You are absolutely right, that fighting with H didn't achieve any results, so I just stopped, but it torments me to see hard-earned money thrown away at unfruitful endeavors, when we need the money badly.

As H controls ALL decisions, holds all the money, I have to make do with what is given to me, so although I work, I have little financial independence and every cent I earn goes to support the family, frugally, for years.

I can't support the kids now, because even the new huge sum of money/fees coming in goes to H.

My savings will rapidly be depleted in the new city too, if I can't work and have to look after the kids. I am moving because the city we're in is staggeringly expensive. I just can't live my current life anymore, and I don't see any other options out there.

H claims he is negative too, and I have no idea how these millions in fees are all spent.

See, H really thinks because I am unhappy, therefore it's my problem, I should solve it by becoming happy. This is his Logic, and I can't argue with that.

I see the window and I don't jump because I keep focusing on my kids.

But I am trapped.

Sorry, all the "DOJAs" in my post should be "POJAs", I mistyped!

You are not trapped, you feel trapped. Quite different thing and you are obviously a highly competent professional who is perfectly capable of getting a great job elsewhere.

Is it possible that your husband has an addiction? His behaviour would indicate a secret second life. If you think strategically, you should be able to find out. Don't ask him of course, don't even alert him but MB has some fantastic tracking and snooping tools that you can use. Also sometimes searching the sock drawer will do it.

If you find anything, come back here for the next steps. You cannot work on a marriage if there is competition from an addiction.

Hi living_well, I don't think he has an addiction, but can you clarify what are the signs that led you to suspect addiction? He used to drink a lot, especially with guys like P, who haunted the hostess bars, but he has since completely quit. He used drugs in his younger party days, but not anymore that I can tell.

Thank you for complimenting, I will cautiously say that in the area of the profession where I excel, I am competent, but I am weak in many other areas. I have opened the door and will just try my best and do it The next 13, 20, years will be the same as the past 13 years, and I want no more of this. I am still worried about finding a job to support myself in a new city, but I will try my best to live a new life and hope to be able to keep in touch with the kids.

I told H about MarriageBuilders but he isn't interested because he keeps saying I am the one who's the problem, and I should change myself.

This is what I mean when I said I can't use Logic at all, and I find that his need to be always right to the exclusion of all other possibilities makes it almost impossible to ever heal the marriage. Dr Harley said MB couldn't save some of these marriages, I reckon mine is a hard one to crack.

I might have had an epiphany if I had met his family earlier...my instinct would have been "Run!"

The red flags for me are the people he choses to hang out with and the secretiveness with money. Just keep investigating quietly.

In the meantime, follow the advice you are getting here. I am also extremely logical and if I can do it you can do it too. Make it safe for your husband to share his failings with you. That means absolutelly no disrespectful thoughts, let alone comments. He may be afraid of what you will say.

If you listen to the radio show you will hear Dr Harley and his wife treating each other with the greatest respect all the time even when they strongly disagree. That is what you need to aim for. It will not just benefit your marriage, it is essential for your children to see you like that with one another otherwise they will carry the bad behavior model into yet another generation. I found my children were 'acting out' with one another my worst behaviors with my XH.

The basic part of POJA is that you don't do anything you don't agree to, period. An acronym that helped me move from DJing my partner to getting back in touh with my Taker so i had a shot at recovering my marriage and my life was JADE - I don't have to Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain.


This kind of situation is exactly what POJA is for, each of you brings wisdom and foolishness, and when you change your behavior, stop caving into bullying, stop letting him keep you in the dark, aggressively get to the truth of your finances and all, as lw suggested, then your wisdom will start benefitting the marriage again.

I'm getting good advice here, I will keep an eye out for the signs. I would be surprised because he is very sober these days.

I did some Math and I believe the biggest profit killer, along with recklessly trusting and investing in partners who are not trustworthy, are these competitions and proposals that went nowhere, but which took a lot of human and office resources to produce. I only worked on the paying and paid projects, and I guess he squandered the profits and other sources of income on these unpaid projects. He genuinely believes he is a genius and that he will be discovered if only someone would notice the brilliant projects he submitted for competitions.

However, good designs do not come from a hunger and need to "prove" oneself, to exhibit one's genius to the world, it comes from the opposite, from humility, from the desire to let the needs of the project and clients guide you to a place of light where creativity reveals itself.

I believe we lost the equivalent of half a million over such abortive attempts, our production and costs are expensive.

We constantly fought over the approach to business, so it's a double whammy, marriage plus workplace conflicts.


I have been foolish, I thought by supporting the family, saving and living frugally, I am supporting my husband's dream.

