First, a nice Love Bank deposit from H, he gave me an iPhone 6. I didn't actually want this new iPhone because I am happy with my iPhone 4, and didn't want a new iPhone, but I am happy that he tried to place a Love Deposit and I thanked him for it.

Unfortunately, our marriage has not been as you described. One of the "bad parts" that came with H, and with this marriage is that H will not accept any challenge or disagreement with his opinions, views or decisions. Any disagreement leads to huge fights.

This is why we don't talk any more. He doesn't want to talk at all if the talk is not affirming in some ways. Any other way but his way of thinking and deciding would be "negativity" to him.

He tells me all the time that my "negativity" (i.e. my inability to agree with and affirm him) is the problem.

If, as in your scenario, I were to say "I have a problem", it would immediately trigger something in H that makes him want to shut it down. He just doesn't want to listen to "my problem". This is why it ends in rows, even over small matters.

He can't deal with any feelings I might have which are not happy ones. If I have a problem I have to find my own solutions, and these solutions must not require any huge "sacrifices" (ie. him acting in a way that is not according to his views and wishes) from him.

The POJA is in fact asking H to change in a very fundamental and profound way, changing his pattern of dealing with me.

It requires him to talk to and negotiate with me.

As I have mentioned, we are estranged because unless the talk is trivial, eg how much of the deep ocean has been explored by mankind, what sort of ingredients will make a particular dish taste better, or agreeable, there is no talk possible.

This is also why I bought the book "How to improve your marriage without talking about it".

H simply doesn't want to talk to me. I don't think it is because he is afraid of me as you suggest, he simply cannot bring himself to talk about anything other than relatively trivial or self-affirming opinions.

Perhaps he does have fears, but I can't get to the bottom of these fears, as we can't ever talk about such things.

He is not the first I have come across either. His parents are similar. Another acquaintance I have talked to about Fukushima and Chernobyl insisted that the radiation from these meltdowns are not worse than normal background radiation and that the journalists and scientists who opine differently don't know what they are talking about. He got really upset when I didn't agree with him there and then, and when I pointed out evidence of radiation sickness in those residents in the vicinity, etc. I could not even say "We have to agree to disagree." This person has no expertise in nuclear radiation either. I am open minded to come round to his way of thinking if he has new evidence to show that his opinions are correct, but he didn't. I just had to quickly drop the subject.

My friends advised me to try subterfuge, i.e. I have to pretend to agree with him all the time, and then subtly try to find ways to avoid the pitfalls that would come with his decisions. One suggested "womanly wiles".

I have not been successful because I am too straight for this, too uncomfortable with lying, deceit and pretending, even if it was for a greater good, for example, deflecting the risk to our finances. It's my INTP nature which I can't and don't want to change, because I don't like/am incapable of manipulation and lies, even if they are white lies.

It makes me feel horrible to lie or deceive, I just can't do it. This is why I try the 3rd way, to make the talk as neutral and objective as possible, so it is not about *my* way/feelings vs *his*, but lets look at the bigger picture sort of way. It is still unsuccessful.

H has rejected MB, and I can't even talk to him about it, I believe for the same reasons that has characterized our estranged marriage. His parents' behavior towards each other and their respective spouses also clued me in a little.

His father is a decent man but frighteningly authoritarian. H's stepmother is docile, cheerful and submissive on the surface and seems to tolerate his personality well, but she is extremely cunning and manipulative underneath. She gets her way in the end by ignoring the abuses and temper tantrums from him, and by secret and elaborate plotting to alienate her husband, H's father, from everyone around him, including H and his grandchildren whom he loves dearly. Without going into details, even a couple of weeks with them scare the daylights out of me.

H and I can't talk because even if we talk about POJA or MB, or even about our marriage, it's too stressful for H and he shuts off or finds excuses to exit the conversation.

In my life, I can talk only to friends, or online.

Frankly, I do need him to change, and the POJA looks to be requiring a change in interaction and attitude (i.e. change from a one-sided to a more equal, balanced decision process), to take my needs and feelings into consideration, including my expectations of what a marriage entails.

I am willing to give up the marriage because I can't live any longer like this. It has been a very lonely, loveless, one-sided marriage.

Deep inside, I am really not "ok" with H as he is, because I need a spouse who talks to me, who believes in an equal marriage.

H seems to replicate his parents' behavior, but I can't cope with this behavior and am unable to plan elaborate wiles to get my own way. I lack that kind of "flexibility" and "plasticity" of character.

It takes two to have a fight. First thing you need to do is promise yourself never to fight with him again, ever. If things start to escalate, you just leave the room until you have calmed down. No matter what. You bring up the subject again when both of you are calm and try again, rinse and repeat.

