LovingAnyway, suggested I start this new thread. So I've cpoied this post from the thread "Dance of Anger" which LovingAnyway wanted to respond to. I was no sure how to go about dong this so I simply copied and pasted.


"Chris,
Learning about "countermoves" helped me as well. I look back from the time we attended MB seminar (Jan 2010), began the lessons etc and then I made a big move (from my perspective) to make a change in a few of our patterns of functioning. These changes also included individuals peripheral to our relationships whom had become dependent on our so-called 'normal' but unconscious way of functioning. I'd say I'm still dealing with countermoves from various individuals that are peripheral to our relationship. (The tail trying to wag the dog!) Its certainly gotten complicated as we are dealing w/both adult children still tryng to get on their feet and a staff of employees operating on a schedule based production line. So how "we" operate creates a whole cascade of behaviors that affects many individuals and families.

It was hardest to 'see' the countermoves coming from my husband though. Even weirder is seeing it in myself! Probably the best advise I got came from Steve Harley. He uses an analogy regarding piloting an airplane. He says when you learn to fly your taught to "follow the instruments and NOT your senses." In otherwords when you fly in difficult conditions with low visibility it can be very difficult (and dangerous) to get your bearings and know which way is up etc. So rather then allowing your own senses to guide you, you must choose to use the instrument panel of the plane.

Such is the case during more heightened anxiety periods when you are trying to make changes. When we've made the mistake to follow our senses or emotions and not say stick to our plan for UA its only increased our anxieties and our perspective has become less hopeful.

Another practicle maneuver has been to physically take ourselves away from our normal environment at least temporarily where we tend to more easily get pulled back into old patterns and start the blame game. An example of this is when my husband was having difficulties giving up a RA he'd become very compulsive about. I made a last minute reservation to a B&B. Doing this made for a much more positive experience together that weekend.

I've also challenged myself and was pleasantly surprised. My husband had bought a "dream" motorcyle about 6 years ago. At the time I became seriously ill with an inner ear condition that made it dangerous for me to ride on the back. We developed a perspective that I don't ride with my husband. We decided we'd give it a go recently. I was somewhat worried but I did it anyway. He dressed me in old gear of his. I looked OK on the bike but when I got off (we stopped for lunch) everthing was hanging down and dragging. We road around the countryside. I really enjoyed the unique perspective from the bike. It could be a little scary sometimes. Still, it made me think I was being held there on the back by some angel flying with me. I liked that. We could stay connected while riding as my husband hooked up a audio system w/microphones and we could listen to music too. It was surprisingly easy to hear even though I've become deaf due to complications from the surgeries on my ear. Anyway, my husband seemed to really enjoyed this too so we went out the next weeked and purchased gear to fit me. The second time we rode my husband didn't like the location of where we rode as there were urban areas in part of the touring. At least thats what he told me later on. But at first he didn't tell me this and because of all the drama and sense of anxiety surrounding his giving up his RA I became afraid when he didn't seem that excited after the 2nd touring. My confidence waxing and wanes and I want to know or receive signs he's enjoying himself and our new activity. But he's not so animated or expressive and we've yet to delve into the affection lesson. Still, for me, his seemingly indifference after we've done something he's been really into for along time and now having me join him, to me is a bit of a countermove. I say this because he'd like to return to his other RA that Dr Harley believes he'd become addicted to. One way he could possibly justify returning to his old RA would be for me to also learn to love it. My point is if he would get outwardly excited about me riding with him, how might he convince me to get involved with his old RA?

I figure in a lot of ways I've got to give myself a significant amount of positive self talk and I read a lot and ask questions. I really don't have much support immediately around me. I can easily slip into becoming worried about who I am while my husband struggles with his own demons or whatever. Steve told me he can save folks a lot of money in therapy by reminding anyone whom is say a Christian of who they are: 1. child of God 2.Wife/Husband 3.Parent. Does not matter if we happen to be failing in either area.

With that, I have re-centered my attention on my relationship with God.

This is my experience or how my efforts have panned out so far."

graceful.....could you tell me how much your H did the RA thing he was addicted to? was it daily or monthly? Just curious as I never thought of a RA addiction until your post....and that's true you both need to have something you both do together and love....I am also searching for this for my spouse and I.

Hey, nice thread you've got here...love what you've done with it.



I see your quote above as you revealing your hidden DJ...and you even explained where it came from in you.

You "read" him as not being as excited on the second touring...and your perception was affected by your own sense of drama and anxiety from his recent choice to stop his obsessive, is that correct?

