Yes, we call your approach a disrespectful judgement. here

Don't debate whether you really are to blame or not, or whether it's logical to blame you or not.

Just strive to eliminate the issue of blame altogether: we have a problem, how are we going to handle it in a way we are both enthusiastic about?

What has happened in the past year that makes you describe things in this way?

Have you read this?
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

Actually, I think I just snapped after years and years of enduring what to me is a terribly unfair arrangement in my marriage, where I have ZERO say in any decisions, where to live, how to spend the money I helped to earn, how to raise the children, expected to shoulder up FULL expenses for the family, expected to deal with incensed Clients after abortive work in office for which i wasn't responsible, with unhappy staff taking their frustrations out on me because they would be too afraid to do that to my husband, their Boss.

My husband's logic is that the Office (i.e. *he*) paid me for my work, I used this income to pay for rent, household, everything, therefore *he* paid and supported the family, not me. Our fees are in the hundreds of thousands, my salary is 3,000. Every cent of what I received goes to pay for the household and living expenses of all 4 of us. I worked hard in office, and I would receive more if I were to work the same hours in another firm. However, I stayed in our firm to deliver to our Clients so that my husband can receive these hefty fees and I reckon the income will be investment for our whole family. However, he used our office resources, staff, etc. to unwisely participate in design competitions that would have a very slim chance of success, paying for dodgy partners business initiatives that ended up in losses, all against my objections, so that perhaps drained our profits. I have no idea how he spent all the fees, I was never allowed near the accounts.

Every time I asked for fairness and a say in these decisions it led to huge, ugly fights, and I still ended up unable to influence or stop the hemorrhaging, and I just stopped offering my opposite views even if I can explain why I disagreed with the decisions he wanted to make, eg. the business partners he was going to rent an expensive office for had substance abuse problems, and we ended up signing and paying for a years' rent for an expensive empty office. My husband refused to sublet the empty office. Later, my husband would say he signed the lease because *I* had wanted to expand our office??!!

According to *his* logic, he is the Giver, he was doing everything I wanted him to do, but his claims have no factual basis.

I am sorry to say although I am criticized for insisting on "my" logic and facts, I will go crazy if I were to accept that I am the Taker in this relationship, and that the results, huge monetary losses, being sidelined, etc. do not matter as my husband's position and his logic that he has been the Giver are equally valid. I don't have any say in any decisions, yet I am expected to deal with all the consequences of the decisions made by my husband, and in addition, the facts of the situations are turned upside down so that I was mostly to be blamed for these decisions taken by him. He is always right, I am always wrong.

I am hanging onto the facts of the situation because facts are always shifting in our marriage, and I am going crazy because even if I had objected to Decision X by my husband and had a huge row with him, and if X resulted in huge losses to us, he would change the facts at that time so that somehow, Decision X was made because of me.

I just can't seem to be able to explain how this really tortures me, it seems.

Yes, I think I used to be a Buyer but I am now a Renter. I threw every penny I earned into supporting K and our family. He never felt the need to demonstrate how he gave, except that he paid my salary therefore he gave to our family and supported me. From my perspective, he was in charge of many, many times more income than my salary, a lot of it with my contribution to the projects, yet he never felt the need to account for those to me?

I realize that our problems are compounded because there are really *2* areas where a POJA should apply, our working relationship and our marriage...a double whammy.


I honestly don't know if there's any "love" left in this marriage? He claims he loves me yet when I cried or was distressed he mocked me, mimicking my crying, rolled his eyes and soon after our first and second children arrived, spent a lot of time socializing with his friends till the late hours.

And no, he's not gay.

We never even had a single date after our marriage, not even for our anniversary, except when we had a little alone time when we traveled for site visits and meetings. We slept in separate beds since the children arrived, and now we sleep in separate rooms. It's been a sexless marriage for 10 years. As we were always in disagreement, we didn't seem to have done anything to put in love deposits. I bought him gifts, clothes, etc., sometimes, I tried to make the projects successful, to earn fees for us, I paid for family with my part-time income (even if he denies it), this is what I feel I have deposited in our Love Bank. It is true I have been very unhappy in this marriage because I had to go with the decisions he made against my own deep-seated convictions. He is however, a great father, he lavishes attention on the kids, he spends more time with them than with me, in fact all of his time not working is spent with them swimming, snorkeling. I can't swim at all, so I don't usually join in. Kids love us both, and are torn.

To my friends, a divorce is only acceptable if he cheated, he's a substance abuser, he's physically abusive.By all accounts, everything he did in our marriage do not meet these criteria.

I just know I am deeply unhappy and can't communicate in any way with him to change our marriage.

