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BOHICA Offline OP
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Hello All,

New to the board, just found MB and have been lurking for the past few days.

WW and I are currently in R and it's been going fairly well for the past 3 or 4 months. DDay#1 was 10/2010 (EA) and DDay#2 was 5/2013 (EA/PA). I worked with a great Christian counselor for the first 12 months after DDay#2 and was able to come to a place of forgiveness for both her and her AP. However at this point in the game I am having a most difficult time in regaining trust.

She has changed job locations and implemented NC fairly soon after discovery. I have access to phone, email, etc. Guess there is always the possibility of a burner phone and hidden email addresses. Changed her cell phone number. Of course, what I find to be one of my biggest hang ups on the trust issue is that it was I that had to suggest these requirements and fight for some of them to be implemented. Perhaps had she initiated these actions and not fought me on several of them I would be in a better place to resume trusting. I dunno.......

Any advice/suggestions? Is it just something that takes a hell of a lot more time than I have currently given it?

Thanks in advance!


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Originally Posted By: BOHICA
Any advice/suggestions? Is it just something that takes a hell of a lot more time than I have currently given it?

Thanks in advance!


Are you snooping on her every move? It sounds like there are some big gaping holes in her life that are making you nervous. Since she had TWO affairs at work, has she changed the work environment? Does she stil work with men? Has she changed her boundaries around men?

It shouldn't take more than 2 years to really feel at peace if she has really changed her habits.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Bohica,

Have the two OM been exposed? You need to talk with their wives, girlfriends, family, and especially their bosses and personnel at work. Your WW has to learn there are consequences to her affair one of which is exposure of the OM.

Given that your WW had two affairs, and there may be more, you should get a polygraph for WW, and a DNA test for your children.

BOHICA pretty funny, "bend over here it comes again"?

God Bless
Gamma

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BOHICA Offline OP
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Hi Melody,

First, thanks for your response. It has been a difficult road and I have confided in very few people. This has resulted in isolation but I have done it for what I believe to be good reasons. I prefer to only discuss with people who have been through something similar or have a deep spirituality/faith.

No, I am not snooping her every move as I don't won't to live life doing that. I guess the way I see it, is that if I have to snoop her every move, what is the point of being married?

The biggest gaping hole to me has just been the lack of empathy from day 1. She has improved some on it but it is totally not natural. She still gets defensive when I bring something up if I'm having a rough day. The valleys have gotten much less deep and the peaks have gotten higher and there is much more distance between them nowadays. The rough days are few and far between now, but it still bothers me that she's not more understanding. Like I say, it has improved, but maybe not to my expectations (which for all I know may be out of kilter).......

Work environment has NOT changed. Still with same company, just switched job locations. Industry is primarily male. She has changed her boundaries around men, at least as far as I see it. I am obviously not at work with her so cannot speak as to her actions while at work. I do know that all the texts from men have stopped as well as the phone calls (at least to her cell). She used to have zero boundaries, receiving texts and calls from all sorts of other guys from the workplace. Some were work related, some not.

She sought very little counseling. We saw one together for about 4 sessions and neither of us really cared for her. Then I started IC with my Christian counselor. She eventually saw another counselor for 3 or 4 visits and that was the end of it. There have been some good changes, i.e. her boundaries around men, not giving her number out to members of the opposite sex, no more lunch dates with members of the opposite sex, etc. However, I just still have a serious issue believing her and trusting her.

Thanks again and my apologies for rambling.


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BOHICA Offline OP
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Hey Gamma,

Yes, you nailed the acronym!

No exposure to significant others of AP's as there were none. Imagine that, two stand up dudes such as themselves!! Did not expose at work, probably my bad here from what all I am reading.

No polygraph and no DNA testing. I did get tested for STD's and came back clean, praise God! Will definitely consider the PG and DNA testing, damn, that ain't nice to think about. Although, looking at both kids, it would be hard to deny that they're not mine. Guess you never know though. Wow.

Thanks, Gamma, God Bless you.


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Originally Posted By: BOHICA
Hi Melody,

First, thanks for your response. It has been a difficult road and I have confided in very few people. This has resulted in isolation but I have done it for what I believe to be good reasons. I prefer to only discuss with people who have been through something similar or have a deep spirituality/faith.

No, I am not snooping her every move as I don't won't to live life doing that. I guess the way I see it, is that if I have to snoop her every move, what is the point of being married?


