snooping on your own. The snooping that you did was not comprehensive enough to detect an affair.
Why not hire a PI and prove us all wrong?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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It's been a while since I posted. We are putting the house on the market in the next 2-3 weeks. Hopefully it will be sold soon after. We are strapped for cash getting the house ready, but once it's sold, I'm hiring a PI. No new evidence or suspicions, but I want to put it to bed or confirm.

No major changes in our relationship. She did move out in late July. We have had contact most days, usually text. We've had a couple heart-warming conversations, just very friendly from both sides. I've been to her apt a few times, always regarding dropping off or picking up our daughter. But she has invited me to hangout for a bit a couple of times, including yesterday.


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hmmm, you're selling your house because you have completely separated your incomes and can't support two households.
I know what that's like, it's called divorce.


Lou, you mention above that you can't do plan B because there is no affair. I don't believe that's the case. I think this way of living is extremely unhealthy for you and your child. I think it's perfectly reasonable to say something to the effect of " can't live like this anymore, this is not the type of marriage I want." "I will agree to work on the marriage when you are ready, and until then I can have no more contact with you".

You are in the advantageous position that she moved out. You are holding a lot of cards with that.

could you read up more on Plan B and see if you can modify it to your circumstances? Remember, it's not a threat or an ultimatum. She has made a choice, you are making yours.

Right now you are giving her the best of both worlds and paying a huge price. Also demonstrating a poor example of marriage to your kid. It's got to stop somewhere and it wont if you keep going this way -- she's perfectly happy with this sick arrangement.

Added benefit -- if she IS having an affair, Plan B will have a massive impact on that. she will have to rely on Mr. Wonderful for everything and find out he's probably not so wonderful. (remember john/sue in SAA).

to wifey: "move home when you are done living in fantasy land, until then it's too painful for me to live this way". You can/should draw up a legal separation/visitation schedule for the kid.
through this process I wouldn't even mention divorce, this is not about divorce. it's about saving the marriage.
\
MB colleagues: where am I going wrong here?

opt


Me: 43 y.o. BFWH, D-day 11/11/09 (NC since 9/01)
Divorce from WW final 9/16/10.
Current Status: MB-based Marriage to Nature Girl 12/8/12 (first date on 12/11/10)
Mine: S(16), D(11)
NatureGirls: S(23), D(21)
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I would love some more perspective on this. That would be a huge step so I'd need to consider it very carefully. FYI, 6 weeks into PI, no sign of A, either from their perspective or mine. I know it could take time to find that, but at this point I'm operating like there isn't one.

I don't know how much I've discussed it here, but she is extremely depressed. She's struggled with it for years, but it is at an all-time low. She can't eat enough and is losing weight, even though she is already at an optimal weight. She's trying to exercise to help with the depression, but she can't eat enough calories to sustain the exercise and normal body function. I know it's not my problem to fix, and I get the feeling our M has no chance until she gets it somewhat under control. Any perspective on a depressed WW?


D2
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7 month A revealed 12/31/14 (OM ended it)
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btw, reading back through this thread, several of you suggested that her "figuring it out" was deciding on another man. I called a suspected OM back in June to tell him to stop texting my W so much (a member of her class group, who typically texted about school projects...excessively). I truly believe she developed feelings for him April-June, and that played a huge factor in the ILYBNILWY bomb. Is it possible he was kind of leading her on with all of the texting without realizing the seriousness of it until I called him out on it? She said he called her to "have a discussion about their communication" after I called him. I'm no longer around her or her phone, but all indications is that it severely tapered off after that. PI so far has not found evidence of them hanging out outside of school, which was happening a lot before that (in groups). Also, she was supposed to host a party with 3-4 people, including suspected OM, at her apt in August. She was very excited about it. She never told me, but PI said that the party didn't happen - she was alone all night. Is it possible that the suspected OM pulled back from her and now she is left without anyone?

I say all of this because I was a suspected OM last year. I had become very friendly with a woman at work. I knew it was dangerous, so I tried to keep my W and her H informed of it, but there were still some secrets with some too-intimate convos. I didn't realize how dangerous of a path I was walking until the H told me he had suspected us of having an A. I was shocked, and my relationship with OW was never the same, due to me backing off. I wonder if the same thing happened with this OM.


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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Did you ever email Dr. Harley?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Do you still have contact with your OW?

It would have been nice to know, when asking for advice on your wife moving out, being depressed, etc. that you yourself had just engaged in an affair. You provided half the story and expected accurate advice.

FYI the advice would have been the same. Your wife fell out of love with you after your own infidelity, engaged in infidelity herself, and now you are separated and she is very depressed.

Plan A absolutely applies here, by the way.

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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Did you ever email Dr. Harley?
No. I must have missed this comment. I will email today. Thank you


D2
Me 30
W 30
ILYBNILWY 6/1/14
Separated 7/31/14
7 month A revealed 12/31/14 (OM ended it)
Joined: Jun 2014
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Originally Posted by unwritten
Do you still have contact with your OW?

It would have been nice to know, when asking for advice on your wife moving out, being depressed, etc. that you yourself had just engaged in an affair. You provided half the story and expected accurate advice.

FYI the advice would have been the same. Your wife fell out of love with you after your own infidelity, engaged in infidelity herself, and now you are separated and she is very depressed.

Plan A absolutely applies here, by the way.


I have only talked to her once in the last year, and that was because she came into the office to visit everyone. Honestly I wouldn't be worried if she moved back to our company - that EA is dead to me.

I did not intend to keep it from anyone here. I honestly didn't realize it was an EA until well after reading HNHN and listening to some broadcasts. I don't think my WAW had an EA directly because I did...she didn't even know about it until I told her about it this summer, after BD. But I do know that it helped lead to it as it made me even more emotionally distant from my W. But I was so negligent of her ENs before that I think she would have reached this point regardless. I do think the separation had aggravated her depression . Another factor I haven't mentioned is that we had a miscarriage in Jan 2014. I healed from it quickly, but she is a slow healer, and I think it is still raw for her.

Regarding Plan A...by all indications, the EA ended 1-2 months ago. She is now S but not in any EA or PA that I know of, to the extent of my abilities and finances. But she has not given any indication for pursuit of reconciliation. So no POJA. Do I sit on the default POJA position: do nothing until an enthusiastic agreement is made? Or is it Plan B time until she comes to me about reconciliation (or divorce)?


D2
Me 30
W 30
ILYBNILWY 6/1/14
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7 month A revealed 12/31/14 (OM ended it)
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Originally Posted by Lou519
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Did you ever email Dr. Harley?
No. I must have missed this comment. I will email today. Thank you
Let us know when you hear back from him.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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