He never ever thanked me, in his twisted logic, he just told himself, told friends I am unhappy because I wanted more money, wanted a European house, etc., *because* I told him I felt that with our dire finances, Germany offers a much better safety net for our kids (German nationals), for healthcare, for our retirement, and excellent tertiary education is free there for our kids.

See, again, I am using Logic to consider our future and our kids' future, it goes through some mental filter and instead of accepting what I said exactly as I meant, he heard I wanted more money, an EU green card to take advantage of the EU system and a European house!!

Isn't this a DJ?

No matter how I explain what I think and feel, what I understand to be facts, his "filter" twisted them into something negative and grotesque about me and my intentions and he fought back hard.




NewEveryDay, I believe that in order for POJA to work, both parties need to share the same Logic/Discourse platform, so facts can be laid out, spelt out, and negotiations can then take place.

My problem is that H doesn't think in the same logical pattern (eg. lying= untrustworthy, substance-abuse business partners = high risk, if it sounds too good to be true = most likely internet scam (yeah, he almost fell for one of those variations of the Nigerian scam, but this one targeted architecture offices), etc.) and I'm at my wit's end how to deal with this difference.

If I can't use normal logic to negotiate a POJA, what can be used?

I have a month left before my flight/departure, perhaps I can mend some fences.

My problem is I don't want to, I actually felt relieved that I am finally leaving. I only look back because I left my beautiful children behind.

Under PoJA he would not be able to make that decision about the business partner because he does not have your enthusiastic agreement. Not because it is illogical but because it bothers you. You haven't agreed to it and so it is independent behaviour if he goes ahead and makes unilateral decisions.

If you don't like it - it doesn't happen. For whatever reason; logical or illogical because it is your life and marriage and finances too. Even if the business partner had nothing against him except you thought he looked shifty. That would be enough to cause unease and loss of love if your husband just big fat did it anyway.

PoJA is about showing care for your partner regardless of the logic. It sets a terrible precedent if each spouse has to present a logical justification for everything. What that basically means is that you don't care about each others feelings, you only care about logic.

Think about things that aren't logical. If your husband had a distaste for mushrooms you would not put him in a position where he had to either justify it logically or be force fed with them.

If he makes an independent decision you've not signed off on that is like force feeding you. He has stuffed something into your life you just don't want there.

One of the reasons I want you to stop DJing is I want you to be more confident about saying no. Just no. Just because you don't want it.

You should expect that to be taken seriously. Giving a speech as to why logically he should just says you don't expect to be considered.

Stop lecturing and just say you don't agree/don't want it and hope he will show consideration for your feelings. He needs to know you will leave any life he has created without your input; it's not the life you want. Where abuse is happening you need to say you won't stand for it; he either stops it or you will leave.

The DJing is pointless. He doesn't need to think exactly like you to listen to what you want from him so what is the point in diagnosing his thinking? It has just been a distraction from the nitty gritty of this situation; 'Treat me well or you will not keep me'.

That's a scary thing to say but you must.

Thank you. Yes, I do get it now.

This actually gives a lot of power to me, as I did not have the right to make or object to important decisions most of the time.

I am happy to accept this, I have been bending over backwards pleading and pleading...but a question for the sake of discussion.


If my objections aren't backed by good reasons, wouldn't that be..hmm..unreasonable of me to object?

Of course personal distaste is another matter, I can't ever eat lamb, can't drink at all, and it was never a problem in my life with others.

Anyway, the bad news is that H isn't interested in MB and he told me he would welcome the peace when I'm gone. He never cared about my feelings throughout the entire marriage, tears, sadness, depression, this premise of the POJA, not to do something if it were to make me unhappy, would certainly appall him.

It dawned on me that I cling to Logic because my feelings have always been negated by H. My feelings are disdainful to him, to him, my depression is my sickness, he is suffering from having a mentally sick wife, etc. so I tried using Logic to support my feeble position in the marriage.

It isn't that this won't wreck both of us, it would, kids would suffer severely, but will H "get" it? No, not from what I have seen of his inability to learn from other failures. He would just blame it all on me as he had and always done.

As someone who is personally part Vulcan (on my moms side), I wmpathize with your position.

I strongly feel (from a logical point) that you should consult an attorney prior to leaving your marital home though

If you do leave your marital home and children, may be considered abandonment (short of leaving for physical/mental abuse) and will not sit well for you in a divorce and custody settlement. I agree - consult with an attorney before you take such a serious step.

At the moment, we both agreed we need a break from each other. I agree it is good to see an attorney, or a marriage arbitrator.

I will be gathering my thoughts and preparing for Plan B.

We have not been talking to each other for a long long time.

