I find myself constantly having questions with regards to meeting EN's and avoiding LB's, just situations that come up that I could use a different perspective on. Thought I might start a new thread, to post the random question on.

This came up during the weekend. H and I were on a 5 day vacation. It started out pretty good, and went downhill from there. I can't put my finger on *why* exactly. Other than to say that neither of us are in love anymore, and we just don't have fun together. So by the end of a long weekend we just sit quietly, with a bit of tension between us that came from nowhere other than the fact that we have spent too much time with someone we don't really enjoy being around.

My first observation, one which I recently wrote Dr Harley directly about, is that we both do LB's that we have no control over. The example I wrote about on the private forum was that H sent me a text stating that he was coming home early for a date night, and I did not see the text and was not ready. He later said it was an LB that I was not ready and it made him feel uncared for. I realized this weekend that I too now am annoyed by things he does that he has no control over. For instance, he coughs a lot. I don't really know the reason honestly, he does have some health issues, he just tends to cough once or twice very frequently. It annoys me. I haven't told him that because, he cannot really control coughing can he? How could he avoid that LB? Much like, how can I avoid not seeing a text that he sent?

I realize that we are both out of love, and therefore sometimes just our presence annoys the other person so to speak. I guess my first question is, how do we build a love bank by spending time together, when spending time together unintentionally depletes the love bank?

Unwritten, when is the last time you two have filled out the EN questionnaire? How about the RC questionnaire? Sometimes in order to get back on track you have to go back to the point where you left it.

Make sure you both know what each of your EN are now, at this time. Be willing to meet new ones for each other if there is a need. It sounds to me that the LB are annoying habits that the two of you have to address, with out disrespect, demands. You guys will have to address the LB before you can start making LB$.

Brain storm new RC ideas, there is something out there you both will enjoy doing together you just haven't found it yet.

I know you know MB concepts you have helped so many here. Don't settle for anything less than the M where you are in love with each other. Review your recent history with each other and see where you feel it started to stall. Remember it's the application of the "4 rules of marriage" Protection,Care, Time and Honesty that is the key.

wle2

Unwritten, Dr H gave you a very clear answer in his second post about the text message, so I wouldn't want to write anything here that contradicts that answer. I also don't think I should post Dr H's reply without your permission, but perhaps you could do so, so that posters can see his answer. In short, it amounted to "don't let this happen in the first place" - a date reorganised by a late text message.

The cough, however, is a different kind of problem, and I don't think it belongs under the heading of "LBs that we have no control over".

The cough is not something that your H has no control over. It's either an annoying habit which can be eradicated entirely with diligent attention, or it is a health issue that needs medical attention.

Dr Harley tells posters to solve similar annoying health problems over which we do in fact have control, such as snoring. He describes it as completely unacceptable for one spouse to disturb the other with snoring - and separate rooms are an obvious MB no-no. The solution is to invest in a breathing device and perhaps to undergo a sleep study.

My husband had a bad problem with snoring following a sports injury aged 17, and when I read this advice from Dr Harley after 20 years of marriage, I persuaded him to see a doctor. He was quickly booked into hospital to correct a deviated septum and my nights have been more peaceful ever since.

Your husband's cough might have a medical cause, and this should be investigated and treated. However, if it is a nervous habit you need to list it as an annoying habit on your LB work sheet, and then jointly work on eradicating it. You can sweetly draw attention to it when he coughs, and if he applies goodwill to the solving of LBs he can overcome the habit in a matter of weeks.

In fact, I'm sure I read something by Dr Harley about his own annoying habit of coughing or grinding his teeth when reading, or something similar. He says he tries not to do it, since Joyce dislikes it.

I'm hopeless at finding articles and posts when I need them, but if I whistle I'm sure Brainy will appear.

We have not filled out the EN or RC questionnaire for a long time, I have been hinting that we should fill out the ENQ again and think I will just do it on my side.

