While I appreciate everyone's generous assistance with our issues, I'm feeling the need to step out of participating in this forum. I even requested that my thread be deleted as a sort of "closure," but they don't do that except in dire circumstances. Following the discussion here has been very emotionally draining for me, witnessing you give my H very specific instructions, but then him not following them and presenting as if he is. But last night's repeat of "the toilet is more important than you" episode did me in. I already thought I was done, but now my little pop-up timer has popped too.

I do have one outstanding issue if anyone cares to take it up, and I'll check back in a couple weeks in case. If you don't, that's fine too. It's more of a curiosity than anything.

The discussion I was trying to have with my H last night which he blew off to go work on the toilet was regarding his EA. For 8 years, he has been claiming "innocence." Not that he didn't actually do it, but that he didn't see it as bad "at the time." He says he didn't recognize it as an EA, but since then has learned what an EA is and now he knows how bad it was. Sort of tagging onto the idea that something doesn't qualify as a sin if you don't actually know that it's a sin when you do it. He still (yesterday) uses phrases like "in a harmless manner" and "innocent enough."

My question to him is that if that's the case, then how does he explain why he deleted his emails to hide what he was doing? In my books, that means he obviously knew it was wrong, but he still claims innocence and thereby minimizes his actions.

So then I'm back to the same issue I've experienced previously, that he doesn't make effort to change anything that he doesn't acknowledge is a problem.

Anyway, again, thanks for all of your time, energy and insight. You've all been great! I hope you have a great upcoming holiday season!!

Moderator's note: Please do not post on your husband's thread. Thank you.

We will not support that plan here. Sorry.

A divorce is an easy thing to get. If you truly are done, then go get one. Otherwise, we will continue to coach your husband in Marriage Builders.

Everyone is doing a fabulous job coaching him. He just isn't doing what you're telling him to do, regardless of what he's posting.

Would you support a Plan B? I was reading in the Newsletters forum the following related to the ongoing need for Plan B:
Ken wanted Ellen to move back to their home immediately, but I recommended that she wait until they were meeting each other�s intimate emotional needs almost effortlessly. It turned out that they were separated for about a year because while Ken wanted Ellen with him, he resisted learning the new habits that would meet her emotional needs. He agreed to do everything that was recommended while in the counseling office, but then didn�t always follow through on the assignments.

His current behavior is so very disrespectful and hurtful. My stomach is in knots. I'm REALLY struggling with this while he's supposedly "all in" on the Harley program. Would you support Plan B, or do you have another suggestion?

I most certainly would support a Plan B. If you are done, then be done and go to Plan B. It is much better for you and everyone else involved than the current plan you have to just hold it together for a few more years.

I will also support your husband if he decides he wants to man up and try to win you back.

Stepping out? As in you're telling us you plan to have an affair? I really hope I'm not reading that correctly.

I will also support a Plan B, but not "living together and holding it together".

Are you going to go to Plan B?

LOL!!! Oh, God, NO! In fact, my H and I were just discussing the ludicrous nature of Prisca's suggestion to start snooping for an affair (to which I immediately reminded my H of my pins/passwords, which haven't changed in years, btw, and will go to bed before him so he has complete access to my electronics. And I work with a friend of his so he can contact him to check up on my work whereabouts. Meanwhile, I'm going to try not to be insulted by the insinuation, only because I know it's really not uncommon.) Ludicrous because I can't even imagine ever wanting to get in another relationship with a another guy. I can totally relate to my grandmothers and my aunt that never even dated after their H's died. Of course, I'm sure that's cheater's script.

Ok good to know. Do you see why I took it that way? We have seen many posters over the years post that they are going out to have a revenge affair. Matter of fact, a BS is very vulnerable for an affair after they find out about their WS's affair. So we strongly recommend the BS to secure their boundaries.

If you aren't doing anything wrong then it's a good sign to tell your H to "snoop all you want". Both spouses should have a completely transparent lifestyle.

Why is it ludicrous?
If you're not doing anything wrong, then it's not ludicrous for him to check. You should welcome it.
You getting your feathers ruffled over the suggestion is merely another red flag.

That he deleted emails and hid contact with this woman...yes he knows what he was doing was wrong. I don't know if that necessarily re-enforces what you said about making effort to change anything though. Did he continue to have inappropriate contact, EAs and loose boundaries with other women after that EA? These are two different issues IMO.

I would support Plan B but I also have another suggestion. If you are asking or expecting him to stay up all hours of the night having conversations, I would stop that. Being tired and drained is not a good time to have conversations. Cut them off at a reasonable hour and get some rest.

Yes, I understand why you went there. Sorry for the confusion.

Sorry, but it's ludicrous because I already and always have followed Harley's approach to radical honesty and transparency. I don't care one way or the other if my H snoops, I have nothing to hide. Why don't you ask him if he's following the policy? If he says he is, come back here and I'll tell you how he isn't. If he's honest with you that he isn't, then I won't need to bother.

Meanwhile, I'm just not interested in defending myself against the "guilty until proven innocent" mob mentality that has consumed my H's thread. And you can pin red flags all over me like a Christmas tree, if you'd like.

But, as the previously BS, and the target of my H's admitted transgressions and neglect, I must say I'm not feeling a lot of love here.

