My H and I were on the MB Radio show today. I don't want to thread-jack my H's thread on the forum here, but I have a couple questions.

One of the problems I've had in my M in the past is that nothing I say has credibility or value to my husband. POJA doesn't happen because whenever we try to negotiate, my H dismisses my position, ignores a compromise, and re-emphasizes his own, and so we end up in a stalemate. In my H's thread, he made reference to a negotiation we had years ago regarding his son (my step) setting the dinner table and the consequences if he didn't. We negotiated for months, unsuccessfully, until finally I just starting setting the table myself to put an end to the discussion. Some time later, my H discussed the issue with our pastor, and the pastor agreed with my position. Suddenly, my H was all in agreement. (Another poster explained why he was wrong to take the pastor's opinion over mine.)

Well, now after talking with Dr. Harley, I feel like I'm in the same boat again. Except rather than it being a 6-month battle finally settled by our pastor, now it's a 20-year battle finally settled by Dr. Harley. I'm still in the same predicament, just with a different "third party."

On the program, one of the primary topics discussed was my H's lack of attention when I try to discuss a problem with him, or even pleasantries like when we would go out to dinner. He sees nothing wrong with lack of eye contact, picking up and reading a piece of mail, responding to a text, even studying the bottom of his shoe. I've expressed repeatedly that I find this behavior disrespectful and ask for his full attention, but he defends it saying there's nothing wrong with it and continues doing it, sometimes getting angry at me for complaining about it. He still held this same position even after reading Dr. Harley's books and claiming to be "all-in."

Today on the program, Dr. Harley discussed it with my H and personally explained that it was wrong. He gave my H the instruction to practice maintaining eye contact during any discussion with me and report to him via email everyday for a week. He described it as "changing a habit" and compared it to training oneself to put their socks in the hamper. But in my mind, there's a big difference between developing a habit for something you want to do, vs. developing a habit for something you disagree with fundamentally. I equate it to what Dr. Harley refers to as "serial cheaters." Regardless of going through the motions of M, eventually they will be unfaithful because they don't buy in to the idea of being monogamous.


So I have two questions/concerns:
1. What have I gained in the relationship if my H is doing this because Dr. Harley requested it rather than because it's important to me? I feel like if there are any love units deposited because he changes his behavior, it's for Dr. Harley, not for my H.
2. Is it reasonable to believe that my H has instantly changed his 20-year belief system just because Dr. Harley talked to him? Why wouldn't I believe that my H will eventually revert back to his core belief when Dr. Harley stops monitoring him (just like he has done with other counselors)?

JDD, his behavior on dates is not a "belief system;" it is just bad date behavior. And bad habits surely can be changed with practice and commitment. It is just like a smoker quitting smoking. At first, it is very hard to quit, because smoking is such a deep, integral part of the smoker, but through practice and commitment, that all changes.

Whether or not your husband wants to change his behavior will be backed up by his actions. We will see if he follows through.

An important guiding principle in this program is "feelings follow actions." Once he breaks that bad habit, he will enjoy the fruits of his new behavior which will reinforce his changes.

He may do this. Just like a reformed smoker might start smoking again. There are no guarantees. That doesn't mean you don't try to break bad habits. If he reverts back to bad behavior, Dr Harley would tell you to separate from him.

I have to say that, listening to the program, I was surprised at how dense your husband seemed. He needs to back up his willingness to follow MB with real effort and change, and he is certain to make many more mistakes along the way.

If I were in your situation, I would seriously consider signing up for MB coaching. You are going to need backup and support.

I agree. Signing up gets you access to Dr Harley and a coach for a YEAR. You can even extend that if necessary. You might need some Dr Harley "stick" to make this work!

Let me add that we will be very happy to help reinforce that. I agree with mrEureka's assessment, and I am hopeful that if Remark will stay engaged here that we will be able to help him over time.

In particular, I would strongly encourage you to post your complaints about Remark here. We will try to help him understand your point of view.

If your husband does not adopt and retain the marriage building behaviors recommended here, for life, we would all support you in permanently separating from him.

By the way, you might benefit from reading my wife's thread "what to do with an angry husband." My wife eventually decided from what she read here that she was going to insist that if I had angry outbursts I would not live with her. I spent a few weeks in a Super 8 motel until we came to an agreement about me coming back - and let me tell you that that changed me in a hurry! We would encourage you to hold your husband to a very high standard.

If we can get your husband to faithfully follow this program, your feelings toward him will change. Right now, very understandably, you are extremely skeptical toward him. Rightfully so. As Dr. Harley said, you can't let your guard down and feel close to him, because given his track record at any moment he might suddenly let you have it. It's going to take a brand new track record on his part to change any of that.

Marriage Builders recommends measurable behaviors. By "measurable," I mean that you can look at him and see if he is following the behavior or not.

For example, Marriage Builders recommends that you give your husband a worksheet once a week listing instances when you felt he was disrespectful toward you. If he refuses to accept the worksheet, we would all recommend you separate from him. If he debates you about what is on the worksheet, we would all recommend you separate from him. His only course of action is to accept that information, get help from us or Dr. Harley or someone to understand it if he doesn't understand how he was disrespectful, and create and follow a plan to avoid those disrespectful behaviors in the future.

I heard on the show that you and your husband discussed my comments to him about getting professional help to stop saying "I'm trying." That phrase is disrespectful to you, and he needs to stop saying it. Dr. Harley described the process of habit formation, and your husband needs to get very familiar with it very quick so he can eliminate the habit of saying this phrase. So one thing we can measure is his willingness to let you and us hold him accountable for saying it. Let's lay that particular disrespectful behavior out in the open and hear from you or him each time he says it. Hopefully he will discover he can stop saying it really, really quickly. Then we can start tackling the next disrespectful behavior, and the next, and the next.

Another measurable behavior is the policy of joint agreement. If your husband accepts it when you are not enthusiastic about something he wants to do, then we can see that he is (at the moment) being sincere. But if he tries to debate you or browbeat you into reluctant agreement, you and we can see he is not following the program, and again, we would all support you in separating from him if he is not going to follow these principles.

