I have some questions about independent behavior and POJA. Here is the situation. I'll list questions throughout:

She wanted to redo the pantry, remove all old shelving, fix up walls, paint, put in new shelving. I was on board and was ok with this.

She decided to take 2 days off work to do it.

1) She didn't ask me about taking the days of she just did it. Honestly it didn't bother me, but is this something that MB'ers would discuss before doing?

We discussed paint options as we have always agreed we never wanted to do something in the house where they other didn't like it. So we had a paint color option set.

She went to the paint place and they could not create the paint color. Don't know exact details why, but it doesn't matter. Anyway... she picked another color and painted.

I find out later she picked a different color and painted, but I would have preferred that she call me and we could talk about paint. I felt like she took me out of the picture and acted independently. Was the paint a bad color? No it was ok? All I said is I would prefer if she would have called me as I no longer had a say in the color of the paint. I thought the subject was over, but that night she says...

It bothered her that I wanted her to check with me on the paint. She felt that I should trust her to make the right choice. We had already agree'd on something, but they couldn't do it so instead of stopping everything she felt I should trust her to know what I like and make this decision. It was time sensitive and she had taken time off from work and she was under the gun to get everything done. She then said I need you to trust me and it needs to be ok when I have to do this sort of thing.

My response... I told her that I follow her thinking on this and understand she probably has a good idea of the colors I like or don't like, but to me this isn't a matter of trust, but a matter of being considered in decisions that effect us. I told her that I definitely did not agree with her view on this. I asked her would a phone call been out of the question... I said for example you could have called to say what we wanted was not available and gave some suggestions or ideas over the phone. I could have looked up colors online or to be honest I would have probably just said pick up something in the color range you know we have talked about in the past. I told her I was not disagreeable about the color she chose as it turned out ok and that I was not "mad or angry" or any other LB thing at her. I just want her to consider me and if something we agreed on had to change that we just touch base.

2) So MB'ers did I handle this wrong. Is this something I should not said anything about?

For example... I don't expect calls from my wife about clothes she is buying the kids if she is shopping without me. Meaning we both know we want modest clothes and what that means to us as we have discussed it.

When she takes them shopping or I do I don't expect either of us to call about colors or little details... I don't want either of us to micromanage each other. We already have an agreement. And we don't need to call each other.

BUT for me... if my daughter wanted something that was borderline and I was ok with it... I would discuss it with my wife first and we could always come back and get it. My wife (as done in the past) would just make the decision and tell me I figured I could take it back if you didn't like it or think it was appropriate. This is a real example of what has happened.

3) So in this clothing example what should be done based on MB? The way I handle it or the way my wife has handled it in the past?

Last example... my wife has said she wants to paint all the bathrooms (we have 5) the exact same color. I would like to have some of them painted a little differently. Is this a huge deal to me? No, but it is a difference of opinion. Now based on MB you don't do anything. You don't paint. BUT if her opinion is wanting them all same and mine is I want some of them different. How would you ever get an enthusiastic agreement???

I believe I could easily say it really doesn't matter that much to me... but that isn't the same as enthusiastic is it? And if not how do you POJA that... especially if all the same is what she wants. In my mind we do a couple different with colors we both love. But that is still different than her desire.

I did ask her if I didn't not agree with all being the same color what was her thoughts. She immediately said... well we would paint them different colors. Which I would not want to do if it was her giver being willing to give in. Just trying to work through some examples.

I'll stop here.

Thanks!

I am hoping Melody or Prisca or Marcos or other long time MB's can chime in.

You need to trust that she will start taking your views into account. Would it be ok with her if you chose a color for her bedroom without consulting her? Shouldn't she "trust you" to make a good decision? The truth is that she shouldn't be trusted if she makes decisions without taking your feelings into account. She couldn't possibly know what colors you like without checking with you.

The solution to this issue is to UNDO her decision. I would completely renegotiate the paint color and start from scratch. [unless you really like the color]



In the clothing example, you have come to an agreement. You aren't real concerned and pretty much know each others tastes, so you have an agreement to allow the other to choose the clothes. That same principle applies to nothing else unless it is by mutual agreement.

My H *HAS* picked out a color we did not agree to because they didn't have it at the store. He brought home something I HATED thinking I would like it. We went back to the store and got something I liked. He couldn't take that ugly paint back either so we ended up eating it.


Keep negotiating until you find a solution that makes you both happy. It is not "my way" or "her way" it is a THIRD WAY that makes you both happy. She is not happy with your idea and you are not happy with her idea. So keep brainstorming until you find an outcome that you both love.


