To be fair to H, everyday affairs with him are fine, eg. cooking, cleaning, taking the kids out, though he must have the last word and instruction on how things should be done. He is a responsible man in many ways, sweet and charming when he made an effort, which is why I stayed.

However, where the big issues that adversely affect our lies are concerned, eg. marital rights, love, finances, work partnerships, life decisions such as where to live and buying a home, I am up against a brick wall and caved in to vicious fighting, and then when my predictions turned out right, I'm "rewarded" with a revision of history that completely contradicts the facts so that they were all my malicious intent, poor decisions and my fault.

Another important point is that I'm told over and over again that my views and his views are equally valid, but what if my views are based on what really happened, but his views are based on a fictitious account he made up to protect himself from admitting to any wrongdoing?

If I am upset because X happened, but he denied that X happened, but that the opposite, Y, happened, how do we even interact on an everyday basis?

To give an example out of the countless everyday events, I was against him renting an expensive office but he went ahead and incurred losses. He would then change the facts and insisted that it was me who wanted to rent an expensive office, so he did it because I was pushing for it. Tell me what should I do?

There is only one fact but in marriage two perspectives.

There were two perspectives about X, I was against it, H was for it.

This is where I agreed with everyone that there are two perspectives.

However, H then claimed that I was for X all along that's why he did X.

How is that "perspective"? That changed the fact, the truth, the reality, that "I was against X" to "I was for X" so H could escape any responsibility for his decision and place the blame on me when X brought about calamnity!

This is no longer about "differing perspectives", this is about honesty, truth and reality vs elaborate lies about what actually happened.

I objected to X, always objected to X, fought with H over X, and then when things went bad because of X, suddenly the facts changed and I was "for X" all along?


Frankly, this is what messes me up, what I would consider "gaslighting", a denial of my reality, and abusive as it torments the victim. I refuse to accept that I am the crazy one who keeps getting my reality wrong.

I have never had such "reality problems" with any family members, friends or ex-boyfriends, only H.

Imagine your spouse had an affair, you found out, you two fought about it, and then later your spouse claimed he or she never had an affair and you imagined it all, you're crazy claiming he or she had an affair.

I would rather leave such a person than to be tormented into thinking I am a crazy person.

I don't know how anyone sane can live with that.

I'm also very tired trying to explain what I am experiencing.

My ex spouses did have an affair and lied about it. I know how it feels to be lied to.
But you aren't dealing with an affair.
Your marriage could be saved if you were both willing to follow Dr. HARLEYS methods

I am impressed that you are willing to save your marriage with your WW.

As long as there's a way to reconcile and change to follow the rules of MB, I think it might work.

It is hard for anyone who hasn't dealt with someone like H to understand my dilemma.

Imagine your wife and you fought over OM, she not only did not apologize, she turned it round and blamed you for your neglect leading to her affair, and then a few weeks later she said she never had an affair, it was your own paranoia, over active imagination, and perhaps *you* had an affair and tried to turn the tables on her, etc.

Is she "lying"? But it's her version of events versus yours, and yours is just "another perspective", she is entitled to hers.

Your first reaction would be disbelief, and likely asked, "What??? We even fought over your cheating after I found the evidence and you're now denying any of that happened? And you're saying I was paranoid for suspecting you?!"

You now find yourself the party who was wrong and on the defensive.

It doesn't matter if you started frantically piecing together "evidence", she had ways of explaining them away and she tells everyone you're crazy and paranoid.

Unless WW admitted to the affair, accepted that she was wrong, apologized and agreed to work on marriage, how can you move forward with MB?

My husband and I fought over other important issues, but the results were as I described. I have grown to truly loathe him for doing this "gaslighting" to me all the time to avoid giving me acknowledgment for my giving and sacrifices, to escape responsibility for any mistakes he might have committed.

This is why I'm desperately trying to understand what this is, and I wonder if MB can even work with my situation.

I feel much better on my own and not arguing with someone about what truly happened all the time. I also find it easier to deal with logical people, whether or not you agree with each other, as there is at the minimum a "framework" upon which to base the discourse.

You seem to want to ignore what should be your own lightbulb moment and truths.


Well I'm calling bull on this...you are not puzzled or trying to understand what you are dealing with. You know yet don't want to make a decisive decision so instead you remain in Limbo Hell.


See...you are not puzzled or don't understand what you are dealing with.

black_raven, you're right and I'm in Limbo Hell.

If H is unable to have an honest conversation, and if he will always insist it's my problem, I don't know what to do except to separate for now.

I am also fearful that H is too rooted in what he is to be able to change to someone I can partner with for the next decades together.

Our past interaction would be horrible crazy fighting, and then a period of charming and winning me back and then it all started again.

I feel this is too big for me to handle, especially when H refuses to even admit to this pattern of behavior, I can't even begin.

Hi Gave-

Of course it is your decision to decide how to move forward with your life.

I want you to know that you are not alone. I experienced this very thing for many years. It did nearly drive me crazy and I became a very angry insane person.

So, I will give you my perspective, as one who lived with these types of interactions for over 20 years, and from my perspective after being in the MB online program and wasting time making mistakes in how I dealt with this problem.