I just wonder, is it possible for 2 people who are so diametrically opposite in disposition, to stay married? If there's really no love left, should this marriage even be saved?

I feel being judged by you too.


The reason why I resort to facts and logic is because I feel that when two persons disagree over an important decision, the facts and the logic must be laid out on the table in order to arrive at an important joint decision, with some semblance of objectivity, for which both parties would be paying.

For example, K wanted to sign the lease on an office space on behalf of a new business partner he met that would incur significant costs to us, $100,000. He has met these business partners, I haven't.

When I finally met them, they were drunk while driving and our car was swerving dangerously on the road to and from the airport.

They finished 3 bottles of straight Johnny Walker within the one evening we spent with them at their house, among 3 guys, playing pool into the early hours of the morning before driving us drunkenly to the airport, on a weekday....

I tried to put my foot down to stop my husband from signing and paying for the year's lease, I simply couldn't trust these men. The data they submitted to us didn't convince me either. This led to another ugly fight and I had to give in.

I have nothing on my side except pointing out the facts that these men did not look like responsible partners due to their heavy drinking, their promising to forward $$$ but not fulfilling their promises, and I wouldn't trust committing to a huge financial investment upfront for such strangers.

I have worked hard for this income coming to our firm, I felt I had a right to have a say too on how this is spent.

You are assuming that by raising such facts and pointing out the logic of a potential loss, I am "bullying" my husband into my viewpoint.

Otoh, I felt bullied into agreeing to take a risk I felt was too high, and it turned out I was right. We ended up taking a huge loss, paying for a full year's rent for an empty office, but my husband changed the facts to insist that he rented the office because I wanted at that time to expand it, so it was for me!

What other ways are there to evaluate which decision might be more valid, in a POJA, if such facts and logic cannot be used, and are deemed "bullying" by me?

Since my husband got his way, for this and other times when losses to us were incurred, why do you judge me to be a "bully', but not my husband? I am sincere in wanting to know why I was and am still wrong, and a "bully" to boot.

I feel tired, I worked hard to build a nest's eggs, for security for all of us, I don't spend at all on myself, yet K can just spend it all, not on himself, but on such decisions that drained our finances.

Why not email Dr. Harley?


Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Thank you, I will do that too. I have meanwhile decided to just book a flight and accommodation and move to another city, but it is heartbreaking for me because I would leave my 2 wonderful children behind.

You'd move without your children?

No, I will leave them with my husband. He wouldn't let me take them. I just have to go because I don't know how to solve these problems by myself.

Also, the city we're living in is so prohibitively expensive, possibly the most expensive city in the world, with a low quality of living, I don't think there is a long-term future here for me or the children. I dislike living here, but had to follow my husband's wishes.

So how often would you even see your kids?

Gave 2 much, please don't leave your kids, talk to an attorney usually it is better to take then with you. I know you're afraid and been bullied for years. We can help you put together a plan to separate safely, without losing your rights to your kids. An attorney can tell you how you can get the information you need about the finances too. Have you tried working with the bank directly?

Would you be interested in a very short term of getting your ducks in a row and selling your H on a plan to recover your marriage, knowing you will have plan B available if he doesn't get on board almost immediately? You Woolf hand us here to help you keep strong and not take him back too soon, bru

Sorry typing on a phone this morning! I mean we would help you stay strong and not take him back until you can see the changes in action not just words. I can't tell you it usually takes a woman leaving an abusive situation 8 times brie she stays gone but our track record is much better here.

That is a question that chokes me up...and had me stumped for 12 years, but he has parents and step-parents in Germany, so I reckon kids will have some care until I am ready to share their custody and if necessary, to provide for them.

My inability to decide when, how and where to settle should I leave has led to his exasperation at my indecisiveness, a further sign of my weakness. He mocked me constantly about this.

With his record, i.e. losing as much as we were making, needlessly, I don't know if he could raise them on his own in this city where fees go as high as $1,500 a month for private school, and my son is failing badly in the public system because of ADHD.



I am prepared to stay strong and find my own way in another city. I am in fact *terrified*. I will start preparing my portfolio and approach headhunters, etc. There is a large sum of fee due, and while I worked on 80% of the project,he has warned me none of it would go to me, or at most 20% of net profit. He claimed he had to raise the kids and thus need every cent of this money. He has already told me that any problems he should encounter in future at work would be my fault because I wrecked him and the family. Again, I would be blamed for any problems, past, present and future.