No men want to 'listen to your problem'. That is not how they are wired. They want to see action and results. That is why I suggested you start with something HE wants that is not a large and emotional issue such as the use of the car. When he sees the POJA being used by you to give him the results he wants, he will start to get interested.

You have to entice him into this. Yes, it will be hard because his childhood was full of inappropriate behavior by his same sex parent. Do not point that out because it is very disrespectful to suggest he cannot learn better coping mechanisms. Just start to do this, little baby steps.

Try it, because you have nothing to loose and keep planning and snooping too.

He pretty much does whatever he wants now, so I don't even know what else to give in ?

He just wants me to be happy as it is, i.e. except for trivial matters where I can make some decisions, eg. where to eat, what clothes to buy for the kids, he gets to make 100% decisions on major decisions in life, where to live, where to work, how to spend the big money.

In the first place, I am unhappy in this marriage because I have to always give in, and I am depressed with the way I am forced to live (eg. I have agoraphobia but I *have* to live in a big, crowded city, I need a bigger abode but I have to make do with a 650 sq ft apartment because rent is so expensive here and I don't receive more from him, I want my son to try an another education system but he doesn't and my son is failing,...and so on), with no choices, no say and no financial independence.

You don't 'give in'. Have you read anything that anyone posted to you? You find something HE wants and you negotiate that respectfully until you have a solution that works 100% for both of you. Make it something small. Don't start with major stuff. Keep that until until you both know what you are doing.

I'm betting that he will be in tears of happiness if you can do this.

Also, you will get a lot more support here if you change the subject line of your thread. Do you know how to do that? It is profoundly disrespectful and puts off posters from reading your postings. Try something like 'should I divorce?'. Even 'can I save my marriage?'

How would you know that I didn't try to negotiate respectfully for 13 years?

You seem to be blaming me for my husband's controlling behavior and making some assumptions here that simply aren't true.

My situation is akin to the 3rd and most common trait in this Letter #2 about the controlling H, except that my husband has not come to the conclusion that he needs to do anything about this unequal, dominant-subordinate marriage.

There is one more disturbing trait about our marriage in that the facts are always shifting according to H's wishes, so that he is always right, he can never be wrong, no matter what happened. I find it difficult to put up with history being revised, I am losing even the right to correct memory.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5043b_qa.html

After trying to talk to him about POJA, after trying Alpha Marriage courses, to no avail, I do feel that I should separate from/divorce my husband as he doesn't see negating my feelings is a problem. I have held back because I realize how damaging divorce is for all of us and for our kids, a lose-lose proposition.

I took it for as long as I could (13 years) but I can't take it anymore. I understand unless he himself come to realize the importance of a POJA, my marriage will stay the same for the next few years, and will likely end in divorce anyway, better sooner rather than later. I don't have many years left to rebuild a life that I would find fulfilling and enjoyable. I have a right to be happy too, yes, to cry tears of happiness.

The concept of the POJA isn't alien to him, whether he is convinced he should accept it is another matter.

Only he can decide if he should even try.

Thank you all for your replies. Actually just knowing that my feelings do matter, that I do have a right to be heard in a marriage, is itself an epiphany.

G2M, you are really burned out; we get that.

However, the bigger picture is how to keep your children. While you seek legal counsel and develop a strategy that will not entail fleeing the marriage AND the children (which you will quickly come to bitterly regret), you have nothing to lose to follow the baby steps these posters are advising:

a) Don't fight again. You.can.do.this. Many of us have been in terribly abusive situations and we were able to muster the wherewithal to do this. Regardless of what he does, don't allow it to escalate into a fight. Just leave the room if you need to, but control yourself and your mouth. Distance yourself from the emotions and focus on what the best next step is on your strategy to keep your children. You do not want to leave them behind, vulnerable and unprotected, against parenting similar to what your H experienced from his father.

b) Start getting him to cooperate on the little things with POJA. There have been many great tips here.

Make sure you are eating well and sleeping. Just rest the burden of the marriage for the time being while you put together a strategy to retain your children. You can be very strategic in your professional life; now you need to bring those skills to your personal life.

Would you be able to get a job doing designs at a different firm? It seems that would eliminate many of your most urgent day to day stressors.

This would also let him deal the the actual reality of his decisions without taking for granted that he can abuse someone else into making it work out.

If I understand your thread right, you are not in Germany but would like to be.

Does the country you are residing in give women equal rights? I'm just trying to understand the dynamics/consequences of a separation.

In the US, a spouse is entitled to joint access to the marital assets and business income so you wouldn't have to flee to another distant city. So, if you separated and thereby had to leave the business, your H would be obligated to provide you with funds, you would receive 50% of the business, and the expectation would be you need to be provided for sufficiently to remain local and receive 50% custody.