I don't think someone argues and defends the legitimacy of a bad habit, do they? I'm relating Dr. Harley's sock example, and imagining Joyce telling him that it really bothers her when he leaves his socks on the floor and could he please put them in the hamper. If, in response, Dr. Harley told Joyce that he liked throwing them on the floor, that he should be allowed to relax in his own bedroom, that she was just being a perfectionist and he didn't appreciate her criticizing him, and continued to throw his socks on the floor, would it still be just a bad habit? I can't help but think that it's more.

Dr. Harley said he would "talk about that later." I'm not sure when that is.

What you described is how MOST people behave when they arrive here. For example, I told Dr Harley in 2007 that my husband got whipped up over "micky mouse" things. I meant it with all my heart and soul!! And when he objected to my behavior I accused him of being "controlling!" I wanted Dr Harley to tell him to stop being so petty. So in many ways, your husband is much farther along than me. At least, he will act like he is going to go along.

And yes, most of us defended our right to our bad habits when we arrived. Some of us felt didn't feel they were they bad at all and some [like me] felt quite entitled!! I will post my post to Dr Harley from 2007 when my H and I had a fight over lettuce in the grocery store.

What?? What?? You want me to stop?? You are trying to control me!!!

Girlfriend, your husband is a BOY SCOUT. We have seen 10x worse change their bad habits.

Marcos, my husband already spent a couple months in an unfurnished apartment a few years back, while he was attending one-on-one counseling twice a week. The break from him 24/7 gave me a second wind, plus I was trying to keep things stable for our son, so I agreed to him moving back in. Obviously things didn't change. My only point is I don't think that would have much effect on him again, especially if we did a legal separation first. I think then we'd both just throw in the towel permanently.

I just wanted to clarify one thing from the radio broadcast. My H definitely has a problem with impulse control, and I do not. His initial response of "no" saddens me greatly, because he was diagnosed with a lack of healthy boundaries almost 15 years ago, and it has been brought up and discussed frequently as an ongoing problem. For him to still be denying it after all this time is pretty disheartening for me. The second part of his answer where he "shared" the impulse problem with me just makes me shake my head. I don't have a problem planning my vacation ahead, I have a hard time planning one that includes him, but usually manage to do something just for the sake of our son.

I'm wondering if you can help me get a handle on how this is supposed to work from here. My H has an assignment to give me eye contact whenever I want his attention. That would be great under different circumstances, but at this point, I don't want his attention while he still has all his other "bad habits." It's difficult to value him looking me in the eye while he's flipping me off, for example. Dr. Harley said something like this would take 90 days (or maybe it was 60) to accomplish making it a habit. Does that still hold true if he really doesn't have any opportunity to practice it with me? I'm really not interested in being his test dummy. And do we wait until he has this one down before we go on to the next? At that rate, we'll be well past the 4-year mark before he even touches on the stack of issues.

We see that pretty commonly - when we can talk someone into intentionally changing their habits, the problems can be solved.

I'm a little concerned we did not hear from Remark today.

Thanks for everyone's responses. Mel, I give you and your H kudos for getting through your issues! I could certainly see that spiraling out of control.

I'm still looking for an answer to this post, if anyone has any thoughts.

He will be working on ALL of his love busters at once, not just one at a time.

I know it hasn't even been a week, but I feel like I'm hanging out there rather precariously. I like plans and I seem to be missing it if there is one. You indicated that my H is supposed to be working on ALL of his LB's, but does HE know that? I know he's aware that he's supposed to be making eye contact and sending a daily email to Dr. Harley, but the seven things on his "list" certainly don't encompass everything. And because of the state of our relationship, some of it is difficult to measure. For example, eye contact becomes pretty irrelevant when I purposely don't look at him (too painful dealing with all his other LB's.) And does it matter that he hasn't sent an email to Dr. Harley since Wednesday? I'm sure his excuse is that he was visiting family out of town, but does that violate #3 on this list (stop making excuses)?

After years of dysfunction, I've developed a fair number of coping mechanisms that I'm not prepared to just throw out because now he's doing "the plan," especially since he's claimed that for some time. For example, we don't POJA successfully, so with his family, I just agree with whatever he wants because I know it's pointless to disagree or share a differing opinion, and then I just make the best out of it. So he would probably say the weekend was great because he got what he wanted and I wasn't complaining, but it certainly doesn't reflect POJA. We also had an altercation on the way home in which he almost let my dog get hit by a car, but the brief discussion we had about it looked very much like our typical discussions. I'm not expecting him to change overnight, but should I? How do YOU determine whether he's making progress or doing what he's supposed to?

Here is just my 2 cents....perhaps just concentrate on the things that irritate you the most, and forego the others for the time being. For instance, if he can learn to give you eye contact and really listen during normal conversation, wouldn't that be a big improvement? Trying to make him change so many things at once may be too overwhelming. Try to relax on the other less important irritants. He may get better within a month, but may backslide from time to time. You'll need to see a big effort on his part. It's the only way you'll know if this can work.

It sure does. I'm not seeing any effort on his part, and I would take a look at Dr. Harley's article "when to call it quits."

When To Call it Quits, Part 1
When To Call it Quits, Part 2

STOP doing that. And if he won't let you stop doing that, leave him. But stop just agreeing with whatever he wants. You are not doing yourself, your marriage, or even your husband any favors by doing that.

You might want to fill out this form and give it to your husband. It sounds to me like there are a large number of problems that you would rate "serious enough to threaten our marriage unless resolved." He needs to be working on all of those.

Marital Problem Analysis

He needs to relisten to his call with Dr. Harley, because there was a lot more said there than just giving you undivided attention, although that is majorly important. As I pointed out to him, his disrespectful judgments and his independent behavior are major problems that are going to drive you away. Would you agree with what I said to him about those?

He knows I'm doing it, and he knows why. My response whenever he asks is, "Whatever you want." He knows it doesn't fall under POJA but he keeps doing it anyway because it's what he wants. For me, it's just a peaceful way to get through the next four years. It's not worth the conflict to me. And I don't submit to the things I really don't want to do (ie. sex.) Besides, the occasions are pretty rare, and the rest of our daily lives are pretty independent.

I think he'd probably tell you he is working on them. At least that what he always tells me. Our current relationship is the result of years of his working on it. That's why I was asking how you determine if he's making progress.

I agree with most everything that was posted to him. Was there something of yours in particular you're asking about?

