Why did you send a letter to your husband for recovery?
You need to be in PLan B with an intermediary and no direct contact with WH.

Can you go into Plan B?

Even if there is such a thing, it makes no difference when the wayward shows no signs of recovery. Keep looking at the points of recovery MelodyLane listed out at the beginning of this thread. If he suddenly jumps up and is willing to do ALL of that then you MIGHT consider taking him back. Until then, forget it.

As it happens, Dr. Harley says that ANYONE who is in an affair can be validly diagnosed at that time as "narcissistic."

Jedi_Knight , I sent a letter because WH asked me to write to him after I added him if he would be willing to talk about the possibility of a R.

This was after the shock of hearing that OW6 is now official( she has been a secret to our friends for 2yrs-they all say that they think WH would come home like a shot)

Also on the background of some major life events for me-the likelihood of redundancy, plus I had major abdominal surgery for a long term condition 8 weeks ago.

I missed WH and our life together, the security of marriage, our family life. WH was very attentive , visited me frequently in hospital, ( his office is down the corridor), seemed visibly upset when I told him he was not my NOK anymore.

I succumbed to my vulnerabilities.

I know as MelodyLane pointed out that if he was genuinely wanting to reconcile he would have been asking me to talk and to find a way forward.

I have to accept that WH has been playing me for a fool, cake eating. I have effectively been Plan Aing him whilst he has been out dating and doing what he pleases.

I have made an appt with a divorce lawyer this week. I don't think the one I have is tough enough but I will interview a few and see.

Once I have my ducks in a row I will go into Plan B.

I am struggling to decide what to say to the DDs about Plan B. or rather, when to expose the details to them, and together, or as and when I can?

Then I need to go NC with MIL also.

There is a lot to do.

I don't regret asking WH if he would consider at-his disinterest-he accepts invitations to spend time with us but makes no suggestions himself-speaks volumes.

Markos, I accept your point, but the difference is that narcissists lack empathy. So there can be no recovery as they feel entitled, and never feel remorse or regret, or feel any pain for hurting the BS. WH has always taken the line that his As are a reaction to my lack of affection, care. Interestingly he uses the term " a void" in our marriage. Yet he refused to attend counselling with me. I found some old emails I had sent in 2003 to a friend. I had told her that WH told me he wasn't unhappy in our marriage, but he met this woman and fell in love.
He quickly changed his tune-I was too this, not enough that, the usual fog speak.

I long for the man I thought I married but sadly, he doesn't exist.

Deluded.

Dr. Harley does not advocate the use of personality disorder classifications in the clinical setting because they imply permanence and lack a defined treatment. There is no utility to calling a wayward "narcissistic". It will not give you any useful insight on what to do. There is help for waywards, which is why MB exists, but you won't find help with this approach. So, unless it is your intention to feel hopeless, you should steer clear of such labels.

It's all a moot point since he won't do what he would need to do to change.

Deluded, if you want to tell yourself he lacks empathy or can't change and that makes you feel better about moving on, go ahead. Please don't come post it around here to other folks, though, because it might hinder possible marriage recovery efforts for others. As MrE says, Dr. Harley avoids those labels for a reason - it's not true that they are permanent.

By the way, Dr. Harley actually says that humans tend to lack empathy in general!

Point taken, and of course I don't want to discourage anyone in their travails, quite the opposite.

I remain hopeful in the face of resistance. I will do a robust Plan B and I really don't want to be seen off from MB!

Thanks again.

Could someone answer my question about whether to, and how best to, contact OW6's ex H for info about what he knows about the A?

Deluded

Any addict lacks empathy. You can't steal for heroin or cheat on your wife with empathy. All active affairs kill the cheaters empathy. It's rather painful for them when they regain it to realize what they've done sometimes.

Anything an addict says about why they are addicts can be safely discounted as drunken rambling.

Thank you.


I am very upset tonight. I knew WH had the day off. I decided to drop in at 6 pm ish. Unfortunately OW6's car was there. Lights on. I knocked but no answer.

Later I dropped a letter to WH expressing sadness that he has not responded to my letter, let alone acknowledged receipt! And tonight he is with OW! Prob at a fireworks party which I am not invited to!

It is very difficult being an apparently single woman!!

I dropped a letter in stating how sad I am, and that the ball is in WH's court.

Resisted the impulse to let OW6's tyres down!!

Deluded

You should not be chasing him with another letter about how sad you are. You sound pathetic and needy. Dr. Harley mentions this as being a "turn off" to the WH. You can do everything you can to break up the affair, but don't chase him, cry to him, beg him to come back, etc.

Your WH seems like a disrespectful jerk. He's not a stand up guy who deserves you. The sooner you realize this, the better. Yes, they have charm and can be wonderful. But, their other side is cruel and abusive.

Please stop chasing him. You just make yourself look very unattractive to him. Just go into a dark Plan B and restore your sanity. You don't have to live this.

I agree. On the radio Dr. Harley has explained how men do not find it attractive when a woman chases them.

When will you be going into Plan B?

What plan is that? The doormat plan?

You should be getting into Plan B. Not even plan A involves this much attentiveness. In Plan A you are firm and controlled, opposing the affair and letting the spouse know they are about to lose you when THEY make contact. Would a 'single woman' behave like this?? How many dates do you think one would get leaving 'I am sad' letters?

You only reward his neglect.


You need to make Plan B happen and make it so you live your own life. Yes you will be in great pain for a short time. I've done it, I know.

