Hello, this is my first time posting but I have been reading the forums for a while and I need help! I have been married for 11 years and we have been together for 14 (lived together for 1.5 years before marriage). We have 3 kids - ages 3, 7, and 9.

W introduced me to MB 1.5 years ago by showing me the website and explaining that it summed up exactly the kind of marriage she wants to have and also many of the problems we face. When I first looked at MB, I must admit that I was very ignorant about relationships and what it takes to build and sustain romantic love. I was a believer in unconditional love and I also did not take responsibility for the way W feels about me. I honestly was a bad H for a decade - committing LBs and not meeting ENs. All things considered, I am lucky to still be married and there have been no affairs.

I cannot plead ignorance any longer since W and I have both been on MB Radio with Dr Harley and Joyce, read LB and HNHN, read the website and forums, and have had 4-5 sessions with Steve Harley. Unfortunately my marriage is still in serious trouble. This past week, W asked me to separate and wants me to move out. She says that I am a freeloader or a renter at best, and does not want a relationship unless I can become a buyer.

Dr Harley and Steve Harley both told me and W that the most important things to work on were eliminating LBs, learning to meet each other ENs and learning to POJA. I developed a plan for both eliminating LBs in my counseling sessions and in the past year, I feel like I have made good progress in eliminating LBs but I am not perfect. There have been a few times where I have slipped up with an AO or DJ, but they are FAR less frequent. I know there is a zero tolerance rule on LBs. For ENs, I created a plan too but my wife is completely unresponsive to my attempts at affection and intimate conversation (her top 2 ENs). I have struggled to continue working on my EN plan because she rejects my attempts to spend UA and basically tells me to shut up when I try to show her affection with words. Touching is completely off the table. She also tells me she is not interested in meeting my ENs, so both our love banks are depleted. She is in withdrawal and tells me everyday "I'm done".

I have two questions that I'm hoping this group can help me answer at this point (I'm sure I will have many more in the future):
1. How does one become a buyer instead of a renter or freeloader? How do you show your spouse that you are a buyer, especially if she is in withdrawal? I have read the articles about buyers, renters and freeloaders, but obviously I am still not getting it. "Real life" examples would be great.
2. Since W has asked me to move out and separate, should I actually move out and honor her "Plan B"? We have been here before and I have always stayed. She has asked me to move out 2 or 3 times before - I have even put deposits down on apartments - and then we temporarily reconcile and I stay in the house. Am I being disrespectful if I stay this time? I want to fight for the marriage, but I also don't want to screw up like I have in the past. Is it time to move out?

I know W has posted to this forum in the past and she will most likely read this post. However, I am completely willing to be open and honest. I am desperate and need help! All advice is greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

Sir, when were you on the Radio show?

What was your wife's posting name?

lonely4years

As a general rule, Dr. Harley would probably suggest that you enter Plan A.
If you were committing love busters, Harley would encourage your wife to separate from you.
It would help if you knew the date you were on the Radio Show, or the topic or furnished your first name to search the Radio Show Archives.

I was on the radio show on 5/9/13. W has also been on two times but I don't have those dates - I believe around August and November 2013.

What are you doing that is irritating her? What are her list of complaints about you? They must be pretty bad for her to want you to move out.

A buyer meets his spouse's emotional needs, eliminates love busters and takes the necessary steps to maintain the romantic love in a marriage.

For example, my H and I do not make any decisions unless the other one is enthusiastic, i.e.: the POJA; we meet each others emotional needs, spend at least 15 hours per week of UA time and we avoid love busters.

If one of us has a complaint, we tell the other respectfully and reaction is always positive. When my H has a complaint about me, I take it very seriously and eliminate the offending behavior immediately.

However, I am certain you have been told this over and over again, haven't you?

She is irritated that I'm continuing to neglect her ENs. However, as I mentioned above, all my attempts at affection and intimate conversation are being rejected by her so I don't know what to do.

She has also told me that there is a lot of pain built up from the neglect and emotional abuse she has suffered in the past. I completely understand her feelings and have told her that I understand and I have apologized. She thinks that I should address every problem from our past and until I do that, she is unwilling to move forward. However, I don't think it is necessary to dig up issues from 10+ years ago and I also feel like I already apologized for these issues long ago. She disagrees and tells me that she doesn't have closure on the issues. When I mentioned this in my counseling sessions, I received very specific instructions not to bring up the issues from the past and instead focus on my plan for eliminating LBs and meeting ENs. I think this may have been bad advice because W tells me that she needs me to address everything. I'm very confused and don't know if this would help or make things worse. When I have respectfully brought up and apologized for old issues in the past, it causes W to have an AO and we make no progress and no closure.

