No. That is not an option. She won't. The best I can hope for is doing things with her and our son, or her and other family.
It's in the daily interaction where I fail. Daily interaction has dwindled to verbal or e-mail exchanges like above (or below). I understand that I am not attractive to her in anyway as long as I have committed any LB in her recent memory. So, I am focused on honing myself and eliminating my LBs.
Do you see other aspect in my communication where I am disrespectful or deferring blame, or anything else negative?
Thanks

I am not the judge of that. There is only one judge and that is your wife. So I would continue to be on your very best behavior and avoid doing anything that upsets her. Look for opportunities to fill her love bank by doing nice things for her.

What does she love to do? What is her favorite thing to do?

That is a tall order to fill.
"So you understand and accept that when she voices a complaint, you should NEVER EVER argue or dispute. Your answer should always be: "thank you for telling me. I will stop doing that." AND THEN STOP DOING IT. DO NOT DO IT AGAIN." OK. The fundamental issue is that I have some defensiveness in me that rears its ugly head.

"As it is now, you cannot afford a single love buster. You have to be at 100%, not 98% or 99.5%, but 100%." Understood.

"If you can get her to go out on dates with you, I would ask her to rate your behavior in an email after the date. She can tell you what you did wrong and what you did that she liked.

Do you think she would agree to do this?" Doubtful.

Please stay focused on me and my communication skills/tactics, my issues. Any reference to her is NOT helpful. I HAVE to eliminate my LBs, as defined by her before any progress can be made.

And I apologize for not being very competent at the quotation and other features of this forum/blogging.
Thanks

That issue needs to stop TODAY. From now on your response is: "thank you for telling me. I will never do that again."



Don't tell me what is helpful or not helpful. You only know how to wreck marriages and if you are going to lecture me about what is helpful then I won't spend my time here.

When was the lat time this happened? Can you give me a specific example of how you were defensive?

Are you going to sign up for the online program?

I'm sorry. That is not what I meant. To post our e-mail string from yesterday, I asked for her permission. She said that would be fine unless I use any of the forum posting information to be directed at her. It needs to focused on me and my issues. I meant it in that light, not as correction of you. I am keeping focused on MY communication skills, MY defensiveness, MY faults. Not validation of me, or my position as that, as you said, has failed in the past.

You're 100% right. I am in no position to correct anyone, save, perhaps my 14 yr-old.

Please understand I as not targeting you in any way other than to keep the agreement made with my wife to post our correspondence from yesterday.

Humbly, Remark

Not sure. I'll gladly pay for it. The issue is whether she'd participate or not. Is it something I'd benefit from doing alone and/or could do alone? There have programs at our church, for example, that they wouldn't allow me to participate without my spouse.
Thanks, Remark

I gotcha, and I agree. I am not going to criticize her in any way because I understand what and how this got to this terrible place. She is exhausted from your marriage and is not willing to do anything at this point. I get that. She is completely checked out.

Can you answer my question above and give me a specific example of how you acted defensively? And when was the most recent example?

What does she love doing the most?

Probably this morning. We talked that when she says something, I often reply with "No, I didn't" or something akin to that. I understand that "No, I didn't" is defensive. So, I get that.
She also thought I was getting belligerent in my e-mail exchange yesterday. But, I don't see that which is why I asked her for permission to and posted it. I was intentionally focused on being patient and polite, so was surprised by her comment to then contrary.
From her and other posts, (perhaps yours), I am understanding that I defer blame or something and I am trying to see that better, because I don't perceive it now.
Thanks, Remark

If I say "No, I didn't" or defend my position in any way, I usually come off as defensive. I can see that in "No, I didn't", yet often, I feel like I'm just sharing my perspective, different than hers, of course. So, I don't see my perspective as any more 'offensive' or 'defensive' than hers. That's why I posted our exchange from yesterday, in hopes of others helping me 'mine' the defensive or disrespectful comments I may be making and not seeing.

She's a vegetarian, into crafts, plants and animals. In fact, she's at a craft fair with a girlfriend today.

This morning. She said I was getting belligerent in the e-mail exhange we had all yesterday, so she quit. I responded that I had been very focused and intentional to be polite and patient.
That came across to her as defensive, she said.
Thanks

Stop saying "no, I didn't." How does that solve the problem? When she tells you something bothers her, just stop it. When you do something that bothers her, it is HER perspective that is at issue. I don't CARE if you don't see it. IT doesn't matter. What matters is that you STOP DOING IT.

