Under those circumstances I still wouldn't go to other counseling.

It doesn't matter what her motivation is - if you have an opportunity like this, take it! The program works even if her motivation is completely not what you want. If she will do the program with you, do it!

The toughest struggle for me at the moment is when your wife says says you are unrealistic or insecure or jealous to a request you make... it seems like it is a way for her to not consider a request.

One of the areas that has made me a little uncomfortable was my wife's interaction with one of our children's coaches. His is a divorced single man. My wife (as a parent of child) would spend a lot of time with him... many times when I was not around and some when I was around. Presumably talking about our child.

She then accepted being treasurer of swim team and had to interact more with him.

Let me be clear... in general asking some questions about your child and doing business in general with OS does not bother me.

But there are specific things that started to be red flags of concern or keep an eye out. Not 1 thing, but multiple things adding up.

1) I found she would go down to an area during swim meet where parents are not allowed, but only the coach is allowed and he would let her stay with him the whole meet. She was the only parent I have ever seen do this. I wasn't there, but she told me.

2) Many times even if I am there she goes to talk with the coach and it would be 10 or 15 minutes and I can't figure out why she needs to spend that much time with him while he is actually coaching. Presumably she is talking about daughter, but she tells me personal things about him (later) that tells me it isn't just about daughter.

3) There are some meets that I was unable to go, because of other child obligations so my wife goes and a group goes out to eat for lunch or dinner after meet and take kids. The 2 times my wife couldn't go the coach would ask my child where her mom was at. He didn't asked me he would go to my child. There were several other kids there where only the father could make it and the coach did not ask where that mom was.

4) Another time when we both went to the dinner my wife had to leave dinner at the end and take one of the children back to hotel (overnight event). The coach then asked my daughter where her mom was going. I am a very aware person and I watched how he interacted with other moms and anytime other moms left early (some did) he did not ask about them.

5) I also notice how he acts a little different around my wife than he does others. He sort of seems like he is a bit happier around her.

6) What the coach does say to me when I have to go to practice without her and there is paper work he needs to give her since she is treasurer... is he will say please give this to your lovely wife. I see him also give things to other husbands and he just says please give this to Sarah or Jane or whatever there name is.

I am a very perceptive person and pick up on things my wife never notices and usually I am on target. When I add up everything in the end I sense he has taken a liking to my wife and I would like my wife to be aware of this and limit her interaction.

There are 3 other men who are regular fathers at these meets and I know each one and none of them give me any reason for concern. I see my wife speak with them at times and how they interact and nothing as of yet gives me any concern with them. However the coach yes.

Do I think my wife is about to have an affair? No.
Do I think he will make some sort of advance on her out of the blue? Likely not.
If he did say or do something inappropriate (sexual or blatant) do I think my wife would stand up and stop it? Yes (as long as the relationship didn't slowly grow over time to a dangerous point).

So what is my point???

I have requested my wife limit her interaction with the coach. I have made this request in the past(many months ago) when I first noticed it and this was one of the areas she got pissed off about and thought I was just jealous and insecure and said it was one of the reasons she was going to walk out. Back then our interactions was much more volatile so we were not in a good place.

We are in what I think is a better place.

After seeing a few more interactions this weekend I made the request again. I said it made me feel a little uncomfortable at times and ask that she limits it to required conversation about swim team or specific issues with child. I didn't have to explain why as we had discussed this in the past and I was avoiding why.

She said she felt she had limited it (honestly no way for me to know as I am not always able to be there and can only go by her word) and she said that she keeps it to just business. Side note: I had actually requested she step down as treasurer a while back as it was taking too much time and she agreed... but... she decided to not step down even after we agreed.

Anyway... she then said that she felt she had been adjusting things, but she didn't see any problem with touching a man in the small of his back when she went up to talk with a man or when she is trying to get their attention or what not. Now I did not say anything about touching men... she brought this up. She knows it makes me uncomfortable. But I guess she felt like she wanted to state she didn't have a problem since this is one of those boundary issues discussed in the past.

I probably didn't respond correctly. I just said that it does make me uncomfortable and I would prefer she not be touching other men in general. She just replied with I don't see any issue with it. I replied that all I can do is request that you don't, let you know it makes me uncomfortable, but you have to decide whether or not you will continue doing it knowing it makes me uncomfortable or not.

I just don't know what else to say without getting disrespectful. It is like we are totally opposite. She is a free spirit and doesn't want boundaries and I (although have a free spirit side of me) I desire good boundaries and protection in marriage.

I am so discouraged.

That is very problematic and she is headed for an affair for sure. Has she ever had an affair before? Do you snoop on her?

Disrespectful judgments, like namecalling like this, are simply a tool to try to pressure someone to give you what you want.


You need to keep the disrespectful judgments and the independent behavior problems on the front burner - each time she engages in independent behavior, complain about it. Tell her it bothers you. Then move on, rather than debating it with her. Meanwhile, keep up the massive love bank deposits (are you following the Policy of Undivided Attention?)

