My wife is not in love with me.

She never was� even on our wedding day she was not in love with me.

I feel very betrayed because of that. She says she *did* "love me", but was not in love.

We bought the big Marriage Builders course in March of this year, and we were "Gung-Ho" about it for a while, and things improved between us� for a few months. Some of you (including Marcos) saw and commented on how happy you were that we were improving.

I just keep feeling defeated all the time though� things will be good for a couple days, then my wife will just seem to lose interest in our marriage. She uses �generic� terms to describe why she is feeling what she is feeling (which I don�t like) and after some lengthy discussion to find out what the specifics actually are, it will sometimes be because she is thinking of something that happened months ago, and that will make her go into a �funk� for days, or sometimes even weeks (usually not just that one memory, but a combination of things).

I feel VERY punished by this.
I am putting forth so much time and effort to try to keep depositing love units, and it seems to me like my wife is making withdrawals (writing fraudulent checks?) on her own love bank balance because she keeps going back to memories of things that happened in the past and it ruins the �here and now� for both of us.

I *DO* get frustrated by this behavior. I sometimes live with a woman who seems like a dream wife for a day or two, and then her happiness will get derailed by something from the past�. It leaves me with the feeling of having just been hit by a Greyhound bus!

I also am frustrated by her unwillingness to �put back into� this marriage.
For many years, I let my �Giver� do a lot for my wife and kids, even though my �taker� was wondering why marriage �was so very different than what I thought it would be�� and then I just got tired of living with the feeling of �being used� all the time, and my �taker� started to show up more often (and this really made our marriage sour). Even back then, if I complained about something in our marriage or about the kids it was dismissed by her as me being �too sensitive� or �not understanding enough�. I will admit that I did the same thing at times to her as well. (Neither one of us knew what a DJ was back then.)

NOW - I feel like in many ways I am �Plan A�ing� my wife and really doing what I can to make her happy, overcome my bad habits, eliminate love busters (clean the back yard!), and meet her emotional needs� but I just don�t get much back in return. I get a little back � but it is crumbs. I feel like my �Giver� is working 100% and it is really starting to create a lot of resentment between us because I feel my �Taker� is being very, very neglected.

Dr. Harley has given my wife some really good advice on how to improve our relationship with each other - - but it seems to me she just doesn�t seem to want to implement those ideas (except for once in a great while I see a glimmer). She says it is �because her love bank balance is so low�. But she says that about a lot of things� and it seems to me like she tries to use it as an excuse to not do her part. Maybe I am wrong and it sounds like a DJ on my part to say that, but I sure DO feel it. I can�t always tell for sure if it is a genuine response, or because she just doesn�t feel like putting in any effort into making this marriage work out (and at those times I feel very used by her after she says it).

When I make complaints in a very respectful and safe manner, they are generally ignored and her behavior continues on the same path it has been. This makes my inner �taker� scream even louder. In those times, it becomes very difficult to remain calm because I feel so used, taken for granted, and unappreciated. I still struggle with AO�s � but they are not severe like they once were (I was once a stark-raving mad man, not any more). I did have an AO this morning when I confronted her about a secret bank account she created and then never told me about, and she just ignored me instead of telling me why she did it. I told her that since she knew that would be an act that would definitely hurt me, that she was deliberately trying to sabotage our marriage.

Some more background: My wife considers if I raise my voice even one decibel that it�s an AO � and then I feel punished by her for getting frustrated (she says if it get frustrated that is an AO also - I do not agree) about whatever issue it was I was dealing with. This action from her stresses me out to no end - - I HONESTLY feel like a dog that gets whipped because of any small mistake I make. I just want to cower away and be left alone.

So�
1) Is there anything I can say or do that will make my wife respond to the effort I put into this marriage? It REALLY hurts when she doesn�t even notice when I have done something extraordinary or special (sometimes I ask her and she did notice, but she chose not to say anything about it). It also REALLY hurts me when she feels like all the efforts I put into this marriage aren�t doing us any good. It feels like I'm trying to push a rope.

2) Is there anything I can do or say that will help her to not linger on the hurts of the past? We seem do be doing GREAT at times� only to be followed by weeks of misery. I seriously think this is partially a spiritual attack and I have been trying to pray this bondage off of her. I want to do anything I can to stop this from happening.

3) Back to the subject line � What needs to happen for me to not feel like I am constantly in a losing battle? I feel like I should get some sort of Nobel Peace Prize for putting so much work into saving this marriage, only to see nearly no reward, or fruits of may labor. If we had never had any problems in the past haunting us today, I am certain she would be very happy in this marriage right now.