You could take your 50% (of both assets and client base) and grow your own individual firm, or there would be a buyout from the spouse who is keeping the business to the other.

Is that how the legal system in your country of residence works?

Hi Sunnytimes,

I understand this completely:

a) Don't fight again. You.can.do.this. Many of us have been in terribly abusive situations and we were able to muster the wherewithal to do this. Regardless of what he does, don't allow it to escalate into a fight. Just leave the room if you need to, but control yourself and your mouth. Distance yourself from the emotions and focus on what the best next step is on your strategy to keep your children. You do not want to leave them behind, vulnerable and unprotected, against parenting similar to what your H experienced from his father.


I am unsure if I should go to Germany, I need to understand if H feels afraid of his family, he confessed his mom was emotionally dependent on him and threatened suicide before, and he loves his parents, but I didn't like the family dynamics. H didn't seem happy there, though he wouldn't admit it.

If H is stressed out, I wouldn't ask to move to Germany, but we live in a very expensive city now, and too crowded for me, so I'm ok with any other option if not Germany.

Besides, even though I am terrified by them, I think H still needs to support his parents emotionally and find some reconciliation/closure, it will be a pity not to resolve familial issues as they are advanced in age. Can't be escapist about family, I think.

If we manage our finances right, I don't mind remaining where we are, but the reverse is true, we earn just to hand it all over to the landlords here. Mortgage is impossible as we will go into serious debt just to afford a tiny apt.

However, the kids need a good, inexpensive public school system, college and healthcare, all free for them in Germany, that is my line of thinking...

I don't want to go after him in any way, ideally, I hope that we can amicably part in a win-win situation if not MB.

Unfortunately, our profession is saturated with unemployed architects now, what with the global recession. My pay would be low even if I have work at another firm, and I don't have the flexibility of time for my kids.

I try to stay away, but I am worried that abortive work happens again...my radar is sharper at the beginning of the project.

He has gifted an iPhone 6 to me, it's his way of demonstrating care, and I am thinking that my seriousness in booking a ticket and accommodation to leave is having an effect.

I am sending him more MB materials, he sort of just emailed a neutral response to some of them, maybe he will come round to MB approach?

I wonder why many husbands feel they need to retain full control over decision-making in a marriage?

Is it habit, a deeper need, or the nature of a testosterone-fueled drive?

I also need to understand the mental filter that translates "I know you feel "A" is important, but the Client has mentioned he really wanted "B" to take precedence" to "You are suggesting that I will fail?!"

I don't know how to get H to understand that I only meant exactly what my words meant?

I don't know why I sounded disrespectful in the former statement? Is it hurtful? This just happened today.


I also want to say this Forum is really superb, it provides a comforting, supportive and safe space for us troubled spouses and divorcees.

The same reason why many wives feel the same need.
We are all wired to try to get what we want at another person's expense. It is second nature for men AND women.

It could also be 6,000 years of habit.
I just listened to a sermon that the man is to be head of the household!

Women are just as disrespectful and demanding and controlling as men are, even in Christian homes that believe that men are head of the household.

Yea, a good picture of this is My Big Fat Greek Wedding.
The Greek father thinks he is in charge of everything, but his wife actually tells him what to do all the while making him think it was his original ideas!

I was one of those Christian women that believed husbands should be the head of the household and have the final say in everything. I believed in "biblical submission." My female friends that I surrounded myself with, also believed these things. And I can tell you, there wasn't a more disrespectful, judgmental, demanding group of women than us. Granted, we would sugarcoat our disrespect and demands, and call them different names, but they were still attempts at control.

That's been going on for thousands of years. Proverbs talks about the nagging, quarrelsome wife. Even they, in a male-dominated society, had trouble with lovebusting wives who tried to control.

Dr. Harley talks about how he has seen infants have angry outbursts. We all want what we want and when we want it -- empathy for another human being is something that is learned. That is what POJA really is -- forced empathy.

If you're not in full control over the decisions about your life, then you are out of control.

That wouldn't be pleasant for anybody, man or woman.

Marriage Builders prescribes a way that both husband and wife can be in joint control together.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to have control over your life. Everybody should have that. What's wrong is wanting to get your way at the expense of somebody else - to take away their control over their life so that you can get what you want. What you have to realize is that there are many options that you aren't seeing, that would be enjoyable for both husband and wife - pick one of those, and neither will feel out of control.

And why not - people naturally rebel against a situation where they are not in control of their life. They are supposed to have joint control - they are not supposed to have no control, so of course they don't like it.

Welcome to MB, Gave2Much.

Maybe I overlooked it but where do you currently live and how old are your children?

And Gave I don't think you answered my other questions, when you leave in a month, who will you be staying with, how will you support yourself, and how will you know your kids are okay?