1. Any conflict should immediately go into a "do nothing" stance and be discussed and agreed to IN WRITING. Avoid the temptation to work it out verbally. You have been there, done that. You CAN'T deal with him the same as others without that problem. Email is a good option. You can do this presently in the marriage. Isn't that what the courts do? Start now. Any communications/agreements about finances, kids, or business should be IN WRITING!! This is not to be unreasonable, but more because written communication is a better format to show when there are differences in understanding. It is the first step to breaking his habit of a "difference of recollection of the past". This method bypasses all of that.

2. When he disagrees about the past record of events, just say "I don't accept that." and walk away. DON'T ARGUE! Don't get upset, and don't move forward. Tell him to write you about it if he would like to communicate further. (I know, this is VERY difficult to do.)

3. Try to remember that even though writing things out takes way more time, in the long run you will save time. No more circular conversations. No more repeats. He may still forget, rewrite history or gaslight, but you can point him to the email record at that point.

4. Try not to judge Why he has this problem. It IS a problem. Whether it is a mood disorder, personality disorder, lack of proper childhood training, mind blindness, forgetfulness or just plain meanness, doesn't really matter. If you are both forced to solve the problem differently, you can learn a different way of approaching it.

5. (Brace Yourself) Part of the problem is that you have allowed yourself to continue dealing with him in the same way over and over instead of finding some other way that works. I understand that he doesn't deal with conflict in a productive way, but You are not dealing with Him in a productive way. It is not fair, maybe, but you can't keep doing the same thing and get different results. It would be nice if he could see his role in the problem, but he can't. The first step, is to back away from unproductive conversations and to ask him to take it to email format where you emotions are less likely to impact the outcome and where you can both get more clarity of perspective.

5. When the circular language starts, let him know KINDLY with a SMILE that the conversation is becoming unproductive and unpleasant for you. That you would like to go to email format or revisit sometime when the tone changes. And WALK AWAY!!!!! Remember that arguing over the past, is UNPRODUCTIVE and what REALLY matters is the Present and Future. Try to move the conversation to "So MOVING FORWARD...how can we solve this problem together in a way that is MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL?"

Whether you decide to divorce or to give your marriage a chance, you can put these ideas into practice.

Your husband has no skills for conflict resolution, and resorting to his style won't ever work. I'm not saying that you are, but even meeting him halfway on the arguing table is still joining in the argument. So YOU need to do it differently since he doesn't see his own problem. It may not be fair, but it is the reality that I know you face.

If you decide that you don't want to divorce, I would follow the suggestion someone gave long ago, and write him a letter explaining your problems in the marriage. You will need a MB coach like me and my husband did. Ideally, a wife should be able to tell each other where there's a problem, and get action. You might try emailing the radio show and seeing if you could get your husband on with Dr. Harley and Joyce.

To answer your question about whether MB can work in your situation...

YES. It is the ONLY thing that I know of that can work. But it will take time, and he has to at least be willing. Many posters here have given you suggestions about how you could help him get motivated. But what you are doing right now with the way you separated won't help with that. I understand the whole "being undermined" at work thing. I understand that you needed a break. I get it. But as you can see, as long as you are bound together by marriage, children and business, your dysfunctional dealings with him will still make you miserable and affect your health. Staying married with no change, in my opinion, is not a good option. Get help, or get a divorce.

I know that I have repeated myself lots of times and could have edited, but no time. I hope this helps. You are not alone.

I should have worded this "my perspective after wasting time making mistakes and then being in the MB online program". Just to clarify, the MB online program has not been a waste of time.

Hi Didn'tQuit,

It helps tremendously.

I'm studying the methods you described and I'm going to try to put them into practice.

I still have to deal with H, whether or not I want to remain married to him, and he is the father of my children.

I am still leaning on the divorce side of things, I really cannot take him anymore.

He considers me working on the current project and the future fees I will receive from this Client "alimony"! I won't get a cent more!

I do recognize he is likely a victim of his own past, but I will leave that to the professionals though I hope he will seek help for our sake.

I feel better without him, of course I do miss the better side of him, but I'm getting stressed and my health could be hitting a crisis soon. I don't feel I can waste any more years of my life.

I feel I am sick psychologically to have put up and fought over so many futile useless battles and subjecting, me, my children, even H to the struggles.

There have never been any point to any of those.

Thank you for the clear and firm steps.

I have always been tempted by the idea of my husband "healing", but it remains a fantasy of mine. I'm trying not to be too bitter about these futile attempts in the past, can't bring back time.

But I have lost all stamina or interest in the salvation of this marriage, the thread does help me to clear my mind and let go of my fantasies of the light bulb moment in H, etc.

As the famous President said, "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...ops!"

I'm responsible in many ways for my own current state because of my own feeble mindedness.

Gave-
I think you need to reread your entire thread before making decisions.

Just like you I had been worked over and pushed to a breaking point where I resorted to unreasonable methods of interaction with my spouse when problems arose. I must tell you that without the proper rules, all marriages reach that place, one way or another.

