I can't shake the feeling that I made the worst mistake of my life the day I married my German husband.

When he arrived to start work at our previous architecture office, I was the first person he met in the city and there was an instant mutual attraction. We spent a lot of time in office, working late together, traveled to site meetings, and within a short few weeks, started dating seriously and exclusively. As we were from the same profession, we really had a lot to talk about, and were opening up to each other about our personal lives as well. We both came from divorced homes, and naively, we both declared we would never make the same mistakes as our parents.

One persistent trait about my husband, K, bothered me in the beginning. While he is gregarious and sociable, he doesn't make a lot of sense when he states an opinion at times, eg. say, "Science Is Evil". I'm the type who would see all the shades of grey, but he would defend to death a flawed opinion/decision.

Whenever we disagreed, I just had to give in, and I soon realized he would "abandon" me at social events and functions, disappearing to socialize and drink with others, not paying much attention to me or noticing my existence.

All the red flags were flashing, and I tried to break up several times but he didn't want to, he got toxic drunk, cried, etc.

Unfortunately, I got pregnant, and a year after we met, we got married and started preparing for the arrival of my daughter. I cut back on work, and soon, another son followed. They were so dear to both of us, and my husband loves them to death. He is a very loving indulgent father, unfortunately, the inability to care for me, my feelings or my needs continued, and worsen.

It is torture to him to listen to anything I say that touched on my emotional state, he would happily gossip about others, comb through the details about child-raising, and of course it's *his* way that's the right way. Soon, to avoid fights, unpleasantness, we just spent as little time as possible together.

He resigned from the office, and I followed shortly, and he decided to start his own practice. I helped to do my share of the design work, and received a part-time pay from his office as I still had to care for the kids half of the time, even though we hired a nanny. However, since he paid me this money, he assumed that he was paying for household expenses, so every cent that I "earned" went to rent, food, bills, kids, etc., for the whole family.

I was kept in the dark always, about office income and his spending. He just told me there's nothing left. However, I felt that by working on competitions for free, he was wasting a lot of $$$ and office resources, even though he was enjoying the process of expressing his "design genius".

I have long since concluded that he is in fact a rather weak designer, not a surprise because he is so eager to prove himself, he jumps at giving all the answers, and he lacks the ability to step out of himself to judge the issues and nuances around each project to offer a more thoughtful solution.

We both have different strengths and weaknesses - I am introverted and strongly intuitive, looking at the bigger picture, taking it all in before carefully guiding the development of a design concept, stronger sense of aesthetics while he is brilliant at computer work, very professional in putting a package together, good at details, etc.

My success hits him badly, and he keeps his sense of superiority and control by shutting me out, cutting me down and occasionally, humiliating me in front of staff, even though I had helped to save a lot of projects from the ire of angry clients.

I am so stressed out putting out fires with clients and facing upset staff who are torn between our fighting in the office, both of us taking opposite approaches to each project.

We have stopped having any sex for 10 years now. We have not been on any dates, not on our anniversaries or on my birthday. We have stopped talking a long, long time ago. I bought the book "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking", in a last ditched attempt to change the direction of our marriage, and it was futile.

I have ceased to love or care for him, regrettably, I am discovering that I might be a Renter. The Taker in me just rebelled for the past year and it got ugly. I just cannot stand the sight or smell of him anymore.

We are staying together because financially, we are still insecure and rent is prohibitively expensive here, too expensive for me to move out. The kids are growing up, and they are being hurt by our frequent fights and disdain for each other.

He threatened to sue me for half of my savings, and I do have a little more cash than he does, having inherited a tiny sum from my father. However, this is too little to buy a home or support the kids through school.

His family is *horrible*, if I had met them before marrying I might have known what lied in wait for me. His father and mother screamed at the top of their lungs at the tiniest infractions, even at their grandchildren spilling a little milk, forgetting to flush the toilet, etc. and his mother is one of the most selfish and disagreeable person I have ever met who has nothing kind to say about anyone. She neglected K while having him in custody, often stayed out till late and away from home. K was almost raised by his grandmother.

In a way, I wondered if K has been damaged being raised by such parents, resulting in a self-centered, insecure, narcissistic personality with an inability to care and to love.

I was myself damaged badly by a cruel stepmother, but my father was the sweetest, most decent dad who was unfortunately cowed by my stepmother. I lived away from home at 17 to avoid my crazy stepmother, and later, left to study aboard, a high achiever academically. My father unfortunately wasted away from the stress of living and died of complications from cancer. I never got to spend enough time with him after I left.

I have always taken good care of my appearance, and have enjoyed very close, intimate relationships with other boyfriends, so this complete lack of passion, touch, hugs, kisses in our marriage is unacceptable to me, yet the Giver in me just bore the cross.

My friends were mostly conservative Christians and they actively urged me to change myself to become "happy" with what I have, a good looking, socially popular husband who doesn't cheat, and a great, indulgent father. I am told sexless marriages are common and not a reason for divorce.

I stayed, and I am so depressed I have thoughts of suicide. Unfortunately, counseling is very expensive here, $160 per hour, and we simply can't afford it.

My husband doesn't think he has been selfish or demanding in any way, he thinks that I am the one with the problem and I should just "take a pill" to cure my depression.

He refuses to read or interest himself in anything about saving the marriage. He tells me I should just go if I want to, and leave him in peace and not bother him with my "problems".

I am sssoooo unhappy, I cry all the time. I hate myself for coming across as a whiny, weak person, I have kept up a cool, confident facade. I have no idea how to stop the downward spiral deep within myself, I would appreciate any advice, I just don't seem to have anyone in my life who can offer me a way to see light at the end of the tunnel.

Gave2Much,

Have you read Dr. Harley's books?
If so, which ones?

If you are both willing to work on your marriage, Dr. Harley can give you a plan to restore romantic love in your marriage.

Hi GAve2Much, welcome to Marriage Builders. It sounds like you have both developed some very bad habits in your marriage that has led to a loss of love. You rightly understand that sacrifice and unreciprocated giving have led to enormous resentment in your marriage. Dr Harley is a conservative Christian and he is very much AGAINST just trying to "be happy" with a bad situation because that is how love is destroyed.

He addresses the concept of unconditional love in several of his articles:

here

and here: What�s Wrong with Unconditional Love

My suggestion would be to familiarize yourself with Marriage Builders and try and sell it to him. It would be in his best interest to create a great marriage with you, but he has to see a plan and believe in the outcome. If not, Dr Harley would recommend you separate. I would start with the book Fall in Love, Stay in Love because it is a great summary of all the other books.

Here is a great article that gives an overview of the program: How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage

Appreciate your replies.

I have not read the books, but I have read most of the articles on the MB website, so I do understand the fundamental problems of our behavior. I found them very helpful, but as I am the one with a problem with the marriage, my husband isn't open at all to any form of communication, least of all reading up on anything.

He has logic impairment issues, and he will change facts to fit his idea of reality, so everything that has gone wrong is my fault, so he doesn't see any reasons to improve himself. He is perfectly fine with the marriage, he has been taking and taking, but he doesn't see it that way, so it is mostly "me" that is the problem according to him.

Even when I pointed out that he called me a "[censored]" 3 times in the course of a disagreement over a project yesterday, he would excuse it in some way.

I'm on my own, and in a way, I am prepared to plan and act on my own too.

MelodyLane, thank you for the links, I am keen to read them.

Gave2Much,

Most of the spouses that Dr. Harley is involved with have a reluctant spouse.
That is what brings them to Marriage Builders.
There is hope for your marriage but you will need to carefully follow the methods explained by posters here that have successful marriages using Dr. Harley's concepts.

The other problem is I am unsure if we ever loved each other? We were companions in the beginning in exploring the city and projects together, and we had fun occasionally cooking and hanging out together. However, I never really felt "love" from him, I can't explain it, he says he loves me and we should stay married, but it seems he really doesn't care much at all about me, what I am feeling, what I am thinking, anything at all about me.

We went to the Alpha Marriage course, but he is uninterested in doing anything that was advised. He doesn't even want to talk at all about "relationships" or feelings at all except his own.

He hangs up on me, shuts me down or cuts me off when I start talking to him about anything related to the marriage. He would sigh and roll his eyes, the "crazy" is at it again. That's what he tells our kids, "Mom is crazy, and needs psychiatric help and take a pill." This is his story to my friends too, and my friends kept telling me to change, to be more deferring, not to be a strong woman, etc.

His logic impairment also makes it extremely difficult to talk about Love Busters or Deposits to him. He just doesn't get it, even when I tried to explain blow by blow how he humiliated me in front of the staff, he refused to admit it, and it was my fault, repeated ad nauseum, etc. There is no objectivity, only his subjective perception and judgment. I even suspected "gaslighting", I was in despair how the facts can get so twisted so that it was always my fault even though he behaved atrociously, and I discovered the term. One example would be me paying for rent, food, all household expenses, kids, even his clothes with the part-time salary he paid me for my part-time work, dipping into my personal savings as inflation hits, but because he paid this salary through his office, in his mind, *he* paid for rent, household, bills, etc. I have no right to inquire of the profits and income he pocketed for himself!

I have ceased to feel love for him too, having lived starved of attention or care, and staying in this marriage because I am supposed to be a good person and shouldn't wreck the family for no good reason except for my own severe unhappiness.

I don't even know what I can look forward to in my future?

What is his benefit from doing the program? Have you tried selling this program as a benefit to HIM? Most spouses will not buy something unless there is a perceived benefit. Does he want to be a in a happy, romantic relationship with you?

See, most unhappy spouses don't really SELL the program of recovery. They present it as a drudgery that does not benefit them. If he perceives communicating with you to be a drudgery, then he will not buy that. But if he knows that he stands to greatly benefit from this program and it will bring love, happiness and SPARK to your relationship, he might be more inclined to buy it.

What is his greatest complaint about you?

G2M, I would not tolerate his abusive behavior at all. Put him on notice that you won't tolerate it any more. Make plans to separate if it continues. You can't do anything about your marriage if he is abusive to you. That has to be addressed before you can do anything.

His greatest complaint about me is that I am depressed and unhappy...

However, he doesn't think he needs to do anything about it, because it is simply my problem. Everything is somehow my fault.

Yes, i wish I can take a pill and sort of change into a different happy wife who will be happy living the way I am living now, with not a hug or kiss in 10 years.

It's very hard to leave because I have so little support, even moral support, because no one around me (especially my Christian friends) seems to think it's such a problem? Deep inside, my own severe unhappiness and determination to read and understand this marriage signals to me that this isn't normal, isn't right.

I keep thinking, if a switch goes off in him and he sees that it's not right to do this, but what if there's no switch and he just "is" this way?

While you shouldn't tolerate his abuse, you also should stop being so disrespectful to him. His perspective is different from yours but that doesn't mean he is "impaired" any more than you are impaired. Being disrespectful of his views is a big part of the reason your marriage is in such bad shape. You both are very disrespectful.

If you want him to stop love busters, you have to stop them too.

We can show him a way to make you happy and give him the happy marriage he seeks. Would he be interested in hearing about that?

If he is an architect he may be willing to try Dr. Harley's programs, as Harley has an engineering background and approaches marital problems from a perspective that many men, including myself can grasp on to

It is true that logic-impaired sounds disrespectful, but I don't mean it at all in a disrespectful way in the post, but descriptive way.

For example, he would call me and said the hand drawings and sketches made by some of the juniors for a particular project were looking bad. I was anxious and agreed to stop by the office to look at them while he was out of the office, and it was true the designs were weak and nothing special, what you can see normally along any commercial street. I tried to work with the team by suggesting ideas to the juniors to have them change the designs to something more intriguing and unusual. K came into the office and started blaming me for not looking at the contract properly because I told them drawing by hand was ok when they should have used the computers to do renderings, so it was ALL my fault. He even threw the contract at me in front of the design team.

In fact, it was the design that was weak, not the medium of conveying them that was the problem.

This is what I meant by logic impairment. I just can't...use reason or logic or factual records.

I am going to suggest it to him. I think I have not really sold it to him that way?

Kindly advise me. Is this marital situation common and salvageable? Were such marriages discussed on the Forum before?

It doesn't matter how you MEANT it. That doesn't change the fact that it is a disrespectful judgement. You will need to learn to identify these, and eliminate them.

The two of you would benefit greatly from getting the book Lovebusters and going through it.

I am not talking about you MEANT it, but how it *IS*. It is extremely disrespectful and indicates how you view his perspective. Would it be ok if he dismissed your perspective in the same way? No, it would not be ok.

And I want to emphasize that neither is is OK for him to be abusive to you.

Your marriage is the run of the mill around here!!

Hmm, what I do mean is that the facts don't follow in a pattern that is logical to me, eg. he needed better designs from the juniors, he called me and when I was there trying to get the designs improved, he came in and suddenly blamed it all on my misinterpreting the contract requirements to the juniors.

The fights, blame and anger just don't make sense to me, and I don't know how to handle them because they don't follow logic, not to me, because I am like this : Problem (K phoned me about Team's Ordinary Design)-> Analyze the Facts (Which designs can be improved) -> Find Solution (Work with team to improve designs)...suddenly -> Fight (K accused me of not interpreting contract correctly) -> Result (Design work halted, juniors perplexed)?

What I gathered is that in the midst of me trying to ratify the situation, he got angry at me for something else (contract requirements) which wasn't a problem, and wasn't what he phoned me about. So this is difficult for me, because I am seeking Cause and Effect. I don't "get" K.

Logically, we should try to solve the problem of the subpar designs, but why did it turn into another blowup about a "mistake" of mine, and in fact there was no such mistake, i.e. hand drawings are fine for this stage of the presentation?

It just jumps everywhere without rhyme or reason to me. This erupts all the time in office. It did dawn on me he might resent my working, but abortive work costs us dearly in real losses.

Would you believe I am most relieved to know?

You dont need to analyze the conversations, but instead learn how to make love bank deposits and avoid love bank withdrawls

Yes, we call your approach a disrespectful judgement. here

Don't debate whether you really are to blame or not, or whether it's logical to blame you or not.

Just strive to eliminate the issue of blame altogether: we have a problem, how are we going to handle it in a way we are both enthusiastic about?

What has happened in the past year that makes you describe things in this way?

Have you read this?
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

Actually, I think I just snapped after years and years of enduring what to me is a terribly unfair arrangement in my marriage, where I have ZERO say in any decisions, where to live, how to spend the money I helped to earn, how to raise the children, expected to shoulder up FULL expenses for the family, expected to deal with incensed Clients after abortive work in office for which i wasn't responsible, with unhappy staff taking their frustrations out on me because they would be too afraid to do that to my husband, their Boss.

My husband's logic is that the Office (i.e. *he*) paid me for my work, I used this income to pay for rent, household, everything, therefore *he* paid and supported the family, not me. Our fees are in the hundreds of thousands, my salary is 3,000. Every cent of what I received goes to pay for the household and living expenses of all 4 of us. I worked hard in office, and I would receive more if I were to work the same hours in another firm. However, I stayed in our firm to deliver to our Clients so that my husband can receive these hefty fees and I reckon the income will be investment for our whole family. However, he used our office resources, staff, etc. to unwisely participate in design competitions that would have a very slim chance of success, paying for dodgy partners business initiatives that ended up in losses, all against my objections, so that perhaps drained our profits. I have no idea how he spent all the fees, I was never allowed near the accounts.

Every time I asked for fairness and a say in these decisions it led to huge, ugly fights, and I still ended up unable to influence or stop the hemorrhaging, and I just stopped offering my opposite views even if I can explain why I disagreed with the decisions he wanted to make, eg. the business partners he was going to rent an expensive office for had substance abuse problems, and we ended up signing and paying for a years' rent for an expensive empty office. My husband refused to sublet the empty office. Later, my husband would say he signed the lease because *I* had wanted to expand our office??!!

According to *his* logic, he is the Giver, he was doing everything I wanted him to do, but his claims have no factual basis.

I am sorry to say although I am criticized for insisting on "my" logic and facts, I will go crazy if I were to accept that I am the Taker in this relationship, and that the results, huge monetary losses, being sidelined, etc. do not matter as my husband's position and his logic that he has been the Giver are equally valid. I don't have any say in any decisions, yet I am expected to deal with all the consequences of the decisions made by my husband, and in addition, the facts of the situations are turned upside down so that I was mostly to be blamed for these decisions taken by him. He is always right, I am always wrong.

I am hanging onto the facts of the situation because facts are always shifting in our marriage, and I am going crazy because even if I had objected to Decision X by my husband and had a huge row with him, and if X resulted in huge losses to us, he would change the facts at that time so that somehow, Decision X was made because of me.

I just can't seem to be able to explain how this really tortures me, it seems.

Yes, I think I used to be a Buyer but I am now a Renter. I threw every penny I earned into supporting K and our family. He never felt the need to demonstrate how he gave, except that he paid my salary therefore he gave to our family and supported me. From my perspective, he was in charge of many, many times more income than my salary, a lot of it with my contribution to the projects, yet he never felt the need to account for those to me?

I realize that our problems are compounded because there are really *2* areas where a POJA should apply, our working relationship and our marriage...a double whammy.


I honestly don't know if there's any "love" left in this marriage? He claims he loves me yet when I cried or was distressed he mocked me, mimicking my crying, rolled his eyes and soon after our first and second children arrived, spent a lot of time socializing with his friends till the late hours.

And no, he's not gay.

We never even had a single date after our marriage, not even for our anniversary, except when we had a little alone time when we traveled for site visits and meetings. We slept in separate beds since the children arrived, and now we sleep in separate rooms. It's been a sexless marriage for 10 years. As we were always in disagreement, we didn't seem to have done anything to put in love deposits. I bought him gifts, clothes, etc., sometimes, I tried to make the projects successful, to earn fees for us, I paid for family with my part-time income (even if he denies it), this is what I feel I have deposited in our Love Bank. It is true I have been very unhappy in this marriage because I had to go with the decisions he made against my own deep-seated convictions. He is however, a great father, he lavishes attention on the kids, he spends more time with them than with me, in fact all of his time not working is spent with them swimming, snorkeling. I can't swim at all, so I don't usually join in. Kids love us both, and are torn.

