Well, while it's nice to hear you claim to be so familiar with his work, you failed to have gotten his name right. It's Dr Harley.

LOL, good Lord, I didn't even notice... My bad... :-)

OregonBoy,

Adulterous relationships are hardly considered "healthy."

OregonBoy, you have misunderstood. That is the opposite of what Dr. Harley says. Affairs are not a symptom. They are not caused by bad marriages. They are a fantastic means of taking bad marriage problems and making everything WORSE.

He pretty much says the same thing about abuse, angry outbursts, and drug and alcohol addiction: there are reasons why people engage in all of these things and reasons why people engage in affairs, but there are no excuses for such behavior, and these choices make the marital problems far worse.

Dr. Harley has described an affair as "the worst thing you could possibly do" in response to marital problems.


I had the exact same problem, and I used this program to motivate my wife to start doing the things that I needed that she previously had no desire to do.

If you bring an affair into a bad marriage, the affair becomes the biggest and worst problem, the one that must be solved first before the other problems can be solved.

Dr. Harley's son Steve Harley, M.S., told me something very similar about my disrespect and anger toward my wife: whenever we had a conflict and I had a problem with my wife, if I got into disrespect or anger, that became the issue. It was pushed onto the "top" of the "stack" of problems, and the problems I was concerned about were "pushed down," usually buried so deep we might not get back to them for a long time.

He was right! We didn't get to tackle my marital problems for a long time until I finally put disrespect and anger behind me.

An affair is this way, only worse. When there is an affair, it IS THE PROBLEM.

Did you learn from Dr. Harley's principles that it's disrespectful to tell people what they think, tell them how they feel, or tell them why they are doing something? Because none of us is a mindreader. You don't know what people think or feel or why they say what they do.

Not so important in non-marital relationships, but crucial in marriage, and if you're unaware of that here, it's a good chance you are making the same mistake where it really counts.

Bad marriages don't cause affairs.

Unmet emotional needs do not cause affairs.

Abuse and addiction do not cause affairs.

Even affairs do not cause affairs! Some people have "revenge affairs."

None of these people were reached out and grabbed by marital problems, abuse, neglect, addiction, or infidelity and FORCED to have an affair.

Affairs are a symptom of A LACK OF EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS. If you don't take extraordinary precautions to prevent an affair, the odds are extremely high you will end up having one, EVEN IF YOU ARE IN A GOOD MARRIAGE.

I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding on this point: Dr. Harley does not say affairs are a symptom; he does not say they are caused by marital problems. If you don't believe me, I invite you to email him at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com and ask for a response - Dr. Harley is usually very generous with his time about giving out answers.

If you believe affairs are a symptom, you may be suffering from "external locus of control":
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2555478#Post2555478
This post about locus control was written by Pepperband, a member of this forum who was an incomparable Marriage Builder.

Dr. Harley advises people against engaging in selfless love. He encourages a "cheerful giver" approach instead, where you find ways to meet your spouse's needs that you are enthusiastic about, rather than sacrificing. He doesn't want any happiness in marriage to be provided at the expense of the other spouse.

Selflessness causes your emotions to keep score and come back later to try to even things.

Dr. Harley encourages integrating both your Giver and your Taker (see the Basic Concepts)

How patronizing.

But you are.

Nothing about your affair was selfless love.

You mean, primarily your affair.

The answer to an abusive relationship is to separate and/or divorce. The answer is NEVER to go out and have an affair. An affair is by far the most abusive thing you can do to your spouse, and it cannot be excused away with a "She started it -- she was abusive first!"

But nowhere near as heartbreaking, immoral or abusive as an affair. And you are in no position to assert otherwise.

So was markos. He didn't have an affair.

So he's told you that?

That is an approach Dr. Harley encourages, actually. But he always advises ending the affair first and trying to repair the marriage according to plans that actually work instead of strategies like selflessness.


What's not all right is to use this board for other than its intended purpose, which is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders (Dr. Harley's concepts). This is not the place to debate forever if you have an agenda of disagreeing with some of Dr. Harley's views, such as his view that affairs are the problem, not the symptom.

First off, you are not an "unbiased source" and your anecdotal "evidence" is worthless. [my anecdote cancels out your anecdote] So unless you can produce something more substantial, I remain convinced of Dr. Harley's statistics and clinical experience.

This is the most important thing I learned this year!

