Instead of trying to educate her, make the point that you can't live like this. Make it all about your feelings - you can't live with a situation where she does these things. It doesn't matter if it matches up with her own personal opinion of "boundaries" or not. It doesn't matter if she thinks you are rational or not.

These philosophical discussions with her aren't accomplishing anything. What will accomplish something is you knowing everything and then refusing to tolerate a situation where she continues to do things that are offensive to you.

Great, you took her to a counselor to lecture her instead of doing it yourself.

You can keep the problems on the front burner and eventually separate from her if she continues to live in a way that is hurtful to you. And you can monitor her so closely that you are aware of everything she is doing. And you can reveal the extent of her relationships to your children, if any, and to the extended family, and let them all know how much it hurts you.

You need to spend less time talking to her and us about what she believes or what you wish she would believe, and more time DOING something about it.

You need more ACTION and less TALKING.

However days like this where she decides she is going to cancel lunch with me, because of my earlier request about interaction with coach and the discomfort felt since we were not in agreement. And also she bringing up touching other men and not having issue with it and me not feeling comfortable with it. Anyway... today's like today it is very discouraging.

I am FAR from perfect and I am sure somehow I have responded in a way that makes her uncomfortable. Markos gave me a "lecture alert" so I know at least one thing came out wrong.

yes... it is her right to refuse lunch... just disappointing and hurts. I am sure she wants to avoid possible further conversation... and I get that. Our past we could easily be pulled back into it and get no where. So maybe it is best.

Don't say you can't get access to it.

Say that you haven't figured out how to get access to it, and keep trying to gain access.

In the end, if I had a phone or other communications that my wife couldn't gain access to, I know that she would separate from me over this. And ultimately, vice versa.

I would see a doctor and get antidepressants prescribed to help even out your emotions. This is going to take awhile and you are going to need to be able to execute a plan, so you will need to be able to stay rational and non-emotional.

We rarely do talk about it now a days.

I think I am taking action... but I believe one of the largest issues is UA time is still only 5 to 10 hours a week (if we get one date night). If she is unwilling to work with me to have more UA time then all I can do is take what she will give.

So let's look at today... I am obviously upset she has decided to cancel our lunch. She is obviously upset. So it will obviously be awkward the next time we connect.

I am just struggling today specifically... probably because of the conflict... but it sure would be much easier with 2 on board for MB principles.

I may have to do this.

Can you start including herself in her life for an additional 10-20 hours per week? Just go to whatever she is going to. It wouldn't be UA time, but it would be a start, and would also start to help building an integrated lifestyle where she can't carry on an affair without your knowledge.


This is where antidepressants can really help you.

There is no reason for it to be awkward the next time you talk with her - you feel emotional, but you need to keep that under control and continue to be a positive conversation partner for her.


You realize almost none of us on this forum have ever had a situation where both husband and wife were on board, right?

Don't dawdle on it like I did. You can do a lot of damage to your marriage in the interim.

I meant to say can you start including yourself in her life for an additional 10-20 hours per week.

I include myself in everything I can. Our daughter is in swim team and she has practice 3 times a week. Since we have 2 boys I am usually requested to stay home with them as she doesn't want them out late since by the time they get home it is after 8:00PM. OR if they have soccer I have to take them elsewhere. We sometimes alternate me taking daughter and she taking boys.

In all honest I would like to pull them from sports so we have more time with family and in turn free up more time for us. But she is not ok with this.

Other option is... when no soccer we would all go together, the boys could swim in pool for fun while daughter has practice and wife and I could work out together (since we are at gym) or just hang out. Kids (5,7,9yrs). But wife again doesn't want the boys out so she rather us alternate.

Here is our life schedule in general which limits UA:

- Monday: She takes 1 child to daycare and I take other 2 to school and we both go to work. I try to get her to go to lunch or one of us has counseling. Monday night daughter has swim and we usually alternate who takes her. OR if boys are in soccer we have to split up. Later at night I have men's small group.