To my friends, a divorce is only acceptable if he cheated, he's a substance abuser, he's physically abusive.By all accounts, everything he did in our marriage do not meet these criteria.

I just know I am deeply unhappy and can't communicate in any way with him to change our marriage.

I just wonder, is it possible for 2 people who are so diametrically opposite in disposition, to stay married? If there's really no love left, should this marriage even be saved?

I feel being judged by you too.


The reason why I resort to facts and logic is because I feel that when two persons disagree over an important decision, the facts and the logic must be laid out on the table in order to arrive at an important joint decision, with some semblance of objectivity, for which both parties would be paying.

For example, K wanted to sign the lease on an office space on behalf of a new business partner he met that would incur significant costs to us, $100,000. He has met these business partners, I haven't.

When I finally met them, they were drunk while driving and our car was swerving dangerously on the road to and from the airport.

They finished 3 bottles of straight Johnny Walker within the one evening we spent with them at their house, among 3 guys, playing pool into the early hours of the morning before driving us drunkenly to the airport, on a weekday....

I tried to put my foot down to stop my husband from signing and paying for the year's lease, I simply couldn't trust these men. The data they submitted to us didn't convince me either. This led to another ugly fight and I had to give in.

I have nothing on my side except pointing out the facts that these men did not look like responsible partners due to their heavy drinking, their promising to forward $$$ but not fulfilling their promises, and I wouldn't trust committing to a huge financial investment upfront for such strangers.

I have worked hard for this income coming to our firm, I felt I had a right to have a say too on how this is spent.

You are assuming that by raising such facts and pointing out the logic of a potential loss, I am "bullying" my husband into my viewpoint.

Otoh, I felt bullied into agreeing to take a risk I felt was too high, and it turned out I was right. We ended up taking a huge loss, paying for a full year's rent for an empty office, but my husband changed the facts to insist that he rented the office because I wanted at that time to expand it, so it was for me!

What other ways are there to evaluate which decision might be more valid, in a POJA, if such facts and logic cannot be used, and are deemed "bullying" by me?

Since my husband got his way, for this and other times when losses to us were incurred, why do you judge me to be a "bully', but not my husband? I am sincere in wanting to know why I was and am still wrong, and a "bully" to boot.

I feel tired, I worked hard to build a nest's eggs, for security for all of us, I don't spend at all on myself, yet K can just spend it all, not on himself, but on such decisions that drained our finances.

Why not email Dr. Harley?


Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

Thank you, I will do that too. I have meanwhile decided to just book a flight and accommodation and move to another city, but it is heartbreaking for me because I would leave my 2 wonderful children behind.

You'd move without your children?

No, I will leave them with my husband. He wouldn't let me take them. I just have to go because I don't know how to solve these problems by myself.

Also, the city we're living in is so prohibitively expensive, possibly the most expensive city in the world, with a low quality of living, I don't think there is a long-term future here for me or the children. I dislike living here, but had to follow my husband's wishes.

So how often would you even see your kids?

Gave 2 much, please don't leave your kids, talk to an attorney usually it is better to take then with you. I know you're afraid and been bullied for years. We can help you put together a plan to separate safely, without losing your rights to your kids. An attorney can tell you how you can get the information you need about the finances too. Have you tried working with the bank directly?

Would you be interested in a very short term of getting your ducks in a row and selling your H on a plan to recover your marriage, knowing you will have plan B available if he doesn't get on board almost immediately? You Woolf hand us here to help you keep strong and not take him back too soon, bru

Sorry typing on a phone this morning! I mean we would help you stay strong and not take him back until you can see the changes in action not just words. I can't tell you it usually takes a woman leaving an abusive situation 8 times brie she stays gone but our track record is much better here.

That is a question that chokes me up...and had me stumped for 12 years, but he has parents and step-parents in Germany, so I reckon kids will have some care until I am ready to share their custody and if necessary, to provide for them.

My inability to decide when, how and where to settle should I leave has led to his exasperation at my indecisiveness, a further sign of my weakness. He mocked me constantly about this.

With his record, i.e. losing as much as we were making, needlessly, I don't know if he could raise them on his own in this city where fees go as high as $1,500 a month for private school, and my son is failing badly in the public system because of ADHD.



I am prepared to stay strong and find my own way in another city. I am in fact *terrified*. I will start preparing my portfolio and approach headhunters, etc. There is a large sum of fee due, and while I worked on 80% of the project,he has warned me none of it would go to me, or at most 20% of net profit. He claimed he had to raise the kids and thus need every cent of this money. He has already told me that any problems he should encounter in future at work would be my fault because I wrecked him and the family. Again, I would be blamed for any problems, past, present and future.

I am just tired of asking for my fair share, using reason, I guess perhaps if I were to kneel down and beg for forgiveness for whatever transgression he believed in his head I have committed, he might deign to offer me something, but I have nothing left from this marriage, not a single cent, not alimony, no support, no accumulated assets, no child custody (and I can't afford to raise them on my own), except a shred of dignity, plus whatever little savings I had before this marriage, and I intend to preserve this dignity as the most precious thing that will keep me going in the new city, seeking a job and a new life.

I am reluctant to leave my kids with their father and grandparents because although his divorced parents and their spouses are upright, decent Church-goers, they have serious anger management issues. When we visited them, I felt sorry for my kids who were screamed at often for tiny transgressions, spilling water/milk (they were trembling in nervousness), forgetting to throw away their tissues, forgetting to wear socks, etc. On one occasion, my 5 year old son was called repeatedly "Schwein! Schwein!" till he cried desperately for forgetting to flush the toilet. As my FIL was driving us to the airport, he asked for water and my husband had forgotten to bring the bottles with us, so he started screaming and banging on the steering wheel while K cowered as if he was a wayward little boy.

This was when I started probing K about his childhood, in addition to being left alone most of the time to fend for himself, was it so abusive, etc...but he adamantly refused my version of events and said his parents did not overstep any boundaries, his father did not lose his temper and "Schwein!" is a common scolding word for children in Germany (not!)...it was all nothing and I was over-reacting.

(Out of curiosity...Found this online: das Schwein pig, b*****d, son of a b***h, swine
This is one of the worst words in German! NEVER use it (or its compounds) unless you know what you're doing, and probably not even then! Ironically, Schwein haben means to be lucky: Wir haben Schwein gehabt. = We were lucky. (We came out smelling like a rose.)....)


I just can't imagine it...when we visited my friends and distant relatives, they made a point to book a restaurant with tables near the beach "so the kids don't get too bored", ordering lots of kids friendly food and my friends were taking turns playing with them on the beach so the adults could talk away. They constantly looked for ways to make us feel welcomed and loved.

However, I can't draw any conclusions as I have zero psychiatry expertise, and will just accept K's version of events. I can only admit that their behavior towards my children bothered me then.

Yes but you don't want a romantic partner to feel judged. Being judged is fine with advisors, teachers and parents but never let it happen in marriage!

ALL you will get is defensiveness because we want more in love. Tell him something he is doing bothers YOU not that something is impaired or wrong in HIM. Even when correct it's terribly hurtful.

Are you communicating with a man in this city?
Are you involved in an emotional affair?

Gave2Much, you sound very much like a battered wife, all the giving in and willing to leave your kids with your H because you feels you have no power. I feel like we understand a ton about your business dynamics, but very little about why you would leave your kids in an environment you find bad for them.

Have you read the When to Call It Quits letters? There is very good information there about how to get the love busters to stop while giving yourself the best chance at a happy reconciliation later. It would involve putting him out, after taking a short time to get your ducks in a row.

Folks are calling you out on disrespectful judgments because they substitute for actually advocating for the changes your family needs. You see how ineffective DJs followed by backing down have been. The DJs make you feel so bad that the giving in is the next step. But if you don't "go there," don't make the DJs, instead stay on message that something isn't working for you and has to change, then you are reinforcing a pattern that will help you whether your marriage survives or not. Am I making sense here?

The big danger is that you will leave to another city and then run back to him before the changes stick or get involved with someone else that you DJ and then give in to. We see it again and again and again. Setting up the same problems with the next partner. We want LASTING CHANGE for you and your family. The best case is that you can make this happen with your H. Like the folks told you yesterday they have seen folks make these changes every day. but you have to set the bar really high for yourself, so you will notice when he is running over you. If you are DJing him it steels your focus from the LASTING changes you need.

This work stuff is bad too, but it takes your focus from getting your finances in order.

First, NO, absolutely NO, I am not seeing anyone and have not throughout my marriage, even though I long for any sort of touch, a hug, a kiss, I am a human after all. I have been in a forced celibacy for 10 years, this isn't normal for me because I had sexually fulfilling, happy, steady relationships with ex-boyfriends and even H before marriage.

I do LONG for a real relationship, very very very much. Like a man dying of thirst in a dessert barely surviving clinging to his thoughts of water.

I can't get an answer from H about this abnormal state, he shuts off any talk about our relationship, in fact, any talk at all that isn't banter, he shuts down, shuts off. I assume he just has a very low sex drive, or doesn't feel turned on by me. I wear makeup, I am well-presented, in our profession, we *have* to be presentable to our clients. I used to own a designer wardrobe because of the nature of our work and these serve me well to this day, I took my designer clothes to the tailor to duplicate even though I have stopped buying them now. So I would say I am not repulsive physically, not as attractive as in my younger years, but I have not "let myself go".

We both hug and kiss our kids a lot, that helps to provide some solace.

I don't know how to stay married like this for the rest of my life? This wasn't what I signed on for when I got married, I have needs as a woman too.

<<DJ>>

I really want to go a bit deeper into this because I am being criticized for DJ a lot, so bear with me, as I am presenting my position and am open to feedback.

For the record, I am typed INTP and H is ESFJ, in Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, meaning we're almost polar opposites!

I understand that DJ is a LB, which is why I try very hard to stick to Facts and Logic in trying to negotiate a DOJA.

I am trying very hard not to impose my personal, subjective frame of reference in order to be fair to H.

I am looking for Objective ways to persuade H, and to me, there's nothing more objective than facts and logic.

I sincerely want to know, how is it a DJ if I point out what to me is Logical,

Example:

1)Business partner is a stranger.
2)Business partner is an alcoholic and had history of substance abuse.
3)Business partner didn't send any funds/contracts as promised.
4)Business partner is scarily unprofessional, drank and played pool till 4am with H, and his son, also in the business, was playing WoW all night till early morning, on a weekday.

Therefore it is too risky to jump in and commit financially to this Business partner. We can keep the door open to this Business partner, but there must be some safety stop-loss mechanism in place to protect ourselves.

So...I don't understand how H concluded that it is fine to risk $100,000 to pay for an office for this Business partner we hardly knew and met twice, the money that we worked hard to earn for a year, based on all the Facts of the above?

We are also dead broke, and live from month to month. My kids and I wear factory rejected everyday clothes and I shop for discounted food at the supermarket to save, as we are far, far away from being able to afford our own home.

I just felt like being hit hard every time the hard-earned and saved money just goes like *that*.

H has been scammed on many occasions, he just fell for them, sometimes he got out in time, sometimes he just suffered losses. He invariably ignored my pleas and the facts that I laid out, I guess he went with his feelings.


However, I worked hard, saved and sacrificed for this money, shouldn't I have a say too?

See, the DOJA is also based on Logic as well. The Logic being, if one spouse gets to make decisions against the wishes of the other spouse, this will result in an unhappy marriage.

What if H believes DOJA is nonsense, or believes in the opposite?

What if he believes if the Husband gets to make all the decisions, then the marriage is better?

If I want him to adopt the DOJA, am I not "bullying" him too, since this isn't according to his Logic?

I am not defending my position, but really throwing it out for discussion. So please bear with me...

I have night blindness, so I consider myself vision-impaired in some ways. I have carpal tunnel syndrome, so I am motion-impaired in my right arm. I get lost easily, so I am orientation-impaired. I am socially awkward, so I am EQ-impaired. It really means I recognize some areas of weakness in myself. If H tells me, you really don't know how to make small talk with strangers, I will agree with him because it is true, it's excruciating for me, and I am socially-impaired in some ways. Of course I have strengths too, but weaknesses as well. We all do.

Another example, a female client of ours had a new, younger fiance, P, who bragged about being the scion of one of the wealthiest families in retail business.

There were so many things "off" about P during our encounter, so I asked around those who knew, did my own internet search. I showed H all the evidence that P lied about being from that wealthy family. P's profile showed he worked as a model for many years and had bit parts in a few B movies. However, H insisted P must be from a wealthy family nevertheless and trustworthy. He went to hostess clubs and drank heavily with P, got involved with some of P's meetings and projects, but because the financial risk to us was low, I didn't object to them.

I hated the hostess clubs and heavy drinking, and after several rows, H stopped going to those with P. All of those promised projects didn't materialize of course, but damage to us was low. Tbh, I don't know if the damage was greater, and hidden from me.

So to me, the Logic is clear.

P lied constantly, therefore P isn't trustworthy.

However, to H,

Although P lied, he felt he is nonetheless trustworthy. H could always explain away P's lies.

This is what I meant. H doesn't come to the same logical conclusions as most.

Yet the result inevitably supports the Logic -> someone who lies all the time is not likely trustworthy.

Whereas to H, Logic -> someone who lies all the time is trustworthy nonetheless.

All the investments, the efforts, in vain.

This is a terrible struggle for me. I can see the logic, the facts, the result a mile away but I *had* to capitulate.

I don't understand why laying out the Logic -> P lied all the time therefore not not trustworthy, is a form of "bullying" and a DJ.


Early in our relationship, I was bothered by this seeming lack of logic, eg the arguments we got into because H would declare a difficult to defend position, eg. Science is Evil, and fight to the death for it like Don Quixote.

You are absolutely right, that fighting with H didn't achieve any results, so I just stopped, but it torments me to see hard-earned money thrown away at unfruitful endeavors, when we need the money badly.

As H controls ALL decisions, holds all the money, I have to make do with what is given to me, so although I work, I have little financial independence and every cent I earn goes to support the family, frugally, for years.

I can't support the kids now, because even the new huge sum of money/fees coming in goes to H.

My savings will rapidly be depleted in the new city too, if I can't work and have to look after the kids. I am moving because the city we're in is staggeringly expensive. I just can't live my current life anymore, and I don't see any other options out there.

H claims he is negative too, and I have no idea how these millions in fees are all spent.

See, H really thinks because I am unhappy, therefore it's my problem, I should solve it by becoming happy. This is his Logic, and I can't argue with that.

I see the window and I don't jump because I keep focusing on my kids.

But I am trapped.

Sorry, all the "DOJAs" in my post should be "POJAs", I mistyped!

You are not trapped, you feel trapped. Quite different thing and you are obviously a highly competent professional who is perfectly capable of getting a great job elsewhere.

Is it possible that your husband has an addiction? His behaviour would indicate a secret second life. If you think strategically, you should be able to find out. Don't ask him of course, don't even alert him but MB has some fantastic tracking and snooping tools that you can use. Also sometimes searching the sock drawer will do it.

If you find anything, come back here for the next steps. You cannot work on a marriage if there is competition from an addiction.

Hi living_well, I don't think he has an addiction, but can you clarify what are the signs that led you to suspect addiction? He used to drink a lot, especially with guys like P, who haunted the hostess bars, but he has since completely quit. He used drugs in his younger party days, but not anymore that I can tell.

Thank you for complimenting, I will cautiously say that in the area of the profession where I excel, I am competent, but I am weak in many other areas. I have opened the door and will just try my best and do it The next 13, 20, years will be the same as the past 13 years, and I want no more of this. I am still worried about finding a job to support myself in a new city, but I will try my best to live a new life and hope to be able to keep in touch with the kids.

I told H about MarriageBuilders but he isn't interested because he keeps saying I am the one who's the problem, and I should change myself.

This is what I mean when I said I can't use Logic at all, and I find that his need to be always right to the exclusion of all other possibilities makes it almost impossible to ever heal the marriage. Dr Harley said MB couldn't save some of these marriages, I reckon mine is a hard one to crack.

I might have had an epiphany if I had met his family earlier...my instinct would have been "Run!"

The red flags for me are the people he choses to hang out with and the secretiveness with money. Just keep investigating quietly.

In the meantime, follow the advice you are getting here. I am also extremely logical and if I can do it you can do it too. Make it safe for your husband to share his failings with you. That means absolutelly no disrespectful thoughts, let alone comments. He may be afraid of what you will say.

If you listen to the radio show you will hear Dr Harley and his wife treating each other with the greatest respect all the time even when they strongly disagree. That is what you need to aim for. It will not just benefit your marriage, it is essential for your children to see you like that with one another otherwise they will carry the bad behavior model into yet another generation. I found my children were 'acting out' with one another my worst behaviors with my XH.

The basic part of POJA is that you don't do anything you don't agree to, period. An acronym that helped me move from DJing my partner to getting back in touh with my Taker so i had a shot at recovering my marriage and my life was JADE - I don't have to Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain.


This kind of situation is exactly what POJA is for, each of you brings wisdom and foolishness, and when you change your behavior, stop caving into bullying, stop letting him keep you in the dark, aggressively get to the truth of your finances and all, as lw suggested, then your wisdom will start benefitting the marriage again.

I'm getting good advice here, I will keep an eye out for the signs. I would be surprised because he is very sober these days.

I did some Math and I believe the biggest profit killer, along with recklessly trusting and investing in partners who are not trustworthy, are these competitions and proposals that went nowhere, but which took a lot of human and office resources to produce. I only worked on the paying and paid projects, and I guess he squandered the profits and other sources of income on these unpaid projects. He genuinely believes he is a genius and that he will be discovered if only someone would notice the brilliant projects he submitted for competitions.

