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I'm reminded of a post by HoldHerHand in another thread. That post is here: Stages of Intimate Conversation

I thought it was a really good description of how things can progress with an opposite sex friend through meeting the need for intimate conversation. After all, that's how we make friends in the first place, by having conversations with them.

Here are what I thought were the relevant parts of that post. Everything below was posted by HoldHerHand in the other thread but I pasted it here for easier reading. Hope that's OK!:


... I did some digging about conversation and intimacy. What I found helped in 2 ways; it reduced stress as to how "deep" intimate conversation is or is not, and it allowed us to know how and where to develop boundaries in conversations with people outside the marriage.

Just going to straight quote here instead of citing;


Quote
1.Clich�s - Clich�s are simple conversation starters such as, �Hello, how are you?� When these are handled with ease and grace, safety is generated and people are willing to go to the next level. If they feel judged, criticized or ridiculed they will go no further. People start here to see if it is safe to connect.


2.Facts - Facts can be personal or non-personal facts about the weather, sports, current events; whatever can be addressed in conversation without too much risk. Except in the case of know-it-alls, this is a great level for people to test whether a person is a safe conversationalist.


3.Opinions - The opinion level is the first level of vulnerability, marked by a person�s willingness to risk revealing something about who they are. This is often the level where conversations break down; where disagreements of opinion reveal inflexibility and intolerance. Conversely, if a person is willing to allow others to disagree without rejecting, ridiculing or punishing, the conversation can continue to the next level.


4.Hopes & Dreams - If we navigate safely through the level of opinions, people will often be willing to reveal what truly inspires them. Sharing hopes and dreams identifies what a person wants to become or how they ant to live. Being safe enough to entrust others with your dreams prepares you to connect at an even deeper level.


5.Feelings - When the environment is safe enough to be honest with our feelings, only then are we able to feel truly connected. Inviting someone else into our feelings, however, makes us feel vulnerable, and for most people is a difficult obstacle to overcome, depending on how accepting and validating their past experiences have been while sharing feelings with others.


6.Fears, Failures and Weaknesses - This level is uncomfortable for many of us because in our culture weakness is seen as a fault, and past sharing of one�s fears and failures may have been met with ridicule and rejection rather than acceptance and support. Conversely when openness on this level is met with care and nurturing, real healing and growth can occur.


7.Needs - Sharing our needs in a way that is vulnerable (not demanding) is a sign of maturity, as is the ability to truly listen to one another. Sometimes our conversations lack meaning because we fail to listen or fail to ask the right questions. We fail to listen because we don�t know how to subjugate our own needs in order to meet the needs of others.

Quote
1.Clich� - How are you?
- What have you been up to lately?

2.Facts -
Non-personal
- What was the score of the game?
- What is the weather forecast?

Personal

- What did you do today?
- What have you learned recently?
- What have you been reading lately?
- What is your favorite color, food, song etc.?


3.Opinions
-What are your preferences concerning�?
-What are your beliefs about�?
-What do you think about�?

4.Hopes and Dreams
-If you could live any way you liked, how would you like to live?
-If you could live anywhere in the world, where would you like to live?
-What goals do you have for your life?
-What area of study would you like to become an expert in?
-If you could be famous for something, what would you like to be famous for?
-What would you like written on your tombstone? In your obituary?
-Who would you like to help? How would you help them if you could?
-What one thing would make you truly happy?
-Who are the people you�d like to learn from in life?
-What personal qualities do you hope to develop in the future?
-What skills do you hope to develop in your lifetime?
-What do you dream about being the best in the world at doing?
-What are 5 things you dream about having?
-What are 5 things you dream about doing?
-What are 5 things you dream about being?
-Who are 5 people or groups you dream about helping?
-What would you do if you knew you could not fail at it?

5.Feelings
-When in our life have you felt special to others?
-Who in your life made you feel safe, loved, accepted? How did they do that?
-Who in your life made you feel the most rejected, devalued, abandoned, invisible?
-What are you most passionate about?
-What do you feel about:
-Your relationship to God?
-Your most significant friendship?
-Your relationship to your parents?
-Your relationship to co-workers?
-Your reputation in the community?

-How secure do you feel in your life right now? (Why, or Why not?)
-How significant do you feel in your ability to contribute to others, to your community, to the world? (In what way? Why, or Why not?)
-Do you feel like you are becoming the person you want to be?
-Do you feel like you belong?
-Do you feel competent in your ability to build something of value?
-What are the biggest hurts have you experienced in the past?


