I think I'll start at the low point.

My husband went on a business trip to California a few months ago. We had been away from each other a lot this past summer, I was recovering from pneumonia at the time and hosting two days worth of birthday parties at my house for a couple of family members. He despises his boss and she was putting a lot of pressure on him during the trip. We were both very stressed out and from pretty much the moment he landed in LA we were arguing. I got needy. He got angry. It was a mess.

The morning after, I called to apologize. He did as well. We spoke throughout the day and were on good terms. That night, the event he was attending hosted a cocktail party. He told me it went from 5 - 9 and he would call me when he got back to his hotel room. Once 10 pm (his time) rolled around and I still hadn't heard from him, I called. He answered, but our conversation was odd. It sounded to me like he was having a good time and wanted to keep talking to people. I said I was fine with that and asked how long it would be before he went upstairs. He had to be up very early so I knew it wouldn't be long. He said he wasn't sure, but he would call me back in 20 minutes and let me know what his plans were.

I didn't hear back from him until the next morning. Granted... He did call a few hours later, but I was asleep. I had texted and called him a few times, but no response to either.

He called the next morning, apologetic at first, but then very defensive and irritated when I told him I was hurt and confused. He eventually said he was talking business with a male colleague all night and got wrapped up in their conversation.

On the surface, I did accept this explanation. But it ate away at me and it ended up coming up in conversation quite a bit after that. Which made him angry and frustrated because he was telling the truth and felt like I didn't trust him or was trying to manipulate him.

A couple of weeks ago, it came up again. And this time, he told me that he had been lying to me about it the entire time. According to his new story, he was with a group of people, including some women. He had spent the evening flirting with one of them and didn't answer my calls simply because he didn't want to talk to me. A few hours in, he felt guilty and went back to his room to try and call me.

He went on to say that he felt emotionally disconnected from me and has been for some time. (News to me, by the way). He claimed he married me because I'm a good mother, nothing more (also news). We have nothing in common (this one is kind of true). Etc. Etc.

The conversation ended when he told me he wanted a divorce. I told him that I would not accept his rewritten version of our marriage, nor would I grant him a divorce immediately. But I would absolutely give him some space to be angry by himself. He followed me around the house as I packed up mine and my children's things and then we left.

I stayed the night and most of the next day with my parents. I planned to stay another night since I hadn't heard from him, but my baby hates sleeping anywhere but home and my toddler was crying for his dad, so I decided to go home.

I sent him a text to tell him my intentions and that he was welcome to be gone when I got there. However, I was going home to work on my marriage and I hoped he would be there to participate.

When I got home, he and his parents were here and very happy to see me. His mom and dad begged us to work things out and my husband was very receptive.

That night, I asked him point blank to make a firm, absolute recommitment to our marriage and he did. We spent the next week reading His Needs Her Needs together and doing the workbook. We talked a lot. We reconnected physically. We planned some things to do together. We're both trying incredibly hard with almost surprisingly good results. He seems more in love with me than he has been in a long time... And I feel exactly the same way.

However...

No matter how good it is, I cannot get rid of the elephant in the room with us. I don't think I believe that all he did was flirt with this other woman. I think he cheated physically with this person. And I think he's lying about it.

When I can put it away and not think about it, things are great. But then I start thinking about it... And just the not knowing... It's killing me.

Is it important that I know? Does it even matter? When does this feeling go away?? I don't want to hurt over it anymore. I just want to move forward. But if that's true, why am I still dwelling on it? I feel so confused.

Some general background: We've been married for five years. We were both married before and have children from those marriages. We have total legal custody of both his children and my child and we also have two children together (a total of five). We had a rocky beginning, mostly due to the stress of forming such a big family so quickly and financial issues... Both of which have pretty much ironed out. We struggle to communicate our feelings and we both feel like too much is expected of us. Neither of us is wrong there, I think. We're both spread incredibly thin. But we're both young and we enjoy having a bunch of kids, busy life, hectic schedule etc. We're trying to make more time for just he and I, but that can be really difficult.

I just want this nagging question in the back of my mind to either be answered or go away. I hope that makes sense.

You need to know the whole truth, absolutely, and your H should answer all questions you have with complete honesty. I would schedule a polygraph and have a list of questions you want answered before the polygraph. Many wayward spouses will spill out the truth before the polygraph.

You need to know all the conditions that led to the affair and who this woman was. Where did they meet?

You need to expose your H's affair to your family and friends and your clergy. He also should never travel again. You should spend every night together.

The book you need to read through together is Surviving an Affair. His Needs Her Needs are wonderful resources, but they are best for you AFTER SAA.