Yes, at least he did a similar thing with his family members. Same scenario in regards to having inappropriate email conversations with them about our relationship and then deleting them to hide them from me. Also, his intense defensiveness of his coed softball teams in spite of my previous complaints of it being inappropriate. Beyond that, I don't know, I stopped looking or caring. In every scenario, he defended that he wasn't doing anything wrong, in spite of the fact that he hid what he was doing. It just wasn't worth the battle to me.

Not a problem. We rarely talk at all anymore, that one just seemed to snowball, probably because of the discussion of Plan B.

Good, I am glad to hear that.


Good, because there's no reason to debate it. Just let him check up on anything he likes, and vice versa.


Extraordinary precautions and transparency are for everyone in marriage, not just formerly wayward spouses.

Then there isn't a problem. Don't discourage him from snooping by calling it ludicrous -- encourage his snooping with open arms.

It's not the snooping that I was referring to. It's the suggestion that I'm having an EA now that I think is ludicrous. Even suggesting who my EA partner might be? Just because I'm fed up? We've been studying Harley for 20 years (HNHN weekend seminar 20yrs ago, followed by 12-week group book study of HNHN, followed by a 12-week group book study of LB, a weekend retreat, After the Affair, HWSW, 5 Steps to Romantic Love last year, MBRadio every day with multiple questions posed and addressed, and some others I'm sure I can't remember off the top of my head.) Even Dr. Harley has a time limit on when it's evident that the partner isn't going to get on board with the program, and I'm sure it's less than 20yrs. But my reaching that point after 20 yrs means I'm having an EA?

Today, he asked where is the line between what he needs to get POJA on and what he doesn't. Does this sound like a reasonable question for him to be asking in the context of someone with his exposure to the program, someone who claims to be "all in?" I agree that he's making changes, slowly, but at the rate he's making them, we will simply not live long enough for him to succeed.

I do have one question about this post you made on my H's thread. What could possibly be the value to Marcos in finding out 8mos into the program that you were having an EA? Is it, "Wow, I guess she really meant it when she said she was unhappy." Or, "Great, now I get to redirect some of the pressure on me and focus on the splinter in her eye instead!" Clearly, in 8 mos, he had not addressed your complaints/needs, and it didn't change his responsibility to do so in any way if he still wanted to save the M. With his obvious negligence over the previous 8mos, it seems he would have been much better served to invest his energy in focusing on the plank in his own eye rather that searching for splinters in yours. Perhaps then he would have been successful and the EA never would have happened.

It would seem that if your concern was my potential for having an EA, you would have instead directed your EA suggestions to me, in regards to securing my boundaries and such, like Brainhurts did. I could have answered your questions about my transparency (and my H's lack thereof.) Instead, you went directly to my H and told him to start snooping, claiming red flags, suggesting a possible A partner, countering his dismissal of an EA. In light of the fact that I am not having an EA, your suggestion will simply distract him from addressing the problems that are creating the vulnerability, to which he seems to be having a very difficult time even without the distraction.

The value in him finding out was so he could STOP THE AFFAIR.


No, clearly in 8 months, Prisca had not practiced appropriate boundaries with men. All the need meeting in the world will stop someone from having an affair if they have pisspoor boundaries. If a person is having an affair, nothing can be fixed until the affair is eliminated.


Were these courses put on by Dr Harley? I am not aware that Dr. Harley held or endorsed any of these courses. I went through his course in 2007 and it was called "Marriage Builders Weekend Seminar." We flew to Florida and attended a weekend seminar. Afterwards, we were assigned a coach who walked us through the program over the next 2 years. We have a fantastic marriage ver since.


The radio show, the books, some non-credentialed MB offshoots are not likely to save your marriage. It sounds like you have done just about every thing EXCEPT enroll in the one program that could probably make a huge difference.

Even so, I don't know why you are even posting here and wasting our time since you say you are "done." If you are done, then be DONE. Why would anyone help someone who doesn't want to be helped? That is a waste of the valuable time of volunteers. Do you think Prisca has time to help someone who doesn't WANT to be helped? She has 7 children and she home schools them.

That's just it. I don't have pisspoor boundaries, my H does.

Yes, the HNHN seminar was put on by Dr. Harley, and the after-program book study was facilitated by the church sponsors. The weekend seminar was also the Marriage Builders Weekend, for which we also had to go out of town for. I'm not aware of them having the coaching program back then (it was the mid/late 90's and the internet was in its infancy).

My H is in contact with Dr. Harley and has asked him several times if he could enroll in the coaching, and Dr. Harley has instructed him not to. I don't know why.

Honestly, that's a very good question. My H wanted me to participate, but I'm not allowed to post on his thread so I had a separate one. It was a last-ditch effort to save my M and I didn't think people would be able to help us when my H is presenting "selective" information. I won't say he's outright lying, but he seems much more interested in putting up a good front than getting real help. It's not that I don't want help, it's that I don't have difficulty applying the program (my H would confirm this.)

I don't want to waste anyone's time. I guess I just keep getting sucked back in because the alternative is the end of my M and a detrimental impact to my son. I do appreciate your candor, though. Time to put my big-girl pants on, I guess.