I know I am responsible for my side of the street, but some of the issue in the past has been AO and DJ from W. She claims that the only way she was ever able to get through to me was via AO. We got into such a horrible pattern that AO and DJ were being lobbed at each other all the time. In the past year, both of us have greatly improved - AO is significantly less (nearly completely eliminated) on both parts but clearly there is a lot of built up resentment and anger.

If I had known about MB 14 years ago, then I think things would have been different and we would have always had a respectful, caring relationship. Unfortunately, this was not the case, so what do I do now?

Listening to your radio show on 5-9-13.

1. Dr H says using the POJA would solve most of your problems. Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse. no more independent behavior

2. she has a bad temper, you are disrespectful

3. she tells you what to do and makes demands?

4. she feels totally alienated from you because you don't make your decisions with her in mind

5. Dr H concerned about her philosophy of negotiating. Does she know the POJA doesn't mean she will always get what she wants?

6. consistency is a problem for you - when there are reluctant agreements it causes inconsistency. Inconsistency is due to reluctant agreements.

That was as far as I got.

How long ago were your sessions with Steve Harley?
Did you and your wife enroll in the online program?

@Jedi_Knight, our sessions were between May and August 2014. I had my last session with him about 2 months ago. No, we did not enroll in the online program but we did purchase the LB and EN home courses. In hindsight, I wish we had bought the online accountability program too as it may have been lower cost than the phone counseling, and potentially just as effective.

@MelodyLane, my MB radio program clearly doesn't talk about all our issues. I'm looking at my emails and I just realized that W also had another radio program in May 2013; 1-2 weeks after mine on 5/9/13. For some reason, the radio programs you posted are not playing for me and I don't have access to the archives so I can't search for it.

Did the 2 of you ever do the 15 hours of undivided attention? I do not get the impression by reading your wife's thread. Because she has fallen out of love, you should put in 20+ hours.
Your wife is obviously very bitter.
You may say to her, that you cannot change the past, but that you will do everything you can to make her the happiest woman on earth and you then might tel her why (e.g. because she has made you happy all these years, you could not wish for a better... you'll think of something).

If she brings up the past, you might want to reflect that you are sorry you were not the husband she deserved, but that you will do what it takes to make her the happiest women un earth. Importantly, you should not just say that, but show her that your mean it by making her needs a priority. obviously, she does not expect you to follew through.

As you have not felt her pain, it has not been clear to you hw she has been suffering. You are noticing now, because she has given up on meeting your needs and has become angry, bitter and demanding, which is going to make her, you and the children unhappy.

Is there a possibility that the two of you could take a vacation together (no kids) to a place she would like? That way, you could make some love bank deposits by just being near her, while she is having a good time. And make sure it is somewhere, where there is a lot of distraction, so she can have a good time without thinking about her bitternes about your lack of appreciation of her in the past. Just think of it like you have to sweep her off her feet and make her fall in love with you all over again.

Relationship talk will not deposit a lot of love units right now, because of the resentment. No amount of talk is going to make the last 10 years unhappen. Focus instead on making her happy in the future and at the same time when it comes up, try to understand how lonely she has felt and be not so insensitive to discount her feelings, or say "that's in the past now" because she will feel you don't understand. But do try to lure the conversation back to "what can I do different now to be a good husband to you".

Please tell us your plans to not only further eliminate love busters, but to take her out on dates to bring some fun into her life.

Be aware, that when she comes out of withdrawal, she will come into the state of conflict and do not let this discourage you. But you need to scedule time consistently to meet her needs and you will find, that after a few months she will fall back in love and will start meeting YOUR needs again. You may have to do the heavy lifting in the mean time without complaining. And if you tend to be forgetful, make your iphone remind you to buy her flowers, call her during the day, bring her favorite snack, or leave a little note where she will find it.

Making love bank deposits is like throwing pebbles into the water. At first, the pebbles will disappear, and you will think you have accomplished nothing. But over time, these pebbles will form a heap that will grow into a little island in the pond. Until then, you will have to make deposits without seeing any results. But even if she is in withdrawal of conflict, she will register every little thing you do and a part of her will melt ever so slowly, if you are consistent.