I am just tired of asking for my fair share, using reason, I guess perhaps if I were to kneel down and beg for forgiveness for whatever transgression he believed in his head I have committed, he might deign to offer me something, but I have nothing left from this marriage, not a single cent, not alimony, no support, no accumulated assets, no child custody (and I can't afford to raise them on my own), except a shred of dignity, plus whatever little savings I had before this marriage, and I intend to preserve this dignity as the most precious thing that will keep me going in the new city, seeking a job and a new life.

I am reluctant to leave my kids with their father and grandparents because although his divorced parents and their spouses are upright, decent Church-goers, they have serious anger management issues. When we visited them, I felt sorry for my kids who were screamed at often for tiny transgressions, spilling water/milk (they were trembling in nervousness), forgetting to throw away their tissues, forgetting to wear socks, etc. On one occasion, my 5 year old son was called repeatedly "Schwein! Schwein!" till he cried desperately for forgetting to flush the toilet. As my FIL was driving us to the airport, he asked for water and my husband had forgotten to bring the bottles with us, so he started screaming and banging on the steering wheel while K cowered as if he was a wayward little boy.

This was when I started probing K about his childhood, in addition to being left alone most of the time to fend for himself, was it so abusive, etc...but he adamantly refused my version of events and said his parents did not overstep any boundaries, his father did not lose his temper and "Schwein!" is a common scolding word for children in Germany (not!)...it was all nothing and I was over-reacting.

(Out of curiosity...Found this online: das Schwein pig, b*****d, son of a b***h, swine
This is one of the worst words in German! NEVER use it (or its compounds) unless you know what you're doing, and probably not even then! Ironically, Schwein haben means to be lucky: Wir haben Schwein gehabt. = We were lucky. (We came out smelling like a rose.)....)


I just can't imagine it...when we visited my friends and distant relatives, they made a point to book a restaurant with tables near the beach "so the kids don't get too bored", ordering lots of kids friendly food and my friends were taking turns playing with them on the beach so the adults could talk away. They constantly looked for ways to make us feel welcomed and loved.

However, I can't draw any conclusions as I have zero psychiatry expertise, and will just accept K's version of events. I can only admit that their behavior towards my children bothered me then.

Yes but you don't want a romantic partner to feel judged. Being judged is fine with advisors, teachers and parents but never let it happen in marriage!

ALL you will get is defensiveness because we want more in love. Tell him something he is doing bothers YOU not that something is impaired or wrong in HIM. Even when correct it's terribly hurtful.

Are you communicating with a man in this city?
Are you involved in an emotional affair?

Gave2Much, you sound very much like a battered wife, all the giving in and willing to leave your kids with your H because you feels you have no power. I feel like we understand a ton about your business dynamics, but very little about why you would leave your kids in an environment you find bad for them.

Have you read the When to Call It Quits letters? There is very good information there about how to get the love busters to stop while giving yourself the best chance at a happy reconciliation later. It would involve putting him out, after taking a short time to get your ducks in a row.

Folks are calling you out on disrespectful judgments because they substitute for actually advocating for the changes your family needs. You see how ineffective DJs followed by backing down have been. The DJs make you feel so bad that the giving in is the next step. But if you don't "go there," don't make the DJs, instead stay on message that something isn't working for you and has to change, then you are reinforcing a pattern that will help you whether your marriage survives or not. Am I making sense here?

The big danger is that you will leave to another city and then run back to him before the changes stick or get involved with someone else that you DJ and then give in to. We see it again and again and again. Setting up the same problems with the next partner. We want LASTING CHANGE for you and your family. The best case is that you can make this happen with your H. Like the folks told you yesterday they have seen folks make these changes every day. but you have to set the bar really high for yourself, so you will notice when he is running over you. If you are DJing him it steels your focus from the LASTING changes you need.

This work stuff is bad too, but it takes your focus from getting your finances in order.

First, NO, absolutely NO, I am not seeing anyone and have not throughout my marriage, even though I long for any sort of touch, a hug, a kiss, I am a human after all. I have been in a forced celibacy for 10 years, this isn't normal for me because I had sexually fulfilling, happy, steady relationships with ex-boyfriends and even H before marriage.

I do LONG for a real relationship, very very very much. Like a man dying of thirst in a dessert barely surviving clinging to his thoughts of water.

I can't get an answer from H about this abnormal state, he shuts off any talk about our relationship, in fact, any talk at all that isn't banter, he shuts down, shuts off. I assume he just has a very low sex drive, or doesn't feel turned on by me. I wear makeup, I am well-presented, in our profession, we *have* to be presentable to our clients. I used to own a designer wardrobe because of the nature of our work and these serve me well to this day, I took my designer clothes to the tailor to duplicate even though I have stopped buying them now. So I would say I am not repulsive physically, not as attractive as in my younger years, but I have not "let myself go".