6.Fears, Failures, Weaknesses
-What makes you feel like you don�t measure up?
-What makes you feel like you are unlovable?
-What do you think would make others reject you?
-What are some lies you�ve been told in the past?
-What do you feel you must hide from others out of fear that they would reject you?
-What makes you feel ignored?
-What makes you feel rejected?
-What makes you feel humiliated?
-What makes you feel incompetent?
-What makes you feel like a failure?
-What makes you feel inadequate?
-What is your biggest fear in life?

7.Needs
Spirit � what do you need to thrive spiritually?
� what do you need to thrive in your relationships?
Mind � what do you need to learn and grow in to thrive mentally?
Strength � what do you need thrive physically?
When have you experienced great joy?
Describe what you think constitutes true happiness?
How do you help others experience joy?
What do you need in order to be secure?
What do you need in order to be safe?
What do you need in order to be significant?
What do you need in order to be competent?
What do you need in order to be powerful?
What do you need in order to belong?
What do you need to be clear about?
What do you need in order to build something of lasting value?
What do you need to know God better?
What do you need to feel special to others?
What do you need in order to feel like you are understood?
What do you need in order to do something great?
What do you need in order to achieve something that will last?
What recognition do you need?


These are my thoughts concerning IC and the progresson through these stages;

At stage 3 you are in intimate conversation. In stage 2, you are opening the door. These 2 stages, in regard to the friends of good conversation, are informing and investigating your spouse. These should be daily aims in conversation with your spouse. Good conversation in levels two and three aid in progressing to levels 4 and 5.

Levels 6 and 7 are the deepest, but aren't particularly going to be constant, daily conversation. They are, however, where you are going to be when you communicate your needs and/or complaints.

So, for the most part, hitting 4/5 during UA time should be fulfilling IC.


On boundaries;

Conversation with people of the opposite sex should probably never progress past level 2. At level 5 you are looking at a high risk for LB$ deposits and the lure of infidelity.

Last edited by FightTheFight; 09/10/14 04:01 PM.

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Originally Posted by Bellevue
It is easy to look at the list of dangers that Dr. Harley wrote and say to yourself "But that does not apply to me! I love my spouse! The Other Person is in love with their spouse!" Or any number of rationalizations for why you are exempt from that list. Opposite sex friendships are like flypaper.
My ex had a friendship with a woman that I supported for a long time. It became entrenched. The woman's husband supported it too. When the red flags started waving, I let my ex talk me out of my feelings. We're divorced. Opposite sex friendships are poison to your marriage.

I have contacted Dr Harley about changing the article to make it crystal clear. People who are in favor of opposite sex friendships will ALWAYS find a way to make sure it doesn't apply to them. If the very definition of "friendship" is a private personal relationship, then NO opposite sex friendships would be appropriate. Therefore, what is allowed are acquaintances, IMO.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by FightTheFight
I'm reminded of a post by HoldHerHand in another thread. That post is here: Stages of Intimate Conversation

I thought it was a really good description of how things can progress with an opposite sex friend through meeting the need for intimate conversation. After all, that's how we make friends in the first place, by having conversations with them.

Here are what I thought were the relevant parts of that post. Everything below was posted by HoldHerHand in the other thread but I pasted it here for easier reading. Hope that's OK!:


... I did some digging about conversation and intimacy. What I found helped in 2 ways; it reduced stress as to how "deep" intimate conversation is or is not, and it allowed us to know how and where to develop boundaries in conversations with people outside the marriage.

Just going to straight quote here instead of citing;


Quote
1.Clich�s - Clich�s are simple conversation starters such as, �Hello, how are you?� When these are handled with ease and grace, safety is generated and people are willing to go to the next level. If they feel judged, criticized or ridiculed they will go no further. People start here to see if it is safe to connect.


2.Facts - Facts can be personal or non-personal facts about the weather, sports, current events; whatever can be addressed in conversation without too much risk. Except in the case of know-it-alls, this is a great level for people to test whether a person is a safe conversationalist.


3.Opinions - The opinion level is the first level of vulnerability, marked by a person�s willingness to risk revealing something about who they are. This is often the level where conversations break down; where disagreements of opinion reveal inflexibility and intolerance. Conversely, if a person is willing to allow others to disagree without rejecting, ridiculing or punishing, the conversation can continue to the next level.


4.Hopes & Dreams - If we navigate safely through the level of opinions, people will often be willing to reveal what truly inspires them. Sharing hopes and dreams identifies what a person wants to become or how they ant to live. Being safe enough to entrust others with your dreams prepares you to connect at an even deeper level.


5.Feelings - When the environment is safe enough to be honest with our feelings, only then are we able to feel truly connected. Inviting someone else into our feelings, however, makes us feel vulnerable, and for most people is a difficult obstacle to overcome, depending on how accepting and validating their past experiences have been while sharing feelings with others.