However, good designs do not come from a hunger and need to "prove" oneself, to exhibit one's genius to the world, it comes from the opposite, from humility, from the desire to let the needs of the project and clients guide you to a place of light where creativity reveals itself.

I believe we lost the equivalent of half a million over such abortive attempts, our production and costs are expensive.

We constantly fought over the approach to business, so it's a double whammy, marriage plus workplace conflicts.


I have been foolish, I thought by supporting the family, saving and living frugally, I am supporting my husband's dream.

He never ever thanked me, in his twisted logic, he just told himself, told friends I am unhappy because I wanted more money, wanted a European house, etc., *because* I told him I felt that with our dire finances, Germany offers a much better safety net for our kids (German nationals), for healthcare, for our retirement, and excellent tertiary education is free there for our kids.

See, again, I am using Logic to consider our future and our kids' future, it goes through some mental filter and instead of accepting what I said exactly as I meant, he heard I wanted more money, an EU green card to take advantage of the EU system and a European house!!

Isn't this a DJ?

No matter how I explain what I think and feel, what I understand to be facts, his "filter" twisted them into something negative and grotesque about me and my intentions and he fought back hard.




NewEveryDay, I believe that in order for POJA to work, both parties need to share the same Logic/Discourse platform, so facts can be laid out, spelt out, and negotiations can then take place.

My problem is that H doesn't think in the same logical pattern (eg. lying= untrustworthy, substance-abuse business partners = high risk, if it sounds too good to be true = most likely internet scam (yeah, he almost fell for one of those variations of the Nigerian scam, but this one targeted architecture offices), etc.) and I'm at my wit's end how to deal with this difference.

If I can't use normal logic to negotiate a POJA, what can be used?

I have a month left before my flight/departure, perhaps I can mend some fences.

My problem is I don't want to, I actually felt relieved that I am finally leaving. I only look back because I left my beautiful children behind.

Under PoJA he would not be able to make that decision about the business partner because he does not have your enthusiastic agreement. Not because it is illogical but because it bothers you. You haven't agreed to it and so it is independent behaviour if he goes ahead and makes unilateral decisions.

If you don't like it - it doesn't happen. For whatever reason; logical or illogical because it is your life and marriage and finances too. Even if the business partner had nothing against him except you thought he looked shifty. That would be enough to cause unease and loss of love if your husband just big fat did it anyway.

PoJA is about showing care for your partner regardless of the logic. It sets a terrible precedent if each spouse has to present a logical justification for everything. What that basically means is that you don't care about each others feelings, you only care about logic.

Think about things that aren't logical. If your husband had a distaste for mushrooms you would not put him in a position where he had to either justify it logically or be force fed with them.

If he makes an independent decision you've not signed off on that is like force feeding you. He has stuffed something into your life you just don't want there.

One of the reasons I want you to stop DJing is I want you to be more confident about saying no. Just no. Just because you don't want it.

You should expect that to be taken seriously. Giving a speech as to why logically he should just says you don't expect to be considered.

Stop lecturing and just say you don't agree/don't want it and hope he will show consideration for your feelings. He needs to know you will leave any life he has created without your input; it's not the life you want. Where abuse is happening you need to say you won't stand for it; he either stops it or you will leave.

The DJing is pointless. He doesn't need to think exactly like you to listen to what you want from him so what is the point in diagnosing his thinking? It has just been a distraction from the nitty gritty of this situation; 'Treat me well or you will not keep me'.

That's a scary thing to say but you must.

Thank you. Yes, I do get it now.

This actually gives a lot of power to me, as I did not have the right to make or object to important decisions most of the time.

I am happy to accept this, I have been bending over backwards pleading and pleading...but a question for the sake of discussion.


If my objections aren't backed by good reasons, wouldn't that be..hmm..unreasonable of me to object?

Of course personal distaste is another matter, I can't ever eat lamb, can't drink at all, and it was never a problem in my life with others.

Anyway, the bad news is that H isn't interested in MB and he told me he would welcome the peace when I'm gone. He never cared about my feelings throughout the entire marriage, tears, sadness, depression, this premise of the POJA, not to do something if it were to make me unhappy, would certainly appall him.

It dawned on me that I cling to Logic because my feelings have always been negated by H. My feelings are disdainful to him, to him, my depression is my sickness, he is suffering from having a mentally sick wife, etc. so I tried using Logic to support my feeble position in the marriage.

It isn't that this won't wreck both of us, it would, kids would suffer severely, but will H "get" it? No, not from what I have seen of his inability to learn from other failures. He would just blame it all on me as he had and always done.

As someone who is personally part Vulcan (on my moms side), I wmpathize with your position.

I strongly feel (from a logical point) that you should consult an attorney prior to leaving your marital home though

If you do leave your marital home and children, may be considered abandonment (short of leaving for physical/mental abuse) and will not sit well for you in a divorce and custody settlement. I agree - consult with an attorney before you take such a serious step.

At the moment, we both agreed we need a break from each other. I agree it is good to see an attorney, or a marriage arbitrator.

I will be gathering my thoughts and preparing for Plan B.

We have not been talking to each other for a long long time.

He is unable to admit to any mistakes, all the losses he insists stem from circumstantial problems. He prefers to have absolute control, have 100% decision making power, and if he were to fail, the failures would be justified in some ways by him such that it would be some other factors beyond his control that led to the failures, including me. There have been so many instances of DJs from him, abusive language (called me "b***h" 3 x a few days ago because we disagreed over Client's wishes for new project...) against me, it is just hell for me in this marriage.

The worse is that the Taker in me has started to rear its ugly head and I have screamed back at him in abusive language as well, I don't want my own personality to change. And it's horrible if the kids start to feel that such behavior is right and acceptable in the family.

On the paid projects, he would sometimes lead the design in a direction that would be rejected by the clients and the abortive work would cost us dearly. Staff would get angry about the futile overtime, hard work and many of them resigned. If he were to open his mind, he would have found out the problems with his proposals, feasibility, costs, appropriateness, context, etc., but such points would be registered as personal judgment and criticism against him, he would make up justifications to explain them away so that he kept his own confidence in his brilliance and beliefs intact.

I have enabled him, doing my best to put out fires, cope with the stress of upset staff, etc., because of my belief that if he sinks, we all sink.

He needs to be this way, it is crucial for him to have full control and to always protect himself. I could see from his parents they both retain this same strong personality to their advanced age. After 13 years together, I can see a pattern of behavior and core beliefs that have changed little, even though there have been gradual improvements, eg. he stopped the drinking.


I realized I do not have the right personality and social skills to deal with his type. I am poor at Sensing-Feeling, as an INTP, I am polite, cautious, logical, but too "straight" (WYSIWYG) to know how to weave a cocoon around the contents of my views to gently envelop him to keep his pride intact instead of my straight talking. I am also not such a self-effacing person that I can accept being controlled, ordered around, belittled, judged and abused by him constantly for the rest of my life.

I am now able to ask myself, do I really *want* to share my life with this type? Although he has his charms, he is a wonderful, loving father, a good cook, he brings me flowers sometimes, I receive a cake on my birthday, I understand why I have stopped loving him, these traits do not create a Love Bank surplus when huge withdrawals are a constant in our marriage.

Our marriage has failed. I know that MB has helped many many couples, I wish it could help mine, but a fundamental requirement for this to work is an ability for introspection.

No, the fundamental requirement is that you understand MB and you do not, (yet). Please believe me when I say that MB is going to help you whether or not you save your marriage. It also will help your relationships with others, especially your children.

As you work through the MB material, you will understand that it is profoundly disrespectful to try to change your spouse. Throughout your postings it is blindly obvious that this is the logical error you are making. You chose a husband who would complement you, his strengths are your weaknesses and his weaknesses are your strengths. Once you are back in love, you will be able to accept who he is and get joy from that.

See a lawyer about your financial entitlements and keep the kids that way.

Once you've had a chance to lick your wounds you are going to miss your kids and the only option will be to return to the abuse.

Don't take a 'break' do it right, sort it out long term.

Once you've gone you will probably lose entitlements unless you return to the abuse of the marriage.

See a lawyer.

100% agree with Indie. If you do decide to go into Plan B, under no circumstances should you leave your children with him even for a single day. It would allow him to control you for the rest of your life. The courts do not look favourably on women that leave their children and he will put the most negative spin that he can on your actions.

You do not have any evidence of wrongdoing on his part at this point so you would have no defence.

Gave2Much, I know all this stuff is exhausting, but what are you action steps you will take this weekend on the items the folks here are giving you to take

1) When you find yourself thinking about decisions your H has made, continue to bring them to your H respectfully. Your conversation where it escalated to name-calling make withdrawals, not deposits.
2) Start listening to the radio show to hear by example the respect we want you to internalize. You act like it's not okay for your H to think how he does, but it's not the thoughts that are dangerous, it is the actions, how he acts without regard to your input. You are getting a plan in place to address this.
3) Quietly get the information you need about your finances
4) Meet with an attorney to discuss implications of your next steps

When you married, you moved to your H's country, and though you don't think his family is good for them, you think their country gives them more opportunity, is that correct? Please correct me if I misunderstood.

Where are you flying to next month? Where will you stay, where will you work? How and when will you see your kids?

I called an attorney when my divorce was dragging on, I wanted to go stay with my bother across town because I couldn't stand to look at my then-H, I was so angry. I called an attorney friend and got good advice for my situation, I'm not mad at him, I was mad at myself for going along with it all, and that would have followed me to my brother's house. Just stay in the house a little longer while the paperwork went through and get my own ducks in a row. It was sound advice for me. Then when I was on my own with the kids I had gotten in the habit of making better choices and wasn't a sitting duck for the next guy.

Thank you, living_well,indiegirl,NewEveryDay for your advice.



indiegirl, I like your straight-talking and clarity. I think it is possible to amicably work out a long-term partnership such that H and I continue to both contribute to children's well-being, share custody and visiting rights.

I have more liquid savings than H atm, but he has more familial assets which he will inherit in Germany. He told me once that "fortunately" his family did not transfer any assets to him because I might take them, and he threatened to go for half of my savings a couple of times.

This is the uglier side of our marriage. On saner, calmer days, we talked about not going through what some of our divorced friends did, because we don't want the other to sink, love or no love, we are both parents of our kids.

This is why I am going to see if I can transfer a large portion of my savings to the new city, to set up, and to prepare for investment into a small business, etc.

Ideally, if both of us can work with mutual respect for each others' strength (he doesn't treat his staff like he treats me, but then his staff follow/execute every instruction given by him), avoid the unnecessary losses that have occurred, we can earn a healthy profit and prepare for our kids future.

It isn't impossible to do this, we both have complementary strengths, but it is his 100% control and refusal to consider my feelings and views that lead to a lot of problems in our lives.

However, today as we were having a conversation about making serious mistakes, he continued to insist that mistakes will *always* be made by people, and it's ok, what's important is to accept we all make mistakes and move forward.

In my mind, I was going, but those mistakes I pointed out to you to ask that you refrain from making them, they were not unforeseeable, but you ignored what I said and went ahead to commit them anyway because you insisted.

living_well, you mentioned that I should not try to change my spouse, but isn't asking him to respect my views in a PoJA changing my spouse because he never believe he should?

I don't love him after so many years of being negated in the marriage, but I am willing to be be a good friend and partner in raising our kids.

NewEveryDay, we are currently not in Germany, and have not been back except for short visits for 13 years now, and I am worried about the long-term prospects for the kids if they don't learn German, or grow up in the German system, which I feel provides greater security for our family. We might not be able to fit into German society at all if we delay our return.

Personally, I prefer *not* to be in Germany...probably because of my bad experiences staying with H's divorced parents.

You are right, I have not gone "Taker" on H again, we are interacting in a much more civil manner since making the decision for the coming break.

Deep inside me, I wonder if H is this way because of his upbringing? I can't begin to describe how terrifying his side of the family is for me. His parents are not bad people per se, but they are *very disturbing* to me in so many ways, but this probably merits an entire own thread!

H has improved in many ways, especially in his attitude towards the kids. He is much more conscious now about raising his voice all the time, though he still goes back to old habits on occasion.

He used to explode over every tiny incident at home or work, like his father. After witnessing his brutal smack down for forgetting to bring water, I felt great sympathy for him, I wondered to myself if he had been damaged by his childhood? This might explain his reluctance to move back to Germany, as he will be obliged to be with his parents again.

So you can't work out mutual respect within the marriage but you can in a divorce?

Well you'll be the first.

Yes.
Don't count on mutual respect.

Not only can we not change our spouses but it is profoundly disrespectful to try. Essential to see that people come as a package with our good parts and our bad parts interwoven. You can't take the parts you like (good father) and not the ones you don't like (irresponsible with money). What you can do is complement one another so that his strengths build your weaknesses and your strengths build his.

Asking him to respect your views is not trying to change him. When you respect his views, you are saying that he is ok as he is. When he respects your view he is doing the same thing. Can you see that this is the opposite of trying to change each other? If you want him to respect your views, start by respecting his.

My sense is that your husband is an avoider who has become afraid of you. Radical honesty and the POJA are going to be a massive game change for him, and for you too.

So how does the POJA work? One of you will bring a problem to the table. Start with small stuff until you get the hang of it. Perhaps you have conflicting plans for Saturday that mean you will both need the car. Then you discuss the issue back and forth coming up with one idea after another until you find a solution that you are both 100% happy with. At all times the discussion is pleasant and easy. Some of your (or his) ideas may be ridiculous but all ideas are offered safely meaning that there is never disrespect. If you do not find a solution, the answer is to do nothing so neither of you goes out on Saturday. You can revisit the issue at another time of course.

If I understand your issue, your problem is that you feel that your husband would not agree to POJA anything but the beauty is that he does not have to even know what it is. Let's try the above scenario again: one car and two projects on Saturday. Ask him if he can give you a good time to talk about a problem you have. When you are sitting comfortably, presenting it to him and inviting him to negotiate it with you. You don't say 'well my project is the family's shopping so that is not up for negotiation', you tell him that you would like it if there was a solution where he was happy with the outcome. Nobody is going to fail to take the bait. He will be thrilled that his feelings are being considered. Don't worry about the shopping, your husband's feelings are far more important.

After a few successful rounds of POJA where you have initiated, suggest he try it too. Do not be too ambitious, take this gently. Keep it safe.

First, a nice Love Bank deposit from H, he gave me an iPhone 6. I didn't actually want this new iPhone because I am happy with my iPhone 4, and didn't want a new iPhone, but I am happy that he tried to place a Love Deposit and I thanked him for it.

Unfortunately, our marriage has not been as you described. One of the "bad parts" that came with H, and with this marriage is that H will not accept any challenge or disagreement with his opinions, views or decisions. Any disagreement leads to huge fights.

This is why we don't talk any more. He doesn't want to talk at all if the talk is not affirming in some ways. Any other way but his way of thinking and deciding would be "negativity" to him.

He tells me all the time that my "negativity" (i.e. my inability to agree with and affirm him) is the problem.

If, as in your scenario, I were to say "I have a problem", it would immediately trigger something in H that makes him want to shut it down. He just doesn't want to listen to "my problem". This is why it ends in rows, even over small matters.

He can't deal with any feelings I might have which are not happy ones. If I have a problem I have to find my own solutions, and these solutions must not require any huge "sacrifices" (ie. him acting in a way that is not according to his views and wishes) from him.

The POJA is in fact asking H to change in a very fundamental and profound way, changing his pattern of dealing with me.

It requires him to talk to and negotiate with me.

As I have mentioned, we are estranged because unless the talk is trivial, eg how much of the deep ocean has been explored by mankind, what sort of ingredients will make a particular dish taste better, or agreeable, there is no talk possible.

This is also why I bought the book "How to improve your marriage without talking about it".

H simply doesn't want to talk to me. I don't think it is because he is afraid of me as you suggest, he simply cannot bring himself to talk about anything other than relatively trivial or self-affirming opinions.

Perhaps he does have fears, but I can't get to the bottom of these fears, as we can't ever talk about such things.

He is not the first I have come across either. His parents are similar. Another acquaintance I have talked to about Fukushima and Chernobyl insisted that the radiation from these meltdowns are not worse than normal background radiation and that the journalists and scientists who opine differently don't know what they are talking about. He got really upset when I didn't agree with him there and then, and when I pointed out evidence of radiation sickness in those residents in the vicinity, etc. I could not even say "We have to agree to disagree." This person has no expertise in nuclear radiation either. I am open minded to come round to his way of thinking if he has new evidence to show that his opinions are correct, but he didn't. I just had to quickly drop the subject.

My friends advised me to try subterfuge, i.e. I have to pretend to agree with him all the time, and then subtly try to find ways to avoid the pitfalls that would come with his decisions. One suggested "womanly wiles".

I have not been successful because I am too straight for this, too uncomfortable with lying, deceit and pretending, even if it was for a greater good, for example, deflecting the risk to our finances. It's my INTP nature which I can't and don't want to change, because I don't like/am incapable of manipulation and lies, even if they are white lies.

It makes me feel horrible to lie or deceive, I just can't do it. This is why I try the 3rd way, to make the talk as neutral and objective as possible, so it is not about *my* way/feelings vs *his*, but lets look at the bigger picture sort of way. It is still unsuccessful.

H has rejected MB, and I can't even talk to him about it, I believe for the same reasons that has characterized our estranged marriage. His parents' behavior towards each other and their respective spouses also clued me in a little.

His father is a decent man but frighteningly authoritarian. H's stepmother is docile, cheerful and submissive on the surface and seems to tolerate his personality well, but she is extremely cunning and manipulative underneath. She gets her way in the end by ignoring the abuses and temper tantrums from him, and by secret and elaborate plotting to alienate her husband, H's father, from everyone around him, including H and his grandchildren whom he loves dearly. Without going into details, even a couple of weeks with them scare the daylights out of me.

H and I can't talk because even if we talk about POJA or MB, or even about our marriage, it's too stressful for H and he shuts off or finds excuses to exit the conversation.