We both hug and kiss our kids a lot, that helps to provide some solace.

I don't know how to stay married like this for the rest of my life? This wasn't what I signed on for when I got married, I have needs as a woman too.

<<DJ>>

I really want to go a bit deeper into this because I am being criticized for DJ a lot, so bear with me, as I am presenting my position and am open to feedback.

For the record, I am typed INTP and H is ESFJ, in Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, meaning we're almost polar opposites!

I understand that DJ is a LB, which is why I try very hard to stick to Facts and Logic in trying to negotiate a DOJA.

I am trying very hard not to impose my personal, subjective frame of reference in order to be fair to H.

I am looking for Objective ways to persuade H, and to me, there's nothing more objective than facts and logic.

I sincerely want to know, how is it a DJ if I point out what to me is Logical,

Example:

1)Business partner is a stranger.
2)Business partner is an alcoholic and had history of substance abuse.
3)Business partner didn't send any funds/contracts as promised.
4)Business partner is scarily unprofessional, drank and played pool till 4am with H, and his son, also in the business, was playing WoW all night till early morning, on a weekday.

Therefore it is too risky to jump in and commit financially to this Business partner. We can keep the door open to this Business partner, but there must be some safety stop-loss mechanism in place to protect ourselves.

So...I don't understand how H concluded that it is fine to risk $100,000 to pay for an office for this Business partner we hardly knew and met twice, the money that we worked hard to earn for a year, based on all the Facts of the above?

We are also dead broke, and live from month to month. My kids and I wear factory rejected everyday clothes and I shop for discounted food at the supermarket to save, as we are far, far away from being able to afford our own home.

I just felt like being hit hard every time the hard-earned and saved money just goes like *that*.

H has been scammed on many occasions, he just fell for them, sometimes he got out in time, sometimes he just suffered losses. He invariably ignored my pleas and the facts that I laid out, I guess he went with his feelings.


However, I worked hard, saved and sacrificed for this money, shouldn't I have a say too?

See, the DOJA is also based on Logic as well. The Logic being, if one spouse gets to make decisions against the wishes of the other spouse, this will result in an unhappy marriage.

What if H believes DOJA is nonsense, or believes in the opposite?

What if he believes if the Husband gets to make all the decisions, then the marriage is better?

If I want him to adopt the DOJA, am I not "bullying" him too, since this isn't according to his Logic?

I am not defending my position, but really throwing it out for discussion. So please bear with me...

I have night blindness, so I consider myself vision-impaired in some ways. I have carpal tunnel syndrome, so I am motion-impaired in my right arm. I get lost easily, so I am orientation-impaired. I am socially awkward, so I am EQ-impaired. It really means I recognize some areas of weakness in myself. If H tells me, you really don't know how to make small talk with strangers, I will agree with him because it is true, it's excruciating for me, and I am socially-impaired in some ways. Of course I have strengths too, but weaknesses as well. We all do.

Another example, a female client of ours had a new, younger fiance, P, who bragged about being the scion of one of the wealthiest families in retail business.

There were so many things "off" about P during our encounter, so I asked around those who knew, did my own internet search. I showed H all the evidence that P lied about being from that wealthy family. P's profile showed he worked as a model for many years and had bit parts in a few B movies. However, H insisted P must be from a wealthy family nevertheless and trustworthy. He went to hostess clubs and drank heavily with P, got involved with some of P's meetings and projects, but because the financial risk to us was low, I didn't object to them.

I hated the hostess clubs and heavy drinking, and after several rows, H stopped going to those with P. All of those promised projects didn't materialize of course, but damage to us was low. Tbh, I don't know if the damage was greater, and hidden from me.

So to me, the Logic is clear.

P lied constantly, therefore P isn't trustworthy.

However, to H,

Although P lied, he felt he is nonetheless trustworthy. H could always explain away P's lies.

This is what I meant. H doesn't come to the same logical conclusions as most.

Yet the result inevitably supports the Logic -> someone who lies all the time is not likely trustworthy.

Whereas to H, Logic -> someone who lies all the time is trustworthy nonetheless.

All the investments, the efforts, in vain.

This is a terrible struggle for me. I can see the logic, the facts, the result a mile away but I *had* to capitulate.

I don't understand why laying out the Logic -> P lied all the time therefore not not trustworthy, is a form of "bullying" and a DJ.


Early in our relationship, I was bothered by this seeming lack of logic, eg the arguments we got into because H would declare a difficult to defend position, eg. Science is Evil, and fight to the death for it like Don Quixote.