He is unable to admit to any mistakes, all the losses he insists stem from circumstantial problems. He prefers to have absolute control, have 100% decision making power, and if he were to fail, the failures would be justified in some ways by him such that it would be some other factors beyond his control that led to the failures, including me. There have been so many instances of DJs from him, abusive language (called me "b***h" 3 x a few days ago because we disagreed over Client's wishes for new project...) against me, it is just hell for me in this marriage.

The worse is that the Taker in me has started to rear its ugly head and I have screamed back at him in abusive language as well, I don't want my own personality to change. And it's horrible if the kids start to feel that such behavior is right and acceptable in the family.

On the paid projects, he would sometimes lead the design in a direction that would be rejected by the clients and the abortive work would cost us dearly. Staff would get angry about the futile overtime, hard work and many of them resigned. If he were to open his mind, he would have found out the problems with his proposals, feasibility, costs, appropriateness, context, etc., but such points would be registered as personal judgment and criticism against him, he would make up justifications to explain them away so that he kept his own confidence in his brilliance and beliefs intact.

I have enabled him, doing my best to put out fires, cope with the stress of upset staff, etc., because of my belief that if he sinks, we all sink.

He needs to be this way, it is crucial for him to have full control and to always protect himself. I could see from his parents they both retain this same strong personality to their advanced age. After 13 years together, I can see a pattern of behavior and core beliefs that have changed little, even though there have been gradual improvements, eg. he stopped the drinking.


I realized I do not have the right personality and social skills to deal with his type. I am poor at Sensing-Feeling, as an INTP, I am polite, cautious, logical, but too "straight" (WYSIWYG) to know how to weave a cocoon around the contents of my views to gently envelop him to keep his pride intact instead of my straight talking. I am also not such a self-effacing person that I can accept being controlled, ordered around, belittled, judged and abused by him constantly for the rest of my life.

I am now able to ask myself, do I really *want* to share my life with this type? Although he has his charms, he is a wonderful, loving father, a good cook, he brings me flowers sometimes, I receive a cake on my birthday, I understand why I have stopped loving him, these traits do not create a Love Bank surplus when huge withdrawals are a constant in our marriage.

Our marriage has failed. I know that MB has helped many many couples, I wish it could help mine, but a fundamental requirement for this to work is an ability for introspection.

No, the fundamental requirement is that you understand MB and you do not, (yet). Please believe me when I say that MB is going to help you whether or not you save your marriage. It also will help your relationships with others, especially your children.

As you work through the MB material, you will understand that it is profoundly disrespectful to try to change your spouse. Throughout your postings it is blindly obvious that this is the logical error you are making. You chose a husband who would complement you, his strengths are your weaknesses and his weaknesses are your strengths. Once you are back in love, you will be able to accept who he is and get joy from that.

See a lawyer about your financial entitlements and keep the kids that way.

Once you've had a chance to lick your wounds you are going to miss your kids and the only option will be to return to the abuse.

Don't take a 'break' do it right, sort it out long term.

Once you've gone you will probably lose entitlements unless you return to the abuse of the marriage.

See a lawyer.

100% agree with Indie. If you do decide to go into Plan B, under no circumstances should you leave your children with him even for a single day. It would allow him to control you for the rest of your life. The courts do not look favourably on women that leave their children and he will put the most negative spin that he can on your actions.

You do not have any evidence of wrongdoing on his part at this point so you would have no defence.

Gave2Much, I know all this stuff is exhausting, but what are you action steps you will take this weekend on the items the folks here are giving you to take

1) When you find yourself thinking about decisions your H has made, continue to bring them to your H respectfully. Your conversation where it escalated to name-calling make withdrawals, not deposits.
2) Start listening to the radio show to hear by example the respect we want you to internalize. You act like it's not okay for your H to think how he does, but it's not the thoughts that are dangerous, it is the actions, how he acts without regard to your input. You are getting a plan in place to address this.
3) Quietly get the information you need about your finances
4) Meet with an attorney to discuss implications of your next steps

When you married, you moved to your H's country, and though you don't think his family is good for them, you think their country gives them more opportunity, is that correct? Please correct me if I misunderstood.

Where are you flying to next month? Where will you stay, where will you work? How and when will you see your kids?

I called an attorney when my divorce was dragging on, I wanted to go stay with my bother across town because I couldn't stand to look at my then-H, I was so angry. I called an attorney friend and got good advice for my situation, I'm not mad at him, I was mad at myself for going along with it all, and that would have followed me to my brother's house. Just stay in the house a little longer while the paperwork went through and get my own ducks in a row. It was sound advice for me. Then when I was on my own with the kids I had gotten in the habit of making better choices and wasn't a sitting duck for the next guy.

Thank you, living_well,indiegirl,NewEveryDay for your advice.



indiegirl, I like your straight-talking and clarity. I think it is possible to amicably work out a long-term partnership such that H and I continue to both contribute to children's well-being, share custody and visiting rights.