I think comparing his demeanor from the first outing to the second seemed to validate your DJ so you couldn't see it. Fear will do that...fear is where DJs come from. Not reacting to your fear is what is important now, in changing your choices.

And your H chose to stop his obsessive RA (recreational activity <--because RA has meant Revenge Affair for awhile on MB)...

And he chose to take you on first tour and second tour. His demeanor changed...make a promise to yourself to experience each RC activity new, each time, with him...don't compare.

And make a promise to yourself to ask, not guess, not accept the automatic assumptions we are primed to have from reading our spouse's body language. Your job as his partner is to KNOW him...not to guess or assume him.

And respect he makes his choices. Ask to know or wait and let him share...and he did...that HIS expectations for the tour weren't fulfilled and it rankled him. He looked forward to re-creating that first tour experience with you...and it didn't happen...and you got to be part of that.

Sharing new experiences together is important to your relationship...seeing new together...is bonding, shares more of who we are today with each other. Keep that in mind because then we don't compare...how can you really compare new to new?

Re-read Steve's advice about not relying on your senses...you've got instrumentation now...depend on it.

I'm not sure I saw any counter-moves. I do know that I fall back into old patterns easily during crisis or high stress. And that's true for my DH, too. Sometimes, it's me following him into old stuff...or him following me. We do that old dance...and we rely on each other to tell the other what dance we're doing.

I had to choose to accept that I didn't know what my DH was thinking/feeling/perceiving...until I asked. And if I guessed, it better be out loud, to him, not assumed in my head.

Kudos for challenging yourself on the motorcycle, coming and posting on MB, and being open...

Your H isn't more powerful than you...he really can't convince you to think/feel/believe/act. You choose those. However, falling in love with each other can sure feel as if the other is making you love them...be aware they cannot. You choose.

LA

And also, do you mind sharing what the RA is?

Thanks Loving. I will re-read your post a few times over and take it all in. You bring up some great points. I wrote his from the perspective of our journey thus far so fortunately 'mistakes' and my own vulnerabilitilies and learning (if you will) have been experienced, duely noted for what I've gained from them. Still, its helpful to get added value from an outsider too at this point especially now that its not so raw. But yes I have ramped up my own sense of anxieties or some might say its my reptilian brain reacting to my husbands maneurisms and out of fear jumping to conclusions. My challenge when we came back from the 2nd touring was to check in with him and challenge my own assumptions in a respectful fashion. Plain and simple he was not as excited about the 2nd route. The good news is I'm improving and causing less strain or helping my reptilian brain to stand down. Basically relaxing more and I believe being a supportive partner.

Chris, my husband was involved in karate. He would still like to return to karate at some point. He keeps telling me he will be returning to karate. He chosen to take a break from karate and work on our marriage. I continue to give him "I" statements in a calm manner regarding karate and I mirror back to him the reason why he enjoys the sport.

Gemstone,
My husband was involved with karate 10-20 hours per week. Mind you, he has a grueling work schedule too. Our kids called it the "church of karate." He had a second life surrounding karate. Our lives, his business was scheduled around karate. It significantly affected his other relationships. Even the folks running the dojo (karate studio) recognized the tendency towards obsessive compulsiveness behavior and were worried about him. He's worried about aging and wants to keep up with the 15 year old males at the dojo. Finally, the red flag was raised when he admitted to developing an attraction to a woman at the dojo. She was not aware of his feelings, no intimate relations. I appreciate he told me his feelings before anything more happened. It scared us both. I believe he began to struggle and use his habit of independent behavior and OC to sooth himself after several family loses and difficulties. Not an excuse however. MB has helped me place boundaries. I was raised to be a big giver and had not thought his RA's without me were such a problem.

I think you did very well changing your actions and asking after 2nd route. How'd you feel about yourself?



I think you choosing not to react, to stand down, is being loving and supportive of you, too. It's a win/win.

Have you seen the Recreational Enjoyment Inventory yet? I think exploring some of those (not choosing one to just go whole hog with) would be great, especially if you neither of you have done it before. Experiencing new together...can be just once, or something you want to keep doing...

LA

Hello again....I bolded the part I am not understanding....could you or someone else respond what that means to use I and mirror back why he likes the sport so much? Even using a example sentence would help me get it LOL! Thanks

Loving,
Yes, we've been working on the lessons and the RC including the inventory which was the first lessons we seriously attacked. It's a difficult one for us and its yet ongoing. We've been trying various activities together, many more besides touring on my husbands bike. I only mentioned this particular activity in the post above as it was originally a response to another thread regarding "countermoves."

