Because you are dealing with a first generation narcissist with excessive controlling behavior, which may be ingrained into his psyche as a result of the culture he grew up in, you may have a diffult time (more than the average person) in getting him to see come around to a "mutual" way of thinking.

In my experience with dating a first generation Italian/Croatian years ago, the control was so extensive it was emotionally abusive, from finances to day to day activities, appearance, etc.

He wanted to change and we tried a few things, but it was futile. At least you have the tools here to possibility help your situation. He may be restistant at first, but don't give up. He will come around!

It much easier to change a women's nature/perspective (one who imposed her control, wants to begin imposing control, or thought she had control through ulterior motives) than a man's perspective (one who had control based on years of familial and cultural values). Big difference here.

The onus is on the man to overcome these barriers in this situation. The wife's control is based on her desire to be in a happy, mutually satisfying relationship. The onus is on her as well, but not to the same extent.

"Onus" is the wrong word. Both have equal responsibility, it just may be more difficult for the man (from this perspective) to overcome the hurdles and achieve desired results.

Just be strategic, whatever you do, even if it takes you longer to get out, so you don't leave your children behind when you do, if getting out is your final choice.

As I am linking H to the MB general site, I am trying not to give too many details away for him to discover this thread, until he is agreeable to MB and POJA, and willing to come on board.

We live in a city where rent is US$2,800 (landlord raised it this Aug) for 650 sq ft, where our tiny 70s era apartment will cost nearly 1.5 million to buy. Mortgage is simply impossible, yet H is considering buying a 400 sq ft apartment here for $800,000.

This led to a serious fight! A tiny studio will never be enough for all 4 of us, and we would be going into a horrible debt that could enslave our children.

There was a period during the financial crisis when we had a window to buy a home here, but H refused and that window is gone now.

I don't know why he insists on living here because we work crazy hours, live frugally, but we can't accumulate any assets because of the CoL.

It's also horrible for me and leads to severe depression because I suspect I have agoraphobia and I feel anxious around huge crowds. I stay at home all the time.

I'm not averse to cities, I used to live in Boston and I loved it there.

I will be leaving my children behind because I have spent every cent I earned working in H's office on rent, bills, food, family expenses, etc. I had to dip into my savings (saved before marriage and invested with modest returns) on many occasions.

When I leave, I will be without income and will be living on my savings. I understand that I can see an attorney, but I don't think H has assets either. He spent all our profits on unproductive and loss-incurring pursuits. We will just lose whatever little we have on attorney's fees.

See, to H, he will still inherit a little from his parents as he is an only child.

He has no worries at all about our future.

I am kept in the dark about everything, so I don't really know how much he will inherit one day. The homes of his parents in Germany look very, very humble.

My father has passed away and I won't receive anymore from my own family than what I have been given.

I hesitate to work at other firms because they won't pay me that much - profits all go to the partners. The only way to earn a healthy income is to have your own firm and manage the costs. However, start-up costs are very high, computers, CAD software, office rent, staff salary, etc., and as the stakes are high, Clients are wary about hiring a new firm.

The abortive work, unnecessary competitions, scams, investment into untrustworthy partners all drained our profits.

Yet H will never admit to any of it. To him, they were not mistakes, there were good reasons, it's all par for the course "in running a business", etc.

I am in despair because I don't see how H can make a living for us in future if he is in denial?

Business fail, ours might. I can see it coming, and helpless to do anything about it.

This is exactly what I fear at the back of my mind. While you're encouraging and optimistic that he'll come around, I am truly unsure.

I know he is trying to improve, but his default mode is this psyche that you describe.

My own experience is that while both sexes can be controlling, I have come across more controlling men than women. With a few exceptions, my female friends are mostly more measured, and flexible in their approach.

To diminish friction between couples, we really should seek those whose VALs and personality match ours in order that the POJA will be easier to implement for both.

There must be someone out there happy with all of H's decisions, monetary losses, love for this city, etc.

I made my bed, I understand, I agreed to marry H. I really didn't know that marriage is not an equal contract.

Controlling men need spouses who are willing (by nature) to go along with their decisions and choices.

I am flexible enough to give in for most of the decisions that do not have a huge impact on our lives, but not for the fundamentals, security of our future, income, roof over our head, etc.

That is the whole problem, and I understand why divorces are prevalent.

I am running out of time to establish a career on my own and secure a life/future for our kids. This is why I need to make a crucial decision at this juncture.

I won't be staying with anyone I know in the new city, though I have a distant relative there. I am subletting for summer. I am also considering a sojourn with another relative who is doing nature tours in a more rural area, simply helping out and paying for room and board.