In my life, I can talk only to friends, or online.

Frankly, I do need him to change, and the POJA looks to be requiring a change in interaction and attitude (i.e. change from a one-sided to a more equal, balanced decision process), to take my needs and feelings into consideration, including my expectations of what a marriage entails.

I am willing to give up the marriage because I can't live any longer like this. It has been a very lonely, loveless, one-sided marriage.

Deep inside, I am really not "ok" with H as he is, because I need a spouse who talks to me, who believes in an equal marriage.

H seems to replicate his parents' behavior, but I can't cope with this behavior and am unable to plan elaborate wiles to get my own way. I lack that kind of "flexibility" and "plasticity" of character.

It takes two to have a fight. First thing you need to do is promise yourself never to fight with him again, ever. If things start to escalate, you just leave the room until you have calmed down. No matter what. You bring up the subject again when both of you are calm and try again, rinse and repeat.

No men want to 'listen to your problem'. That is not how they are wired. They want to see action and results. That is why I suggested you start with something HE wants that is not a large and emotional issue such as the use of the car. When he sees the POJA being used by you to give him the results he wants, he will start to get interested.

You have to entice him into this. Yes, it will be hard because his childhood was full of inappropriate behavior by his same sex parent. Do not point that out because it is very disrespectful to suggest he cannot learn better coping mechanisms. Just start to do this, little baby steps.

Try it, because you have nothing to loose and keep planning and snooping too.

He pretty much does whatever he wants now, so I don't even know what else to give in ?

He just wants me to be happy as it is, i.e. except for trivial matters where I can make some decisions, eg. where to eat, what clothes to buy for the kids, he gets to make 100% decisions on major decisions in life, where to live, where to work, how to spend the big money.

In the first place, I am unhappy in this marriage because I have to always give in, and I am depressed with the way I am forced to live (eg. I have agoraphobia but I *have* to live in a big, crowded city, I need a bigger abode but I have to make do with a 650 sq ft apartment because rent is so expensive here and I don't receive more from him, I want my son to try an another education system but he doesn't and my son is failing,...and so on), with no choices, no say and no financial independence.

You don't 'give in'. Have you read anything that anyone posted to you? You find something HE wants and you negotiate that respectfully until you have a solution that works 100% for both of you. Make it something small. Don't start with major stuff. Keep that until until you both know what you are doing.

I'm betting that he will be in tears of happiness if you can do this.

Also, you will get a lot more support here if you change the subject line of your thread. Do you know how to do that? It is profoundly disrespectful and puts off posters from reading your postings. Try something like 'should I divorce?'. Even 'can I save my marriage?'

How would you know that I didn't try to negotiate respectfully for 13 years?

You seem to be blaming me for my husband's controlling behavior and making some assumptions here that simply aren't true.

My situation is akin to the 3rd and most common trait in this Letter #2 about the controlling H, except that my husband has not come to the conclusion that he needs to do anything about this unequal, dominant-subordinate marriage.

There is one more disturbing trait about our marriage in that the facts are always shifting according to H's wishes, so that he is always right, he can never be wrong, no matter what happened. I find it difficult to put up with history being revised, I am losing even the right to correct memory.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5043b_qa.html

After trying to talk to him about POJA, after trying Alpha Marriage courses, to no avail, I do feel that I should separate from/divorce my husband as he doesn't see negating my feelings is a problem. I have held back because I realize how damaging divorce is for all of us and for our kids, a lose-lose proposition.

I took it for as long as I could (13 years) but I can't take it anymore. I understand unless he himself come to realize the importance of a POJA, my marriage will stay the same for the next few years, and will likely end in divorce anyway, better sooner rather than later. I don't have many years left to rebuild a life that I would find fulfilling and enjoyable. I have a right to be happy too, yes, to cry tears of happiness.

The concept of the POJA isn't alien to him, whether he is convinced he should accept it is another matter.

Only he can decide if he should even try.

Thank you all for your replies. Actually just knowing that my feelings do matter, that I do have a right to be heard in a marriage, is itself an epiphany.

G2M, you are really burned out; we get that.

However, the bigger picture is how to keep your children. While you seek legal counsel and develop a strategy that will not entail fleeing the marriage AND the children (which you will quickly come to bitterly regret), you have nothing to lose to follow the baby steps these posters are advising:

a) Don't fight again. You.can.do.this. Many of us have been in terribly abusive situations and we were able to muster the wherewithal to do this. Regardless of what he does, don't allow it to escalate into a fight. Just leave the room if you need to, but control yourself and your mouth. Distance yourself from the emotions and focus on what the best next step is on your strategy to keep your children. You do not want to leave them behind, vulnerable and unprotected, against parenting similar to what your H experienced from his father.

b) Start getting him to cooperate on the little things with POJA. There have been many great tips here.

Make sure you are eating well and sleeping. Just rest the burden of the marriage for the time being while you put together a strategy to retain your children. You can be very strategic in your professional life; now you need to bring those skills to your personal life.

Would you be able to get a job doing designs at a different firm? It seems that would eliminate many of your most urgent day to day stressors.

This would also let him deal the the actual reality of his decisions without taking for granted that he can abuse someone else into making it work out.

If I understand your thread right, you are not in Germany but would like to be.

Does the country you are residing in give women equal rights? I'm just trying to understand the dynamics/consequences of a separation.

In the US, a spouse is entitled to joint access to the marital assets and business income so you wouldn't have to flee to another distant city. So, if you separated and thereby had to leave the business, your H would be obligated to provide you with funds, you would receive 50% of the business, and the expectation would be you need to be provided for sufficiently to remain local and receive 50% custody.

You could take your 50% (of both assets and client base) and grow your own individual firm, or there would be a buyout from the spouse who is keeping the business to the other.

Is that how the legal system in your country of residence works?

Hi Sunnytimes,

I understand this completely:

a) Don't fight again. You.can.do.this. Many of us have been in terribly abusive situations and we were able to muster the wherewithal to do this. Regardless of what he does, don't allow it to escalate into a fight. Just leave the room if you need to, but control yourself and your mouth. Distance yourself from the emotions and focus on what the best next step is on your strategy to keep your children. You do not want to leave them behind, vulnerable and unprotected, against parenting similar to what your H experienced from his father.


I am unsure if I should go to Germany, I need to understand if H feels afraid of his family, he confessed his mom was emotionally dependent on him and threatened suicide before, and he loves his parents, but I didn't like the family dynamics. H didn't seem happy there, though he wouldn't admit it.

If H is stressed out, I wouldn't ask to move to Germany, but we live in a very expensive city now, and too crowded for me, so I'm ok with any other option if not Germany.

Besides, even though I am terrified by them, I think H still needs to support his parents emotionally and find some reconciliation/closure, it will be a pity not to resolve familial issues as they are advanced in age. Can't be escapist about family, I think.

If we manage our finances right, I don't mind remaining where we are, but the reverse is true, we earn just to hand it all over to the landlords here. Mortgage is impossible as we will go into serious debt just to afford a tiny apt.

However, the kids need a good, inexpensive public school system, college and healthcare, all free for them in Germany, that is my line of thinking...

I don't want to go after him in any way, ideally, I hope that we can amicably part in a win-win situation if not MB.

Unfortunately, our profession is saturated with unemployed architects now, what with the global recession. My pay would be low even if I have work at another firm, and I don't have the flexibility of time for my kids.

I try to stay away, but I am worried that abortive work happens again...my radar is sharper at the beginning of the project.

He has gifted an iPhone 6 to me, it's his way of demonstrating care, and I am thinking that my seriousness in booking a ticket and accommodation to leave is having an effect.

I am sending him more MB materials, he sort of just emailed a neutral response to some of them, maybe he will come round to MB approach?

I wonder why many husbands feel they need to retain full control over decision-making in a marriage?

Is it habit, a deeper need, or the nature of a testosterone-fueled drive?

I also need to understand the mental filter that translates "I know you feel "A" is important, but the Client has mentioned he really wanted "B" to take precedence" to "You are suggesting that I will fail?!"

I don't know how to get H to understand that I only meant exactly what my words meant?

I don't know why I sounded disrespectful in the former statement? Is it hurtful? This just happened today.


I also want to say this Forum is really superb, it provides a comforting, supportive and safe space for us troubled spouses and divorcees.

The same reason why many wives feel the same need.
We are all wired to try to get what we want at another person's expense. It is second nature for men AND women.

It could also be 6,000 years of habit.
I just listened to a sermon that the man is to be head of the household!

Women are just as disrespectful and demanding and controlling as men are, even in Christian homes that believe that men are head of the household.

Yea, a good picture of this is My Big Fat Greek Wedding.
The Greek father thinks he is in charge of everything, but his wife actually tells him what to do all the while making him think it was his original ideas!

I was one of those Christian women that believed husbands should be the head of the household and have the final say in everything. I believed in "biblical submission." My female friends that I surrounded myself with, also believed these things. And I can tell you, there wasn't a more disrespectful, judgmental, demanding group of women than us. Granted, we would sugarcoat our disrespect and demands, and call them different names, but they were still attempts at control.

That's been going on for thousands of years. Proverbs talks about the nagging, quarrelsome wife. Even they, in a male-dominated society, had trouble with lovebusting wives who tried to control.

Dr. Harley talks about how he has seen infants have angry outbursts. We all want what we want and when we want it -- empathy for another human being is something that is learned. That is what POJA really is -- forced empathy.

If you're not in full control over the decisions about your life, then you are out of control.

That wouldn't be pleasant for anybody, man or woman.

Marriage Builders prescribes a way that both husband and wife can be in joint control together.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to have control over your life. Everybody should have that. What's wrong is wanting to get your way at the expense of somebody else - to take away their control over their life so that you can get what you want. What you have to realize is that there are many options that you aren't seeing, that would be enjoyable for both husband and wife - pick one of those, and neither will feel out of control.

And why not - people naturally rebel against a situation where they are not in control of their life. They are supposed to have joint control - they are not supposed to have no control, so of course they don't like it.

Welcome to MB, Gave2Much.

Maybe I overlooked it but where do you currently live and how old are your children?

And Gave I don't think you answered my other questions, when you leave in a month, who will you be staying with, how will you support yourself, and how will you know your kids are okay?

Because you are dealing with a first generation narcissist with excessive controlling behavior, which may be ingrained into his psyche as a result of the culture he grew up in, you may have a diffult time (more than the average person) in getting him to see come around to a "mutual" way of thinking.

In my experience with dating a first generation Italian/Croatian years ago, the control was so extensive it was emotionally abusive, from finances to day to day activities, appearance, etc.

He wanted to change and we tried a few things, but it was futile. At least you have the tools here to possibility help your situation. He may be restistant at first, but don't give up. He will come around!

It much easier to change a women's nature/perspective (one who imposed her control, wants to begin imposing control, or thought she had control through ulterior motives) than a man's perspective (one who had control based on years of familial and cultural values). Big difference here.

The onus is on the man to overcome these barriers in this situation. The wife's control is based on her desire to be in a happy, mutually satisfying relationship. The onus is on her as well, but not to the same extent.

"Onus" is the wrong word. Both have equal responsibility, it just may be more difficult for the man (from this perspective) to overcome the hurdles and achieve desired results.

Just be strategic, whatever you do, even if it takes you longer to get out, so you don't leave your children behind when you do, if getting out is your final choice.

As I am linking H to the MB general site, I am trying not to give too many details away for him to discover this thread, until he is agreeable to MB and POJA, and willing to come on board.

We live in a city where rent is US$2,800 (landlord raised it this Aug) for 650 sq ft, where our tiny 70s era apartment will cost nearly 1.5 million to buy. Mortgage is simply impossible, yet H is considering buying a 400 sq ft apartment here for $800,000.

This led to a serious fight! A tiny studio will never be enough for all 4 of us, and we would be going into a horrible debt that could enslave our children.

There was a period during the financial crisis when we had a window to buy a home here, but H refused and that window is gone now.

I don't know why he insists on living here because we work crazy hours, live frugally, but we can't accumulate any assets because of the CoL.

It's also horrible for me and leads to severe depression because I suspect I have agoraphobia and I feel anxious around huge crowds. I stay at home all the time.

I'm not averse to cities, I used to live in Boston and I loved it there.

I will be leaving my children behind because I have spent every cent I earned working in H's office on rent, bills, food, family expenses, etc. I had to dip into my savings (saved before marriage and invested with modest returns) on many occasions.

When I leave, I will be without income and will be living on my savings. I understand that I can see an attorney, but I don't think H has assets either. He spent all our profits on unproductive and loss-incurring pursuits. We will just lose whatever little we have on attorney's fees.

See, to H, he will still inherit a little from his parents as he is an only child.

He has no worries at all about our future.

I am kept in the dark about everything, so I don't really know how much he will inherit one day. The homes of his parents in Germany look very, very humble.

My father has passed away and I won't receive anymore from my own family than what I have been given.

I hesitate to work at other firms because they won't pay me that much - profits all go to the partners. The only way to earn a healthy income is to have your own firm and manage the costs. However, start-up costs are very high, computers, CAD software, office rent, staff salary, etc., and as the stakes are high, Clients are wary about hiring a new firm.

The abortive work, unnecessary competitions, scams, investment into untrustworthy partners all drained our profits.

Yet H will never admit to any of it. To him, they were not mistakes, there were good reasons, it's all par for the course "in running a business", etc.

I am in despair because I don't see how H can make a living for us in future if he is in denial?

Business fail, ours might. I can see it coming, and helpless to do anything about it.

This is exactly what I fear at the back of my mind. While you're encouraging and optimistic that he'll come around, I am truly unsure.

I know he is trying to improve, but his default mode is this psyche that you describe.

My own experience is that while both sexes can be controlling, I have come across more controlling men than women. With a few exceptions, my female friends are mostly more measured, and flexible in their approach.

To diminish friction between couples, we really should seek those whose VALs and personality match ours in order that the POJA will be easier to implement for both.

There must be someone out there happy with all of H's decisions, monetary losses, love for this city, etc.

I made my bed, I understand, I agreed to marry H. I really didn't know that marriage is not an equal contract.

Controlling men need spouses who are willing (by nature) to go along with their decisions and choices.

I am flexible enough to give in for most of the decisions that do not have a huge impact on our lives, but not for the fundamentals, security of our future, income, roof over our head, etc.

That is the whole problem, and I understand why divorces are prevalent.

I am running out of time to establish a career on my own and secure a life/future for our kids. This is why I need to make a crucial decision at this juncture.

I won't be staying with anyone I know in the new city, though I have a distant relative there. I am subletting for summer. I am also considering a sojourn with another relative who is doing nature tours in a more rural area, simply helping out and paying for room and board.

These are temporary measures and won't solve my long-term problems, I know.

You don't seem to be thinking straight.

Who cares about the business; who cares about your financial future if you don't have your children.

Don't leave your children. Don't leave them at the mercy of an abusive father. This will be the bitterest regret of your life if you do this.

You will damage them immeasurably if you leave them.

Who cares if the profits go to partners of other firms, if you make what you need to stay with your children.

Gave2Much, don't give away more...your children. They need you.

What is it about the new life in another city that tantalizes you more than raising and protecting your children?

I am sure this is not the case, but I just have to ask -> is there another specific man you think you would like to be with more than your husband?

The kids don't need a financial future; they can make their own. They NEED their mom.

This is a terrible idea.

The description of your husband sounds extremely controlling towards you, but you state that he dotes on the children.

It doesn't seem like the Father has given any indication of abandoning tte children, while this Mother speaks multiple paragraphs about finances, turmoil, living conditions, inlaws, subletting an apartment, etc., but only dropped in a sentence about the children.

If they are to be raised by only one parent due to her seeming new path for life, wouldn't the kids be better off with the one parent not considering abandoning them?

This sounds similar to Eat, Pray, Love.

LTL

How would living in poverty help the kids?
Is this man a child abuser? I haven't read anything in this thread indicating that.

This poster should focus on selling MB to her husband.
If he is unwilling to agree to following the POJA in their marriage, she should start planning for separation in 2-3 weeks. She should consult an attorney prior to separation.

This poster never said that her husband has been professionally diagnosed with this disorder.
Most marriages that don't follow the POJA would probably describe the spouse as selfish or use medical terms like narcissist and find examples to justify their diagnosis.
But Dr. Harley does not entertain these scenerios in His Needs Her Needs. He focusing on having spouses focus on meeting emotional needs and avoiding love busters.

Fighting is a love buster.
That is a habit you will need to stop if you want to persuade him to meet your emotional needs

Jedi: "How would living in poverty help the kids?
Is this man a child abuser? I haven't read anything in this thread indicating that."

She said her H puts her down to the kids telling them she is crazy and needs to take a pill. She also said her H and his parents both have anger management issues towards the kids and described a very ugly incident.

If her H would blatantly disparage her to the children and cannot control his anger, then I am reading between the lines that he may not be the best parental option.

My concern is also that if he is already poisoning them against her, when she is gone it will occur without her being there to counteract it and the kids will believe his manipulative poison.

Also she mentioned all the vindictive and dishonest ways her H said he would destroy her if she left; I do not imagine...given that he is already disparaging her to them...that he will omit the kids from his tactics.

I know someone who's H purposefully and vengefully turned the kids against her to destroy her. Many years later she is still wrongly, and bitterly sadly, estranged from her children.

My husband loves the kids, he lets them make all the decisions to the point that they told me in secret that I should tell them what I want and they will persuade their father to come round to my way of thinking. They're his flesh and blood, he treats them as he will treat himself. All the fees of the projects go to him. He also earns a good income from a secondary job that doesn't require a huge temporal commitment, so yes, he is in a better position financially to support and raise the children. While I paid for rent, food, bills, etc., he paid for the nanny.

Our income proportion/ratio is 1:10.

Our expenditure ratio 100% (of my income): ?%

My husband receives 10 times what I receive, he claims he spent it all. I believe him, as I have witnessed the waste.

When I leave, our income ratio will be 0:11.