6.Fears, Failures and Weaknesses - This level is uncomfortable for many of us because in our culture weakness is seen as a fault, and past sharing of one�s fears and failures may have been met with ridicule and rejection rather than acceptance and support. Conversely when openness on this level is met with care and nurturing, real healing and growth can occur.


7.Needs - Sharing our needs in a way that is vulnerable (not demanding) is a sign of maturity, as is the ability to truly listen to one another. Sometimes our conversations lack meaning because we fail to listen or fail to ask the right questions. We fail to listen because we don�t know how to subjugate our own needs in order to meet the needs of others.

Quote
1.Clich� - How are you?
- What have you been up to lately?

2.Facts -
Non-personal
- What was the score of the game?
- What is the weather forecast?

Personal

- What did you do today?
- What have you learned recently?
- What have you been reading lately?
- What is your favorite color, food, song etc.?


3.Opinions
-What are your preferences concerning�?
-What are your beliefs about�?
-What do you think about�?

4.Hopes and Dreams
-If you could live any way you liked, how would you like to live?
-If you could live anywhere in the world, where would you like to live?
-What goals do you have for your life?
-What area of study would you like to become an expert in?
-If you could be famous for something, what would you like to be famous for?
-What would you like written on your tombstone? In your obituary?
-Who would you like to help? How would you help them if you could?
-What one thing would make you truly happy?
-Who are the people you�d like to learn from in life?
-What personal qualities do you hope to develop in the future?
-What skills do you hope to develop in your lifetime?
-What do you dream about being the best in the world at doing?
-What are 5 things you dream about having?
-What are 5 things you dream about doing?
-What are 5 things you dream about being?
-Who are 5 people or groups you dream about helping?
-What would you do if you knew you could not fail at it?

5.Feelings
-When in our life have you felt special to others?
-Who in your life made you feel safe, loved, accepted? How did they do that?
-Who in your life made you feel the most rejected, devalued, abandoned, invisible?
-What are you most passionate about?
-What do you feel about:
-Your relationship to God?
-Your most significant friendship?
-Your relationship to your parents?
-Your relationship to co-workers?
-Your reputation in the community?

-How secure do you feel in your life right now? (Why, or Why not?)
-How significant do you feel in your ability to contribute to others, to your community, to the world? (In what way? Why, or Why not?)
-Do you feel like you are becoming the person you want to be?
-Do you feel like you belong?
-Do you feel competent in your ability to build something of value?
-What are the biggest hurts have you experienced in the past?


6.Fears, Failures, Weaknesses
-What makes you feel like you don�t measure up?
-What makes you feel like you are unlovable?
-What do you think would make others reject you?
-What are some lies you�ve been told in the past?
-What do you feel you must hide from others out of fear that they would reject you?
-What makes you feel ignored?
-What makes you feel rejected?
-What makes you feel humiliated?
-What makes you feel incompetent?
-What makes you feel like a failure?
-What makes you feel inadequate?
-What is your biggest fear in life?

7.Needs
Spirit � what do you need to thrive spiritually?
� what do you need to thrive in your relationships?
Mind � what do you need to learn and grow in to thrive mentally?
Strength � what do you need thrive physically?
When have you experienced great joy?
Describe what you think constitutes true happiness?
How do you help others experience joy?
What do you need in order to be secure?
What do you need in order to be safe?
What do you need in order to be significant?
What do you need in order to be competent?
What do you need in order to be powerful?
What do you need in order to belong?
What do you need to be clear about?
What do you need in order to build something of lasting value?
What do you need to know God better?
What do you need to feel special to others?
What do you need in order to feel like you are understood?
What do you need in order to do something great?
What do you need in order to achieve something that will last?
What recognition do you need?

This post is very timely; I was literally looking for conversation topics with single women and this is great.

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So what if the opposite friendship existed for yrs before your relationship with you current partner? Should you just cut off the friendship? Doesn't to make sense to me.

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Originally Posted by llw14
So what if the opposite friendship existed for yrs before your relationship with you current partner? Should you just cut off the friendship? Doesn't to make sense to me.

Since affairs almost always start with an opposite sex friendship, allowing these friendships to fade is crucial to the marriage.

Dr. Harley strongly advocates every married couple spending a minimum of 15 hours each week together on dates outside the house without friends or children along. This doesn't leave a whole lot of time for outside friendships.

In a great marriage, the spouses should be each others best friends and this makes deeply personal friendships outside of the marriage unnecessary for personal happiness.