I am trying to be consistent with WH. I did ask him in the letter if he would meet to talk about R. At that meeting I plan to offer him a chance at R if he accepts the conditions-NC, etc.
I predict he will refuse since we have been separated for 2 yrs. He sent me a text saying that he would have "jumped at" the chance 6 months ago but has now had to make a new life without me and he's done that now.
However he then asked me to write the letter outlining what had made me offer the chance to discuss R.

If I go into Plan B before that happens, he will rightly accuse me of raising his hopes falsely wont he?

He has offered to meet this weekend to talk.

Meanwhile I am waiting for my copy of updated SAA to arrive ( cant find the okd one anyway) and have asked a friend to be an IM for me. She is going to let me know.

I am also seeing potential pit bull lawyer tomorrow.

My triggers are always when I see OWs car at WH's house, or when I know he is withher. I know I will feel calmer once I go into Plan B.

The other thing that makes me doubt whether there is anything left to save is that OW6 has been around for 2 yrs from my snooping, although she has been kept a secret by WH until recently.

So I anticipate going into Plan B on Monday, and will send the PBL that day also.

Does tgis make sense? Iknow I an being a doormat. It is a very hard habit tobreak. I have continued to do all WH 's admin etc even whikst separated in part because I fear his anger.

WH was surprised I was expressing a wish to consider R because I had started the D process when he moved out. So Ithought I needed to be explicit once I realised that I still care for him. I do reLise though that thise feelings were prob triggered by WH making LB deposits whilst I was in hospital.

Before my op I was starting to look to a life without WH.

Deluded

Did you read our posts about Plan B? Please focus and start planning to go into Plan B!! Change your locks, line up an intermediary and send him a short version of this letter [I would alter this quite a bit since it is clear he is a playah - he is not having affairs because of problems in the marriage but because he is out chasing twat]

Sample Plan B letter, from SAA (revised edition) pages 77-78:

My Dearest __________,
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair possible. I foolishly pursued my goals without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me the most and we are now both suffering for my mistake. [Add your willingness to address other complaints that the unfaithful spouse may have communicated prior to the affair.]

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship once and for all. Living with you under these conditions has been the most painful experience of my life, and I can no longer endure it.

Until your affair ends, and you are willing to follow a plan of reconciliation with me, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. Our friends, ________, have agreed to help make arrangements for you to see our children on schedule that is mutually convenient. They will provide transportation. If you want to communicate about the children or any other mater, it will have to be through them.

I ask that you respect my decision to separate from you th is way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship, and I simply cannot be with you any longer knowing that you are together. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently end your relationship, follow precautions to avoid absolutely any contact with the other person, and join me in a plan to restore our relationship, I will be wiling to discuss our future together with you.

I hope that we will be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We can build a new lifestyle together in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never be a reason for us to be separated. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you to be my best friend.

I cared for you when we married and I continue to care for you right up to this day. But I cannot be with you or help you as long as you are in this relationship.

With all my love,
(signed)

This letter should be delivered by your friends to the unfaithful spouse, and a copy sent to the lover with a note at the bottom saying:

I love ______ with all my heart and am willing to do whatever it takes to make her happy. I will wait for that chance.

Do you have an intermediary lined up? What about changing the locks on your doors? Do you have a plan in place to prevent him from contacting you?

Does she have balls? Does she understand that her only job is to act as a SPAM filter and only pass on pertinent information about finances, etc? He will likely send a lot of fog babble email and her job will be to ignore it and make sure you don't get it.

This is all a waste of your time that is based on delusional thinking. Carrying through on this delusion that he has any intention of wanting you back will just harm you more. You need to abandon this pipe dream and take back control of your own life.

Waywards in active affairs are like drunk people. You are only talking to the drunk in the street. You are trying to be consistent with the town drunk - and you are succeeding!!!

I have never read such nonsense as your last reply. Who cares what he thinks/feels/wants? We know what he wants; his affairs on tap and you safely secure on his backup hook.

He wants you to be backburner stew and right now you are the Queen of the Backburner. Ready and willing whenever he gets bored enough of ho's to torment you some with Ifs and Buts. Feel good?

He has you on his spare fishing hook good and proper.




Translation: Here, little fishy, fishy!! Here is some bait to tempt you to your doom. Wriggle harder! Swim faster! I've ordered whore-burger takeout but I fish for you as a back-up plan. If I can bothered I might devour you, your hopes and dreams, whole. Otherwise I will toss you back repeatedly with bleeding lips from each contact with me, ad infinitum.







He is a wayward. He does not refuse recovery - you do! If he complies with recovery conditions - and is wholeheartedly remorseful - you will accept contact with him, if he does not, you refuse to ever speak with him again.

It is not a matter of the cheaters acceptance/refusal. Not if you are the one taking control.


He is a drunk addict with no thoughts beyond 'Here fishy fishy' and 'Here little whore'. Therefore no one on this site cares what WH thinks, says, wants or feels. Nor should you.

Please do not use the terms 'WH thinks' or 'WH wants'or WH says' again as they are totally irrelevant and deluded points to make.




No one cares what the drunk adulterers think/will do.



'Here fishy fishy'



No one cares what WH feels.



No one cares what he feels.

You badly need Plan B and to withdraw from his crazy making. I think you should send him a text in the meantime asking for him to leave you alone unless he is 100pc on board with recovery and will take responsibility for healing you from his outrageous assaults on your heart. No, you will not meeting with him to talk him into it. He is either on board, hat in hand, or he is to leave you alone.

Stiffen your spine and stop jumping when he tells you to.

Any man can win his wife back from the darkest Plan B, if he decides to actually become a decent and caring husband and go about it the right way.