Which parent is in a better position to raise the children and provide for them?

I don't want to talk about it, it wounds me badly to leave the kids.

Sunnytimes, you are right in that H and his family have a vindictive side.

I believ, though, that Truth will out.

He told me how his mom would plot for the break-up of his grandfather and a lady friend his grandfather fell in love with.:(

I had been the punching bag for his mom on a few occasions. Once, when H's best friend was running 30 min late, she stomped off; H told me I had to stay to wait for H's friend, while H and the kids ran after H's mom. While I dined with H's friend, a sweet, lovely lady, H's mom said so many disparaging things about me to H and the kids that my little daughter couldn't take it anymore and had a row with her. According to my daughter, H and my son were too frightened to say anything in my defence. Grandmother told her she would never receive a birthday present from her again.

Subsequently, she made up with my daughter.

I have countless such anecdotes about H's family, I understand why we should live away from them, unfortunately. I would prefer to live in a different city in Germany, but we have no plausible excuse.

I am not afraid about the kids turning against me. They love both of us dearly and deeply. They are aware of what has been happening.

They love both of us differently. Dad is like a friend to them, while I firmly and lovingly draw boundaries which they understand and respect. Eg., H buys them expensive ice-cream, cakes, candy, whatever they ask from him, while I explain to them the value of nutrition and load them with vegetables, good protein and fruits.

It pains me that I have to scour the aisles for discounted vegetables while the ice-cream treats amount to a day's grocery budget for me.

I'm leaving the Titanic because I just can't get through to the Captain, and when I have built a life-raft, I will come for the children.

If the Titanic doesn't sink, and if I don't sink, then they will have two loving homes that welcome them, one day, I hope.

I have to do it soon, as time is running out for me.

I know it's a Pandora's box when I described my husband as a "Narcissist" and "Freeloader".

What I mean is that his behavior, attitude and beliefs seem to dovetail with the signs of NPD and MB's definition of "Freeloader", eg. he didn't care about my feelings, facts and history changing to fit his idea of what happened, he needs to be have his own way, needs constant affirmation, lacks empathy, few friends, perceives neutral comments as personal attacks and goes ballistic to protect himself, etc.

As therapy is insanely expensive, $160-$200 an hour, I had to do my own research because I really don't understand H and I want to help find a way to save our family, if not our marriage, if possible.

This search led me to this site.

I gave an example, I said "Client mentioned he wanted "B", not "A"..." and he went "B***h x 3!" and "Are you suggesting that I will fail?!"

He gets abusive when he feels an attack on himself, even though it was never meant as an attack.

Beyond what I know of him, is there another person deep down? I really don't know.

His parents retained their unpleasant personality into their old age.

While they can accurately judge others at times (eg. H described the plot to break up his grandfather's romance as something scary his mom did), they do not seem to reflect on their own words and deed, to initiate introspection.

I have no interest in distorting the facts on here, what would I get out of it on an anonymous site?

Lying yields no tangible benefits to me. However, I am at my wits' end, as I lack resources, I want to save my sanity and my kids, and H too, if there's a different person underneath. I value advice, experience, insight, and hope to educate myself and see my own shortcomings as well.

I admit for several months I let go and was abusive to him back which I now deeply regret. It was cathartic for me but hurt our family, hurt H, hurt the kids. Two wrongs do not make right.

While fighting is a LoveBuster, getting me and my kids into severe debt ($800,000) at the height of a property bubble against our will is not only a Love Buster, it is a crime.


By giving me nothing, he ensures that I will accept my marital fate. Is this done with awareness, is this thoughtlessness, I don't know.

My ex husband is every bit as controlling as yours. He would have screaming toddler tantrums when he did not get his way over the tiniest thing (still does according to my son). When I discovered MB, I realised that, for the first time I had the tools to make it possible for me to have a real (in MB terms) marriage with him. To go back to the time when we were deeply in love and he trusted me and listened to what I had to say.

What you have to do is see his behavior as a coping mechanism. It is immature and childish because he has never learned adult behavior. But he can learn. He desperately needs you and would love to have a real marriage with you. He may not be able to make the changes but what have you got to lose by trying the MB approach?

My marriage broke down because of adultery not because of the controlling behavior although I totally know how miserable that is. He has made chronically bad financial decisions since I left him and is miserable. During the 30 years we were married he was able to be successful and desperately wanted to stay married.

The divorce took six years (New York courts) as he fought it every inch in the courts and would have lasted another three years if he had not made a strategic error which allowed me to get a judgement of divorce. Unfortunately to get this I had to give up all the marital assets. This is the kind of thing you are facing too. Fortunately my youngest was 18 otherwise there would have been a nuclear war custody fight. He even tried to fight over the dog (which he was not even interested in).

I am encouraging you to try to work on your marriage because I don't think divorce is going to be a good solution.

Thank you living_well, for sharing your story.

Would you have stayed in the marriage if adultery didn't happen?

Did you always love your husband or did you stay because of your sense of duty to the marriage and family?

Did your husband succeed in adhering to POJA?

It seems your husband has poor judgment skills, he took decisions that hurt you, himself and your family.

This is what concerns me about my husband too, he made many poor judgment calls, I am constantly worried about more losses that are hidden from me.

I know I can't ask him about them, if any.


If H can stick to MB, I will be glad to work on the marriage with him. My own gut instincts told me he won't change, he will grow old like his parents.

Waiting is a risk, I can't live in this city much longer, need to build a career, earn an income, buy my own home for myself and the kids.

I can't count on H.

I am at a crossroad again, very much similar to the decision to marry 13 years ago, and worried about making the wrong choice.

You are most welcome. Sometimes it is reassuring to know that you are not alone.


I would and I did. We were married for 28 years before I had an inkling of his secret second life. But I wish I had known about the MB way. I had no idea that the tools existed to create a romantic marriage out of the ashes I was staring at.

Before I discovered the first and then what was probably dozens of affairs, I was as done with the marriage as you feel yourself to be now. Curiously the Fat Slag was not the reason the marriage ended, she woke me up and made me want to fight for it.

No he did not. Our first POJA was a house purchase. I did not want the house and he wanted it. This was the third house purchase done by him in secret by forging my signature and then disclosing the deal once completed.

The default POJA position is always to do nothing. We negotiated and could not come to an agreement. He then went right ahead. I discovered the house paperwork hidden in a file. We did this negotiation with Dr Harley's daughter Jennifer guiding us. On reflection it was far too ambitious. We had zero POJA skills and should have started with whether the eggs should be fried or scrambled. She had obviously never encountered someone that controlling.


We all have poor judgement skills somewhere. The beauty of a fully integrated marriage is that each trusts the other to protect us from our poor judgement skills. You were not attracted to your husband by accident; you saw him as someone who complemented you. I am sure that he still does. You need to unhook from the idea that he needs to have your strengths and remember why you married him. He does not need your strengths, he needs to have your weaknesses.


Yes, this comes through loud and clear. You are frantic with worry. But your worry is clouding your judgement. That is not good.


Not yet, you will be able to if you can get him to trust you again.


Great, give it a try. We can help but you need to start at the beginning :-)

Hi G2M,

Please take sometime to read Dr Harley's book Lovebusters. It truly helps to get clear on definitions and learn to recognize what a lovebuster is.

Its easy to get lost in your own head. For example you are giving your husband a negative labeling ie Logic Impaired. No one wants to be labeled. Its a personal attack. You want to learn to understand and recognize BEHAVIORS that are negatively affecting your marriage and entrenching the negative feedback loop. In "Lovebusters" Dr Harley presents three classifications of lovebusters and explains the impact for each type of abuse.

The three kinds of emotional abuse:

Selfish Demands (SD)
Disrespectful Judgements (DJ)
Angry Outbursts (AO)

It sounds like your husband resorts to all three a significant amount of time. And you are at least resorting to DJ.

Lets see, if your husband is not going to come around and work on creating a healthy marriage for the mother of his children, what can you do to help your children today and will not cost you a dime?

You can work on your side of the fence. Respect yourself. Protect yourself and your children from abuse. Respect your husband and stop labeling him but call out the behaviors you can no longer put up with and stop putting up with them. You do not have to prove, overly intellectualize, analyze. You do not have to play court of public opinion.

"Your angry outburst and tone of voice are devastating, I am going to take a break for 30 minutes so we can both calm down. I want to be able to calmly discuss this matter..."

Stop allowing him to suck every ounce out of you. Stay out of his boxing ring. He's playing a zero-sum game. You don't have to leave your children behind in a toxic environment. You can get into a shelter.

living_well, I am so sorry that your husband saddled you with so many horrendous problems. I really sympathize, you went through a lot, very much worse than anything I have encountered, and I understand why you would urge me to reconsider working things out with mine. The only comfort is that this is all behind you and you have cut your losses, even though you lost a lot. It doesn't sound like he was able to change to make the marriage work. I hope that you will find greater fulfillment and happiness going forward, and be cherished and treasured by a partner who is worthy of your love and efforts.

graceful2b, thank you for your kind advice.

I understand that the terms sound judgmental, and I should just describe the consistent behavior instead of giving it a term.

I am becoming more aware of H over the years, and how he reacts to situations and information.

1)He jumps quickly to act, not to wait and see or to take a more cautious approach, this leads to huge losses for us.

2)I am unsure what the condition is, but his way of processing and filtering information is different. He is very assured of his impression and then jumps to conclusion and acts.

Eg. He often sees an attack where there is none, and reacts accordingly.

I already mentioned how if I said that the Client wants "B" instead of "A", and he's already decided in his mind to do "A", it leads to a very abusive reaction from him.

Another example, if someone comments that there is too much "A" in a situation, and that there must be balance, he hears "A" must be banned!" He will then get really upset and reacts as if "A" would really be banned, and goes on a tirade about how unfair/dangerous/awful it will be to ban "A", etc. Ironically, he always dislikes and is critical of too much "A".

I can't explain to him what is meant.

He's decided, there's no changing of his mind, and he fights it with all his might.

It is a very tortuous process for me, and a lot of energy is wasted because he filters information very differently.

There's no nuance, no grey, no larger picture, it's a "with me or against me" type of thinking. He has always been and will always be right. No facts can exist, because in his mind and memory, they support his version of events. If I attempt to show facts, it leads to huge rows because this threatens his inner beliefs and need to protect himself. There is so much fragility.

It is a daily occurrence, with me and other parties. It makes it very difficult to communicate and we have stopped communicating.

I don't know how to communicate in such a way that he receives the true meaning of what I, or others, say?

This is what I meant by the logic or filtering impairment rather than intent. It happens also with friends, with colleagues, with clients.

All sorts of great wrongs occur in his mind, even when there are none. I can see this in his father, and his stepmother goes with it and adapts by tolerance, plotting and manipulation.

For example, she wants to safeguard her financial security and interest, she will not ask from H's father directly, but she will plan and plot for the alienation and isolation of H's father from everyone, his family and friends, create incidents that alienate H's father from his son and grandchildren.

She achieves her goals, diminished inheritance for H and the kids, majority of family assets go to her. I don't resent her for it, she is acting in her own interest after all. This is like the soaps, but maybe it is the only coping mechanism?

H also sets limits on our conversation, I can talk only about certain subjects, eg. trivia, kids, food, etc. Subjects that concern our relationship are off-limits, even if I am conciliatory, no DJ, etc., and he makes sure we don't spend any time alone so we can't talk about our marriage.

My friends told me that if I need to change his decisions, I have to pretend, plot and manipulate in order to deal with his character and personality, no communicating or talking things out, no matter how, just say "Yes".

Even approaching the subject is like walking on eggshells. There are all sorts of mines waiting to go off, unintentionally, because I can't be sure what would set him off.

I don't know if MB has dealt with this type of situation?

Atm, as I spend more time on the site, I am also beginning to understand that my situation is really not the worst, though I am unhappy. There's no adultery, none that I know of.

Yes, things got physically abusive, but that was a few years back, under the influence, nothing like what many other spouses here go through!

I want to improve the marriage, but ball is now in his court if he should sign on MB.


I am carefully considering your advice about caring for the children first without incurring cost. Unfortunately, the state of our world is such that inflation will deplete the lower and middle classes like us. I don't want to go into debt, for our house or for the kids healthcare/education/college fees.

I don't want to move to Germany, I can't speak German at all, I am terrified of my in-laws, I have no friends there, I prefer an English-speaking society, I don't feel comfortable there, but I might have to do it.

Yes. Dr. Harley has personally counseled more than 50,000 individuals and couples.

I want to address the issues 1 and 2 you share in your post above.
These are excellent examples of why the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) are used to protect the other spouse. The Policy of Joint Agreement says never do anything without enthusiastic agreement between yourself and your spouse.
Dr. Harley wrote an article addressing shared control for finances which you may like to read here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5023_qa.html

Every marriage that comes to MB has problems. That is why they are here.

G2M, you don't have to convince me that POJA is not gonna happen with your H...my ex shares very similar traits when it came to his work. You will have to take drastic measures to wake up your H (if he ever does). Have you considered not paying the rent and simply telling him you don't have the funds to pay it so he needs to? I don't know how renting/evictions work where you live but you may have to step out of your comfort zone and do something like that. Right now you are a work dog for your H, not a wife. If you leave, he will have to pay the rent anyway, correct? Are you both on the lease?

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2814023&page=1

Dr. H advised this poster to stop paying medical insurance for her stepchildren and husband. Even though this was a blended family situation, there was still a lack of POJA from the Freeloader husband and growing resentment from the wife. I don't think the wife listened to the advice but Dr. H did tell her (answered her email on MB radio) that she should stop paying and force the H to figure it out or step up with POJA.

And also, have you snooped at all to find out if there is an affair? Is 100% of your H's time accounted for? No sex in ten years and you have no idea where his money is going sounds like to me.

I was wondering about porn and self service. Have you snooped?

black_raven, this is exactly how I feel now.

I have been reading many of the links, but I still haven't come across a case quite like H.

Since my AO, he has set up a "Joint Account" but he doesn't put in the total income he receives, but puts in exactly what he pay me as "salary" before, enough for rent and 50% of bills and groceries, and then whatever he decides I should receive as "salary" I can use as I wish. However, as inflation has hit badly, the bills and groceries exceed this amount that he is willing to put into the JA. Any overdraft I have to account to him, eg. school books, German courses for kids.

If I leave, yes, he has to foot the bills. In his mind, he is probably also thinking he would have to hire someone to replace me, and that could be costly.

I find it difficult to snoop, I really respect his privacy. I guess I will do it if I suspect strongly of something amiss (drugs) or if I love him enough to fear adultery. I already know that he has incurred huge losses, so a lot of fees and his own secondary income are gone. He has his separate business/savings account, lots of them, here and in Germany, and he squirrels whatever profits accumulated to himself. Is it a lot? I don't think so.

I know he will NOT pay a cent for alimony, he will keep custody and kick me out.

If I stay in this marriage, it's because of a sense of duty to the marital contract and the children, which I greatly value.

Except for being a loving father, *none* of my needs in a marriage have been met. Not one.

My biggest struggle is to ascertain for myself if H can step up enough to gradually work towards a balanced, happier marriage.

My Love Bank is so severely depleted negative, I don't feel any love or hope.

For H, whatever I do (work, pay the rent and bills, lets him keep all the income and make all the decisions in life, etc.) won't top up his Love Bank either, he really needs a "traditional wife", someone completely submissive and who makes him feel good about himself all the time, a very different person from what I am.

In his mind, I am not a good wife, because even with what i feel are my Giving, there's "admiration" and "praise" for him missing.

He is only thinking about fulfilling himself, his needs, 100% of the time. He is 100% focused on the dream of becoming the successful "Genius" come true, to be on the pedestal. There's still this giant Black Hole of his needs to be filled.

Last week, as a large fee is stuck because of banking transfer problems, and I suggested that it goes to my account first, he went bezerk and threatened to call the police on me for trying to illegally embezzle the fees. Bear in mind that I delivered 80% of the design work for this project.

It takes introspection, an ability to reason, to know that these are LBs.

Even when I get sick, or am in pain, eg. tendonitis, he will also feel sick and tendonitis pain.

He can't help being this way, it's what he is, and he's unlikely to change.

He wants me to stay in the marriage because I am conveniently fulfilling many of his needs, not because he feels a shred of love for me.

What I have to do is to leave, find work somewhere and build my own security and future, my own life raft big enough for the kids when they come to me.

Duty alone is not enough for me to stay in this marriage, and married to the Captain of the Titanic means I need to build a life raft for me and my children.

Thank you all for your kind advice. I will not give up hope that some day, after my divorce, I might meet someone with whom it is possible to build a marriage with what I have learned on this site and the books which I intend to buy.

Hi G2M-
Did you end up leaving? PlanB?

Hi Openeyes11, I did move to a city 2 hours away. Nothing much has changed, except he doesn't even talk to me anymore or try to set up Skype for the kids to talk to me. I miss my kids alot, fortunately there's WhatsApp, and I feel less stress over their school pressures being away. I am working so hard, from 9am-9pm, then cooking and cleaning. It's not Plan B to me, I really don't feel any hope at all for this marriage except to manage the separation. I am back home now for a few days, precious time with my kids, then back to my crazy work schedule. As usual, my husband is out till late at night with his friends when I'm home. I do appreciate the forum for helping me through a tough patch.

I do realize that maybe some men are simply not made for marriage, i.e., they do not enjoy the companionship of their wives, and much prefer spending time outside the home with friends. He is extremely attentive and generous with his friends, just not with me. It is pointless to try to get him to see what's fair, what's right in a marriage, what do the vows even mean. He simply doesn't really care for me at all, he will not put efforts into something he doesn't cherish or feel is important to him.

I get it. Hugs!

Btw....I hope that you'll be able to get your kids back. Are they okay with you moving away?