As far as what we do for RC, unlike many people we have a lot in common as far as our interests, so it does not take a lot of effort to find activities we both enjoy.
We are both very outdoorsy and enjoy spending time outdoors, so our weekend was filled with outdoor activities. We have also both acknowledged that our dinner dates are generally some of the best times we spend together, and we had plenty of breakfast/lunch/dinner dates on our trip. Everything just over the course of the weekend got less and less enjoyable, like we just got sick of being together. IDK how else to describe it.

As far as getting back on track, IDK that we have ever been on track. We have never had a time in our marriage that we were both in love and happy. But I know the material and know the 'what to do' as far as UA time, EN meeting, LB eliminating...and we are constantly working to live by that. It just doesn't seem to make a large enough impact for us to fall in love. Even when we spend a lot of UA time together, like on a trip, I don't come back feeling like there was a love bank deposit.

I don't want to settle, that is why I keeping reading on this forum, listening to the radio show, and picking away at this even though it seems like I will never have what I want in this marriage.

Thanks SC, I'm not good at pulling things from other areas so if you can move his response over that would be great, otherwise I will try to.

He did have a clear answer to that particular situation, which was not to plan things last minute. Unfortunately, to get all of our UA time and work around our busy family at the same time, we have to constantly rearrange things to make it all work. Which we are very willing to do. Some of our best date nights have been unplanned last minute, our night freed up so lets go out type of dates, so I hate to take that option off the table just because one night there was a misunderstanding. I guess my question was more general than this specific situation.

My takeaway from it was kind of that in general if H is out of love, and feels uncared for or like I do not prioritize him, this would add to that feeling. When we spend more time together and fall in love, and he feels more prioritized, perhaps he would not be so bothered by this misunderstanding.

IDK. Suddenly that sounded like a DJ, like I am trying to figure him out. One of my BIGGEST LB's to overcome!

You are right I should bring up the coughing as an LB. H has struggled with a lot of health issues the last few years, so it is very hard to bring up residual health issue problems as a complaint, feels so nitpicky and disrespectful given all of his struggles.

For the first decade of our marriage I was very in love with my H. Many things that are LB's to me now would have never bothered me then. So I keep thinking that some things that bother me now, if we fall back in love, will no longer bother me. But I also know that unless things that bother me are addressed (and vice versa), that might not ever happen.

LB's has been our greatest struggle honestly. We don't really put a lot of focus on EN's right now, rather on getting UA time and avoiding LB's.

I remember reading Lovebusters years ago and thinking, oh we don't do any of this stuff! This doesn't even apply to us! HA. Now I see that every LB is engrained in our life. Its like an overhaul of how you think, act, and relate to other people. But I will say this, going through MB has made me a much better MOTHER. I not only pick out the LBing I do to H, but also to my kids, and have been working to transform that as well and I can see a major difference. Life seems happier and more peaceful with my kids lately.

Back to LB's. Another vicious cycle I seem to keep getting into is this.

H is not very O&H about my LB's. I have to really be diligent to pick out things like DJ's, etc. on my own. But things like annoying habits, I am guessing there are a LOT, but I have no idea what they are. I have many times told him to PLEASE share with me, on the spot, things that bother him. He says he feels uncomfortable doing that and he therefore rarely does it. When he does share, it is as little information as possible, leaving a lot of room for interpretation.

One of my greatest LB's is DJ's. I have a bad habit of trying to figure him out, decide how he is thinking or feeling, and 'fill in the blanks' of what he has said to me. In my defense, that has come over time from him giving me very little information on what his EN's are or what I do that is an LB, so I am constantly trying to guess. My original thread is littered with me trying to guess how to make him happy (and failing). So I am trying very hard to take things at face value and not read into them.