Its ok to say it doesn't matter much to you. For example, I am not enthusiastic about my husbands tools, because I DON'T CARE. It makes no difference to me. So, if you don't care and will be fine with her decisions, then that is fine.

And maybe we should flesh this out, because there are decisions that spouses won't be enthusiastic about because they don't care. For example, I am not enthusiastic about John Wayne movies. But do I care at all that my husband watches them in the living room while I am in the study? NO! I don't care one bit.

Maybe Marcos and Prisca can add something about the category of "I DON'T CARE!"

Dr. Harley has said that what you are looking for is "not reluctant."

As an example, I might play a game with our kids that my wife has no interest in, or read a book to them that she has no interest in. She doesn't feel "enthusiasm" for the game or the book, but she's not reluctant about me doing it. She simply doesn't care.

Dr. Harley has talked about having "general agreements" and "specific agreements." For example, some things there is no need to ask every time, because you already know that your spouse will be enthusiastic. Other things, you need to ask each specific time.

I don't usually ask my wife about me bringing home dinner because she is always enthusiastic. But I do ask her about my going out from work to eat lunch, because sometimes she enthusiastic about it and sometimes she is not.

Prisca will frequently buy something and let me know we can take it back if I am not enthusiastic, and I am enthusiastic about that approach. But if you are not, I would tell your wife "I would like to be asked."

Dr. Harley has said that when there is a third party involved asking one of you to do something, the response to give may have to be "I'll get back to you on that." That way you can go find out how your spouse feels privately, and then decline later without explanation. Otherwise you risk saying something like "I'm enthusiastic, but I'll have to check with my husband/wife," and then if your spouse is not enthusiastic they look like the bad guy to the third party. This is particularly a problem when the third party is your children! Also when it's other family members asking - you don't want to set up a situation where they resent your spouse for "always" saying no.

Thanks! I knew there was a better way to define those types of agreements.

Dangerous discussion here.

It does bother her to have to check with you. Like most of us, she would prefer to be independent. Just validate her feelings, and don't debate it with her. If it happens again, complain with a very light touch: "I'd like to be asked."

DO NOT try to educate her about why she should take your feelings into account or why you shouldn't be asked to "just trust her." She will perceive that as disrespectful. Just state your feelings and leave it at that.

Is she involved in learning the program with you? Listening to the radio show together? Does she feel like she is getting a lot out of it? If so she will eventually hear from neutral third parties like Dr. Harley on this subject, and it will give her a chance to think about her position. It is normal for people to feel bothered by a complaint, as is happening to her here. Even Dr. Harley has said he feels bothered when Joyce complains.

If this kind of thing continues to be a problem for you over time, I would definitely try to get her involved in the program somehow. This might make a very good radio show question, especially if she would go on the show with you.

See, all of that probably came across as disrespectful and lecturing and educating to her and made her feel less motivated to do anything Marriage Builders-related. It's best to keep your complaints extremely short and sweet and focused on your feelings. "I'd like to be asked." Now she knows what you like, and she feels freedom to make the marriage building choice of taking your likes into account, or the marriage damaging choice of ignoring your feelings. I am betting that that feeling that freedom is important to her.

One thing I have found is that my wife is a lot less independent-minded when she is in love with me. When she is not in love with me, it is a MAJOR bother for her to feel troubled by my preferences. But when she is in love with me she wants to be integrated.

Questions of this type get asked around here a lot. It's the source of most of the troubles people have trying to follow the program.

The answer is almost always "Keep brainstorming" (guideline 3 from FGSN) and "Keep working to better understand each other's perspective" (guideline 2 from FGSN).

This usually comes up when the assumption is that it has to be one way or the other. When you collect more information about your spouse's perspective, you are better able to come up with out of the box solutions. What you want to find out is, given your spouse's proposed solution, what is it about that solution that he or she likes? If you know that, sometimes you can come up with some additional suggestions that he or she will also like.

For example, what is it about one color for all the rooms that she likes? Is it because it makes the job simpler? Maybe you can come up with another way that makes it simple enough for her to feel enthusiastic.

Don't forget to be very familiar with the FGSN:

Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation

I agree, but I shouldn't say all that to her right? I guess I all I can say is either:

"If we agree on something and it cannot be accommodated I would like us to discuss it again so we can come to a new agreement."

I thought about tacking on the end of that... "How do you feel about that?", but she already stated she felt she didn't need to.

OR

"I would like to be asked in the future if we run into this type of situation again."

My guess is the first one is better.

If I didn't like it at all I would do that. She made mention that if I didn't like it we could change it. I prefer to avoid having to make changes by communicating so I don't have to apologize for not considering her... she tends to be more of do it and seek forgiveness later as there isn't anything "wrong" with her deciding for me. Anyway... I was fine with the color in the end.