But you have already chosen to be married, haven't you? Snooping will help you trust her. It will build your trust immensely if you can see what she is doing when she thinks you are not looking. You already know you have to snoop given her 2 past affairs.

Snooping would give you peace of mind and it would also help you hold her accountable. You can't hold her accountable if you don't know what she is doing.

Quote:
he biggest gaping hole to me has just been the lack of empathy from day 1.


Empathy does not create trust and it is very rare to see empathy from a wayward wife. That is not a gaping hole because your marriage can recover without it. A gaping hole would be part of her life in which she could conduct a secret life or having opposite sex friendships, social media, etc.

Quote:
She has improved some on it but it is totally not natural. She still gets defensive when I bring something up if I'm having a rough day.


What do you bring up that causes a defensive reaction? Can you give a specific example?

Quote:
Work environment has NOT changed. Still with same company, just switched job locations. Industry is primarily male. She has changed her boundaries around men, at least as far as I see it. I am obviously not at work with her so cannot speak as to her actions while at work. I do know that all the texts from men have stopped as well as the phone calls (at least to her cell). She used to have zero boundaries, receiving texts and calls from all sorts of other guys from the workplace. Some were work related, some not.


That is troublesome that she works in the same environment. It is pretty hard to trust her when she is in the same environment. Even though she changed work locations, wouldn't that put her in contact with the OM at the occasional company meeting?

Quote:
She sought very little counseling. We saw one together for about 4 sessions and neither of us really cared for her. Then I started IC with my Christian counselor. She eventually saw another counselor for 3 or 4 visits and that was the end of it. There have been some good changes, i.e. her boundaries around men, not giving her number out to members of the opposite sex, no more lunch dates with members of the opposite sex, etc. However, I just still have a serious issue believing her and trusting her.


You would benefit immensely from the book Survviing an Affair. It gives you a plan for recovery after an affair. One of the first things is to go through an affair checklist:

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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BOHICA Offline OP
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I snooped quite a bit in the beginning, monitoring calls, texts on her cell, scanning phone records, etc. Everything looked on the up and up. There is no way for me to monitor what she does on her work computer or work phone.

As far as the empathy goes, I feel that one who has none, does not truly know how to love and pretty much will only have superficial type relationships. Another issue with her is that there has been very little failure and much success in her life up until this. Those that have experienced nothing but success throughout life tend to "not really get it".

In regards to the empathy, an perhaps I should have elaborated more, but what I would really like to see is just some initiative an passion in wanting to do whatever it takes to make this marriage work. I would think if that is what she truly wants (it's what I hear) I would think that she would be taking the lead instead of waiting for me to orchestrate her every move. Just frustrating from that respect. I know if I were in her shoes I would wan to know why I have this deep seeded insecurity that needs constant attention from the opposite sex, maybe attend a Passion Principles weekend......

Her defensiveness can simply arise from me letting her know that I am having a rough day and feeling rather insecure about out progress and feeling somewhat disconnected from her. Her reaction will be that she doesn't understand what she is doing to cause me to feel this way instead of having an understanding of the strides I have made and that there is still going to be some down days.

As far as seeing the OM again at a work function, not likely at all. He was a contractor at the plant she worked at as an engineer. She moved across town to another plant and there are no "meetings" between the plants much less the contractors.

Most of the items on the provided checklist were accomplished within the first 3-4 months o discovery. Albeit, I had to be the one driving such actions as switching jobs/workplace, changing cell phone number, initiating NC with him and all of her little running buddies at the plant, etc. I think me having to drive all this as opposed to her "wanting" to do it of her own free will has made things more difficult. She fought me on all of the above.

Got to get back to work, thanks again for your willingness to share.

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BOHICA,

As a FWW, your description of her defensiveness resonated with me. My husband has mentioned often about feeling disconnected or tells me I am acting distant yet he is unable to give me specifics and I truly don't know what it is I am doing. This can be frustrating. He also doesn't often give me a concrete example of what I can do to make him feel better. I think he would prefer if I was in tune enough with his emotions (as would I) but I am clearly missing something.

I do understand that there will be bad days; however, relating them back to the affair each time is not healthy for either of you. Could you ask for a hug or a cuddle or some alone time if needed?

Also please remember, she was probably in the fog in the beginning when she was less eager to comply with EPs

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Bohica,

You wrote, As far as seeing the OM again at a work function, not likely at all. He was a contractor at the plant she worked at as an engineer. She moved across town to another plant and there are no "meetings" between the plants much less the contractors.