I *DO* tell her that if I would only feel encouraged once in a while, or to not feel like I am being used/taken for granted - that this would really help me out and would cheer me on to be such a better man in everything I do (but it really doesn't happen).

4)I need honesty and I am not getting it at all. My wife acts so secret about everything she does around me� to the point that if I walk into the room and she�s on the computer, she closes the window INSTANTLY. I once caught her on Facebook chatting intimate aspects about our marriage to a guy named M*tt T*yl*r, and ever since that time she is super, super, super secret about her internet usage when I am around. Some of the times she is online is when I am at work, and often after I go to bed, so she �won�t be interrupted by me walking in the room� - - - and this really freaks me out. I wish she wouldn�t be so secretive about her online activity. Oh, and yes - this entire message is being �key-logged� and she knows all my usernames and passwords for everything.

Sir, STOP the angry outbursts!
Control yourself!

Sir,
Are you communicating with Dr. Harley and the MB online course coach regularly?

I have no excuses.
The reason why was because I am so tired of all the "secretiveness" and it wore me down to that point - but that is NOT an excuse.



No - I hate to bother the guy; I know he's so very busy. I debated about whether I should post here or to him. I figured I would talk through this with all of you first before I go to that next step.

Sandy emailed me last week to schedule a phone call, but I hadn't been able to because we were swamped at work last week.

Sir, You will need to make your marriage your priority.
Schedule the phone call and move forward!

But you know the MB formula, Ernie, and you should know that how she felt on her wedding day need not matter; you can get her to fall in love with you by meeting her ENs and avoiding all LBs. It's a simple mathematical formula and it works.

The problem is that if you do not know the specifics of her ENS, and how to fine tune the meeting of her ENs, and what your specific LBs are so that you can avoid them, you are working in the dark.

That's where your coach will help you. That is her job. You've paid for that and for the support of Dr H on the private forum or via your coach if you are in a crisis. Dr Harley isn't too busy and you should bother him; that is the service he offers, that you paid for.

I can see that you don't know what you've been doing wrong and that you're frustrated and at the end of your rope, but it's a mystery to me why you won't use your coach.

You are both correct. Getting our coach more involved and more often, will become a priority.

I have agreed to take a bona fide anger management class. I have asked my wife to also, as an act of good faith, to please work harder on being more open and honest with me, as that is huge emotional need of mine, and is VITAL for me to feel safe in this marriage.



Sigh. I do know this. Sometimes it just feels like such a huge uphill battle... In the mud.
Some days it takes so much strength to keep my chin up and press on I wonder if I still can. I'll take A.M. classes, work with our coach more, and keep improving my Plan A.

Thanks!!

But until you learn to not let your feelings control your actions, you won't be safe for your wife or children.

Yes, digging out of a major in-the-red love bank balance absolutely is like going uphill in the mud. I've been there. Without any helpful feedback or cooperation or sign of good faith from my wife. I couldn't even get her to kiss me good night!

So, given that it's a terrible situation, the question is, would you like to make a bad situation far, far, far worse? If so, have an angry outburst.

I think you need to realize that while you may not feel safe, she actually is not safe. She is not safe as long as you are having angry outbursts, and she is certainly not safe to be honest with you. All honesty ought to flow through your MB coach at this point, because you are not safe for her. You literally ARE not safe - she might hurt your feelings by being less than forthright with you, but you might physically hurt her or the children. So far as I know there is no danger that she is going to put you in the hospital. But I fear you definitely might do that to her. Men just like you (and me) do that every day, Ernie. Men who have never been physically violent before.

She will never be open and honest with you as long as you have angry outbursts! And it is ridiculous of you to expect her to.

You are not safe. You have promised to get anger management before. What's different this time?

Very, very, VERY true.

Dr. Harley loves nothing better than to help people learn how to have a good marriage. He's one of those lucky people in life whose job is also his calling.

I've heard him comment a time or two about how with some couples, in some circumstances, it's like trying to hold the marriage together with baling wire until they "get it." I suspect that a time or two, he felt that way about me! But you have shown and demonstrated that you can do this. You have also shown and demonstrated in about the worst way possible how much damage can be done by regressing.

I did that, too.

It takes longer than you thought it would for your wife's feelings toward you to change. It takes more accuracy in eliminating love busters than you thought it would. You're in a deeper hole than you thought you were.

It is also possible to dig out, but it is going to take more than you expected. And each slip will make that hole deeper.

You have to become somebody who doesn't have angry outbursts or get disrespectful, no matter what. Somebody who doesn't break the Marriage Builders rules even if he feels his wife isn't breaking the Marriage Builders rules.