Here's a situation that recently happened. We went on a very adventurous outdoorsy and rather dirty date. I wore kind of old clothes, and a big cozy sweatshirt. We live in a cold climate and I like to wear hoodies and sweatshirts. On our way home from that adventure, we decided to extend the date and go to a restaurant for dinner. While at dinner H said, 'I know you want me to tell you when I think there is an LB. It is an LB when you wear big sweatshirts.' And I think he went on to say how pretty I am and how something more form fitting would be more flattering. Now, as much as I wanted to argue that we had been doing something adventurous and dirty and hadn't even planned on going out to dinner, and the fact that he likes me to be outdoorsy and that requires me to dress not as sexy sometimes, I did not argue. I simply told him thank you for the complaint. And I stopped wearing sweatshirts. I took his complaint at face value and did not try and figure out the hidden meaning (and for the most part he was pretty clear I thought). I went so far as to change clothes in the car on the way to meet him once to make sure I had on appropriate attire. Last week we took our kids to the movies. I always get cold in theaters, so I asked him if it would bother him if I would wear a sweatshirt to the theatre. He said, of course it won't bother me, I like you in sweatshirts. I said, but you told me that you did NOT like me in sweatshirts, therefore I have been avoiding wearing them. He said, well that's not what I meant, I really just didn't like that particular sweatshirt you had on (which was my big, man's Carhartt 'work' sweatshirt and not one of my more fitted girls sweatshirts). So all this time I have been avoiding my cozy sweatshirts, and he now says he likes them. So, these are some of the things that happen that are very frustrating.

I don't want to DJ but I also feel like I don't really KNOW how to meet EN's or avoid LB's. I get very little info and that which I do is often times left up to interpretation and even retracted after a couple of months of trying to meet that.

H also said that it bothered him that I took that sweatshirt situation literally and 'blew it out of proportion' by not wearing sweatshirts anymore. But in an effort to not DJ, I took it literally and responded to the exact complaint.

I just get caught in these circles and feel like there is no answer and I can't win here.

"As far as getting back on track, IDK that we have ever been on track. We have never had a time in our marriage that we were both in love and happy. But I know the material and know the 'what to do' as far as UA time, EN meeting, LB eliminating...and we are constantly working to live by that. It just doesn't seem to make a large enough impact for us to fall in love. Even when we spend a lot of UA time together, like on a trip, I don't come back feeling like there was a love bank deposit."

The key here is the UA time. You have to do this correctly and consistently in order for it to work. That means 20-25 hours per week over a long period of time. This is why you are not seeing results for your efforts. Are you using the UA worksheet and scheduling your time every week?

And of course one trip won't make you fall in love. If you are not in love, it will be grueling. One long trip won't make up for missing UA time every week.

Uw, you can still do unplanned UA time as long as you are getting in 20-25 hours of planned every week.

We are not filling out the worksheets consistently, and although we continue to get more and more UA time, it is not consistently this high.

It is hard to *want* to spend that much time together, when it ends up being tense and uncomfortable. I don't look forward to it. We are doing activities we both enjoy, but they are less enjoyable together. Every now and then, H will commit huge LB's on a date night and on those times I definitely talk to him about it. But generally, we are polite and respectful to each other, and other than little annoyances, we don't have glaring LBing going on. But we run out of things to say, and it just becomes tense and uncomfortable.

To sum it up, it is VERY HARD to be motivated when you are out of love. It is hard to stay on track with that much UA time when it is not enjoyable time.

Also how do I address his lack of O&H about LBs on my part?

If we are going on dates and spending UA time, and I am doing things that annoy him, but he is not being O&H with me about it...then I won't know what to change. And since I am no longer 'guessing' what I should change, then he will continue to be annoyed and for him at least, the time will continue to be unpleasant.

I will tell you I don't feel like a fun or entertaining date, or like good company at all! In an attempt to not do anything that might annoy him, I don't behave in the way I would around others. I am very reserved and quiet. He has indicated in the past that my sense of humor annoys him, both the way I crack jokes at a lot of things and how I laugh out loud. So I am uncomfortable doing either of those things for fear of annoying him. He has also told me certain topics bother him, for instance one of the sports I do, I get very passionate when I talk about it and could go on forever. He has in the past forbidden me to discuss this sport on dates, so I avoid talking about it at all. So I basically think about every word that comes out of my mouth, and phrase it in a way that can be the least annoying as possible. I don't talk about some of the things that are most important to me, and I don't crack jokes or laugh. No wonder our time is not enjoyable

"It bothers me when you are not open and honest with me about my lovebusters."