Justifying being defensive and DISMISSIVE by saying that is your perspective only aggravates the problem. You cannot afford to EVER DISMISS her complaints again. Do you understand that? Just take "no, I didn't" right out of your vocabulary today.

She's a vegetarian, into crafts, plants and animals. In fact, she's at a craft fair with a girlfriend today.
[/quote]

What does she most like doing with you? What about trips, shopping, going out to dinner?

NO, to her you were belligerent and she told you this. Dismissing her complaint like this is what you are doing wrong. AGAIN, it is HER PERSPECTIVE that will dictate whether it is a love buster or not. Do you understand? You cannot define her love busters. ONLY SHE CAN.

Your role in that email exchange ticked me off no end. I can tell you some of the things that made me think you were being a "censored". They might not be the same things that depleted your wife's love bank (when it is already overdrawn), so my view is of limited use. The real problem is that you do not listen to her. You defend yourself over and over again, while claiming not to be doing so. You posted that exchange in the hope that it would show the insanity that you are up against. It didn't do that.

I think the email exchange was so badly managed and so damaging that I don't think you two should have any more discussions about your marriage and your "vision". I think your wife is trying to get you to say the things she wants to hear and you don't want to say them. She annoys you by doing that and you annoy her by not conceding. You have a very nice line in sneering at her point of view while maintaining a veneer of politeness and agreement. In your wife's shoes I wouldn't put up with one more minute of that.

"S: Well, for example, I think you're an [censored] to me, and you don't think you are. That's pretty incompatible.
M: Yes, I understand that you think I�m an [censored] to you and I agree that�s pretty incompatible."

You in fact stated that you are NOT an a s s to her, but cleverly, you made it sound that you were agreeing with her! This is like the "I'm sorry if you feel hurt" apology that is not an apology.

" I�ll have to learn at least respond to you and your opinions better than I have in the past."

"OK, let�s keep track of that for a while, LB�s. Please point them out as they occur, whether it�s me committing them or you."

She's DONE with you, yet under the guise of asking for guidance you point out that she LBs also. You ask her to point out her own LBs. If she does not agree to do this then she is being unreasonable and you are the good guy.

NOT, I note, "I'll stop being an a s s."

"M: OK. I don�t think it is a spouses� job to �tell the other what to do�, anyway. That would be akin to selfish demands, I think. They can express their wishes, their LB�s, and their EN�s, and their opinions. Right? It�s all a balance. I can�t place the entire responsibility of my happiness on you, and vice versa. We can express our desires from our spouses. Yet, both spouses have a responsibility to the other to please them as best as possible. I know I�ve failed at that for 20 years. Does that make sense?"

NOT: I'll stop doing anything that makes you unhappy". And as for that "don't rely on me to make you happy"...I don't know where to start. You're telling her to learn to be happy in and by herself. Well, if she is going to have to do that she might as well not be married. You go on to say that you don't intend to bust a gut making her happy. You'll do what you feel is reasonable - which is what you've been doing for 20 years.

Your wife explains very well how she cannot bear to hear one more time "I simply misunderstood", so I won't spend time on that part of the conversation. Your wife is saying that you have a trigger response and then you brush off your response. The way you do that is to say to her "calm down dear. Keep your hair on. It was a simple misunderstanding. Don't blow everything out of proportion!" and other such belittling responses.

I'd have a hard time not packing your stuff the next time you said that sort of thing.

Your refusal to leave is annoying her. If you would leave as asked, without telling her what a beast she is being for making you do it, and if during the separation you try and date her and win her back, you could rebuild your marriage. Dr Harley guides people through this path when living together has become too destructive.

By telling her it is "foolish" to pay rent and go into debt you are condescending, you are implying that she needs educating about the fact that moving out will be costly (as if she does not know. Has she not run a household for the past 20 years? How do you think she did that if she lacks basic sense?) and you are making it clear that SHE is running your finances into the ground, not you.

Way to win her back, remark.