If she is doing a job you don't want her doing, such as this treasurer position, I would bring it up every day. Tell her every day that it hurts you that she does it regardless of your feelings, and say that you want a marriage where both of you consider how the other feels in everything you do. Then don't debate her when she tries to talk about WHY you feel that way and how you shouldn't feel that way. Don't argue with her if she tries to tell you you shouldn't feel that way, or if she threatens to leave you. Just change the subject - the information has been passed to her, and that is all that matters at first.

Down the road if she continues to disregard your feelings, it may eventually become necessary to separate from her. But LONG before it gets to that point, she should be well aware that her behavior is hurting you, because you have been talking to her about it EVERY DAY. And even the process of you talking to her about it should have become routine for her by then, something that doesn't cause her much emotional distress or anxiety, because she is so used to hearing it from you - then she will be capable of calmly considering what you are saying, rather than reflexively trying to beat you with a DJ to make you stop bringing up this uncomfortable subject.

This gets really tricky, but I would be careful to avoid referring to your boundaries as "good" and implying that her lack of boundaries is "bad." Stick to the point that when she talks that long with someone, it hurts you, and when she does this treasurer job, it hurts you.

"It bothers me for you to be treasurer for that organization."
"Oh, that's just silly; nothing's going to happen."
"I know - it just bothers me."

"It bothers me for you to talk with our child's coach without me present."
"Come on, you are being ridiculous and insecure."
"I know - but it just bothers me."

This is very important.

You need to be so close to her that you know all of the details of her interactions - so close that, if she had an affair, it would be happening with your full knowledge.

Just a short while ago she emailed our group of spiritual leaders asking for more prayer and to see if some of them could meet with us. She thought "maybe a group setting with a mixed group might bring some insight".

What I take this as... "let me get my husband in a group and see if I can get some folks to say it is nothing wrong with her actions so husband can't make any more requests about boundaries."

I told her I didn't not mind meeting with our group of leaders, but I have no desire having this group give their opinion on what they think is right or wrong in a marriage on areas of boundaries... an obvious area that will vary. There will be some that will be with me and some with her. It will achieve nothing. My desire is for each of us to show extraordinary care for one another and not do things that we know harms the other.

Her response was... well this conversation causes harm to her.

I had asked her to lunch earlier today... she then said... I love you, but I am going to decline lunch with you. We need time to cool off. Now I have not showed any anger so I am guessing she is ticked off.

I believe she is just hoping one day I will be ok with her having low boundaries (granted she thinks she has strong boundaries). So I don't think it really matters whether something is uncomfortable to me or not.

Oh... last thing. When I had told her it made me uncomfortable and it was up to her to decide how to handle that she said she does care if something bothers me. My question though... if my uncomfortableness does matter and she does care... then why is it an issue????

Feeling defeated and if I think to much on it I feel myself getting angered, but I know that will do nothing good. I just don't get it.

I would suggest that you do whatever it takes to be present at every event where this coach is present - take over the job of bringing the child, so your wife isn't there.

See how much she balks at this - it will be telling.

I wouldn't go to such a meeting. Be a recalcitrant, incorrigible, unreachable guy who can't be reasoned with and just sticks to his "irrational" feeling that he doesn't want his wife doing these things. Don't discuss it with anybody.


"I understand, but what you are doing hurts me, and it will continue to hurt me until it stops."


Nope - you are going to keep this problem on the front burner. You are going to be cheerfully annoying and persistent about it.


Lecture alert, buddy! Don't tell her it's up to her to decide how to handle something. That is true, but quit trying to educate her.

Here is what I would do if I were you:

* snoop like a bloodhound and become so close to her daily activities that you know everything she is saying to the coach and to anyone else
* Go back to her asking about Harley and tell her you think you should do Dr. Harley's online seminar and accountability program together
* QUIT all counseling or any other attempts for people to intervene in your marriage. You WILL get bad results if you throw other ingredients into the recipe.

Tell her you changed your mind and you're not going!

In the earlier part of this thread I shared about her SSL and how she developed 2+ OS friendships and 1 in specific where she built a close friendship and was starting to go to lunch with him 1 on 1. No proof other than close friendship was found (which was bad enough for me). I believe there was an emotional affair (I don't think lust yet), but clearly he was meeting emotional needs of conversation and admiration.

I have snooped and this is how I found out about personal emails (again nothing every beyond a growing friendship and nothing showing sexual or lustful remarks).

Boundaries is an issue in general. She sees it as her personality and I see it as behaviors that can be adjusted.

She is headed right straight for an affair and I would wager she has had a few.

What kind of snooping do you do? I would have spyware on her phone, a GPS and a keylogger on her computer.

Keep reminding me of this!!!!