So, start throwing pebbles and conquer your wife with love.

I was in your wife's situation, although with some differences.

My STBX H kept doing over and over again the same things he had already done in the past. He would realize what he did, sincerely apologize, and then not even miss a beat in doing them again. He was just very dismissive of my feelings or my experience in the marriage whatsoever.

In reading your wife's thread, you sound so much like my STBX, with the exception that he would have AOs fairly quickly if I had a complaint, no matter how carefully I tried to present it.

Eventually I reached the point that if he didn't UNDERSTAND what it had been like to receive that behavior, I could have zero expectations that he would ever change it.

We started counseling with Steve Harley when I had less than zero left for him - didn't like to spend any UA time with him because by then I could hardly stand the sound of his voice - and had actually reached a health threshold where something needed to change.

However, there was a huge misunderstanding. I thought SH had read the MB forum thread I had sent him prior to the counseling session (where all MB posters said I need to get him out of the house ASAP) so I didn't go into that information all over again in our appointment. He had not read it, so he didn't think things were very bad and insisted in-home reconciliation would be best for us.

Because day by day my stbx H would continue the same dismissive selfish attitude, as if nothing SH said was getting to him, and I was not getting support from SH to get him out (at the time I still didn't realize the misunderstanding) I lost hope in anything changing so I reached the point where either he was going to understand what he was doing to me or get out, preferable get out, so I started telling him in detail the various experiences that were just horrible to be on my end of.

My stbx H would say that is really terrible. If my sister was telling me these things I'd tell her she should leave her H. But then, he'd just do them again.

I only give you this part of my story so you understand where your wife is. So many things in her thread closely parallel where I was. If she is insisting on going into those details, she may be at that point where she would prefer to walk but is not admitting it. (My original threads were removed when my H started the process because he agreed to the forum - and I knew he would walk if he read the full, honest brunt of what I felt - on of his LBs was threatening to leave when he received a complaint from me)

At this point, you need to view ever single LB you might commit as the potential final straw which irrevocably severs all hope for your marriage. She is in this mindset because she has lost hope.

And your history of pretending to care but specifically deciding not to, while pretending to, does not help you. You have A.LOT. of ground to recover.

BTW, I just want to clarify that I believe the misunderstanding with SH was providential - it was meant to happen.

At one time I was so desperate, crying to God for what to do, and he allowed me to encounter at that moment a text from Isaiah which said I had made a covenant with death, and needed to take a stick to beat it out.

For all kinds of personal reasons, one being facing a job loss and another being I was just afraid of my stbx's reaction if I would stick up for myself, I kept putting that off until is was more convenient.

Also, i didn't realize what action taking a stick to beat it out would be until I posted on MB and was overwhelmingly told to have him leave.

I still couldn't do it - I was just afraid of many things - and I think God allowed that misunderstanding with SH to finally make me stand up for myself instead of having Steve broker it.

MtnMan, your angry outbursts have destroyed your marriage and I very much believe you should accommodate your wife and move out. I would follow Dr Harley's recommendations on anger management and focus on that for now. My concern is that this has gone on for so long that it might be impossible to turn around. I hope I am wrong. But the first step is to move out and give her some peace.

Can you explain this?

MtnMan, I guess with your AOs you are closer to my husband than I originally thought.

Here is the thread started after my H came to the forum and it goes into very detailed advice for a person who has AOs.

Please read all of the advice on the thread - you will really benefit from it.

One of the biggest problems about someone who has AOs is they convince themselves they were in the right and block out how nasty they really were from their recollection.

My H would often think that one of his flat-out verbal attacks, complete with threats to leave, was a productive conversation and he didn't see why I felt that "conversation" didn't close the issue.

Anyways, please read the great advice for an angry spouse on this thread:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2760161&page=1


Have you read your wife's complete thread?

From the last text you sent to her, it does not appear that you still have any desire to behave in a way that considers her participation in the marriage.

Yes, I can explain and I told her the same thing.

Whenever I say or write anything about our relationship, she always has a DJ or criticism about what I have written or said. Yes, I take it as a DJ and it makes me upset that she would be so critical of everything I do rather than seeing that I am trying to be open and honest, even with people that I don't know. I did not tell her that I was posting to the forum and ask for her feedback because honestly I didn't want her DJ and AO about it.

I am not dumb so I knew she would see the post, but I did not ask for her feedback on purpose. This fact alone is quite the testament about where we currently stand in our relationship. Very sad, but true.