Conflict aversion is self destructive. You're hurting yourself more than you are hurting him because you're not getting what you want and you're preventing him from even knowing how to meet your needs in those circumstances. It's a lose-lose. You can call it peaceful if you want but it's actually passive aggression and it's your problem, not your husband's.

I understand that you don't want to be vulnerable to him yet, and that's fair, but at least be honest with him. Otherwise he doesn't have the tools necessary to make you happy. Also lying is never the solution to anything.

Ironically, I'm not the one that's conflict averse, he is, and he will readily admit it. I'm just not bothering because it's a wasted effort on my part. Expressing my opinion just results in his defensiveness, criticism, sarcasm, and then subsequently ignoring it. If he ever gets back on, you can ask him his perspective on this. We've been through it so often, I'm sure my description is pretty accurate. Even the 5-minute discussion (3 minutes of dead-silence on his part while I waited for him to respond) on the trip about his carelessness with the dog mirrored this exactly. Besides, I have point-blank told him that it isn't POJA, that I'm only agreeing to it because he ignores my position anyway, that it's only for the next 4 years for our son's sake, so I can't see how it's lying. (Did you read the conversation posted on his thread? It gives a pretty good demonstration of how things go with us.)

Radio Clip of your show

"Working on it" is code for "doing nothing."

Your marriage has no hope of recovering as long as you continue to do this. BOTH of you need to stop your marriage destructive behavior.

Your husband was trying to decide whether Disrespectful Judgments or Independent Behavior were the most important problem. I told him that BOTH of these problems were going to destroy your marriage if he didn't solve them, and he needed to focus on eliminating BOTH, ASAP, rather than worrying about which one was higher priority.

Would you agree with me on that?

Did you look at the Marital Problem Analysis questionnaire?

Yes, I agree, but then I already believe our M is hopeless. I've proven I can apply the Harley principles and have reengaged and done so numerous times in the past. At this point, however, I won't be adjusting any of my behavior until my H proves that he's capable of following the Harley program (he never has before.)

I would definitely agree with you. That's what I was trying to explain earlier, that the focus on eye-contact is rather irrelevant when he's still exhibiting all his other LB's, which make me not even want eye-contact. I wish I had presented something different on the radio program with Dr. Harley. I was somewhat unprepared because my H wanted to do the call, so I thought I was just there to confirm/deny/clarify whatever my H wanted to present. Instead, Dr. Harley put me on the spot. I tried to come up with an example of something simple, not realizing it was going to play out this way. I'm not finding any real value in it, especially since he's presenting like he's doing such a great job, yet I don't see it that way.

I have looked at the Marital Problems Analysis that you posted. In fact, I'm pretty sure we filled it out or some version of it before during one of our rounds of studies. Now, I'm pretty comfortable in my 4-year plan (it started out as an 8-year plan so I'm halfway there!) so it would be hard to rate them at this point. None of them are that big of a deal when I'm not trying to have a M with him.

JDD, if you don't want a marriage with your husband I recommend you truly separate vs continue with this "in-house separation"...that can also be detrimental to your boy. Your son does not have to live out a backpack visiting two houses as your stepchildren did.

Sadly, your H is a lot like my exWH.

What do you mean he was diagnosed with a lack of health boundaries?

A dear and extremely intelligent friend of ours was trying to help us years ago. He attributed my husband's poor choices to his having poor boundaries. It's related to what Dr. Harley refers to as problems with being impulsive. He's read books on boundaries, has supposedly sought counseling, got tested for ADD, etc. Apparently he forgot.

I've been keeping up with my H's thread and have had a few thoughts about his posts and the responses. I don't care to join in his thread but thought I'd at least share some perspective here.

First, SugarCane, OMG!!!! If you were here, I would give you a huge hug and $500! Your feedback on my H's posts has done soooo much for my self-esteem! Everything you said is EXACTLY how I feel! I've so often felt like I must be crazy (supported by H telling me I am, of course) because I am so put off my his communication style. It literally is crazy-making. So you interpreting it exactly the same way I do is SOOOOO validating for me. Or at least comforting because I'm not crazy alone.

Thanks to everyone else, too, for putting your time and energy into our mess. Even if we aren't successful in saving our M, your efforts are still invaluable to me. Sometimes it's just nice to get another person's objective perspective. I'll be a better person because of it, regardless of the outcome.

So, some thoughts. Shall we start with the affair? I'd like to fill in a few holes that my H left out. The OW was not just a girlfriend, she was his high school sweetheart, the "love of his live" as he reiterated in his emails to her, with whom he had had a sexual relationship with. He apparently remembered her on her birthday (30+ years later), googled her, discovered she was recently divorced (available!!) and decided to send her a birthday card with his contact information. Note, not our home phone number where I might answer the phone or overhear their conversation, but his personal email address. After she contacted him back, he proceeded to exchange a series of emails with her reminiscing about the past, questioning why they ever broke up, and catching up on the status of family and friends, with added emphasis on how happy he was to hear from her and how much he enjoyed talking with her. Among the glowing adjectives describing his siblings and children, I was mentioned as "the woman he married" followed by "marriage is tough!." She inquired if he ever came to her city, his hometown. This went on for a couple of months before I accidentally stumbled across one of the emails that he forgot to delete, which happened to contain a string of all the prior email exchanges.

To this day, I feel like he's still describing it as if he didn't think there was anything wrong with it AT THE TIME, because he didn't recognize it as an affair. I don't care if you call it an affair, an emotional affair, or "just catching up with an old friend," why would he have been so discreet about it (not telling me, private contact info, deleting emails, etc.) if he thought he was doing nothing wrong? I feel he's still defending his innocence, still minimizing his actions, still rationalizing it, in spite of his supposed "shame" over it now. Never in eight years have I heard him admit anything like, "Yes, I knew it was wrong; yes, I knew you'd be angry/hurt if you found out; but frankly, my dear, I didn't give a damn!"

To his comment "I have been respectful and given her undivided attention," frankly I don't even know what he's talking about. We barely interact. I purposely put off doing my homework last week at home so I could keep myself occupied during the long drive and not have to interact with him. One of the few times that I did, I complained about his driving style, what he refers to as "managing the cruise control," which boils down to doing whatever lane-changing maneuvers are necessary to avoid disengaging the cruise control. He heard my complaint, then did it again within 10 minutes. This was described to you as he "annoyed" me.