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Originally Posted by llw14
So what if the opposite friendship existed for yrs before your relationship with you current partner? Should you just cut off the friendship? Doesn't to make sense to me.
By "partner", do you mean "spouse"? Because Marriage Builders was devised by Dr Harley to create and sustain fulfilling marriages for life.

If you've been reading this and other threads about this subject you should by now understand that such a friendship is a threat to your marriage.

Nobody is obliged to do anything that does not make sense to them. The guidance and the experiences that this forum provides are there for you to take or leave. However, if you've read the thousands of threads in the forum Surviving an Affair you will see that a high proportion of affairs start from friendships. A person may reject Dr Harley's advice and continue their opposite sex friendship if his advice doesn't make sense to them, but that is not what we with experience of this programme - and many of us with experience of affairs in our marriages - would ever recommend.


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Originally Posted by llw14
So what if the opposite friendship existed for yrs before your relationship with you current partner? Should you just cut off the friendship? Doesn't to make sense to me.

Yes, Sir.
In fact many wedding vows contain the words "Forsaking all others"

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Originally Posted by llw14
So what if the opposite friendship existed for yrs before your relationship with you current partner? Should you just cut off the friendship? Doesn't to make sense to me.

Doesn't make any sense to jeopardize your marriage with such a friendship. If a "friendship" is more important than your marriage, then you are not marriage material in the first place.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I do think the word 'friend' can be confusing to some as to what level of friendship is being discussed. It's a badly misused word sometimes.

I went from thinking that the rule for no opposite sex friendships was crazy to thinking I couldn't exchange the odd pleasant and casual word with a male coworker.

I know that sounds ridiculous - but I'd always thought OS friendships were fine until I got burned. When I took on the 'crazy' rule - I went too far.

Another poster was similarly OTT and it was Melody Lane correcting her - saying of course you could be pleasantly friendly while keeping boundaries, before I got it. Then Dr H's revised article cleared up a lot more for me. I was stunned to read they had kept hold of OS childhood friends but it was all in the way they did it.

As a couple they both look out for their friends and neighbours of both genders, but they do it appropriately and with boundaries.

I do think the priority is caution and warning people off opposite sex friendships. It's better to be safe than sorry.

I just think once that's achieved that there's room to explain too that it won't make you any less pleasant or sociable in surface interactions. That if you do want the best for OS childhood friends and men in your circle - it's being a friend to NOT get too close once you're married.

When I first was hurt by an opposite sex friend to the marriage I could easily have voted for a very gender segregated world, as other countries do. That's actually what I thought the old OS article was advocating and I don't think that misconception helps MB.

Ours isn't a culture where men and women are segregated so an understanding of 'How will that work?' is quite helpful, I think.



What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by llw14
So what if the opposite friendship existed for yrs before your relationship with you current partner? Should you just cut off the friendship? Doesn't to make sense to me.

A lot of people agree with you.

But most people don't have happy marriages.

Of the people that do have happy marriages, this is one of the things that they do.


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Originally Posted by indiegirl
I do think the word 'friend' can be confusing to some as to what level of friendship is being discussed. It's a badly misused word sometimes.

I went from thinking that the rule for no opposite sex friendships was crazy to thinking I couldn't exchange the odd pleasant and casual word with a male coworker.

I know that sounds ridiculous - but I'd always thought OS friendships were fine until I got burned. When I took on the 'crazy' rule - I went too far.

Another poster was similarly OTT and it was Melody Lane correcting her - saying of course you could be pleasantly friendly while keeping boundaries, before I got it. Then Dr H's revised article cleared up a lot more for me. I was stunned to read they had kept hold of OS childhood friends but it was all in the way they did it.

As a couple they both look out for their friends and neighbours of both genders, but they do it appropriately and with boundaries.

I do think the priority is caution and warning people off opposite sex friendships. It's better to be safe than sorry.

I just think once that's achieved that there's room to explain too that it won't make you any less pleasant or sociable in surface interactions. That if you do want the best for OS childhood friends and men in your circle - it's being a friend to NOT get too close once you're married.

When I first was hurt by an opposite sex friend to the marriage I could easily have voted for a very gender segregated world, as other countries do. That's actually what I thought the old OS article was advocating and I don't think that misconception helps MB.

Ours isn't a culture where men and women are segregated so an understanding of 'How will that work?' is quite helpful, I think.
I would like to ask Indiegirl some follow up questions to her post, but should I ask this in a different thread as I am not the OP or leave it hear as it is all related to Boundaries of Opposite sex relationships.

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Originally Posted by MySacredMarriage
I would like to ask Indiegirl some follow up questions to her post, but should I ask this in a different thread as I am not the OP or leave it hear as it is all related to Boundaries of Opposite sex relationships.