"M: Arguably, selfish might be to leave and start over and not have to deal with the baggage of past hurts here. I�m choosing what I believe to be the higher ground, weather this conflict and repair things, hopefully make things right with you. I�m choosing to make the wisest decisions I know to make.
S: Are you saying that the idea of leaving and starting over and all that entails is genuinely an appealing thought for you?
M: I�m saying it might be the selfish thing to do. It�s harder to negotiate and repair our problems than to leave and start over. You�ve mentioned similar dreams about wanting to leave, �planning your exit/escape, etc.� This email stuff is incredibly difficult compared to what I envision spouses are supposed to do. If the �idea of leaving and starting over and all that entails is genuinely was appealing to me, don�t you think I would have jumped at the idea of an LS? Let me make it clear, I am sitting here on a Friday night e-mailing my estranged wife sitting 9 feet away from me because it is my desire and conviction to work through this difficult period, repair our relationship and find new heights for my marriage with you no matter how tough it is for me."

You manage to imply that you'd really like to run away, and at the same time to point out how sensible and grown up you're being by staying - unlike your wife, who would like to separate and bring you to financial ruin.

Remark, how about going to stay at low cost with that family that you have inflicted on your wife for the past 20 years? How about making the separation happen and not making your wife feel bad about it?

"M: So, in your opinion, if I weren�t selfish, I�d run out and get a $280K loan? Is that why you�re calling me selfish? Are there other reasons?"

Sarcasm. Belittling.

"M: Well, I�ve shelved so many desires in recent years, that I don�t feel so selfish. Do I need to yield to everything you want for you to perceive me as less selfish? I�ll continue to shelve desires to do what is right."

You are so noble. If your marriage has turned into such a sacrifice, remind me again why you want to stay in it. And while you're at it, tell me how this is wooing your wife.

"M: Have I been an [censored] today? No, I don�t know what else."

I see what your wife means - that if you refuse to accept what she says about your behaviour because you don't see it, you won't stop doing it. Why would any woman who put up with this for years (while vocalising her unhappiness) for her son, but whose son is nearly grown, sign up for one minute more of this?

The following annoyed me so much I nearly burst into flames:

"I can only explain it as selfishness and seeing myself as normal when unhealthily comparing us to other folks. I don�t witness that only single people get to play softball, or golf or go to church or bible study. So, seeing and knowing that blinded me and lent in to my neglect of your wishes. I�m more of a believer and student of Harley now."

Translation: "You unreasonable cow. I've given it up, and I'll keep giving it up, but I'll never let you forget that you are an unreasonable cow because you won't allow me to do what millions of other wives do, which is allow their men to do what makes them happy."

That certainly shows how much you have understood Harley!

As I said, Remark, stop having these talks. You only need to say one more insulting, belittling thing to find your stuff packed and on the doorstep.

Contact the Harley coaches and ask them to help you save your marriage.

Despite what I said above about separation, I recommend that you do nothing until you speak with Dr Harley. I think you should send an email asking to be on the radio show, and see if you can get your wife to agree to be on it also. Get Dr Harley's tailored, expert advice before you do anything.

SugarCane beat me to the line-by-line analysis. You repeatedly lectured your wife, called her selfish, did not anwser her questions about how this time was really different, were sarcastic, and you tried to guilt her for expecting you to give up Independent Behavior. I also find it interesting that you think that bacause you are unhappy, you must not be being selfish. You are probably unhappy because you are not getting your way (and you are a selfish person). Inflicting a bad mood on your spouse is one method of controlling your spouse.

No WONDER your wife doesn't like you! You were very rude. If this was you being civil, I would hate to see anything else.

I think if you want to win your wife back, you are going to have to stop telling her what you will do and just do it. You also need a specific plan. "Thank you for the feedback" should be your mantra. Then actually address your behaviors. Stop eliciting feedback for a while because that seems to be annoying her. Write down all of her complaints that you can think of and begin to address them systematically.

And get Dr. Harley to coach you! You need the help seeing your faults.

I think you'd do alot of good having a coach help you. And plus you get direct contact from Dr. Harley.

Have you asked your DW about it?

Brilliant job, Sugarcane!!

Sugarcane,
I am sick to my stomach, which means I feel so ashamed of something I apparently do and yet I don't see and don't understand.
That's the kind of feedback I was looking for when I posted our conversation of yesterday. But, I had no idea I come across that belittling and condescending. I feel horrible that you would perceive that like she does.
I keep reading and re-reading your post.
Yes, we're planning on being on Tuesday's show with Dr Harley
Humbly, Remark