These are temporary measures and won't solve my long-term problems, I know.

You don't seem to be thinking straight.

Who cares about the business; who cares about your financial future if you don't have your children.

Don't leave your children. Don't leave them at the mercy of an abusive father. This will be the bitterest regret of your life if you do this.

You will damage them immeasurably if you leave them.

Who cares if the profits go to partners of other firms, if you make what you need to stay with your children.

Gave2Much, don't give away more...your children. They need you.

What is it about the new life in another city that tantalizes you more than raising and protecting your children?

I am sure this is not the case, but I just have to ask -> is there another specific man you think you would like to be with more than your husband?

The kids don't need a financial future; they can make their own. They NEED their mom.

This is a terrible idea.

The description of your husband sounds extremely controlling towards you, but you state that he dotes on the children.

It doesn't seem like the Father has given any indication of abandoning tte children, while this Mother speaks multiple paragraphs about finances, turmoil, living conditions, inlaws, subletting an apartment, etc., but only dropped in a sentence about the children.

If they are to be raised by only one parent due to her seeming new path for life, wouldn't the kids be better off with the one parent not considering abandoning them?

This sounds similar to Eat, Pray, Love.

LTL

How would living in poverty help the kids?
Is this man a child abuser? I haven't read anything in this thread indicating that.

This poster should focus on selling MB to her husband.
If he is unwilling to agree to following the POJA in their marriage, she should start planning for separation in 2-3 weeks. She should consult an attorney prior to separation.

This poster never said that her husband has been professionally diagnosed with this disorder.
Most marriages that don't follow the POJA would probably describe the spouse as selfish or use medical terms like narcissist and find examples to justify their diagnosis.
But Dr. Harley does not entertain these scenerios in His Needs Her Needs. He focusing on having spouses focus on meeting emotional needs and avoiding love busters.

Fighting is a love buster.
That is a habit you will need to stop if you want to persuade him to meet your emotional needs

Jedi: "How would living in poverty help the kids?
Is this man a child abuser? I haven't read anything in this thread indicating that."

She said her H puts her down to the kids telling them she is crazy and needs to take a pill. She also said her H and his parents both have anger management issues towards the kids and described a very ugly incident.

If her H would blatantly disparage her to the children and cannot control his anger, then I am reading between the lines that he may not be the best parental option.

My concern is also that if he is already poisoning them against her, when she is gone it will occur without her being there to counteract it and the kids will believe his manipulative poison.

Also she mentioned all the vindictive and dishonest ways her H said he would destroy her if she left; I do not imagine...given that he is already disparaging her to them...that he will omit the kids from his tactics.

I know someone who's H purposefully and vengefully turned the kids against her to destroy her. Many years later she is still wrongly, and bitterly sadly, estranged from her children.

My husband loves the kids, he lets them make all the decisions to the point that they told me in secret that I should tell them what I want and they will persuade their father to come round to my way of thinking. They're his flesh and blood, he treats them as he will treat himself. All the fees of the projects go to him. He also earns a good income from a secondary job that doesn't require a huge temporal commitment, so yes, he is in a better position financially to support and raise the children. While I paid for rent, food, bills, etc., he paid for the nanny.

Our income proportion/ratio is 1:10.

Our expenditure ratio 100% (of my income): ?%

My husband receives 10 times what I receive, he claims he spent it all. I believe him, as I have witnessed the waste.

When I leave, our income ratio will be 0:11.

Which parent is in a better position to raise the children and provide for them?

I don't want to talk about it, it wounds me badly to leave the kids.

Sunnytimes, you are right in that H and his family have a vindictive side.

I believ, though, that Truth will out.

He told me how his mom would plot for the break-up of his grandfather and a lady friend his grandfather fell in love with.:(

I had been the punching bag for his mom on a few occasions. Once, when H's best friend was running 30 min late, she stomped off; H told me I had to stay to wait for H's friend, while H and the kids ran after H's mom. While I dined with H's friend, a sweet, lovely lady, H's mom said so many disparaging things about me to H and the kids that my little daughter couldn't take it anymore and had a row with her. According to my daughter, H and my son were too frightened to say anything in my defence. Grandmother told her she would never receive a birthday present from her again.

Subsequently, she made up with my daughter.

I have countless such anecdotes about H's family, I understand why we should live away from them, unfortunately. I would prefer to live in a different city in Germany, but we have no plausible excuse.

I am not afraid about the kids turning against me. They love both of us dearly and deeply. They are aware of what has been happening.