To his not sending the daily emails, his explanation is a bunch of b.s. True, he didn't bring his laptop, but he DID bring his ipad and his smart phone. True, we did go to my family's on Thursday, but not until 3:00p.m., so he had all morning. Blah-blah-blah about it being a holiday for everyone. His emails would have just sat there until Dr. Harley read them whenever. He still seems completely nonchalant about this whole thing and perfectly comfortable with his excuses.

He does this because normally it does work for him, because normally it accomplishes exactly that. Normally it gets him the validation he's looking for, and then he has another person/tool/program to use to beat me over the head with to prove that he is good and I am bad. The thing is, I just can't filter his b.s. anymore. Every time he does one of these and I have to clarify the gory details of what really happened, I re-live the pain all over again. It's too hard. I just don't want to do it anymore. I just want to get on with life.

I don't really think he's looking for help, at least not help directed to him. He leaves out too much information. It's like going to the Dr. but not giving him all your symptoms or minimizing them and still expecting him to be able to correctly diagnose you. It's irrational. But I've seen what he does, just like here. He denies his faults and focuses on me. This is a guy who went to a sex therapist (because he was completely unresponsive to MY complaints and instruction and he was cut off until he did) and the only information he came home with was her advice that if I'm better at a particular household chore, then I should be responsible for it.

I realize that stepping out of the process will most likely be the final nail in the coffin. But the thought of life without him has become more appealing than life with him. It's taken me lots of years to get here, but I'm finally okay with it.

Wait a minute! Did you just call me crazy?

Thanks for filing in the details, JDD.

And yes SC...you are crazy!

I'm not sure if my prior post just got overlooked or if it was intentionally ignored. Hopefully it was just missed, as it's important. And I'll keep this brief.


To address your previous concerns and to be clear:

Going forward, regarding his family and in general, he can correctly assume that I only do things anymore that I am ENTHUSIASTIC about, and no longer do things that I'm RELUCTANT about, so the Thanksgiving trip is a non-issue.

Furthermore, I am also INCREDIBLY ENTHUSIASTIC about my H's individual activities. Already for several years, I've been enthusiastic about them, even encouraging new activities. I don't know why he's making out like they were still a problem and dropped them. In fact, I would be ENTHUSIASTIC about him picking them all up again. Ironically, I consider that to be one of the only conflicts we've ever really arrived at POJA.

I can't make it any clearer for him than that.

I know you're trying to help, but please do not send my H to me to "find out" something or to get my perspective. I'm done. He needs to leave me alone. I'm doing my best to keep this precarious arrangement as functional as can be for the next couple of years only. If he continues engaging me when I've specifically asked him not to, it will mean I'll need to file for divorce sooner rather than later. I'm already leaning towards that anyway.

Thank you for your consideration. Please pardon the intrusion.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.

While I appreciate everyone's generous assistance with our issues, I'm feeling the need to step out of participating in this forum. I even requested that my thread be deleted as a sort of "closure," but they don't do that except in dire circumstances. Following the discussion here has been very emotionally draining for me, witnessing you give my H very specific instructions, but then him not following them and presenting as if he is. But last night's repeat of "the toilet is more important than you" episode did me in. I already thought I was done, but now my little pop-up timer has popped too.

I do have one outstanding issue if anyone cares to take it up, and I'll check back in a couple weeks in case. If you don't, that's fine too. It's more of a curiosity than anything.

The discussion I was trying to have with my H last night which he blew off to go work on the toilet was regarding his EA. For 8 years, he has been claiming "innocence." Not that he didn't actually do it, but that he didn't see it as bad "at the time." He says he didn't recognize it as an EA, but since then has learned what an EA is and now he knows how bad it was. Sort of tagging onto the idea that something doesn't qualify as a sin if you don't actually know that it's a sin when you do it. He still (yesterday) uses phrases like "in a harmless manner" and "innocent enough."

My question to him is that if that's the case, then how does he explain why he deleted his emails to hide what he was doing? In my books, that means he obviously knew it was wrong, but he still claims innocence and thereby minimizes his actions.

So then I'm back to the same issue I've experienced previously, that he doesn't make effort to change anything that he doesn't acknowledge is a problem.

Anyway, again, thanks for all of your time, energy and insight. You've all been great! I hope you have a great upcoming holiday season!!

Moderator's note: Please do not post on your husband's thread. Thank you.

We will not support that plan here. Sorry.

A divorce is an easy thing to get. If you truly are done, then go get one. Otherwise, we will continue to coach your husband in Marriage Builders.

Everyone is doing a fabulous job coaching him. He just isn't doing what you're telling him to do, regardless of what he's posting.

Would you support a Plan B? I was reading in the Newsletters forum the following related to the ongoing need for Plan B:
Ken wanted Ellen to move back to their home immediately, but I recommended that she wait until they were meeting each other�s intimate emotional needs almost effortlessly. It turned out that they were separated for about a year because while Ken wanted Ellen with him, he resisted learning the new habits that would meet her emotional needs. He agreed to do everything that was recommended while in the counseling office, but then didn�t always follow through on the assignments.

His current behavior is so very disrespectful and hurtful. My stomach is in knots. I'm REALLY struggling with this while he's supposedly "all in" on the Harley program. Would you support Plan B, or do you have another suggestion?

I most certainly would support a Plan B. If you are done, then be done and go to Plan B. It is much better for you and everyone else involved than the current plan you have to just hold it together for a few more years.

I will also support your husband if he decides he wants to man up and try to win you back.

Stepping out? As in you're telling us you plan to have an affair? I really hope I'm not reading that correctly.

I will also support a Plan B, but not "living together and holding it together".

Are you going to go to Plan B?

LOL!!! Oh, God, NO! In fact, my H and I were just discussing the ludicrous nature of Prisca's suggestion to start snooping for an affair (to which I immediately reminded my H of my pins/passwords, which haven't changed in years, btw, and will go to bed before him so he has complete access to my electronics. And I work with a friend of his so he can contact him to check up on my work whereabouts. Meanwhile, I'm going to try not to be insulted by the insinuation, only because I know it's really not uncommon.) Ludicrous because I can't even imagine ever wanting to get in another relationship with a another guy. I can totally relate to my grandmothers and my aunt that never even dated after their H's died. Of course, I'm sure that's cheater's script.