I 100% believe the OS friendship from over a year ago during the time of SSL was heading there given enough time. I believe at the absolute minimum he was meeting emotional needs of conversation and admiration. So if that is considered an emotional affair then that is what I felt happened. All correspondence found only alluded to a building friendship. Nothing ever sexual in nature or sexual innuendo. But definitely a friend. Nothing overly deep... no complaining about me or anything like that. My earlier posts shared all of the details.

All I know is it tore me up and still hits me every now and then... When I think about it I have to fight the flood of thoughts... did she ever really have anything other than a friendship building (which is bad enough for me).

Had I knew about MB right in the middle of all of that maybe I could have had a PI get involved and done a lot of snooping while all of it was active, but it had all come out and slowly through counseling and the fact the consultant no longer comes back on-site (his home office is 6 states away)... it all died down.
I am still watchful and check things. I don't have a GPS at the moment. My home computers I have tools on, but I don't have access to her company computer. I have requested she pull up her email in the past and she has and I will likely again in near future.

So do I have 100% knowledge of everything going on? No. Do I have an extreme amount of knowledge of what is going on and can account for her time, etc. Yes. Right now it would be very difficult for her to have a sexual affair. Is it possible she could build some close relationship at work? Yes, if she kept it off of phone and computer... but it would be extremely hard outside of work with our kids our schedules and other ways of telling where she is.

I have known my wife for 16+ years and from everything I have learned about her over the years is that she just doesn't see the dangers of OS friendships. Back when she was going out with the 1 OS friend for lunch I had asked if I was going out with OS friend for dinner would it bother her. She early on couldn't answer it... later she said it would probably bother her as she saw dinner was when work was over so I should be coming home to spouse. This made no sense to me... so I could go to lunch with another woman because it was still the work day????

I believe my wife has held these views ever since we dated... she had just agreed before marriage to having solid boundaries (I shared what mine are in earlier posts), BUT she has stated that she thought they were good boundaries, but later in practice she found them difficult and came to not agree with it.

Early on... before I started studying MB I remember asking how many times could she go out to lunch with OS friend until it was probably too much? Or how many times could I go out with OS friend for lunch until she started to have a problem with it. That was a dangerous question since she had no problem with going out with OS friend for lunch... but she never answered it back then.

I unfortunately do not know what her boundaries are. I believe if someone out of the blue makes a sexual advance or sexual talking to her she would put a stop to it... meaning if they cross the line completely. But up to that point... I don't know where the boundaries begin.

We do have an agreement that she will not be going out with other men to lunch and also not coed in general... other then special exceptions (see earlier posts) and as far as I can tell she as followed this... even though she doesn't 100% agree with it. There is also an agreement she would never reachout to the OS friends during SSL again. She failed once back in earlier part of year.

Anyway... in the end... she just doesn't see the problem with OS friendships and always has. Even though she has witnessed 5 marriages fail due to OS friendships leading to affairs.

I know what her boundaries are: she has none. If she has opposite sex friendships like this, she has no boundaries because she does not understand the RISK. She is doing what everyone in an affair DOES. They have opposite sex friendships. There are thousands of such cases over on the SAA forum here. This is HOW affairs start. And it is with a spouse who says "i would never do that."

Most people who have affairs don't go looking for them. IT is like the frog in boiling water, the problem begins when he gets in the water. Your wife is in the water all the time.

Can you get spyware on her phone so you can read her text messages?

Let me put this another way. Your comment is like saying "she is a good drunk driver, but I don't know where the boundaries begin." A married person who HAS OS friendships has no boundaries, period, because that is the most risky behavior of all. Just go ask the 1000's of people over on the SAA forum.

She has work phone that I can't get access to. She has a password and in the past would not give it to me saying it would violate HIPPA... although later she let me into her email when I requested it and found that one personal email after friendship was supposed to end.

But they are letting her switch from blackberry over to a personal phone that I will setup within the month and I'll have that one configured for monitoring.

If you talk to her about how affairs can happen with OS friendships she will agree that it can happen... heck she has witnessed 5 of them. But she never believes it could be her as she thinks she has boundaries and as they say "I would never do that".

I say the same thing as in I would LIKE TO BELIEVE I would never do that, but I know I am capable in the right circumstances.

This came up in counseling once and she said the same thing and after a while the counselor finally said each one of us in the room is capable of it and no one is exempt.

You are preaching to the choir on this... I agree... But I can't make her do anything. I do see changes... I see her making adjustments... she has stopped the lunches... she is going with me to lunch more... things are improving... but no one will probably ever convince her that OS friends are so risky that she should avoid them or keep them to friends that are both our friends and still have boundaries.

But from what I read in MB... she doesn't have to necessarily agree... but come to decide she cares more about her spouses feelings and discomfort and choose to care more for the marriage that about OS friends. Would I rather her 100% agree with my point of view... well of course... but I can live with that maybe she doesn't agree, but because of MB and building romantic love she decides it is not worth it for an unhappy marriage.