To Oregonboy:
I think the problem is with men who need to feel they are the "cats pajamas, important, special....a real ego boost. Who wouldn't love that? I get it. The wife who didn't meet these needs is perfectly normal after years of marriage. Who can meet every need anyway? The wife could have been a better wife and the husband, surely, could have been a better husband! For a husband to have an affair and throw the marriage away, damage the wife emotionally forever, hurt all the family members...there is no excuse to justify. I'm sure your wife had no idea she was about to lose her marriage. I'm sure she would have done everything possible to save it. Having an affair is just plain selfish. If you want out of the marriage, get a divorce and then start dating.

I'm going to say this once, so that it doesn't get brought up anymore. I did not leave my wife to pursue an affair. THe relationship with the woman I am with only began after I left my wife, and that leaving was because of 16 years of abuse. The only reason my relationship is called an affair is because my divorce was not final yet when it began. I would have been divorced prior to this relationship had I been able to go that fast. This split-up has been coming for about 6 years, so it was no surprise to my ex-wife. Is she surprised I found someone so quickly? Yes, but even she admits that someone who has as much to offer as I do wouldn't take very long. That's not ego talking, she just recognizes what a kind and giving man I am. Anyway, she also openly admits her failings and she is now in counseling trying to understand why she has such a problem with validating people, and why she seems unable to overcome the need to tear down those who love her.

The best decision I have ever made was getting away from her.

Another thing to consider. I accept full responsibility for my actions. All the actions I have taken I took on my own because I wanted to and I believed them to be the best decisions for me. That's it. I'm totally OK with that. The abuse and neglect I endured is no excuse for an affair. I will say, however, that to take a starving man, tell him not to eat, and then offer him a hot meal is cruel and extremely difficult.

My desire was get divorced and start dating, I just so happen to have had an opportunity with an incredible woman prior to my divorce being final. I was living in my own home, and separated from my ex-wife in every way other than legally. I have no problem accepting those decisions.

I just don't think it's fair to paint this big elaborate picture of me having some affair while still with my wife and all that. That just isn't the case...

I couldn't agree with this more, and the woman I am with now has really challenged me to live this way. I have seen tremendous growth over the last 6 months, and to now have such an incredibly healthy relationship proves this works! :-)

You can say it as many times as you like, OB, but it's an affair. You said it yourself in your first post on this thread.

You said it here, too:

Obviously it is NOT quite alright that we don't agree, because it bothers you so much that you keep coming back here to make your case. At some level, our failure to endorse this relationship perturbs you. However, you are in the wrong place looking for support from a forum that supports marriage and condemns affairs.

To Oregonboy: I am sorry you went through so many years of abuse from your wife. You should have left her years ago, so that she could have been spared the pain of you leaving her after many years. For that reason alone, you are dead wrong. Your emotional affair with the OW took place while you were married and, because of that, you may have neglected dealing with your marriage problems.
If you were trying to work on the marriage for a year or two, and if you told your wife you were unhappy and needed changes, then I apologize. But, if you say you did all this after meeting the OW, then the ax falls on you.

You may be an overall kind, unselfish, caring man; however, there is nothing honorable, respectful, or ethical about the way you handled this one particular situation. Even if this is the one selfish thing you did in life "for you" it is cowardly and far more reflective of your true personality. The way you handle conflict and express your needs will impact your future relationships, just as it did in your marriage.

Take some time to address your own character flaws and just be alone, rather than jumping from one relationship to another. This isn't high school.

This is all very simple to understand - you became interested in another woman before you separated. She was the epitome of what was missing in your marriage. She validated your feelings, needs and desires as a man. Instead of manning up and facing and addressing your own character flaws and failures in the marriage, you took the victim stance.

Good for you...you successfully victimized another. This is a gross error on your part and one that can't be corrected or undone. You will both heal and move on, but the damage and scars will last a lifetime.

If you want advice...here's my advice...you are in a very "new" relationship. Of course it is perfect. In any new relationship, the couple is on their best behavior. It feels healthy and right. A match made in heaven. There is a lot of giving and sharing from both people, because they want to impress and love the other person. That person appears to be everything you need emotionally. But if you are a natural caregiver, a natural giver of your time and self to make/keep others happy, at the expense of your own happiness...you are going to end up going down the same path to destruction. You will become resentful and feel the other person is taking advantage of you. They in turn will not respect you and disrespect you in many ways.

This woman may be the "right one" but unfortunately it is the wrong time, wrong place, if you know what I mean. You have a lot of work to do before you can truly experience a happy healthy relationship. This was/is your "exit" affair. It doesn't just stop being that. It will always be. She will always be the woman you left your marriage for, the reason why you did the selfish thing instead of the right thing. This woman will unlikely keep you happy for long. But like you said, people stay with the affair partner, despite unhappiness, to save face, or something like that? You deserve better than that. It's time to be alone, reflect and work on yourself and prepare yourself for something really honorable and special.