I think it is perfectly fine to post it here as it does apply to the original post and I am curious myself.

IMHO opposite sex friends when you are married is just a no no period. There is no kind of sort of or whatever.

We all speak to the OS on a daily basis more than likely but saying "hello, how are you and your family doing", listening and then going on about your business with that person is about as far as it should be.

I have worked at the same company for 18 years and I do not think any member of the OS would call me rude or unsocial or nasty but I cannot tell you anything personal about any member of the OS that works here unless it was in a group conversation that it was said.

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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by llw14
So what if the opposite friendship existed for yrs before your relationship with you current partner? Should you just cut off the friendship? Doesn't to make sense to me.

A lot of people agree with you.

But most people don't have happy marriages.

Of the people that do have happy marriages, this is one of the things that they do.


So true - it's a question of priorities. I used to wonder why my parents didn't have many friends AT ALL of any gender compared to other people's parents. My parents are still happily married and still each others' favourite companion.

Originally Posted by MySacredMarriage
I would like to ask Indiegirl some follow up questions to her post, but should I ask this in a different thread as I am not the OP or leave it hear as it is all related to Boundaries of Opposite sex relationships.


If it's to do with the OP's question here, otherwise start another thread. All I was saying here is that when the concepts are very new, almost revolutionary, it can be hard to understand them just off one article. He makes it really easy for us to follow complex psychology - but you have to put some time into understanding the program too.



What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by indiegirl
If it's to do with the OP's question here, otherwise start another thread. All I was saying here is that when the concepts are very new, almost revolutionary, it can be hard to understand them just off one article. He makes it really easy for us to follow complex psychology - but you have to put some time into understanding the program too.

It makes me sad to hear anyone say that not having OS friends when you are married is a new, almost revolutionary concept.

I thought that way long long long before I ever came to MB, it is not new or almost revolutionary to me, it is natural, you only need one OS sex friend, your spouse......

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I wish I had too. It would have saved me a lot of grief.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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I think what is not new or revolutionary is the *instinct* to not want to share your spouse in any kind of intimate way with someone of the OS.

I think what has changed is the way society views it. Now OS friendships are the norm, there are even terms used to fondly discuss these relationships like 'work wife'. Married people with boundaries are the ones seen with the issues, not the other way around. Sad.

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Originally Posted by unwritten
I think what has changed is the way society views it. Now OS friendships are the norm, there are even terms used to fondly discuss these relationships like 'work wife'. Married people with boundaries are the ones seen with the issues, not the other way around. Sad.

OMG so true, I can't stand it and my children do think I am crazy

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Originally Posted by unwritten
I think what is not new or revolutionary is the *instinct* to not want to share your spouse in any kind of intimate way with someone of the OS.

I think what has changed is the way society views it. Now OS friendships are the norm, there are even terms used to fondly discuss these relationships like 'work wife'. Married people with boundaries are the ones seen with the issues, not the other way around. Sad.


This sums it up for me. I always had that 'instinct', and in reality my 'male friends' were actually just my husband's friends and boundaries were pretty good.

However I fell like a sucker for the new terminology. My instincts didn't match the words I used. Everyone in my circle of aquaintanceships referred to each other as friends. The men were my 'friends', the women were my husband's 'friends' - in spite of the fact no real, close discussions were being had across genders. Not even phone numbers were exchanged between OS members. I think that was instinct.

However the term 'friend' I think made my husband feel extra responsible for supporting his friend's widow. Whereas in the past he would have conducted the 'friendship' through her husband; he now contacted her directly. He never had before; not even when they worked together and were both single.

Perhaps it is really is time to reclaim that word 'acquaintance' and ditch the phoney idea we are friends with everyone.

I am just slightly fearful we are going to be talking a different language to many people out there. Even people out there with good instincts have grown up watching 'Friends' and think that's what it should look like.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Joined: Jun 2011
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Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
Originally Posted by unwritten
I think what has changed is the way society views it. Now OS friendships are the norm, there are even terms used to fondly discuss these relationships like 'work wife'. Married people with boundaries are the ones seen with the issues, not the other way around. Sad.

OMG so true, I can't stand it and my children do think I am crazy


I remember thinking my parents were crazy!


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Acquaintances should be enough for OS relationships. I've had men friends who distanced themselves once they got married. I never pushed to continue the relationships. I didn't really "get it" until our marriage was affected by my ex's OS friendship. Their contact was at least 14 hours a week by phone. There was one on one lunches work related and some dinner and movies, not work related. I wasn't worried until it was too late.
Just saying you are absolutely right.


Belle, Domestic Goddess
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