What you need to do is find a topic that you would BOTH enjoy talking about. There are other topics than just that particular sport or jokes. Spend time together exploring topics you would both enjoy.

Every one of us in a recovered marriage understands that. We've been there. Your emotions are telling you to stay away from each other.

But the key is to MAKE UA enjoyable. This will take experimenting.

He says that in the past, when he would bring up complaints, I would use it as a door to open up discussion on his own misgivings and how he had to change.

Guilty as charged.

Now he is uncomfortable bringing up complaints because he is nervous about my response.

I told him that if I had to leave the past in the past, then he should also focus on the present and future and what I am doing NOW not what I did a decade ago.

This is the beauty of using the Lovebuster forms. You don't get a CHANCE to use it as a open door to turn things around on him. It's very cut and dry, and all on paper. No discussion. Just information. The forms protect him from this.

Will he use the forms?

How do I do this? We end up talking about things he enjoys (which I do like to hear about but it is more of a one sided conversation), kids, and house stuff, and that turns into what I like to call 'logistics' which I do not like to discuss on dates.

This weekend he once asked me questions about my favorite color and second favorite color. I thought, sad you don't know this when we have been married 15 yrs! And honestly, I could tell he was trying to dig a little deeper but it just seemed so fake. He did not seem to really care about the responses, which made me not really want to share much with him.

OK that was a DJ.

What I mean by that is, one of the LB's he is working on is interrupting me and 'educating' me about things. He does this A LOT. He also will ask me a question, or I will start talking to him, and he will be doing something where I feel he is not really listening to me, and so I will just stop talking sometimes in the middle of a sentence, and he will not even notice. So when he shows interest it seems so fake and I don't really want to give some deep response.

IC is not one of either of our top needs, not even in the top 5, so we don't really put a lot of work into it I guess. Clearly.

I can request that he use them. Because he seemed to not like to talk about LB's as they were happening, and for awhile there were a LOT of them, I requested that he send me an email every night and I would do the same, detailing the LB's for the day.

I am very forgetful and so if I wait longer than a day, would likely forget things that bothered me that day, so it was a way for me to address it pretty promptly without it being 'on the spot.' Also, since I am working hard on DJ's, and they come out of my mouth before I even realize what's happening, I thought it would be a way to read and reread what I was writing to make sure I was presenting complaints without DJ's or other love busting.

I sent him email for several nights in a row, and despite the fact that I requested several times he reciprocate, he did not.

He did say it bothered him that I had so many complaints (maybe 5 a day), he said we should stick to like one complaint a week or something, so we could not be overwhelmed. We really cannot afford to do that with the state of things.

So I can request that he do the form, but I don't know if he will do it or not.

That, in of itself, is something the two of you will need to discuss and explore. It doesn't need to be an either/or thing -- you don't need to discuss YOUR topics, and you don't need to just be discussing HIS topics, either. Spend some time talking and figuring out what the two of you would enjoy discussing TOGETHER.

You're right, it was a major DJ. And such DJs will discourage him from even trying.

LET him investigate you. You're his wife. LET him find out these things about you. Don't judge him for not asking 14 years ago. He's asking NOW.

It will seem fake for awhile. You are both learning new habits and new ways of interacting. It's not going to feel normal for quite some time.

It is needed to fall in love, though, and needs a lot more work.

Write down the lovebusters everyday, and collect the data for a week. Only give each other the lovebuster form once a week.

Every time you complain to him about a lovebuster, it will make a small withdrawal from the lovebank. It hurts. It's needed, but it hurts. So minimize that by only giving the form to each other once a week.

And be very, very respectful on the form when you report the lovebusters. Don't use the form as an excuse to beat the hell out of him with DJs. If you need help wording things respectfully, ask here.