Ok good to know. Do you see why I took it that way? We have seen many posters over the years post that they are going out to have a revenge affair. Matter of fact, a BS is very vulnerable for an affair after they find out about their WS's affair. So we strongly recommend the BS to secure their boundaries.

If you aren't doing anything wrong then it's a good sign to tell your H to "snoop all you want". Both spouses should have a completely transparent lifestyle.

Why is it ludicrous?
If you're not doing anything wrong, then it's not ludicrous for him to check. You should welcome it.
You getting your feathers ruffled over the suggestion is merely another red flag.

That he deleted emails and hid contact with this woman...yes he knows what he was doing was wrong. I don't know if that necessarily re-enforces what you said about making effort to change anything though. Did he continue to have inappropriate contact, EAs and loose boundaries with other women after that EA? These are two different issues IMO.

I would support Plan B but I also have another suggestion. If you are asking or expecting him to stay up all hours of the night having conversations, I would stop that. Being tired and drained is not a good time to have conversations. Cut them off at a reasonable hour and get some rest.

Yes, I understand why you went there. Sorry for the confusion.

Sorry, but it's ludicrous because I already and always have followed Harley's approach to radical honesty and transparency. I don't care one way or the other if my H snoops, I have nothing to hide. Why don't you ask him if he's following the policy? If he says he is, come back here and I'll tell you how he isn't. If he's honest with you that he isn't, then I won't need to bother.

Meanwhile, I'm just not interested in defending myself against the "guilty until proven innocent" mob mentality that has consumed my H's thread. And you can pin red flags all over me like a Christmas tree, if you'd like.

But, as the previously BS, and the target of my H's admitted transgressions and neglect, I must say I'm not feeling a lot of love here.

Yes, at least he did a similar thing with his family members. Same scenario in regards to having inappropriate email conversations with them about our relationship and then deleting them to hide them from me. Also, his intense defensiveness of his coed softball teams in spite of my previous complaints of it being inappropriate. Beyond that, I don't know, I stopped looking or caring. In every scenario, he defended that he wasn't doing anything wrong, in spite of the fact that he hid what he was doing. It just wasn't worth the battle to me.

Not a problem. We rarely talk at all anymore, that one just seemed to snowball, probably because of the discussion of Plan B.

Good, I am glad to hear that.


Good, because there's no reason to debate it. Just let him check up on anything he likes, and vice versa.


Extraordinary precautions and transparency are for everyone in marriage, not just formerly wayward spouses.

Then there isn't a problem. Don't discourage him from snooping by calling it ludicrous -- encourage his snooping with open arms.

It's not the snooping that I was referring to. It's the suggestion that I'm having an EA now that I think is ludicrous. Even suggesting who my EA partner might be? Just because I'm fed up? We've been studying Harley for 20 years (HNHN weekend seminar 20yrs ago, followed by 12-week group book study of HNHN, followed by a 12-week group book study of LB, a weekend retreat, After the Affair, HWSW, 5 Steps to Romantic Love last year, MBRadio every day with multiple questions posed and addressed, and some others I'm sure I can't remember off the top of my head.) Even Dr. Harley has a time limit on when it's evident that the partner isn't going to get on board with the program, and I'm sure it's less than 20yrs. But my reaching that point after 20 yrs means I'm having an EA?

Today, he asked where is the line between what he needs to get POJA on and what he doesn't. Does this sound like a reasonable question for him to be asking in the context of someone with his exposure to the program, someone who claims to be "all in?" I agree that he's making changes, slowly, but at the rate he's making them, we will simply not live long enough for him to succeed.

I do have one question about this post you made on my H's thread. What could possibly be the value to Marcos in finding out 8mos into the program that you were having an EA? Is it, "Wow, I guess she really meant it when she said she was unhappy." Or, "Great, now I get to redirect some of the pressure on me and focus on the splinter in her eye instead!" Clearly, in 8 mos, he had not addressed your complaints/needs, and it didn't change his responsibility to do so in any way if he still wanted to save the M. With his obvious negligence over the previous 8mos, it seems he would have been much better served to invest his energy in focusing on the plank in his own eye rather that searching for splinters in yours. Perhaps then he would have been successful and the EA never would have happened.

It would seem that if your concern was my potential for having an EA, you would have instead directed your EA suggestions to me, in regards to securing my boundaries and such, like Brainhurts did. I could have answered your questions about my transparency (and my H's lack thereof.) Instead, you went directly to my H and told him to start snooping, claiming red flags, suggesting a possible A partner, countering his dismissal of an EA. In light of the fact that I am not having an EA, your suggestion will simply distract him from addressing the problems that are creating the vulnerability, to which he seems to be having a very difficult time even without the distraction.

The value in him finding out was so he could STOP THE AFFAIR.


No, clearly in 8 months, Prisca had not practiced appropriate boundaries with men. All the need meeting in the world will stop someone from having an affair if they have pisspoor boundaries. If a person is having an affair, nothing can be fixed until the affair is eliminated.


Were these courses put on by Dr Harley? I am not aware that Dr. Harley held or endorsed any of these courses. I went through his course in 2007 and it was called "Marriage Builders Weekend Seminar." We flew to Florida and attended a weekend seminar. Afterwards, we were assigned a coach who walked us through the program over the next 2 years. We have a fantastic marriage ver since.


The radio show, the books, some non-credentialed MB offshoots are not likely to save your marriage. It sounds like you have done just about every thing EXCEPT enroll in the one program that could probably make a huge difference.

Even so, I don't know why you are even posting here and wasting our time since you say you are "done." If you are done, then be DONE. Why would anyone help someone who doesn't want to be helped? That is a waste of the valuable time of volunteers. Do you think Prisca has time to help someone who doesn't WANT to be helped? She has 7 children and she home schools them.

That's just it. I don't have pisspoor boundaries, my H does.

Yes, the HNHN seminar was put on by Dr. Harley, and the after-program book study was facilitated by the church sponsors. The weekend seminar was also the Marriage Builders Weekend, for which we also had to go out of town for. I'm not aware of them having the coaching program back then (it was the mid/late 90's and the internet was in its infancy).