They love both of us differently. Dad is like a friend to them, while I firmly and lovingly draw boundaries which they understand and respect. Eg., H buys them expensive ice-cream, cakes, candy, whatever they ask from him, while I explain to them the value of nutrition and load them with vegetables, good protein and fruits.

It pains me that I have to scour the aisles for discounted vegetables while the ice-cream treats amount to a day's grocery budget for me.

I'm leaving the Titanic because I just can't get through to the Captain, and when I have built a life-raft, I will come for the children.

If the Titanic doesn't sink, and if I don't sink, then they will have two loving homes that welcome them, one day, I hope.

I have to do it soon, as time is running out for me.

I know it's a Pandora's box when I described my husband as a "Narcissist" and "Freeloader".

What I mean is that his behavior, attitude and beliefs seem to dovetail with the signs of NPD and MB's definition of "Freeloader", eg. he didn't care about my feelings, facts and history changing to fit his idea of what happened, he needs to be have his own way, needs constant affirmation, lacks empathy, few friends, perceives neutral comments as personal attacks and goes ballistic to protect himself, etc.

As therapy is insanely expensive, $160-$200 an hour, I had to do my own research because I really don't understand H and I want to help find a way to save our family, if not our marriage, if possible.

This search led me to this site.

I gave an example, I said "Client mentioned he wanted "B", not "A"..." and he went "B***h x 3!" and "Are you suggesting that I will fail?!"

He gets abusive when he feels an attack on himself, even though it was never meant as an attack.

Beyond what I know of him, is there another person deep down? I really don't know.

His parents retained their unpleasant personality into their old age.

While they can accurately judge others at times (eg. H described the plot to break up his grandfather's romance as something scary his mom did), they do not seem to reflect on their own words and deed, to initiate introspection.

I have no interest in distorting the facts on here, what would I get out of it on an anonymous site?

Lying yields no tangible benefits to me. However, I am at my wits' end, as I lack resources, I want to save my sanity and my kids, and H too, if there's a different person underneath. I value advice, experience, insight, and hope to educate myself and see my own shortcomings as well.

I admit for several months I let go and was abusive to him back which I now deeply regret. It was cathartic for me but hurt our family, hurt H, hurt the kids. Two wrongs do not make right.

While fighting is a LoveBuster, getting me and my kids into severe debt ($800,000) at the height of a property bubble against our will is not only a Love Buster, it is a crime.


By giving me nothing, he ensures that I will accept my marital fate. Is this done with awareness, is this thoughtlessness, I don't know.

My ex husband is every bit as controlling as yours. He would have screaming toddler tantrums when he did not get his way over the tiniest thing (still does according to my son). When I discovered MB, I realised that, for the first time I had the tools to make it possible for me to have a real (in MB terms) marriage with him. To go back to the time when we were deeply in love and he trusted me and listened to what I had to say.

What you have to do is see his behavior as a coping mechanism. It is immature and childish because he has never learned adult behavior. But he can learn. He desperately needs you and would love to have a real marriage with you. He may not be able to make the changes but what have you got to lose by trying the MB approach?

My marriage broke down because of adultery not because of the controlling behavior although I totally know how miserable that is. He has made chronically bad financial decisions since I left him and is miserable. During the 30 years we were married he was able to be successful and desperately wanted to stay married.

The divorce took six years (New York courts) as he fought it every inch in the courts and would have lasted another three years if he had not made a strategic error which allowed me to get a judgement of divorce. Unfortunately to get this I had to give up all the marital assets. This is the kind of thing you are facing too. Fortunately my youngest was 18 otherwise there would have been a nuclear war custody fight. He even tried to fight over the dog (which he was not even interested in).

I am encouraging you to try to work on your marriage because I don't think divorce is going to be a good solution.

Thank you living_well, for sharing your story.

Would you have stayed in the marriage if adultery didn't happen?

Did you always love your husband or did you stay because of your sense of duty to the marriage and family?

Did your husband succeed in adhering to POJA?

It seems your husband has poor judgment skills, he took decisions that hurt you, himself and your family.

This is what concerns me about my husband too, he made many poor judgment calls, I am constantly worried about more losses that are hidden from me.

I know I can't ask him about them, if any.


If H can stick to MB, I will be glad to work on the marriage with him. My own gut instincts told me he won't change, he will grow old like his parents.

Waiting is a risk, I can't live in this city much longer, need to build a career, earn an income, buy my own home for myself and the kids.

I can't count on H.

I am at a crossroad again, very much similar to the decision to marry 13 years ago, and worried about making the wrong choice.