I have more liquid savings than H atm, but he has more familial assets which he will inherit in Germany. He told me once that "fortunately" his family did not transfer any assets to him because I might take them, and he threatened to go for half of my savings a couple of times.

This is the uglier side of our marriage. On saner, calmer days, we talked about not going through what some of our divorced friends did, because we don't want the other to sink, love or no love, we are both parents of our kids.

This is why I am going to see if I can transfer a large portion of my savings to the new city, to set up, and to prepare for investment into a small business, etc.

Ideally, if both of us can work with mutual respect for each others' strength (he doesn't treat his staff like he treats me, but then his staff follow/execute every instruction given by him), avoid the unnecessary losses that have occurred, we can earn a healthy profit and prepare for our kids future.

It isn't impossible to do this, we both have complementary strengths, but it is his 100% control and refusal to consider my feelings and views that lead to a lot of problems in our lives.

However, today as we were having a conversation about making serious mistakes, he continued to insist that mistakes will *always* be made by people, and it's ok, what's important is to accept we all make mistakes and move forward.

In my mind, I was going, but those mistakes I pointed out to you to ask that you refrain from making them, they were not unforeseeable, but you ignored what I said and went ahead to commit them anyway because you insisted.

living_well, you mentioned that I should not try to change my spouse, but isn't asking him to respect my views in a PoJA changing my spouse because he never believe he should?

I don't love him after so many years of being negated in the marriage, but I am willing to be be a good friend and partner in raising our kids.

NewEveryDay, we are currently not in Germany, and have not been back except for short visits for 13 years now, and I am worried about the long-term prospects for the kids if they don't learn German, or grow up in the German system, which I feel provides greater security for our family. We might not be able to fit into German society at all if we delay our return.

Personally, I prefer *not* to be in Germany...probably because of my bad experiences staying with H's divorced parents.

You are right, I have not gone "Taker" on H again, we are interacting in a much more civil manner since making the decision for the coming break.

Deep inside me, I wonder if H is this way because of his upbringing? I can't begin to describe how terrifying his side of the family is for me. His parents are not bad people per se, but they are *very disturbing* to me in so many ways, but this probably merits an entire own thread!

H has improved in many ways, especially in his attitude towards the kids. He is much more conscious now about raising his voice all the time, though he still goes back to old habits on occasion.

He used to explode over every tiny incident at home or work, like his father. After witnessing his brutal smack down for forgetting to bring water, I felt great sympathy for him, I wondered to myself if he had been damaged by his childhood? This might explain his reluctance to move back to Germany, as he will be obliged to be with his parents again.

So you can't work out mutual respect within the marriage but you can in a divorce?

Well you'll be the first.

Yes.
Don't count on mutual respect.

Not only can we not change our spouses but it is profoundly disrespectful to try. Essential to see that people come as a package with our good parts and our bad parts interwoven. You can't take the parts you like (good father) and not the ones you don't like (irresponsible with money). What you can do is complement one another so that his strengths build your weaknesses and your strengths build his.

Asking him to respect your views is not trying to change him. When you respect his views, you are saying that he is ok as he is. When he respects your view he is doing the same thing. Can you see that this is the opposite of trying to change each other? If you want him to respect your views, start by respecting his.

My sense is that your husband is an avoider who has become afraid of you. Radical honesty and the POJA are going to be a massive game change for him, and for you too.

So how does the POJA work? One of you will bring a problem to the table. Start with small stuff until you get the hang of it. Perhaps you have conflicting plans for Saturday that mean you will both need the car. Then you discuss the issue back and forth coming up with one idea after another until you find a solution that you are both 100% happy with. At all times the discussion is pleasant and easy. Some of your (or his) ideas may be ridiculous but all ideas are offered safely meaning that there is never disrespect. If you do not find a solution, the answer is to do nothing so neither of you goes out on Saturday. You can revisit the issue at another time of course.

If I understand your issue, your problem is that you feel that your husband would not agree to POJA anything but the beauty is that he does not have to even know what it is. Let's try the above scenario again: one car and two projects on Saturday. Ask him if he can give you a good time to talk about a problem you have. When you are sitting comfortably, presenting it to him and inviting him to negotiate it with you. You don't say 'well my project is the family's shopping so that is not up for negotiation', you tell him that you would like it if there was a solution where he was happy with the outcome. Nobody is going to fail to take the bait. He will be thrilled that his feelings are being considered. Don't worry about the shopping, your husband's feelings are far more important.

After a few successful rounds of POJA where you have initiated, suggest he try it too. Do not be too ambitious, take this gently. Keep it safe.