My H is in contact with Dr. Harley and has asked him several times if he could enroll in the coaching, and Dr. Harley has instructed him not to. I don't know why.

Honestly, that's a very good question. My H wanted me to participate, but I'm not allowed to post on his thread so I had a separate one. It was a last-ditch effort to save my M and I didn't think people would be able to help us when my H is presenting "selective" information. I won't say he's outright lying, but he seems much more interested in putting up a good front than getting real help. It's not that I don't want help, it's that I don't have difficulty applying the program (my H would confirm this.)

I don't want to waste anyone's time. I guess I just keep getting sucked back in because the alternative is the end of my M and a detrimental impact to my son. I do appreciate your candor, though. Time to put my big-girl pants on, I guess.

Correction, the weekend seminar might have been hosted by a different program. The workbooks we have are from the first HNHN seminar, rather than from the second one as I thought.

That's the biggest bunch of bull I have ever heard.

And very wayward.

Honestly, that's a very good question. My H wanted me to participate, but I'm not allowed to post on his thread so I had a separate one. It was a last-ditch effort to save my M and I didn't think people would be able to help us when my H is presenting "selective" information. I won't say he's outright lying, but he seems much more interested in putting up a good front than getting real help. It's not that I don't want help, it's that I don't have difficulty applying the program (my H would confirm this.)

I don't want to waste anyone's time. I guess I just keep getting sucked back in because the alternative is the end of my M and a detrimental impact to my son. I do appreciate your candor, though. Time to put my big-girl pants on, I guess.

[/quote]

I hope you aren't wasting anyones time either. But saying over and over that you are "done" is not encouraging and reflects someone who truly doesn't care.
I appreciate your more honest response above.

Yet you blamed markos above for Prisca's poor boundaries. That is my point.

Who put on the HNHN seminar? Where was this?

You are entitled to you opinion. It still doesn't change the facts.

Perhaps I misinterpreted their coming to the site as Prisca being unhappy in their M, resulting from Marcos' not meeting EN's or committing LB's. I've heard Dr. Harley say there are lots of reasons (not just poor boundaries) but no excuses. I attributed one of those reasons in this case to Marcos' poor performance in the M relationship. But I correct my interpretation and apologize for my presentation.

It was hosted at EFree Church in St.Louis in 1995. We both still have the little red workbook/questionaires that we filled out during the program. If it helps to answer your concern, I can send you a snapsnot of the cover.



I'm confused now, though. Do you want me to participate or not?

But her opinion is the truth. The fault of the EA was Prica's, not Markos.

It was hosted at EFree Church in St.Louis in 1995. We both still have the little red workbook/questionaires that we filled out during the program. If it helps to answer your concern, I can send you a snapsnot of the cover.[/quote]

My point is that this was not a Harley program or a Dr Harley endorsed program. Many churches use his books and he fully supports that, but most people take his material and put their own spin on it. And many times, they are great, but they are not a substitute for Dr. Harley's programs, where he oversees the lessons and the coaching progress over the years time. I am not trying to diminish them, but you can't say you have been through his programs. You have been through a church's program who used his material.


Of course, as long as you stop saying you are "done" and won't do anything. If that is the case, though, please don't waste our valuable time.

Are you willing to go through Dr Harley's course now? I suspect the reason Dr Harley told your husband no is because you refused to do anything.

I was referring to the fact that I'm not having an EA.

I know it was not put together by our church. It was presented by an outside group that came in. I won't claim that my memory from 20 years ago is so good that I could pick Dr. Harley out of a line-up. However, I thought it was a great program/presentation and I was personally able to apply it quite well as a result. If it's important that we take it out of the line-up as a qualifier, fine. There's still the matter that Dr. Harley himself is currently telling my H NOT to sign up for coaching. (I can send you a copy/quote of his specific response to him if you also have concerns about that.)


Dr. Harley has informed my H that his LB's have pushed me into withdrawal (re: snail analogy.) He told him that he needs to stop his LB's first, and then I'll eventually "come out of my shell." He told that to my H back in April. Dr. Harley is not instructing me to do anything, now or back then. We were both on the phone call recently, the call my H wanted to do and for which he presented all his issues in the introductory email, yet Dr. Harley opted to address my complaints of my H and is working with him on his behavior. He has pointed out to my H that my H tends to draw me back in and then "smack" me. He also said that my H is NOT doing the program, regardless of his claim to be doing so.

I don't know what it is that you're wanting me to do?

Stop fighting. Can you do that? Is that clear enough to understand?

Honestly, I don't care if it was put on by Santa Claus. My point is that it wasn't put on by Dr. Harley and wasn't endorsed by him.

I don't doubt Dr H. told your H not to sign up. Didn't you INSIST that your husband not sign up because you are "done?" In that case, there would be no reason to sign up. They only take couples.


Stop brawling.

Very.

So what would it look like when he clearly doesn't abide by the POJA? I've taken on the approach of simply not saying anything from the get-go to avoid the inevitable argument, but that approach was criticized here. Today I tried to state a complaint and got an argument back from my H. Eventually I just dropped it. Yesterday when we attempted to discuss the toilet issue, he completely ignore what I said as if I didn't even say it, so I reverted back to "whatever you want" in order to avoid an argument. Today, he told me he thought we had applied the POJA.

I don't expect you both to be experts at the POJA right out of the gate, but you shouldn't resort to "whatever you want" and you shouldn't fight.

Really? You, a BS, has to ask what value a man has in finding out his wife is having an EA? REALLY?

Bull. And you know it. What a crummy thing to say about a man who found out his wife was in love with someone else.

Also bull.
Markos could have been a complete crumb about meeting my EN and it would not have mattered as far as me having an affair. Poor boundaries cause affairs, not neglect or abuse. If you believe otherwise, you are at a higher risk for an affair than I originally thought and your husband should be even more diligent about keeping tabs on you. You have no clue how affairs start if you are willing to lay any blame on the BS.

This seems to be important to you but I don't know what else I can do except to take it off the list of qualifiers, which I've already done. Is there something else you're looking for here?

No, I don't believe I ever said anything like that to Dr. Harley. There was much discussion of withdrawal and feeling hopeless, which Dr. Harley recognized and justified(?). I certainly have felt "done" numerous times, but look to Dr. Harley as the only option for success at this point.