- Tuesday: Same morning, same lunch option, and then home for family time. After kids are all in bed it is around 8:30PM to 9:00PM. Wife usually starts fading fast at about 9:45PM so if we do get that time together it is poor UA time, but I count it if we can spend it together doing UA things. BUT sometimes kids interrupt by getting up and when the heck will laundry and dishes and cleaning take place.

- Wednesday is exact same as Monday except no men's small group.

- Thursday is exact same as Tuesday.

- Friday is exact same as Tuesday and Thursday.

- Saturday is usually some kids sport in the morning, wife going to massage therapist to work on her wrist issues and joint issues, then it is a grab back of things going on and about once every two weeks a date night running 4 to 6 hours (6 if movie involved).

- Sunday is Church, lunch as family, try to get things done at house and then daughter's swim practice which wife normally takes while I am home with boys. Wife requests not bringing the boys. When she gets home we go to couples small group where one of the couples children watch our kids for small group for free (this was done so we could attend small group).

Now throw in family visits to her parents some weekends (once every couple of months) and with my parents (once every couple of months) along with other things that come up you can see it gets quite spread out.

If my wife was someone that could stay up later without issue... like 10:30PM then I think we could get some more UA time... although in house, but it would be better than nothing. Or if we could find some free baby sitting be able to go out for a couple of hours. But she literally starts to pass out around 9:45PM most nights. We have to start date night early so we get home by 10:00PM at the latest or she is shot.

So I am injecting myself everywhere she allows. Obviously I can't make her do anything and if we disagree trying to discuss it doesn't work as I can't "educate" on POJA. I can try to throw out alternatives... but if she doesn't want all of us coming to swim practice then by me just trying to do it anyway doesn't go over to well... it would really irritate her as I would not be considering her request. Yes it sounds funny to me as all I want is her to consider my request and not take actions that are hurtful about OS relationships.

I know she loves it when we are all together as family and when me and kids are having fun... you know the good father to children... so I do that as much as I can... and though that is one of her needs that is not one of the UA emotional needs.

You are right that family commitment is not one of the four intimate emotional needs, but don't underestimate its importance. It can make some very large love bank deposits for a wife.

Have you checked on the massage therapist appointments?

Yes... I see the check payments and it is the parent of one of the youth we know very well.

It is also important to me so I make sure I do this as much as I can.

So you've put a GPS on her car and verified she actually goes there?

So you've shown up unannounced at the appointments?

I noticed you said "parent" not "mother."

No I don't have a GPS now... when I switch out her work phone to our smartphone I'll have it built in.

Parent is mother.

Not unannounced... but called a couple of times and hear the parents mother (massage therapist) talking.

Is it possible should could have done something... yes... but the likely hood based on our schedules of getting kids places and everything in general it is highly unlikely.

I don't mind showing up unannounced... but based on everything and all pieces of info I have it is highly unlikely anything happening during that time.

Well... I was going to attempt to update how the last individual counseling went, but my wife dropped a bombshell on me.

She said that her 91 year old Meemaw who lives several states away desires to live with us now.

My wife feels it is up to her to take care of Meemaw and has asked me to pray about moving her into our home.

I can't give a reply at all to my wife at moment... I am shocked.

I have no desire for this and believe it will be a detriment to our marriage where I can barely get 5 hours of UA time with my wife as it is.

And with the wife not willing to look at MB... If I say no I am not ok with becoming a caregiver and having her move in is likely not going to go over well. I don't even know how to respond at the moment. This is likely going to be difficult.

Just a quick brainstorm... My suggestion would be to ask Meemaw to contact HER son as they have a spare room in their home (if he or his wife is willing). Maybe suggest she enter an assisted living place in the city her son lives in. I am leery of suggesting move to our city as I feel my wife may feel compelled to become her caregiver since she really wants her to move in anyway. We also have NO financial way to handle this... even if I wanted to.

She does still get around, but that I believe is changing.

I feel guilty for having initial response of no in my head... I may end up looking like the uncaring person to my wife so this could go bad no matter which way it goes.