You'll get a lot of help if you click "notify" at the bottom right of the screen and ask that your thread be moved to Surviving an Affair. In the meantime, be sure and read through the sticky thread at the top of the SAA forum. Lots of invaluable information.

I don't know that I agree that a flirtation qualifies as an affair. There's a possibility that it was more than that, but I go back and forth about what I think the truth is. Polygraph tests aren't very accurate... And I don't want to bait or trick him into being honest. That doesn't sound good to me at all. Any tips for getting him to offer up any details he may have left out on his own?

As far as I know, he met her at the event he was attending. He claims he doesn't even remember her name. Typing it out makes me think he's full of it. I don't know.

Either way, he's signed the POJA and is actively honoring it. Dr. Harley says that if someone is doing that, there's good reason to believe you can trust them. He's been so attentive and is trying really hard to meet my ENs.

My husband travels very rarely for work. But it does happen and it's non-negotiable. I'm not interested in making waves concerning his job. He's worked incredibly hard to get where he is and we love his company. He won't be there forever, but for now, one or two trips to LA or Singapore a year are a reality. I want to know what kinds of things we can do to strengthen trust and set reasonable boundaries and guidelines for eachother during those trips.

I am very hurt, yes. But I don't really feel like I've survived an affair. Strapping my husband to a polygraph test and telling him he can never travel again seems kind of... Counterproductive. I don't see how either would solve anything.

That said, thank you for answering. I appreciate it.

The best way to get the truth is to schedule a polygraph. Polygraphs are very accurate but typically the spouse admits the truth BEFORE the test because they don't want to flunk it. We have had many amazing outcomes with polygraphs. So that is where I would begin.

And his business travel is "non negotiable?" Then your marriage won't make it. Anything that comes before your marriage will eventually come between you. His travel has already caused you enormous conflict. You wouldn't be here discussing his possible affair if he didn't travel. So if you want to recover your marriage, that has to go. Nothing can come before your marriage if you want to stay married.

We aren;t going to give you "boundaries" for traveling. That would be like giving you boundaries for drunk driving. You have already been smacked over the head because of the business travel, and a continuation of the same practice is just asking for it. Your husband has very likely had one affair and will have more unless those conditions change. You are now VOLUNTEERING FOR IT.

Here is the "boundary:" do not spend the night apart again

Have you snooped through his cell phone and email to see what he has been doing?

I can appreciate what you're saying, but I don't think it's realistic that we'll never spend the night apart again and I think the drunk driving comparison is extreme. Like I said, he doesn't travel often. But it happens. I actually traveled more than he did this year. He thinks we should try to work it so that I can go with him on the LA trips, which will be great. But we can't afford for me to go to Singapore... And he does have to do that once a year or so. I'm not going to ask that he quit his job... And no matter who he works for in this field, there's bound to be some traveling.

As for the polygraph, I understand. But they're not particularly accurate and I wouldn't trust a negative result any more than I do his word. He said he would be more than happy to take one if I thought it would help. But if he's lying, I want him to be honest because he wants to be and he respects me enough to give me that. I don't want to bait him into the truth by hanging something over his head. That seems manipulative to me. Not to mention... How much does that even cost?

I have done some snooping, but he's a computer programmer. If he wanted to hide things from me, it would be incredibly easy for him to do it.

That said, he uses the same password for all his email/social networking accounts. He's showed me how to look up his location tracker via google/Samsung. There's a file manager on his phone that shows every download he's ever received. I don't want it to sound like he denies access to anything. He doesn't. But he has multiple work computers that I obviously don't have access to. And he could easily write software to encrypt anything he didn't want read.

You already know it is not extreme because it is very likely he has already had an affair. When you get hit playing chicken, the solution is not to try to become a better chicken player.. The solution is to get out of the road.


This is a moot point because it has happened enough for him to have an affair. One time is too much when you know what happens. People who want to protect their marriages don't spend the night apart.

If you won't change that, then welcome to your future. Unless the condition that led to his affair changes, you can expect more of the same.

I don't see much point in posting here if you won't follow just very basic rules, because without them, your marriage will not make it. I hope you are not one of those people who have to learn everything the hard way.

If you want to get the truth out on the table and move forward, you need to put aside your unrealistic notions about honesty and infidelity. Cheaters are not "honest" unless faced with direct evidence or a polygraph test.

As for the polygraph, we have had some amazing results on this forum over the years. It is silly and unrealistic to expect a cheater to be "honest" on his own. That tells me you don't understand much about cheaters.

If you are only looking at what he gives you access to, then he can work around that. Even the dumbest wayward knows how to delete files, use an affair phone and leave behind a phone with GPS.