Feel free to throw in on the question I asked Marcos. I'd appreciate anyone's suggestion as I feel like I've already tried it from all angles, short of becoming a Stepford wife.

"It bothers me when you do that."

Edited to add: Also, post about it here.

What "fight" are you referring to?

Prisca (and Marcos), again, I apologize for reading into your situation and not gleaning a full understanding of it before commenting on it. Please forgive me as I realize how offbase I was. I truly feel bad about it and certainly didn't want to insult anyone that has been through the same pain I've been through. I will refrain from any further comments on your situation, I promise.

Can we put this to rest or is there something else you need from me?

It is important that you GET my point, which you seem to have not. It is important that you understand that a course put on by non-Harley people is not the same as a Harley course. What I am looking for is for you to GET that point.

Do you GET that POINT?

No, I don't believe I ever said anything like that to Dr. Harley. There was much discussion of withdrawal and feeling hopeless, which Dr. Harley recognized and justified(?). I certainly have felt "done" numerous times, but look to Dr. Harley as the only option for success at this point.[/quote]

I am encouraged that you NOW look to Dr Harley as the only option for success. That is a positive change. You might let him know this and see how he feels about you going into the program.


Stop fighting and brawling is very straightforward. I am pretty certain you understand those terms. That advice would be helpful in your marriage and on this board. See, people don't have to help you here, did you know that? So when you spend your time being argumentative it makes people less likely to want to volunteer their personal time to help you.

I have been on this board for years and if I was in trouble, Markos and Prisca would be in the top 5 people I would go to for help. If I were you, I wouldn't run them off because their help can be invaluable. Not only do they know the program inside and out but they have a great marriage to prove it. For your sake, you might want to hang onto them.

In Love Busters it is recommended that you give your spouse a weekly list of each Love Buster: a list of selfish demands, a list of disrespectful judgments, a list of things your spouse did that you were reluctant about that bothered you, etc.

So, make out these lists, and give them to him once a week.

Post them here, too.

It's that simple, no need to fight.

I'm certain that will work in the future. At this point, that statement is responded to by him with defensiveness of what he did and an expectation that I justify my reason for feeling that way. I even tried reminding him today of your previous posts to him indicating that how I feel is how I feel, which accomplished nothing. Of course, all of this is done with the same sarcastic, belittling disrespect that SugarCane recognized in his posts (and worse, because in the email/posts, he has time to worksmith what he says vs. the unfiltered version that comes out of his mouth.)

So, in the meantime, do you have another suggestion? One where I don't continue to get chewed on?

Also, I have posted some things, like offering to detail his lack of transparency if he claimed he was being transparent, but no one took me up on it. If I'm posting just to vent, I'll pass.

You........will pass?

The worksheets are great that way because there doesn't need to be any response. Just give them to him. You can send them via email or print them out and leave them somewhere for him to find. There doesn't need to be any response. If he has a response, just refuse to discuss it, and tell him to post here or email Dr. Harley instead. By then you will have already posted here the same information that you gave him in the worksheet.


Yes, quit debating with him. Don't try to prove you have the right to feel what you feel; just feel it whether he likes it or not.


Worksheets! Once a week, and copy the forum.


He posted his claim that he is transparent today at 3:03 P.M. I've been out and about all day and only just now able to respond. Do you want to let us know how he is failing you in this regard? That would be helpful information.

Also, please stop being sarcastic when you communicate; just pass the information.

Yes, I do get that point. An apple is not an orange. Would it help if I stop in the office at church tomorrow and ask if they still have records back that far and have them check if in fact it was presented by the Harleys? I've already agreed to take it off my list of qualifiers because I can't prove one way or the other.

What do you mean "NOW?" I've always followed his program. I was the one that wrote to Dr. Harley in April, and several other times. I agreed to the call-in. Never was Dr. Harley under the impression I was against his program. I believe he sees the damage that my H's LB's are doing and recognizes the reason for my withdrawal and doesn't see any value in "digging the snail out of its shell with a fork." I've always been willing to re-engage once my H ever got on board. But, again, even Dr. Harley said my H isn't following the program. What, then, would be the value of the program if only one of us is still doing it?

Of course I know that people don't have to help me. And again, I'm here because my H requested it. I'm much more interested in what I can do to help people help my H, but there seems to be a lot of pointing at me not doing something. What is it you expect me to be doing? I'm waiting while Dr. Harley works with my H, though, admittedly, the day-to-day frustration regularly threatens my resolve. If I were having an EA right now, I can't even imagine sticking it out. The lure would simply be too great.

And perhaps I'm just dimwitted, but "stop fighting and brawling" is not nearly as clear-cut to me as you think it should be.

Yes, meaning I'd don't find any personal value in just venting, though I realize a lot of people do. I don't, and only post with in the hopes of getting feedback.

And I would have to think that posting just to vent would certainly qualify as wasting people's time.

That is great. Please respect that we are volunteers and lose the snotty tone...or we will pass. We have our own lives too and are not obliged to answer your every question. We are not even obliged to post to you.

Could you please remind me of what worksheets you're referring to? Is it in the 5 Steps booklet?

So I say, "It bothers me when you do that," and he responds in his typical manner, should I just walk away? Should I tell him to take it to the board? At that point, it's still an outstanding issue (ie. the toilet). Walking away seems like non-verbal way of saying "whatever you want."

Got it.

It's not your response time, Marcos, and I'm glad you were out and about, hopefully having fun. My comment was in regard to the odd nature of posting about my H's thread but not being able to post ON it. It's just unusual and I'm not sure how I'm supposed to manage this, as in post my contradictions to his posts as I see them or just wait until someone specifically visits my thread and asks me. I'll give details in the next post.

To you?? Sincere apologies! Not intended to come across that way at all. I can understand that it could be inadvertently because of my frustration with my personal situation, so I apologize. I will be very sensitive to that in the future. Please call me on it immediately if you notice me doing it again.

Great! It took a while, but we are making progress. I needed you to GET that point so I could move onto my next point. Which is that many people have come here over the years [including me] who have "worked the program" through a church or on their own without success. Once they get direct guidance from Dr Harley [in whatever form] things start changing. You can see that I signed up in 2001 but still didn't really know the program until 2007, when we went through Dr Harley's course. So you should be positive about the program.