The biggest difficulty has been my husband giving up karate (at least for now) and then dealing with the aftermath of the void left in his life. I felt under tremendous pressure to perform or become fit enough to perform along side highly trained athletes. There had been a sense of competiveness and the contrast effect going on while he remained involved w/karate post seminar that ramped things up. It had been difficult not to compare our experiences and my husbands reactions over his more animated responses to karate activities during this phase. I suppose its a bit like some guy becoming addicted to porn and self gratification and not finding SF with his wife as fulfilling as his addiction during the period of withdrawal after giving up the addiction activities. I'm not saying this is where I'm at now in terms of reactivity as I've already described. I'm simply expressing my previous feelings and telling of my journey.

I think a major point you and others here and of course Dr Harley's materials have made --which I will keep in mind-- is the notion of 'giving' without intent of receiving while using the POJA to protect. In the world in which I was raised 'giving' was crammed down my throat in an abusive fashion and more recently this lifestyle surrounding an outside activity was not my choice but something I was forced to give to as a condition of the relationship. This recent experience has caused me to review once again in an introspective way how I got to this space so I do not repeat myself. And I believe it is important to see patterns in my husbands behavior so I will respond differently as we go along. I do not see this as a DJ that I would articulate to him but keep to myself as a que to investigate his feelings and perceptions. For example, when I 'read' my husband after the 2nd touring I did not make accusations---I inquired how he was doing. Or when he acted angry when he received emails from his Sensei (owner) at the karate studio (dojo) towards me and discontinued that weeks UA I asked how he felt and discussed my own feelings openly.

To me, the important thing has been to not emotionally distance ourselves in even these difficult situations and thus go back to living in quiet desperation or within our own little worlds. More recently while we began working on the conversation lesson--- creating safety within the relationship seemed important and I read a lot about that.

We've definately had highpoints where you feel so hopeful and then low points it feels so discouraging.

Chris,
"I" statements are: "I feel _______when_______" "I love to see_______while we_______."
Your taking ownership of your feeling, wants, desires, etc. rather than shaming/blaming/accusing with: "When YOU do_____I feel_______. "

"Mirroring back": Person A says something while person B listens or receives the information. Then person B repeats the information back as person A originally stated.

The intent in mirroring is to insure person B heard person A. Also because we tend to not really listen to what the other person is actually saying (but rather begin thinking more about what we want to say while they are speaking) mirroring keeps us in the moment and the oter person has our full undivided attention.

Gemstone,

I wanted to add to Grace's reply about mirroring.

Conversation between two people is tougher than it sounds. We're taught we hear and respond (that's conversatin'). Amazingly, we hear what the other person said through our own filter. And what we heard may not be what they said. It's so automatic we assume half the sentences, sometimes.

Also, we're hearing while we're thinking of responses in our heads...sometimes taking offense, thinking of how to counter, make them understand us better...not much room left to really hear the other person.

In my marriage, we call it "mapping"...doing all that other stuff in our heads. And we can use that term when we say, "I'm sorry I didn't hear you. I was mapping."



Mirroring really cleans out the noise...because we approach conversation without assuming we can easily know what the other person is saying. "I heard you say you didn't like your boss doing a spot check on your store today, is that correct?" It's offering for the speaker to confirm or clarify. I learned it as "listen and repeat"...and I'm sensitive to it because I was a really bad mapper/poor listener (and had no idea I was). After doing the listen and repeat awhile, the next level is to listen and repeat with filter.

"I heard you say you hate your boss and really wish his boss would fire him, is that correct?" That's where my filter, picking up on body language (see, Grace, not alone), tone, my DH's eyes, his attitude as I see it...

Listen and repeat isn't stupid...it's honest. It's an act of respect and intimacy. Doesn't assume you heard what the other person said as they wanted you to...two participants, each half of the conversation...and NEITHER, no matter how clearly one thinks they are communicating, controls how the other person hears what is said.

Goes both ways.

There's an exercise our MC had us do for listening and sharing. You clear one 1/2 hour time slot free from all distractions (no tv, no music, no kids, no phones). One is the speaker, the other the listener (and timer). The speaker begins and talks for 20 minutes straight. The listener listens for that period, remembering what the speaker says. At 20 mins, the listener then summarizes what they heard for five minutes. Then the speaker confirms or clarifies in response to the summary, for five minutes.

Important part...No discussion about the exercise or any statements...no rebuttals, no comments for 24 hours. And you can only do the exercise every two days. So you end up doing it twice a week, really.