Thank you, I don't think I will be fighting for custody even though I miss them tremendously. K loves them, so I'm not too worried, except that he indulges them too much. He often jokes that he only married because he wanted kids and could not have them by himself so he "borrowed" the mother...but it's not funny to me any more... I can only try to get K to agree to a plan for their schooling and education. I hope to earn enough this year to take my son to a good European school and focus on getting him to thrive this coming Aug/September. He is doing badly for now, and I believe the IB system is better and easier for him. My daughter is doing well, so I will let her choose her own academic path. Meanwhile, we just naturally separate without the trauma of divorce, that could be a good thing for the kids until we are both ready to file. I believe we can do so after living separately for 2 years (or more).

I find myself back at MB because I do hope to help some husbands out there seeking advice on MB understand their wives better. If they can "see" where my husband failed to "see", that could save their marriages, which to me would be a type of redemption for my own marriage failure.

Just taking the step of seeking answers on MB is truly a step in the right direction, and I wish for others what I could not find in my own marriage.

Reading the thread though, is quite an epiphany, I had so much anger inside me towards him, I was so bitter...and there really is no need for this, no point in it at all to feel hurt. Sort of blaming a pit bull for biting me...just accept this is his nature, and it's alright that the marriage did not work out in the end. Many marriages don't, and many couples are ultimately mismatched.

g2M, so glad to read you got out of this tragic situation.

Many marriages become mismatched because one spouse does not consider the other spouses feelings or afford great care. That thoughtless nature can be changed when there is willingness. Many of us here have created great marriage by becoming thoughtful, caring spouses. Your husband just refused to do that.

Thank you MelodyLane, for your kind words. I think most men who are able to make use of MB to try to reconcile with their wives have already overcome the biggest hurdle, the ability to see their own role in the marriage that brought about alienation with their spouses.

It would be wonderful if Dr Harley can probe deeper into the psyche of those who are willfully blind, is it nature or nurture?

I have read some books that touched on the differences between men and women, some men just need a very traditional type of spouse, i.e. spouses who willingly go with their every whim, agree with their every word, make them feel like a king, etc., and I'm just not that type of woman.

It is choice. Nature and nurture are all in the past by the time an adult reaches adulthood.

A part of me want to believe that my husband is different from his divorced parents, he could see their "issues", but he is understandably tolerant towards them. I would find it extremely difficult to live with either of his parents, so it's my mistake to believe that K could turn out to be different.

This goes deep, and it is like a fortress or an armor around K, protecting and preserving his sense of himself. He can do no wrong, ever. It is up to those around him to come round to his point of view.

I guess I just have to acknowledge failure and leave. Either that or change myself into a doormat. It is just very hard because I so wanted a marriage, foolish me.

Are you filing for divorce?

I'm very troubled by your situation Gave2. You have moved to another city and left your children behind. You have not indicated a wish to divorce.

Is there someone else in your life?

No, I'm not filing for divorce, as I will be bringing my son to Germany to start school within this year or the next. It will make it easier for me to settle all the documentation.

Once my son is well-settled, and the separation reaches 2 years, I will begin the long process of filing for divorce.

I have moved to another city because we received a new contract from an existing, difficult and demanding client with poor taste, which my husband doesn't like to work on. This move is required for the fulfillment of this difficult contract, and provides some breathing space for me.

I dislike this project too, and would much prefer to work on another more interesting modern residential project I helped our office to secure, but I have to follow my husband's orders. He wants me out of the project that I like, he wants me to deal with the difficult project and client, I just have to take it, I just have to do it.

I feel it is unfair to me, but he doesn't see it that way.

Once and for all, I am NOT seeing anyone, though I wish I were. After 13 years of a pretty miserable existence, I do wish that I will have the good fortune to meet someone who actually cares for me.

I am very concerned about this plan. I believe your husband will fight you for custody and will likely win as he can present a case for you having abandoned your home and child. Your husband can easily prevent you taking the child overseas.

Generally NY courts will give primary custody to whichever parent is currently looking after the child unless there is a strong reason to change.

Divorce in NY can take up to 10 years. Mine took 6 years. He can destroy the marital assets while you are overseas. Filing does not protect the assets entirely but it does give you some protection.

There is no reason to wait two years if you have decided to divorce. The longer this current arrangement continues, the worse the outcome will be for you. File under the old fault law and do it now.

Actually as her boss, her husband is forcing her out of the country. That won't look good to a judge.

I do not see anything that a judge would consider forceful removal from the country. She is a qualified professional with the right to live in the US. A judge would see a move to Germany as voluntary.

So your son is with your H and you're in a different country?

Have you written Dr. Harley?

Happy Valentine's Day to all, with or without a spouse, we all have our special someone, our family, our dear friends and our children, there's love there to embrace on this day. I'm going to hug my kids tight!

We're a sort of a gathering of hurt spouses, aren't we? It's good to be here for each other, and to remind ourselves to look forward to a better life ahead without the suffering inflicted by those who have hurt us badly.

I'm not living in a different country, just a different city 2 hours away to work closer with the client's project. This is why I visit the children often, about every half a month.

They now spend almost all of their time in school, on their phones and computers. I miss them a lot, but there's also a sense that they are becoming more independent every day.

What's great is they love and respect me, and I don't feel any alienation from them.

My husband loves the children, and I think he won't hurt or harm me in any way, as it would hurt the kids.

He doesn't hate me, he is simply a Taker, it's just that he can't see that he is a Taker. There's a term for it, the Dunning-Kruger effect? I can't live with being a Giver all of my life and negate my needs. Our problems stem from our constant fighting because I am feeling crushed and depressed by what I feel is a raw deal of a marriage for me, the injustice of it. He wants me to accept him as he is, not fight for what I have articulated as my own needs.

As for our assets, I don't even know if we have any, or how much there is, etc. He never disclosed any finances of our office to me, the accountant is kept away and told not to talk to me, even though we are married and work in the same firm. He doesn't see a problem with keeping these things from me.

I have approached a Catholic organization that provides mediation and arbitration. I hope to avoid expensive lawyers as we slowly wind down our marriage and try to share responsibilities for the children. This not only preserves what little savings I have left for myself, it will be kinder on the kids.

One slow step at a time...no rush there into filing for divorce and engaging in custody fights. Even though I have checked out, I would like a soft landing as much as possible for this failing marriage.

Have you read what Dr. Harley says about the giver and taker?
The Giver and Taker

Yes, I have. To me, the spouse who has to give in all the time to the wishes, decisions and whims of the other spouse is the Giver. The spouse who controls and decides everything against the wishes, needs and views of the other is the Taker. However, what if the Taker refuses or cannot see that s/he is Taking?

This is where we are at, and there's no hope because even something as fundamental as objectivity in the marriage is not possible, i.e. the Taker refuses to accept that he has been Taking.

I am extremely depressed being the Giver, and I know that I will continue being the Giver in this marriage till the day I die. I need to live for myself, I have the right to my own life.

You do not have the correct understanding of Givers and Takers which is why you are feeling depressed. You might want to read up on this. Brainy posted the link to you. You are free to take MB advice or not but either way you will feel better once you understand the concepts.

Again, if you spent some time understanding MB you would see that this is a deeply flawed way to look at the world and you will take it with you into any future relationships.

Gave, honey, it's a rough thing, never learning how to say no. I hope you can try these things in the article out, learn to balance your giving nature with checking your own judgment, too. Taking an assignment away from your kids and only visiting every other week sounds like someone who really needs to take some time to think things through for yourself. Because if your H is telling you this is a good idea, you're putting his needs over your children's, to their detriment.

Have you ever read HNHN for Parents? Your kids need you to be there to teach them thoughtfulness. I would love to see you take these ideas to heart and think through what you want and bring your taker to the table and stop letting this man talk you out of parenting your kids

Perhaps I really don't understand what it means by a Giver or Taker, then please enlighten me.


To me, a Giver is someone who gives to make the other person happy, even when the Giver is himself/herself unhappy, or feel it's unfair.

The Taker is the one who gets his or her own way, even if his or her spouse is unhappy.

Please tell me what is the definition of a Giver or a Taker that is different from the above?

I understand that for a marriage to work, there has to be a balance between giving and taking, which is why a POJA needs to be implemented.

But what if the Taker refuses to see that s/he has been Taking and not Giving?

My husband won't compromise, won't discuss, won't negotiate. If I don't follow what he wants, it leads to terrible fights. He hangs up, shuts off, walks off, etc. He controls all the decisions, for the kids, for our finances, for the office, for everything. He even walked into obvious scams, I can only let him do whatever he wanted to do and then he learned his lessons.

One huge problem from the start of our marriage is his refusal to communicate AT ALL. If we can't communicate, even to talk about the rockiness of our marriage, to lay facts on the table, about what we can do to save it, etc., to arrive at a discussion about MB or the POJA, I honestly don't see how the marriage can work.

If I told him that our staff Ann pays for the rent, bills, food, clothes, etc. for her family, and not her husband, he would say that she is shouldering most of the familial burden and responsibilities.

But as I draw a modest salary from our office, similar to what Ann is making, and I use up all of this salary to pay for rent, food, bills, clothes, living expenses, etc., for our family, he is adamant that he's the one ultimately paying for household because he is paying me this salary from the office he runs, even though I shoulder a huge responsibility at work, delivering designs, guiding the team, meeting with the clients.

This is what he tells his parents and friends, and they are upset with me because I am not doing my part contributing to the household.

This is what I mean when I said we can't agree on facts.

I am working now in another city because I need to earn an income. I will be living off my savings otherwise. My husband doesn't give me any money.

Arrange a separation. See a lawyer.

A lawyer will inform your husband that 'his' salary is actually legally half yours.

A marital negotiation which relies on facts is doomed because you have different perspectives.

Your baseline for negotiations should be saying x,y or z bothers you and you require he desist out of respect for your feelings.

You should not try to convince him you are 'right'. Asserting a superior perspective or grasp of the facts is a disrespectful judgement.

Keep it about respect for your feelings on the matter.

Ah, I think he sees it the other way, my salary is half his, and his salary's all his.

As to how I feel about this, that is my problem, and my problem alone. If I'm not happy about it, go take a pill.

I absolutely do not talk about my feelings because that gets him running, hanging up and shutting me off. Our communication is zilch...I am talking much more on this thread than in the entirety of our marriage.

In a way, I had a distorted idea of "love" and "marriage" before coming across MB. I believed that I had to give to fulfill my responsibility to my vows, despite how I felt, and as predicted in MB, one day, I just revolted. This dawning hasn't helped to bring my husband to the table. If anything, we're farther apart than before.

It's ok, I have checked out, and although fearful of the future, I feel optimism in a way, for the first time after 13 years of marriage.

The truth is that your husband is a rotten businessman and he has relied on you to keep the business solvent. You have both refused to be honest about this by not discussing it. You need to own your part in this avoidance strategy. You should have calmly stated how you felt, rinse and repeat until he finally got the message that you were serious. You can still do this even now. The breakdown of your marriage is going to end in bankruptcy for him and financial disaster for all of you. He needs to know this.

Of course you got to a breaking point, everyone does. Unfortunately that did not bring your husband to his senses because you did not tell him. Don't you think it might be good to get this out in the open?

The reason you feel better now is simply because you are no longer having to deal with this on a daily basis but you are still running away from conflict.

I talk very well with my friends, with my kids, with my family, everyone except my husband.

I am not the one avoiding, he runs away every time I tried to talk to him.

For 13 years, I have been trying to talk to him and to communicate with him. He hates any form of talk that isn't trivial, he said "i love you" only a handful of times, in our marriage and never once for the past 8 years.

He talks really well with his pals, with the kids, with others.

He doesn't want to talk about why he doesn't want to talk.

We tried to see a therapist, we tried Alpha Marriage, nothing worked. He just hates to talk about anything except for trivia and stupid jokes. Or to talk about other people, he is so critical of others.

My husband just doesn't want to talk to me. It isn't possible to have a marriage with zero communication.

He doesn't see it as a problem.

This is why i gave up, I need a companion in life. I need comforting, I need love, I am not getting any in this marriage from my husband.

He is incapable of doing anything at all for me. He isn't interested either.

You dont know that he is "incapable of doing anything" for you.
That is your opinion.

Tons of disrespectful judgements starting with the title of your thread. Do you see that?

Nobody is obligated to use MB methods, in fact most people in the world do not. But I guarantee you that you will not what you want - a companion in life, be comforted and be loved unless you stop both the disrespect and the dishonesty.

The next marriage will degrade in exactly the same way. There is no magic here, it is just a question of understanding your part in what went wrong.

Don't you think that you are also judging me? I don't even know you and you have a ton of opinions about me already. You even know what will be the outcome for my "next marriage", as if you knew that I will or will not get married again?

Why do you feel it's ok to judge me, but not ok for me to judge my husband? I have had 12 years of paying for him and the whole family without a word of thanks, but plenty of abuse from him, to base my judgment on.

What makes you think I am "dishonest"? What lies did I tell?

No matter, the marriage is ended for me, I am learning to move on in life and try to find my own lifeboat. I am no longer thinking of him, but for the two kids.

I arrive at this opinion after futilely trying for 12 years. I have asked for very little, for him to pay for half of household after paying 100% for many years, for him not to spend the money I have helped to make on what I judged correctly to be scams or drain on our resources. I never received a birthday present from him except on 2 occasions, never any anniversary presents, never asked for them either. I don't ask him for gifts, deeds or help. I only ask that he respects my views and opinions, and he could not do that. So I no longer know what he is "capable of doing for me".

I am holding an olive branch out to him to work together for the kids. We both need to care for them and to raise them properly, regardless of what happened to the marriage. He is a loving father, though too indulgent for the children's own good, I believe in loving but firm boundaries, but as long as he cares for them, this can be worked out.

The marriage though, only works when there's love left in it.

You have come to a forum on marriage building techniques developed by Dr. HARLEY for advice. That is what gives forum posters the right to speak frankly with you.
Disrespectful judgements in marriage are a love buster but on a forum where you ask for advice they are not.

Well my ex wife made similar statements about me being "incapable" of showing love.
I personally hated being belittled by her.
Unless he has a diagnosed mental disorder he probably is capable of being a good husband. But making statements that he isnt will not help you.

If I am judged "dishonest" by living_well I would like to be shown the evidence that I have indeed been dishonest before I will accept this judgment.

I will admit that I have lost respect for my husband because of the reasons I provided.

I'm traveling but will give you a response tomorrow, I'm not avoiding you!

I am open to advice but not unfair judgment. I have suffered from an abusive relationship with my controlling husband who has made decisions for my life, who has dismissed my feelings, who neglected me, who expects me to be the Giver in the marriage, and who changes and shifts the facts on the ground so he is never in error and I am never right.

I would like to leave and live again. I am at the point where I expect fairness, not judgment, because I have lost a lot in this marriage, and I fear very much for my and my children's future.

I understand there might be no solution except separation, which is why I posted under this heading.

Do I want to save the marriage? I do, but not at any cost, i.e., I need a very changed man, someone who will at least talk to me and agree to negotiate and share decision-making and if it is not possible, then yes, I do wish to divorce, because I simply can't go on living this way, I feel as if I am a slave to my husband's dictates, someone who cannot have her views, needs and feelings considered. Someone who has to consent to making decisions which she know to be wrong because her husband insisted, and who has to shoulder all the consequences of his decisions.

Please don't tell me I have to learn to communicate with my husband, because he simply would NOT communicate.

I have been frantically doing all the reading, the researching, to see how I can do it better, etc., and in the end, I still get nowhere.

I am no longer willing to continue this way.

I simply cannot give anymore than I have given, and I have started to resent my husband, whom I have come to regard as my tormentor, whether he meant to be, he simply *is*.

Perhaps another woman can accept this personality, a submissive one probably would.

Unfortunately, I am not one who willingly gives up my life or my children's lives for my husband.

Are you going to separate? What is your plan?

Have you emailed Dr. Harley?

I do wish to separate, but I will lose any influence over my children's lives if I leave.

This is my predicament.

I did email, but have received no reply.

Tbh, I don't know why I am posting on here...what do I expect from posting on here? Am I expecting sympathy? In the end, as my friends have told me, I can only change myself, I can't change my husband.

I had a good talk with a friend yesterday, she told me "Meekness is strength." I am trying that, but I am not good at "taking it on the chin", so to speak, when my husband unleashes his tirades.

When did you email Dr. Harley? Try emailing again and notify the MODS so they can let Dr. Harley know.

Thank you, I might do that. Meanwhile, is it better for me to delete this thread in case my husband consents to come here?

I think I don't need to save the marriage, but I would like a POJA about my children's future.

Gave2Much, I just reread your thread from the beginning and I recommend you do the same. You were given some terrific advice by Mel and Jedi right at the outset. Why did you not follow it? You posted again and again about how bleak your situation is even though nobody here needed convincing but you have never taken any of the suggestions about how to make your situation better.

Please know that many of us have been in the deep despair you feel right now. Many, but not all, have been able to save their marriages. Indeed some marriages should not be saved.

So to your question. Here goes :-)

Marriage Builders is all about respect and putting your marriage above everything else. You tell us that you can communicate with everyone except your husband. Can you see the problem here? It is essential that you be able to communicate with your husband. Marriages that are not based on MB principles degrade over time. The deterioration is usually slow as bad habits form. I have a hard time believing that you and your husband did not communicate when you were dating. Women do not fall in love with people they cannot communicate with. What usually happens is that communication dries up when it becomes unsafe meaning that one or both spouses starts to be disrespectful.

Then the disrespected spouse dries up. He or she becomes less and less communicative until all that is left is what is essential for life.

You have been called out many times on the disrespectful way you refer to your husband on your thread starting with its title.

So your husband has dried up meaning that he refuses any communication with you.

Dr Harley says that if you cannot bring your spouse on board with MB, you go into plan B after a short plan A. You spend a couple of weeks eliminating all your bad behaviors and being the best wife you can be. At the end of that time you look your husband in the eye and say that you want a romantic marriage based on love and respect and ask if he is willing to give this a try.