Your working under the conditions which your husband considers alimony is sending him the green light toward his alimony plan. Your actions are showing agreement. Don't let your good will show up in a place that does more harm than good. Trying to keep the business issues from backfiring is a form of control and it keeps him from seeing them. By moving forward, you are part of the problem. Don't be so quick to help him solve problems. You are confusing things and even though you think that you are being helpful, in a way, you might be communicating the DJ that he can't take care of business.

And...
Just a reminder...

I will guarantee that from his perspective, you are lovebusting him. If you were to actually pay attention to the all of the posters on this thread, you would find that you have a lot to learn about caring for your husband instead of engaging in power struggles with him and behaving in a disrespectful way. If your husband moved away in the way that you did, would you see him as a victim? You might see it as a form of abandonment - a selfish act under a "work related" guise. You are Not feeble minded. You are worn out from spinning your marital wheels and you are a very determined lady. Now use that determination to change how you interact with your husband. I suggest a Real Plan A and then a Real Plan B like others have heretofore suggested.

Please re-read your whole thread.

Have you sold MB program (or a call to MBR) as a way that YOU can learn to be a better wife and HE will win? From His perspective it's a given that You would want to win.

Dr. Harley often expains that he teaches couples the same negotiation skills that successful professionals use. Have you sold it as a way to improve your marital AND business success?

Yes, from his perspective, no matter what I do, I am lovebusting him all the time, even though he is the one who decides everything, and controls everything, including what I helped the business earned.

Whenever he made mistakes, when things went wrong, he would heap them all on me, gaslighting and blaming me.

What I have experienced is abuse, and I have reached breaking point.

I wish I have left much earlier.

I am crazy to allow this to go on. Why should I stay in an abusive relationship?

Tbh, if he were a philanderer with many mistresses, but respects me and treats me fairly, and I can find my own space in the marriage, making decisions that affect our lives, or children's lives, I can even live with no sex at all and a husband with mistresses.

This marriage is so horrible, I would rather have that than this marriage, because his philandering won't drive me to suicidal thoghts, but the daily humiliation, the gaslighting, the blaming, the total control, the betrayal, mental and verbal abuse will.

You keep giving examples of adultery that do not exist in your marriage.
please stop doing that.

G2M,

You have to be planful.
It is obvious that you are depressed, but you should be in plan B if it is unbearable. Your husband may or may not have a personality disorder, but it does not work to tell people here on the forum what he is doing wrong. Instead you remove yourself and the children from the situation if he is abusive.

Why don't you separate your business from his, if he is so bad at things and you are a good earner? You don't need alimony if you make enough and he has the children. But why leave the children?

Make a plan of escape if your husband does not cooperate in recovering.

My apologies if I am insensitive to those who suffered from WS, I am at times consumed by self pity for my own situation of the utter complete lack of love in my marriage, that I am even cynical enough to believe that fidelity love doesn't matter in a marriage.

In truth, I do want a husband's love, but I have conditioned and adapted myself to zero love in my marriage, so that I believe even security and normal interaction with ones spouse without love, intimacy and sex is better than loveless, sexless, zero communication and connection, all in one package.

I know it's hard to believe but I have come to accept that H is unable to love me, he stays with me, but he emotionally and physically abandons me, while asserting control over every aspect of our lives together.

He tries valiantly to demonstrate love at times, flowers on Mothers Day, a cake on my birthday, but these are empty gestures that do not make up for zero communication and intimacy for years and years. We never had a heart to heart talk, he is completely averse to any feelings, it's extremely painful and he hangs up on me or leaves the situation immediately.

In a way, I hate my marriage but I don't blame H, although I entangle and confuse the two frequently when I am caught up in the moments of distress as a result of H's words and actions.

I don't blame H for becoming and being what he is, and to his credit he has made improvements in terms of behaviour, nonetheless, I do wish to end the marriage and seek genuine love, and this is only possible with a man who is able to love.

The only love he has is for his kids, pets and accolades at work. I am too tired to get to the bottom of his inability to love me, he says it is all my fault that I am unlovable, so be it.

I came to MB a couple of years ago to try to save the marriage, hoping for the "lightbulb" moment so H can understand that a marriage must be built upon some basic foundations, eg POJA.

I am so drained in this marriage, I feel it is better for me to be by myself, accept H for what he is, heal from this trauma, get over the loss, try to stay cordial with H.

While life in another city with this stressful client and project is tough, I did find myself more relaxed and I enjoyed working with my team, despite the usual setbacks. I felt normal again, even though I miss my kids and miss the feeling of belonging to a family.

H will no doubt move on, secured in the fact that it was all my fault, that I am the monster, I destroyed his office, I am responsible for all the failures, etc., it's fine if it works for him to keep himself sane.

There's no point to even try to defend myself, I can only remove myself from the situation that makes me almost suicidal and I thank the thread and all the literature about marriage.

H is too big for me to handle, it could take years of therapy, and even then, it might or might not work.

I dont think you are thinking clearly.
Can you click the Marriage Coaching link on the website and schedule an appointment to speak with Steve Harley this week?