This is really hard to do...both for the speaker and the listener. And it opened our eyes and ears to just how much mapping we each did...and how difficult it is to talk 20 minutes straight without a response.

Equally difficult for both parties. Wonderfully bonding and made love deposits in both banks because of the effort each must put forth to do it. We did it consistently for a year and a half and we still go back to it when we get off track.

We have our own noise in our heads...both as speakers and listeners. We assume we're really hearing when we aren't...and we assume we're clearly speaking when we aren't. Discovering this together is intimate. And it taught me to not DJ, not AO; to not discount, dismiss what my DH said...and to hear his words as his...to know him and stop judging him.

Eliminating LBs is trickier, I think, than just stopping. It's a process of stopping them aloud to our spouses, then stopping them inside our thoughts and beliefs...by doing so, we really get to know ourselves deeper than before.

I had the fear that if my beloved knew I wasn't listening, then he wouldn't love me. Despicable behavior. And like Mark1952 wrote this week, Space and Grace were both in that exercise...and practicing taught me to rely on those and allow myself to be loved anyway.

Grace,

I think it's great you both are exploring together new things to do...I'm sorry I assumed just the bike/touring as replacement for the karate. What seems crazy is addiction replacement...doesn't mean it isn't effective.

If he were addicted to an RA WITH you, how would you feel?

Please allow yourself, also, the Space and Grace to repeat old habits...to have an automatic DJ in your head, and see how the change in you is that you stop, hold it, know it and let it go...because I believe part of falling in love with our spouses, again and again, is doing so with our changes, ourselves.

Knowing your own beauty enables you to see different beauty in your spouse...accepting your own shortcomings as yours, same thing.



LA

My husband and are are doing well these days. He is much more invested in MB. It seems we are fine tuning and are easily rectifying when we see ourselves falling back to old habits. We began working on the "Affection" lesson last week. I'm now less concerned we have to all of a sudden pull out all stops to get into new habits and by the end of the lesson week have everything down pat. I've chilled out. Last week was a getting started week. Now our second week we are rolling up our sleeves and have now written up our inventories. So off we go. And although this particular lesson is not as difficult to perform, in many respects for me I believe it will benefit me greatly. Its wonderful to actually have a map of my husbands own specific needs for affection. He's not the kind of person who lays his own needs for others to meet out there. He expects himself to do everything for himself. So this is a welcoming change.

Over the weekend I expressed some concern and anxiety for our making a significant investment that will involve most of our assets. In a way we are nearly forced to make this investment. I'm concerned to blindly go along or be a peacemaker (old bad habit) when I'm not certain whether my husband is a "owner" or "renter" so to speak in our relationship. He says he is trying and he has proved that to be true. I told him I was worried about being sandbagged in the future. For one thing he will occasionally talk about going back to karate at the particular dojo
he'd developed an infatuation with a woman as I've already described. So in order for him to maintain his established business we need to move. Moving will tie up our assets but he's being forced to move. I realize MB and re-establishing our love will take time even under the best of circumstances. But we are being forced to move the business right away. I worry our assets will be tied up and my husband will decide he does not want me and I'll be in an even worse pickle. Really this "investment" could fulfill a dream or become another nightmare.

My brother called me yesterday and informed me my sister is seriously ill. She is in the later stages of alcoholism and has an addiction to prescription drugs. She's dying. And she is a drug and alcohol educator in a public health department! My other siblings and her partner are working at gettign her into treatment. I live a thousand miles away and can't directly help. Because my sister is so "educated" she is being manipulative in a very sophisticated way. I'm finding my recent counseling with Steve H and MB seminar is helping me be of some help at least to myself. For one thing when I spoke with my mother I recognized I needed to put up a boundary with her as she began to want to force me and became verbally abusive with me. Its very much as I had to place a boundary with my husband to ensure we negotiate what I'll be able to give not just give to maintain status quo. For example in my mothers case to fulfill an old role she set for us to help her enable my father, an alcoholic which is a classic behavior very detrimental to children involved. So she appears to be working her adult children to perform in kind. When I told her I would help my sister directly and would not be able to be in a role for her, she had an angry outburst. All this happened after she was discussign her expectations of us in the situation with my sister. I asked her if she had thought about getting support for herself to help my sister. This made her angry and she said she does not need counseling, "I'm stonger than that" and started to talk about how she would get all she needed from her other children. This is when i said I could not fulfill a role for her. Its this kind of thing that screws children of alcoholics up.

graceful: I would like to know your story. I am 59, my WH is 60, we have 2 adult kids and one grand daughter.