The OM1 and OM2 likely as well, need to be exposed to their employers, contractors do not like their employees destroying their relationships with their customers by having affairs with them. Suggest you are going to press a lawsuit if nothing happens. Go to personnel and as high a boss as you can find.

You spoke of them having on significant others, not true, if they have facebook or linkedin you have possibly hundreds of exposure targets. Then their parents, grandparents, siblings and coworkers.

How close are these clowns?

God Bless
Gamma

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Originally Posted By: BOHICA
I snooped quite a bit in the beginning, monitoring calls, texts on her cell, scanning phone records, etc. Everything looked on the up and up. There is no way for me to monitor what she does on her work computer or work phone.


I would find some way to continue snooping. It will help you relax immensely.

Quote:
As far as the empathy goes, I feel that one who has none, does not truly know how to love and pretty much will only have superficial type relationships. Another issue with her is that there has been very little failure and much success in her life up until this. Those that have experienced nothing but success throughout life tend to "not really get it".


Very few wayward wives feel empathy and they can and do fall in love with their husbands. So, don't worry about empathy. It has nothing to do with love.

Quote:
In regards to the empathy, an perhaps I should have elaborated more, but what I would really like to see is just some initiative an passion in wanting to do whatever it takes to make this marriage work. I would think if that is what she truly wants (it's what I hear) I would think that she would be taking the lead instead of waiting for me to orchestrate her every move. Just frustrating from that respect. I know if I were in her shoes I would wan to know why I have this deep seeded insecurity that needs constant attention from the opposite sex, maybe attend a Passion Principles weekend......


When a person has an affair, they are checked out of the marriage. They have fallen out of love. As such, she would not be expected to have any "passion" to make the marriage work. But you can help in that regard by showing her a plan that will create romantic love. If you follow this plan, you can fall in love again.

But no, I would not expect to see any great passion to restore your marriage from your wife.

Quote:
Her defensiveness can simply arise from me letting her know that I am having a rough day and feeling rather insecure about out progress and feeling somewhat disconnected from her. Her reaction will be that she doesn't understand what she is doing to cause me to feel this way instead of having an understanding of the strides I have made and that there is still going to be some down days.


Having to face her affair on a regular basis has to erode any remaining love she feels. Dr. Harley recommends never bringing it up again. And you would not feel that sadness if you would create a happy, affair proofed, passionate marriage. If you are happy in the present, your mind won't wander to the past. When someone has lingering resentment years out, then recovery was not complete. And I can tell you haven't recovered.

Quote:
As far as seeing the OM again at a work function, not likely at all. He was a contractor at the plant she worked at as an engineer. She moved across town to another plant and there are no "meetings" between the plants much less the contractors.


Good deal.

Quote:
Most of the items on the provided checklist were accomplished within the first 3-4 months o discovery. Albeit, I had to be the one driving such actions as switching jobs/workplace, changing cell phone number, initiating NC with him and all of her little running buddies at the plant, etc. I think me having to drive all this as opposed to her "wanting" to do it of her own free will has made things more difficult. She fought me on all of the above.


That is pretty common.

We can help you turn this around. Most of us are in fully recovered marriages and you can have this too.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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BOHICA,

As you and your WW learn new MB habits it will seem odd or forced until you have implemented them for a while. Any new habit takes time to learn as well as time to break old bad ones.

As far as trust goes, complete blind trust without EP hasn't worked out for any of us here. Trust is earned by WWS following the MB plan of recovery over time. Both of you living transparent lives, meeting each others EN having EP's, avoiding LB, 15+hours UA and building a romantic marriage that is better than you had before the A.

After a full R we trust but verify not the same thing as blind trust and that usually takes about 2 years of applying MB principles.

You have the tools here to do this if you follow the advice you are given here by these wonderful people.

Good Luck

WLE2


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Part of the problem moving past this is your WW has not left that employer. This leaves you to feel that the OM will find ways to break NC. This is why you are unsettled.

Also you need to move far away to leave the affair in the past.

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I'm sorry if I have missed it, but what others parts of the MB program have you been working on?

Are you spending 15+ hours of UA time a week, meeting intimate EN's and avoiding LB's?

Would your wife be willing to sign up for the online course, or do any phone counseling?

I ask because I noticed quite a few DJ's in your posts and I know this is one of the biggest LB's I have been working on. The greatest part of recovery is building a marriage that is better than you have ever had, not just dealing with the A. This can only be accomplished through UA time, learning to meet each other's most important needs, and avoiding love busting each other.


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