For some spouses this may be enough to give it a try. Some will pretend to give it a try, it does not take long to see the difference and some will still not come on board. For that group, Dr Harley recommends plan B where you separate and go completely dark. The idea is to give your spouse a taste of what it will be like for him if you divorce him whilst protecting what is left of your feelings for him.

If your spouse only married you for the right to live and work in USA, he will be perfectly happy to go into plan B and it will be very helpful for you to know this.

But essential to plan B is that you make it clear to your spouse what you are doing and that he knows that the door is open for recovery if he so decides. You own your part in getting into the bad place you are in and you make it clear to him that there is a path to recovery if both are willing and that you are prepared to do your part.

You did not do this. You left both your husband AND CHILDREN telling them that you were taking an assignment in another city. You never told him that you were leaving him because his behavior was making you miserable. You never gave him a path to recovery. Your dishonesty was one of omission (which I said in an earlier posting to you). You claim to us that you have left your husband because of his behavior but have told him and your children that you have relocated for work.

You tell us that you are going for a legal separation/divorce but you have not told him of your plan, let alone told him why.

Your dishonesty is called plan C around here. It does not work.

Sorry I forgot my computer cable and can only log in through iPhone sporadically . I understand where you are coming from. My situation has been going on for 13 years now, I was in Plan A some of the time when we went for marriage Counseling and courses, but they didn't seem to work.

It might be difficult to believe but in fact my husband and I didn't talk a lot from the beginning about personal matters and feelings. We talked a lot about the topics of our work, about society, etc. after the chilled arrived, we talked about raising them. He gets extremely agitated and needs to flee as if it is very painful to talk about "us", the two of us in this marriage, no matter how I tried to get him to talk. He avoids spending any time alone with me, he is on his iPhone and computer all the time, not only playing games. However, he is unlikely on porn sites as he really doesn't show any sexual interest in me or other women. I have asked him gently and nicely if he is gay on many occasions, I would support him to come out if he were gay, but he said no.

I offered many times to spend alone time together, he simply doesn't want to. My situation is very much like Sue L is the other thread about divorce consideration.

I know he has a difficult childhood, his parents are divorced and his mom neglects him at home when he was young. He had to take care of her when she came home late after dating or parties. This is why I wonder if he doesn't understand that he is doing the same to me?

So Plan A was on and off in our marriage. Our interaction became increasingly negative as I have tried every method I can think of to approach my husband. I tried to share my research, my books, MB with him to no avail.

This is my effort to save the marriage. In work, kids, finances, decisions, we are very different in our thinking and often clash. He gets his way most if the time, especially where it comes to finances and work. I resent it very much because it means I have to shoulder the burden and suffer the consequences of the poor outcome without any say.

He is a very caring person to others, eg when an acquaintance he knows is depressed over academic pressures, he spent a lot if time with him and his parents to help him. He is this type of Good Samaritan, yet when I am depressed, he couldn't show any care or interest, just told me to "Take a pill for ...sakes!". He talks to me in a way that he will never to others.

I had a long talk with my friends who also know him. We all thought he loves me because he wanted me to stay in the marriage, I am the one who wants to leave. However, I have started asking if it's "love" or a box he had ticked "married". Have we both confused his "need" for "love"? Does he need me in order to have someone at home he can neglect, he can rekindle the misery of his childhood family?


I have communicated many times, via emails and SMS that I will leave, if things do not improve. He just said "Go! If you want to just go!"

I am in Plan B but it's with a very weary attitude and heart because I cannot imagine that H will change into a man who would fulfil his marriage vows, after so many futile years. As he acted caring towards others, I assumed he would be caring towards me. He could articulate what was wrong with his parents marriage but he couldn't see he is acting the same towards me.

Just getting to agreeing on the facts is a big struggle with my husband. I am too tired to try anymore as it has been a very very painful marriage. It was a mistake for two people who are so different to get into this union. I do wish to reach a POJA about raising the kids, but I can for see it might not be possible based on past interaction with H. He simply opposes every idea or suggestion and proposes something opposite to my approach. Like I said, I can only leave, I can only decide for myself.

This is not hard for me to believe, because I have experienced it. You feel constantly disillusioned and it is difficult to explain to someone who hasn't been in your shoes. My take is...

1. You husband doesn't understand that marriage is a
"relationship of extraordinary care" as Dr. Harley would say. (And this includes EMOTIONAL care as well.)

2. Once you are married, you both become each others' problem. That is why you can talk and connect enough to get married, but then after marriage, your combined conflict resolution skills were lacking. You also bear the brunt of each others' actions. Your husband avoids conflict, struggles with perspective taking and cannot emotionally tolerate when you have a problem or when you disagree. But he is not incapable. He CAN learn. (Along with goes that maybe your way of complaining needs some work.)

3. He probably is not gay. But he doesn't know how to safely let you meet his need for Sexual Fulfillment. Some considerations are porn addiction, masturbation, anxiety, low testosterone.

4. See next post.

I started this program with similar thinking to yours. There were years worth of unresolved issues and my nerves were fried. It is not easy, but I believe that it is possible to change things when you change the rules of engagement and the method of relating.

You will both need to give up the "agreeing to facts" concept and learn to consider your spouse's perspective. Only then can marital progress be made. Also, any two people, especially men and women ARE different. It's not how different you are, but how you accommodate those differences with mutually enthusiastic solutions. I know how much of a long shot that seems for you. You may have even adopted his method of communicating over the facts because you felt you had no other choice.

You are tired, so you are bowing out to avoid the conflict. That is better at least than having angry outbursts. What doesn't add up to me is that you are leaving your kids behind. Isn't that something that negatively impacted your husband growing up? Your kids still need your love and attention. You cannot be replaced by your husband. I know that you are tired, but they need to see good behavior to model!
Don't expect to POJA kids' stuff. You guys will not magically find POJA skills after divorce. Using the courts is an expensive way to do it, even though it might work.

You have already tried to introduce MB to no avail. I recommend that you are honest with him about why you are withdrawing. Also, from now on, ONLY communicate about your marriage or complaints via EMAIL. All verbal communication should be positive or neutral. It will help him to feel good when he sees you. It will prevent you from being disrespectful. It will give him time to process your thoughts and respond. (I wish that I would have done that, btw.)

If you want to reintroduce MB, maybe do it in the form of an email letter with an attachment to an article that explains what you are trying to say.

Hope this gives you something to think about...

Know that you are not alone.

You posted that you are in plan B.
When did you enter plan B?
Did you send a plan B letter?
Do you have an intermediary?

Thank you so much Didn'tQuit. Your user name tells me you tougher it out and succeeded, I am happy for you!

Everything you said makes a lot of sense. I think I looked into the abyss that is our differences and I feel quite hopeless about the marriage. There is a mistaken perception on the thread that I left on my own volition, in fact I left because of the addendum contract's demand, and the fact that my husband told me to leave the other projects in the office. There was a really nice housing project I was keen to work on but H didn't want me involved after a couple of meetings with the client. I remember leaving the office in tears after another fight, saying "Ok, I will take the hotel contract and leave the housing contract as you asked." If I want to earn an income, I have to take this current hotel contract, a difficult one, and I have to hire new staff and quickly set up an operation with computers and other hardware in this city 2 hours away from home.

H of course denied he ever said to leave, he said I left him and the children. Unless I go through the lawyers, I won't see any alimony or child support from him, he made it very clear. He told me "my parents told me fortunately they didn't give me anything because you will take everything from me."

I don't know how to take this any more. I know we can't agree on facts, but his reality is so different from mine, I feel hopeless. I found out recently that he signed a partnership without me knowing with someone else in France. I know French and he doesn't. To my alarm, I spotted a phrase on the legal document that could commit us to more work than was agreed on based on his understanding. I was understandably upset that he would do this without informing me, what if the new partnership/project/contract goes bad and I, as one of the company directors, become entangled and liable?

When I raised this, instead of apologising for hiding something so important from me, or looking into correcting the issue, he gave an old contract(in French) that I had vetted and OKed to this new French partner who then proceeded to lie to him that there were many disadvantages I had allowed in the contract to somehow prove that I am incompetent to read contracts. In fact, this new French partner is not telling the truth, this contract I vetted secured interest payment for us if the counter party delayed payment, etc., but how can a husband trust a new acquaintance more than his wife?

I just don't know what to say, I'm just speechless ...

I just don't want anymore of this craziness... This is not a sick competition, we are not to be against each other, when I see the clause/phrase I was alarmed at our liabilities and obligations, it wasn't a one-upmanship to "prove" something, and then to have my husband turn around and tried to prove me incompetent with the help of this new acquaintance who then proceeded to lie to him that I allowed a very bad contract to be signed by our company.... And my husband found a perverse pleasure in proving me "wrong", "incompetent", etc.

Yet this entire marriage is a "rivalry" in everything as seen from the eyes of my husband, from work to family to kids.

I suffered too much. Like I said, I just want an end and a stop to this.

Jedi Knight, I tried to introduce MB to my husband but he didn't bother to go into it or read it. He treated all of my marriage improvement research, reading, courses, all the same way.

I didn't tell him exactly that this was Plan B because he would need to understand what it meant. At the same time, even as I started to plant my leaving, I have already decided in the deepest of my heart that I really don't want this marriage anymore, but to look into how to make it easier for the kids. We will never stop fighting, I will never understand his thinking, I can't imagine his psyche. I feel ill that he us always looking to attack me, or he sees an attack where none is meant, eg spotting a problem in the contract he signed is to him a great disrespect to be punished. I don't know how to explain what marriage is like with such a person.

He does not need to know what it means for you to be in Plan B. However, you are not in Plan B. You are in Plan C for Catastrophe.

You are not in plan b.
plan B is a very specific plan for separation during a spouses affair.
You are separated from your husband working out of town.
Based on following your thread for some time, I suggest you write to Dr Harley and ask if he recommends divorce. You can email him at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.
Alternatively, you could also speak with Steve Harley (click Marriage Coaching link on website) for a plan to save your marriage through separation.

Trying to make things easier for the kids will often be futile given your husband's behavior. You need a plan and then pull the trigger. There is no way you can control the outcome by thinking about it ad naseum and there will never be any resolution if you don't take action.

It can also be used as a last ditch option to turn around a reluctant spouse. Of course it also has to be done properly which is not the case here.

Have you seen this?
BSs...... Poland C is not a Plan

Gave, stop letting this man manipulate you and think you have no choices. POJA means you are one of the spouses and if you are not enthusiastic, stop! Stop teaching your kids that it's okay to let a spouse dictate to you what you should do, without speaking up. That the triad isn't worth it. Learn how to protect yourself from that without agreeing to see your kids once every other week I am so sad for you and I don't see you getting any better or healthier.

If you wanted to start living a life of integrity and making your own decisions, what resources are available to you to support you in this? Have you written to Dr. Harley yet about how you let your H talk you into leaving town for 2 years and giving up custody of your kids for that length of time?

Sorry for the absence. Had some problems with my computer and it's difficult to access via my phone.

Work is crazy, staff are not following instructions, etc., I'm really working 9-8pm, cooking, cleaning, sleeping...I tried to Facetime with my kids whenever I could.

I don't think my husband wants me to give up custody because he loves the kids and sees the advantage of my emotional and support for them. There is no benefit to him to cut me off from the kids, except schadenfreude...ah, another word invented by the Germans.

In fact, he wants me to help to pay for their school fees and future college tuition fees. I won't receive any alimony, he has an accountant who has helped him hide whatever profits he has earned, and I was stupid enough to agree not to ever meet this accountant.

I'm so frustrated he has also talked my friends into persuading me to foot school fees of $1800 a month for my son's private high school, for my flailing son! I want to save up to afford my own apartment some day, and for the college tuition of *both* children. It's his fault for deciding we should all live in an insanely expensive city, where the public school system is unsuitable for my son.

I was having a good talk with a visiting friend over dinner the night before. She is in a similar situation, perhaps worse abuses, though her ex Husband supported the family while I supported mine. There were so many parallels, it was uncanny.

In the end, all we could do is forgive them, understand they are what they are, they were formed by their families long before we married them after a whirlwind romance. Neither of us feel they would change, and we refuse to suffer any longer in a bad marriage to men who deflect all their frustrations, all their anger, all the unpleasantness, sacrifices and inconveniences in their lives to their wives. We're just punching bags and work slaves at their disposal. Unfortunately, they are unable to "see" this is what they are like.

I went back to see the kids and we all took the kids out together. I didn't know at that time but my son gave his wallet to H for safe-keeping. Later, when he asked H for his wallet, H insisted that he gave it to me. I repeated many times that H did not hand the wallet to me, I showed H my bag, etc. At a certain point, H reached into his own pocket and found the wallet.

This is a small matter, but it is an illustration what life is like with H, everyday.

His automatic reaction is to heap the troubles, problems and blame he encounters on me. It is always me, first, who is to be blamed, no matter how trivial or serious the matter. No matter what goes wrong, he finds a way to protect himself and shift the responsibility and blame onto me, it is his default mode. I can't argue with that. The onus is always on me to prove my innocence of what he accused me of.

This is why I don't even want to try to mend the marriage. I don't even hold it against H that he is hell-bent on protecting himself at all cost at my expense, it's his nature. If I could act this way and get away with it, perhaps I would too. Why not keep the best for oneself, and throw the bad at one's spouse? My only solution is to get out of his way.

I would like to talk to Dr Harley about the path forward, but I am pessimistic about mending the marriage. I simply don't want to. Talking to my friend helps, I am not alone, we both did our best, we tried to hang in there till we couldn't take it any longer.

We also understand we can't dwell on the past. Towards our husbands, we can only forgive and try our darnedest to be compassionate. They are both good fathers. We can remove ourselves but we must do what's best for the kids, so we have decided to avoid ugly court battles that deplete both parties and deal with the separation one day at a time until all of us found our way.

I do want to add that distance, emails and text messages did make our communication less fraught, even though we are communicating about neutral matters such as work issues, kids' school performance, etc. He seems to have buried himself in work, we're both doing that.

I think this is a good idea. You can't fail with free advice from an expert.

Let us know when you hear back from the Harleys.

I just want to let you know that I'm reading the thread over and over again to gather my thoughts. I am crazy busy with delivering work, dealing with unscrupulous counterparties, etc. and having a small operation scheduled to boot...so I am taking my time to go about this.

I can't overcome my desire to separate from my husband, this is why I don't even want to try for Plan B. I just don't love him anymore, and never felt the slightest love from him for most of our marriage. This is why I try to imagine how our marriage dynamics could change but I can't, it's been 13 years living with a certain personality, I have serious doubts about change.

I don't know why but I feel hopeless about H and I have given up. I feel too tired to try anymore. Just too tired and convinced deep inside me there isn't any hope.

His parents are so old and yet still so easily angered, demanding and difficult to live with, there's little wisdom that one associates with the older and wiser. They have promoted strife between H and I rather than helped us with our difficulties. Age has not mellowed them. I can't help thinking that what I see will be what I'm getting - their son will likely be the same in future as well.

Life is short, I really have to think hard about my and my family's future.

I can visualize a more idyllic and less stressful life, I don't mind working hard and living frugally, but life has to have some meaning and joy.

I can see it but it's not coming true...it's not a vision shared by H, I don't know what he sees in this life he has decided to lead for himself, but it satisfies some need in him. I can respect his wish to live as he decides. However, what he wants and decides is absolute hell for me.

I am postponing the inevitable for as long as I can. I have accepted that K is like this, won't change much, and I have few options left and trying to take the least harmful for the kids.

Did you do this?

Not yet....I'm now preoccupied by a potentially big health problem...I'll update when I receive more news...so unhappy...

I am presently separated because my husband was abusive and did not contribute financially to anything although he was working and had a pension monthly. Now I hear he is telling people he is pretty done with me and trying to slander my name. What should I do?

Have you gone to the police? Spoke to a lawyer?

Also, I would start your own thread so yours doesn't get burried here on someone else's thread.

Update?

Update: I'm still living and working in the city 2 hours away from H and the 2 kids. Work has been tough, delivering the desired results to Client though slow and stressful, as I am still managing a new setup and a new team.

H's office is now almost deserted, one staff left, and he is moving to a new office as the lease is up.

I still don't understand why he would spend $$$ on renting an office space with no new projects coming in, but I am used to his wastefulness.

Money just gets drained....I have to stop worrying about it, as it just results in grief and worry to myself.


H has sent vicious phone texts that are hurtful and ridiculous, accusing me of wrecking the office, accusing me of being "sweet" to my current staff and mean to the previous staff because I wanted to hurt him and his office, telling me my delivery to the Client is severely inadequate and scaring me that I am not fulfilling the contracts even though Client likes the designs, etc.

At one point, on my daughter's birthday, I was just so devastated by the pining for my kids, stressed out by work, under-performing colleagues and difficult Client, so hurt and damaged by fresh new vicious accusations from H that I took a day off to cry in my apartment.

I nearly broke down and thoughts of suicide entered my mind.

H's father passed away 3 days ago and I'm now back home taking care of my kids while he traveled back to Germany.

I am taking the opportunity to have a break and also to read up more about personality disorders and co-dependency while the kids are in school and H in Germany.

Both arise out of the same types of dysfunctional families like mine and H's, I became what I am and H became what he is, and we were both fatally attracted like human magnets, ying and yang, etc.

I have been so drained by H, I have to try to move as far away as possible one day.

Work is difficult, I hate it, but it could open some doors.

So I am asking myself if I would like to pursue an open door for my own career taking off in a city I dislike or if I should pursue greater inner peace and happiness as my priority, which could mean I won't get to become a professional designer anymore, but live in a more idyllic, calmer city?

I have given up on any thoughts about saving the marriage and H. I can see that H has grown up in a very dark place, his parents scare the daylights out of me, he has been shaped by his own familial upbringing. However, I must first save myself, I have my own problems of growing up as a co-dependent. I have to learn to accept love and refuse unhealthy and abnormal relationships like the one with H.