Of course it is not "manipulative." Manipulate means:

"control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously."

The fact that most way wards confess before the test is not unscrupulous or unfair. Do you believe the police are unscrupulous when a perp confesses his crime on the way to the polygraph test? What is unscrupulous is lying and cheating to your spouse. Catching them is not unscrupulous.

My first husband cheated on me and was completely honest about it. I never even suspected him of it.

I don't like to put labels on people. There is no absolute truth for everyone.

And I'm not sure how there can possibly be rules in regards to every marriage. There's an entire forum here for military couples, right? However, I suppose if I'm expected to conform to a set of firm guidelines simply because a stranger on the internet told me to, you're right... I don't see much point in posting here. If the only advice you can give me is "never spend the night apart again", I can't get anywhere. How would we even accomplish that without him losing a career that he loves and everything he's worked so hard for?

I'm pretty sure we can figure something out. And actually, this thread has been very helpful.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond

I believe you know it is not true here or you wouldn't have this problem in the first place.


Is that the absolute truth?


It is absolutely true that you do not have to "conform" to any rule. You most certainly do not. But if you want to solve the problems in your marriage, those are the rules you need to follow. You can take them or leave them. It is all the same to me.

Those "rules" were developed by Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders based on years of research, trial and error. He is not some "stranger on the internet."

Anyway, you can take the advice or leave it. It is all the same to us. Best wishes...

Forgive me, but I've never read anything from Dr. Harley that says a marriage will fail if spouses travel away from each other occasionally. If he has, I suppose I'm surprised to hear it. I probably wouldn't be here at all if I knew that was his stance on the subject. And I don't know how I can reasonably tell my husband to forfeit his career and still be following the terms of the POJA.

I found Dr. Harley's book and articles to be very uplifting and encouraging. What he wrote about trust after an affair doesn't seem to coincide with what you're saying. Not to mention, I don't even know if my husband had an affair or not and will likely never know. But the likelihood that he did is the exact same as the likelihood that he didn't.

I really just hoped to gain some insight in how to cope with how I'm feeling about things, but I think it might be better to contact Dr. Harley directly.

Again, thank you for taking the time to discuss it with me. Though I don't agree with your perspective, I certainly appreciate it. It was helpful in that my resolve is a little stronger. Our marriage will make it. I've never questioned that, really. I just want it to be stronger and I'm sure it will be.

"Never spend the night apart" IS one of Dr. Harley's rules for a successful marriage.

You are obviously not familiar with his works if you don't know this. Here are his quotes and radio clips about the subject. He tells people over and over again on the radio show to never spend the night apart. He doesn't spend the night apart from his own wife. Traveling Jobs

I am surprised you don't see the value of this rule given your own bad experience that has resulted from traveling. It would seem this would be obvious after your own experience.


You don't understand the POJA. First off, a spouse's career should complement a marriage. If it is harmful to the marriage, it should be eliminated. In your situation, this is a basic extraordinary precaution that is not subject to the POJA. Even so, it is not a violation of the POJA to ask your spouse to stop doing something that makes you unhappy. In this case, it should have never been there in the first place.


You are not familiar with Dr. Harley's comments about "trust." If you were, you would know he advises against trust and he certainly advises against spending the nights apart.


I agree this is a good idea. You seem to want to reject anything you don't like, so I agree it would be a good idea to contact him directly. You can contact him here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html


I have shared Dr Harley's perspective with you. So you are disagreeing with Dr Harley. It is against the TOS of this board to give any advice that is contrary to Dr. Harley's. All of the posters on this thread, including myself, have gone through Dr Harley's course, have met him and have listened to hundreds of hours of his radio show.

If you find anything I have said that contradicts Dr. Harley, you can click on "notify" and report me to the moderators. My posts will be removed. Like I said, it is against the TOS here to post contradictory information.

This is your future if you don't change the environment - spending the nights apart - that led to this event:

I have rejected nothing, just respectfully disagreed. I'm sorry if you find that offensive. It has nothing to do with not liking something. I simply don't see a reasonable way to follow this advice.

I am happy that Dr. Harley's chosen career allows for him to be with his wife every night.

Perhaps I took a different meaning from Dr. Harley's articles than you have. I am definitely not as well aquainted with them, so I'm definitely not saying you're wrong. It is very possible I've misunderstood...However, you do sound contradictory. I don't find it necessary to report you for anything. You've obviously been here a long time.

If Dr. Harley can help my husband form a plan to be together every night without hurting us financially, we will be more than happy to follow it. We would like to always spend the night together. But I don't seem to be getting any suggestions for how to accomplish that here, so perhaps he'll have some we can consider.