If you want your wife to meet your emotional needs, then demands, disrespect, and anger are the exact opposite of what you want to be doing.

I suspect that this form of words is actually masking or minimising one or more HORRIBLE outbursts that frightened your wife.

If you raise your voice "even one decibel"?

Do you have an accurate way of measuring the number of decibels by which you raise your voice when you are angry?

Tell us what you did and said during that angry outburst about the bank account.

Not only did you have an AO that I suspect was more violent and frightening than you are admitting here, you told your wife what she knew and what she was deliberately trying to do to you. Way to DJ, Ernie. Way to win back your severely traumatised wife.

About the secret bank account:

I opened a solo bank account in 2003, immediately upon discovering my H's affair for the first time. Before I had even spoken to him about the affair, I drew the conclusion that he had met someone else and was planning to leave us. I didn't know much about affairs and it would be years before I found MB, but I knew that there was a good chance that he would drain our joint account when he left. I intended to get my salary paid into my solo account, but before I went back to work my H and I agreed to reconcile and I never followed through.

That bank account was consequently untouched for about another four years, until the bank wrote to tell me they were closing it unless I put some money into it. I transferred �50 into it and have never touched it since. (I cannot remember when, but long ago I told my H about the account and he sees all my financial statements, so it is not secret any more.)

Now, I know that there is no affair in your marriage and I am not claiming a similar motivation, but my point is that Elaina must have had a fear of the marriage ending when she opened that account. I suspect that, as I did, she left it open because your marriage is not yet stable. I don't think that she is money laundering or doing anything major with that account, but it's her insurance.

When you discovered the account, it was quite right for you to ask about it. However, there was no justification for your getting angry about her not answering your questions, and the accusation of her trying deliberately to sabotage your marriage makes no sense. You were just lashing out in anger because she would not answer your demanding questions.

You should be worried about the account. It's existence show that at some time, Elaina considered separating her finances from yours. However, getting angry and accusatory is the wrong response (it always is). The correct response, if you want to rebuild this marriage, is to work on your relationship with her so that she never needs to use the account.

Incidentally, have you given her full access to your bank accounts, and given her access to your payslip yet? I seem to remember that there was some financial secrecy of your own going on.

In fact, your AO over the bank account proves her continued need for it.

That is probably a very good thing for her to do. It's something you kind of have to deal with if you've abused your spouse. Just like how even though men are typically advised here not to leave their homes, that doesn't go for men who have been abusive or had affairs or addiction.

Grant her whatever level of escape she needs to feel secure and to know that she is not trapped here. If you ever stop making love busters and dig back out of the hole, her feelings will change and you will discover it's not an issue.

Not dismissing any of the AO or DJ Ernie has shown... but does this raise any flags in regards to OS relationship that could be an issue?

Ernie mentions "this message" being "key-logged". What about her activity on facebook and other? Maybe someone mentioned it and I missed it or maybe no-one sees this as an issue, but from all the reading I have done with all the responses on this forum I thought this would have been also pointed out as an area of concern... in addition to Ernie's own detrimental actions.

As a general rule, in marriage there should be no opportunity for a secret second life and/ or independent behavior.

I think Ernie is s*** stirring and knows that she isn't having an affair. If he really thought she was he would have said so before now. He would certainly have confronted Elaina about it and he would have told this forum and Dr Harley. He knows enough about MB not to have tried to fix the marriage with a stinking great affair in the middle of it.

He saw enough of this conversation to know that it was about the marriage and to know that man's name, so he must know the context of the discussion. I suspect that it wasn't an affair at all but a discussion with a lawyer.

I think he playing this card now as part of his "poor me" post. I think he knows he has behaved badly and is in danger of losing his wife, so he plays this accusation to turn the focus on to her.

If she is secretive about her internet activity it will be for her own protection. See my "bank account" post above, and the responses.

You guys know more of the history for sure... just something that I noticed and normally folks on MB forum would have jumped on it and said something... but like I said I don't know the full history.

I do think that Ernie is worried and frightened about the direction his marriage is taking, and Elaina's apparent unhappiness. I do think he has done a lot of work these past few months. I can see his posts to Dr Harley on the private forum and I think he genuinely wants his marriage to work. If he didn't, he could easily walk away, even with a shared 3 year old. People do it all the time. He isn't walking away.

The problem is that I also see manipulation behind some of his posts. I think that he comes to the public forum (he is different on the private forum) to tattle about Elaina and get her into trouble. "I lost my temper, but it was her fault!" "I lost my temper, but it was only a little bit!"

I think that if he came here genuinely for help to win Elaina round, and if he stuck to that monumental task unstintingly, his posts would sound different and like markos, he would see results in his marriage.