I just want to avoid all of the taking back and wasting of time if possible. So I think my request is anytime we are not sure about agreement we should touch base with each other.

What has frustrated me in the past is my wife allowed daughter to get something she knew I might not be ok with... but she allowed daughter to get it. However I am setup to be the bad guy when mom says if Daddy isn't ok with this we will need to take it back. This happens a lot... not just clothes, but with a lot of things with kids. That will be a whole other topic.

Point is I want to avoid putting either one of us in the bad light with one of our kids. I desire decisions effecting kids to be our decisions and I do everything I can to never put mom in a situation where kids could perceive her not letting them have what they want, but daddy would allow it. I see it as needing to be OUR decision whenever we can.

Just seems difficult when there looks to be only 3 options. Her way, my way, or no way. Of course I get the no way is an alternative neither would want so we try to find an our way.

Gotcha

Sometimes my kids tell me they can't find something. I don't allow them to say this. I make them say it over again correctly: "I haven't found it, yet."

There aren't just 3 options.

Thanks for example. I agree we have a number of general agreements. I just would like to touch base when either one of us suspects the other may not like something. If based on our general agreements if she really doesn't think something would be an issue I can always let her know I don't like what it was and take it back... but if it is when she "suspects" I would not like it please touch base. I say this based on examples in the past where she said she thought I might not like it, but figured she could take it back. I would like to avoid all that by simply making a 1 minute phone call if possible.

There are plenty of things that wouldn't matter to me... and plenty of general agreements... but if she suspects it or we don't have an agreement at all then let's get an agreement. At least that is what I would prefer.

This has happened many times and is a point of frustration for me. During counseling and to my wife I have asked that this not be done and we check with one another. Counselor has encouraged her to do the same so we can make some of these types of decisions together and not put the other in a negative light. She continues to do it. Not all the time, still does it.

I have GOT to totally wipe this out. I still find I do this once in a while and don't recognize it right away.

She actually has a slight adverse reaction to hearing about MB. And I am sure it is where early on I was trying to share about it. Although counselor has stated many times the positive practical wisdom of Dr Harley she can get visibly irritated if I mention it. So I am not saying anything at the moment. I am trying to continue building love bank and when she can see the benefit based on my actions maybe she will be responsive.

And I am sure you are absolutely right about how it was perceived as I read through it again. DJ can be so stinking tricky!!!!

I was attempting to acknowledge her feelings... but maybe I should have left it to acknowledging her feelings, but simply requesting to be asked. Maybe this would have been a lot better:

"I understand my request makes you feel like I don't trust you. I understand how you see and feel this. I just would like to be asked if what we agreed on needs to change."

Or maybe I shouldn't even acknowledge her feelings?

The good thing is she was about to fall asleep when she said it to me so she literally started snoring right after my reply... so honestly I don't know what she remembers. It hasn't come up again.

I wish I could just go back now and say something like "I felt like my reply probably came across disrespectful and that was not my intention. I value her feelings, but I do want to be asked in those situations." and leave it at that.

But may be best to leave alone.

You mentioned counseling, and I'd just like to take a sidetrack to point out that most counselors don't know how to restore romantic love, don't believe romantic love lasts, don't believe romantic love can be created. They aren't trying to accomplish the same goal that Marriage Builders does.

Don't mix and match - this is almost always a bad idea!

Romantic Love: Is it a Realistic Goal for Marital Therapy?

Thanks... will revisit this.

I 100% agree. BUT... she has made it clear she wasn't going to see anyone else. We are only going together once every 2 weeks and by our selves once every 2 weeks where it was once ever week for individual and couple. It helps that it is less. I think it relaxes things a bit and allows more time to build love bank and not have what is typically not an enjoyable session. Although they are getting better as well.

I am talking to counselor as much as possible about specific MB practices and they do come up in counseling a little now. We just went through the "Honesty" section of emotional needs last week. If I had my choice I would take Dr Harley or his son in a heartbeat... but can't force wife to see the benefit.

We did have one tough day about 3 or 4 weeks ago and she (looks like out of frustration) said to give her some information about Dr Harley's coaching / counseling. Internally I wanted to jump for joy, but I sensed it was a statement made out of frustration... meaning she wasn't really "wanting" to do it. I was correct that is not what she wants to do... so I am continuing to try and build love bank and let her see the benefits of MB through my actions.

You are right... I cannot educate or teach her anything. Right now all I can do is try to lead by example and pray her heart changes and she is willing to do online seminar with coaching and possibly Harley.