You would be using your time far more effectively if you spent it learning about MB.

Nobody is telling you that you have to stay in a marriage that makes you miserable, quite the opposite but since you started posting, all you have done is complain about your finances and be incredibly disrespectful towards your husband. When you are called out on this, you just ignore it.

MB has plan A and plan B for your situation. Neither involve blogging or disrespect.

I am amazed that the mods have not closed down your thread.

living_well, I am replying to the poster who asked for an update of my situation.

If you dislike this thread, and do not wish to see it, kindly stay away and refrain from any interaction on this thread.

Did you talk to the Harleys?

I did email to the email address but have received no reply so far.

Since I am unsure if I even want to be with H, I don't know how to approach this.

I'm trying to clear my mind, I am trying to understand what has been going on throughout our marriage, a lot of it, especially the controlling, the cruelty, the incessant lies, the bizarre accusations and blaming really messed with me.

There was no love, and in his own words, he used to love me many many years ago until I proved unworthy of his love!

I do function better without much contact with H, somewhat normal, at least not constantly in despair, though sometimes startled by the fact that I'm truly alone and on my own now, and sad as I miss my kids terribly.

Update on health...not good, early stages of a potentially big problem later.

Email them again and if you don't get a response in a couple of days (they usually respond pretty quickly) then notify the MODS so they can notify the Harleys.

If the marriage is affecting your health then you really need to look into separating.

She has separated.
But the issue is that she does not have a plan.

Yes I know this, and she hasn't got a plan and that's why she needs a plan.

And her "separation" is because of her job. And she is living away from her children.

Yes, you are all quite right. Other than taking the work opportunity to separate from H, I don't have a plan.

I don't want to appear as abandoning my children.

I'm so sorry that the drama has caught up with me and I waste energy on breaking down often. Thank you for your support.

For a long time, I was hoping that a light bulb will just turn on in H and he will "see" that it's not right to do a lot of things he has done to me, eg. not letting me have a say, treat every disagreement as an attack, hiding important decisions from me, spending money like water.

Nothing ever works because he refuses to talk, and if he does, will again turn everything around, change the facts, gaslighting, accusing me and blaming me, etc.

If he can't even face the truths honestly then I don't even have the basic "reality framework" to even discuss POJA.

This is why I am puzzled and trying to understand what I am dealing with in H. My friends who are trying to help find him sympathetic and are all suspicious of me, my facts and my sanity until I show them evidence, eg. his SMS.

H accuses me of the very things I described here, the changing of facts, gaslighting, of mental instability, of Machiavellian plotting, of narcissism, etc.

I can only say that I don't have any reason to lie here, it's anonymous after all!

This is why I prefer divorcing, it's just so much hardwork trying to untangle this mess, I don't wnat to deal with H anymore.

It's rare to deal with someone who projects, and who is entirely convinced of another reality.

This gaslighting is the most difficult aspect of dealing with H, and this is the one that drives me crazy as I am on the defensive constantly to prove that I'm not the crazy one.

I will write to Dr Harley again about this, after I figure out what to do, divorce, separate or work on the marriage.

This site has helped in understanding many marital difficulties, I m reading other threads with great interest as well.

To be fair to H, everyday affairs with him are fine, eg. cooking, cleaning, taking the kids out, though he must have the last word and instruction on how things should be done. He is a responsible man in many ways, sweet and charming when he made an effort, which is why I stayed.

However, where the big issues that adversely affect our lies are concerned, eg. marital rights, love, finances, work partnerships, life decisions such as where to live and buying a home, I am up against a brick wall and caved in to vicious fighting, and then when my predictions turned out right, I'm "rewarded" with a revision of history that completely contradicts the facts so that they were all my malicious intent, poor decisions and my fault.

Another important point is that I'm told over and over again that my views and his views are equally valid, but what if my views are based on what really happened, but his views are based on a fictitious account he made up to protect himself from admitting to any wrongdoing?

If I am upset because X happened, but he denied that X happened, but that the opposite, Y, happened, how do we even interact on an everyday basis?

To give an example out of the countless everyday events, I was against him renting an expensive office but he went ahead and incurred losses. He would then change the facts and insisted that it was me who wanted to rent an expensive office, so he did it because I was pushing for it. Tell me what should I do?

There is only one fact but in marriage two perspectives.

There were two perspectives about X, I was against it, H was for it.

This is where I agreed with everyone that there are two perspectives.

However, H then claimed that I was for X all along that's why he did X.

How is that "perspective"? That changed the fact, the truth, the reality, that "I was against X" to "I was for X" so H could escape any responsibility for his decision and place the blame on me when X brought about calamnity!

This is no longer about "differing perspectives", this is about honesty, truth and reality vs elaborate lies about what actually happened.

I objected to X, always objected to X, fought with H over X, and then when things went bad because of X, suddenly the facts changed and I was "for X" all along?


Frankly, this is what messes me up, what I would consider "gaslighting", a denial of my reality, and abusive as it torments the victim. I refuse to accept that I am the crazy one who keeps getting my reality wrong.

I have never had such "reality problems" with any family members, friends or ex-boyfriends, only H.

Imagine your spouse had an affair, you found out, you two fought about it, and then later your spouse claimed he or she never had an affair and you imagined it all, you're crazy claiming he or she had an affair.

I would rather leave such a person than to be tormented into thinking I am a crazy person.

I don't know how anyone sane can live with that.

I'm also very tired trying to explain what I am experiencing.

My ex spouses did have an affair and lied about it. I know how it feels to be lied to.
But you aren't dealing with an affair.
Your marriage could be saved if you were both willing to follow Dr. HARLEYS methods

I am impressed that you are willing to save your marriage with your WW.

As long as there's a way to reconcile and change to follow the rules of MB, I think it might work.

It is hard for anyone who hasn't dealt with someone like H to understand my dilemma.

Imagine your wife and you fought over OM, she not only did not apologize, she turned it round and blamed you for your neglect leading to her affair, and then a few weeks later she said she never had an affair, it was your own paranoia, over active imagination, and perhaps *you* had an affair and tried to turn the tables on her, etc.

Is she "lying"? But it's her version of events versus yours, and yours is just "another perspective", she is entitled to hers.

Your first reaction would be disbelief, and likely asked, "What??? We even fought over your cheating after I found the evidence and you're now denying any of that happened? And you're saying I was paranoid for suspecting you?!"

You now find yourself the party who was wrong and on the defensive.

It doesn't matter if you started frantically piecing together "evidence", she had ways of explaining them away and she tells everyone you're crazy and paranoid.

Unless WW admitted to the affair, accepted that she was wrong, apologized and agreed to work on marriage, how can you move forward with MB?

My husband and I fought over other important issues, but the results were as I described. I have grown to truly loathe him for doing this "gaslighting" to me all the time to avoid giving me acknowledgment for my giving and sacrifices, to escape responsibility for any mistakes he might have committed.

This is why I'm desperately trying to understand what this is, and I wonder if MB can even work with my situation.

I feel much better on my own and not arguing with someone about what truly happened all the time. I also find it easier to deal with logical people, whether or not you agree with each other, as there is at the minimum a "framework" upon which to base the discourse.

You seem to want to ignore what should be your own lightbulb moment and truths.


Well I'm calling bull on this...you are not puzzled or trying to understand what you are dealing with. You know yet don't want to make a decisive decision so instead you remain in Limbo Hell.


See...you are not puzzled or don't understand what you are dealing with.

black_raven, you're right and I'm in Limbo Hell.

If H is unable to have an honest conversation, and if he will always insist it's my problem, I don't know what to do except to separate for now.

I am also fearful that H is too rooted in what he is to be able to change to someone I can partner with for the next decades together.

Our past interaction would be horrible crazy fighting, and then a period of charming and winning me back and then it all started again.

I feel this is too big for me to handle, especially when H refuses to even admit to this pattern of behavior, I can't even begin.

Hi Gave-

Of course it is your decision to decide how to move forward with your life.

I want you to know that you are not alone. I experienced this very thing for many years. It did nearly drive me crazy and I became a very angry insane person.

So, I will give you my perspective, as one who lived with these types of interactions for over 20 years, and from my perspective after being in the MB online program and wasting time making mistakes in how I dealt with this problem.

1. Any conflict should immediately go into a "do nothing" stance and be discussed and agreed to IN WRITING. Avoid the temptation to work it out verbally. You have been there, done that. You CAN'T deal with him the same as others without that problem. Email is a good option. You can do this presently in the marriage. Isn't that what the courts do? Start now. Any communications/agreements about finances, kids, or business should be IN WRITING!! This is not to be unreasonable, but more because written communication is a better format to show when there are differences in understanding. It is the first step to breaking his habit of a "difference of recollection of the past". This method bypasses all of that.

2. When he disagrees about the past record of events, just say "I don't accept that." and walk away. DON'T ARGUE! Don't get upset, and don't move forward. Tell him to write you about it if he would like to communicate further. (I know, this is VERY difficult to do.)

3. Try to remember that even though writing things out takes way more time, in the long run you will save time. No more circular conversations. No more repeats. He may still forget, rewrite history or gaslight, but you can point him to the email record at that point.

4. Try not to judge Why he has this problem. It IS a problem. Whether it is a mood disorder, personality disorder, lack of proper childhood training, mind blindness, forgetfulness or just plain meanness, doesn't really matter. If you are both forced to solve the problem differently, you can learn a different way of approaching it.

5. (Brace Yourself) Part of the problem is that you have allowed yourself to continue dealing with him in the same way over and over instead of finding some other way that works. I understand that he doesn't deal with conflict in a productive way, but You are not dealing with Him in a productive way. It is not fair, maybe, but you can't keep doing the same thing and get different results. It would be nice if he could see his role in the problem, but he can't. The first step, is to back away from unproductive conversations and to ask him to take it to email format where you emotions are less likely to impact the outcome and where you can both get more clarity of perspective.

5. When the circular language starts, let him know KINDLY with a SMILE that the conversation is becoming unproductive and unpleasant for you. That you would like to go to email format or revisit sometime when the tone changes. And WALK AWAY!!!!! Remember that arguing over the past, is UNPRODUCTIVE and what REALLY matters is the Present and Future. Try to move the conversation to "So MOVING FORWARD...how can we solve this problem together in a way that is MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL?"

Whether you decide to divorce or to give your marriage a chance, you can put these ideas into practice.

Your husband has no skills for conflict resolution, and resorting to his style won't ever work. I'm not saying that you are, but even meeting him halfway on the arguing table is still joining in the argument. So YOU need to do it differently since he doesn't see his own problem. It may not be fair, but it is the reality that I know you face.

If you decide that you don't want to divorce, I would follow the suggestion someone gave long ago, and write him a letter explaining your problems in the marriage. You will need a MB coach like me and my husband did. Ideally, a wife should be able to tell each other where there's a problem, and get action. You might try emailing the radio show and seeing if you could get your husband on with Dr. Harley and Joyce.

To answer your question about whether MB can work in your situation...

YES. It is the ONLY thing that I know of that can work. But it will take time, and he has to at least be willing. Many posters here have given you suggestions about how you could help him get motivated. But what you are doing right now with the way you separated won't help with that. I understand the whole "being undermined" at work thing. I understand that you needed a break. I get it. But as you can see, as long as you are bound together by marriage, children and business, your dysfunctional dealings with him will still make you miserable and affect your health. Staying married with no change, in my opinion, is not a good option. Get help, or get a divorce.

I know that I have repeated myself lots of times and could have edited, but no time. I hope this helps. You are not alone.

I should have worded this "my perspective after wasting time making mistakes and then being in the MB online program". Just to clarify, the MB online program has not been a waste of time.

Hi Didn'tQuit,

It helps tremendously.

I'm studying the methods you described and I'm going to try to put them into practice.

I still have to deal with H, whether or not I want to remain married to him, and he is the father of my children.

I am still leaning on the divorce side of things, I really cannot take him anymore.

He considers me working on the current project and the future fees I will receive from this Client "alimony"! I won't get a cent more!

I do recognize he is likely a victim of his own past, but I will leave that to the professionals though I hope he will seek help for our sake.

I feel better without him, of course I do miss the better side of him, but I'm getting stressed and my health could be hitting a crisis soon. I don't feel I can waste any more years of my life.

I feel I am sick psychologically to have put up and fought over so many futile useless battles and subjecting, me, my children, even H to the struggles.

There have never been any point to any of those.

Thank you for the clear and firm steps.

I have always been tempted by the idea of my husband "healing", but it remains a fantasy of mine. I'm trying not to be too bitter about these futile attempts in the past, can't bring back time.

But I have lost all stamina or interest in the salvation of this marriage, the thread does help me to clear my mind and let go of my fantasies of the light bulb moment in H, etc.

As the famous President said, "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...ops!"

I'm responsible in many ways for my own current state because of my own feeble mindedness.

Gave-
I think you need to reread your entire thread before making decisions.

Just like you I had been worked over and pushed to a breaking point where I resorted to unreasonable methods of interaction with my spouse when problems arose. I must tell you that without the proper rules, all marriages reach that place, one way or another.

Your working under the conditions which your husband considers alimony is sending him the green light toward his alimony plan. Your actions are showing agreement. Don't let your good will show up in a place that does more harm than good. Trying to keep the business issues from backfiring is a form of control and it keeps him from seeing them. By moving forward, you are part of the problem. Don't be so quick to help him solve problems. You are confusing things and even though you think that you are being helpful, in a way, you might be communicating the DJ that he can't take care of business.

And...
Just a reminder...

I will guarantee that from his perspective, you are lovebusting him. If you were to actually pay attention to the all of the posters on this thread, you would find that you have a lot to learn about caring for your husband instead of engaging in power struggles with him and behaving in a disrespectful way. If your husband moved away in the way that you did, would you see him as a victim? You might see it as a form of abandonment - a selfish act under a "work related" guise. You are Not feeble minded. You are worn out from spinning your marital wheels and you are a very determined lady. Now use that determination to change how you interact with your husband. I suggest a Real Plan A and then a Real Plan B like others have heretofore suggested.

Please re-read your whole thread.

Have you sold MB program (or a call to MBR) as a way that YOU can learn to be a better wife and HE will win? From His perspective it's a given that You would want to win.

Dr. Harley often expains that he teaches couples the same negotiation skills that successful professionals use. Have you sold it as a way to improve your marital AND business success?

Yes, from his perspective, no matter what I do, I am lovebusting him all the time, even though he is the one who decides everything, and controls everything, including what I helped the business earned.

Whenever he made mistakes, when things went wrong, he would heap them all on me, gaslighting and blaming me.

What I have experienced is abuse, and I have reached breaking point.

I wish I have left much earlier.

I am crazy to allow this to go on. Why should I stay in an abusive relationship?

Tbh, if he were a philanderer with many mistresses, but respects me and treats me fairly, and I can find my own space in the marriage, making decisions that affect our lives, or children's lives, I can even live with no sex at all and a husband with mistresses.

This marriage is so horrible, I would rather have that than this marriage, because his philandering won't drive me to suicidal thoghts, but the daily humiliation, the gaslighting, the blaming, the total control, the betrayal, mental and verbal abuse will.

You keep giving examples of adultery that do not exist in your marriage.
please stop doing that.

G2M,

You have to be planful.
It is obvious that you are depressed, but you should be in plan B if it is unbearable. Your husband may or may not have a personality disorder, but it does not work to tell people here on the forum what he is doing wrong. Instead you remove yourself and the children from the situation if he is abusive.

Why don't you separate your business from his, if he is so bad at things and you are a good earner? You don't need alimony if you make enough and he has the children. But why leave the children?

Make a plan of escape if your husband does not cooperate in recovering.

My apologies if I am insensitive to those who suffered from WS, I am at times consumed by self pity for my own situation of the utter complete lack of love in my marriage, that I am even cynical enough to believe that fidelity love doesn't matter in a marriage.

In truth, I do want a husband's love, but I have conditioned and adapted myself to zero love in my marriage, so that I believe even security and normal interaction with ones spouse without love, intimacy and sex is better than loveless, sexless, zero communication and connection, all in one package.

I know it's hard to believe but I have come to accept that H is unable to love me, he stays with me, but he emotionally and physically abandons me, while asserting control over every aspect of our lives together.

He tries valiantly to demonstrate love at times, flowers on Mothers Day, a cake on my birthday, but these are empty gestures that do not make up for zero communication and intimacy for years and years. We never had a heart to heart talk, he is completely averse to any feelings, it's extremely painful and he hangs up on me or leaves the situation immediately.

In a way, I hate my marriage but I don't blame H, although I entangle and confuse the two frequently when I am caught up in the moments of distress as a result of H's words and actions.

I don't blame H for becoming and being what he is, and to his credit he has made improvements in terms of behaviour, nonetheless, I do wish to end the marriage and seek genuine love, and this is only possible with a man who is able to love.

The only love he has is for his kids, pets and accolades at work. I am too tired to get to the bottom of his inability to love me, he says it is all my fault that I am unlovable, so be it.

I came to MB a couple of years ago to try to save the marriage, hoping for the "lightbulb" moment so H can understand that a marriage must be built upon some basic foundations, eg POJA.

I am so drained in this marriage, I feel it is better for me to be by myself, accept H for what he is, heal from this trauma, get over the loss, try to stay cordial with H.

While life in another city with this stressful client and project is tough, I did find myself more relaxed and I enjoyed working with my team, despite the usual setbacks. I felt normal again, even though I miss my kids and miss the feeling of belonging to a family.

H will no doubt move on, secured in the fact that it was all my fault, that I am the monster, I destroyed his office, I am responsible for all the failures, etc., it's fine if it works for him to keep himself sane.

There's no point to even try to defend myself, I can only remove myself from the situation that makes me almost suicidal and I thank the thread and all the literature about marriage.

H is too big for me to handle, it could take years of therapy, and even then, it might or might not work.

I dont think you are thinking clearly.
Can you click the Marriage Coaching link on the website and schedule an appointment to speak with Steve Harley this week?