That is great news to hear! Hopefully, you will demonstrate engagement instead of saying over and over you have tried everything and it hasn't worked. We will see.


What we expect you to be doing is using the program, rather than brawling on the forum. I don't think that is helpful, do you? And thank you for acknowledging that people here don't have to help you. We are not paid employees but volunteers.

Melody, I wish I could buy you a cup of coffee and spend a few minutes with you in person. I've obviously offended you and I'm sorry. Frankly, I hate the impersonal nature of text. It allows too many misunderstandings, especially when I am *NOT* an effective writer. Too much time writing logic code, probably.

They are described in Love Busters, and there's a template worksheet in the workbook. But really, all it has to be is a list.

I appreciate the apology but I am saying this - not because I am offended - but because I am concerned FOR YOU. You need all the help you can get and I see you repelling some of the best volunteers on the forum. It is not just me that has tried to point this out to you. I hope you are more aware of this now.

I hear you and how well it worked for you. Then I wonder why Dr. Harley would not advise my H to sign up, especially when he recognizes that my H isn't following it in spite of already reading all of his books.

Just to clarify, the PROGRAM works. It hasn't worked (in its current application) in our M.

Okay, then considering all that, perhaps I'll just wait for people ask me what they want to know. I don't think I can contest my H's posts without it looking like I'm brawling. Good?

Definitely, and thank you. It does make me even more inclined to take a "hand's off" approach. You all have a better handle on this than I do, obviously, so I'm thinking I'll just step back from the process. I certainly don't want to inhibit it in any way. I'll fill out the forms. Otherwise, you all please let me know what you need from me.

Or he may think you won't get involved. Or he may rather supervise you directly. I don't know. But I would ask and let him know you are willing if you are.

On Wednesday, per your instructions, Remark sent me a list of his passwords, which he does periodically. On Friday, after all the posts about snooping, I thought perhaps I should snoop, too. When I tried to login to his email using the password on the list he just sent me, it didn't work. After addressing it with him, he sent me a new list. Apparently he keeps a document at home and a document at work. The one at work was the accurate version, not the one at home. Of course, I can't get to his files at work, so I would never have access to the "accurate" copy.

Also, when I went into his personal email account, I realized he was still doing most of his communication through his work email, which I also don't have access to. He started doing that shortly after the latest discovery of his inappropriate email exchanges in his personal account. I told him I found it suspicious, and even pointed out that using his work email for personal business was not a good idea, especially in light of his previous employment issues. He still regularly hands out his work email address for contact information.

His statement that I'm welcome to snoop is accurate, I simply don't have access to do so.

Can he sign into his work email from your home computer? Almost all companies have a way to do this. OR, he could set up his work email account on an iPad and you would have access to everything.

Just dropping in to give an update as I was instructed to do last week.

Honestly, it was a busy week with very little personal interaction. Unfortunately, we still had one incident on Monday when I discovered that Remark had fixed the toilet after all, in spite of my sharing with him that I preferred that he call a plumber to fix it. Technically, on Friday he did call and schedule a plumber for Monday to fix it, but then did it himself on Sunday anyway but left the appointment to have the plumber "check" his work.

There was much discussion on the topic of the toilet previously between he and myself, as well as discussion by him with the forum, about the POJA and how it works, so I have no doubt he understood my position. The really difficult part for me to wrap my mind around is that he actually fixed the toilet on Sunday 12/7 between his 8:10 and his 2:57 p.m. posts, in which he was talking about his newfound understanding of the POJA. He knew I didn't want him to do it, so he did it while I was gone from the house. He didn't tell me beforehand that he was going to do it and he didn't tell me afterwards that he had. I just discovered it on my own on Monday morning. And when I pointed out that I had an issue with it, he went into his normal response of defensiveness and rationalization.

Per your instructions, I didn't fight with him. I just stated my dissatisfaction with his behavior and left for work.

It really put a damper on my week, though. I suspect it would have been very awkward for me being around him if I hadn't been so busy. Thankfully now that my schedule has freed up, he's out of town for the weekend visiting his family again. It was just such a shock in light of his posts here. (BTW, we have 3 other working toilets and can easily afford a plumber.) So I'm quite at a loss.

Also, later in the morning after the plumber came, Remark sent me an email pointing out that the plumber approved his work, and that it didn't even cost anything because he had a coupon for a free consult. Am I wrong for feeling like this is a "dig?" Like, "I told you so?"

Thoughts? (With Remark being out of town, it's unlikely he'll be online until possibly Sunday or Monday.)

Also, MelodyLane, I just wanted to follow up with you and let you know that I have confirmed that the HNHN seminar we attended in 1995 was, in fact, hosted by Dr. Harley himself. Just in case that makes a difference in how you approach our situation.

Radio Clip of Remark and JustDaytoDay's Call
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4
Segment #5

I'll drop back in tomorrow to post my weekly worksheet/list.

In the meantime, I'm looking for a suggestion on how I should handle some daily interactions with Remark. I'm looking for something more functional, something between complete avoidance and hand-holding him thru this process. For the most part, we have very little interaction, but when we do, it just doesn't go well and it's evident I can't be doing any accountability with him. At the same time, there are things that are glaringly obvious to me that he misses.

For example, I had a discussion with him early this week where he complained that I wasn't putting as much effort into this as he was, and admitted his resentment because I wasn't. I pointed out to him a post on his thread from 12/3 that spelled it out to him, which was also a reminder of what Dr. Harley had already told him. He had apparently "lost track" of his instructions, again.

He also rejected my complaint that his raising his voice to me was an angry outburst, so he reread the chapter in LB, asked Dr. Harley, and posted on the forum. Only when he finally got an answer confirming my statement did he buy in. I pointed out that he had once again sought/valued the opinion of an anonymous stranger over me, even though he had been told repeatedly that *I* am the person who defines his LB's.

I also suggested that instead of repeatedly posting, effectively, "I'm here and ready for you to tell me what to do," that perhaps he should put some effort into it himself, and ask questions or present issues, which he did. But right now, I've noticed that there are several posts that he has probably overlooked and won't respond to. Do I tell him? It's not like he can't read or couldn't find them if he looked.

And what do I do with things that he presents less than accurately? Ignore them and let him run with it? Or respond to it with my perspective so that the readers can provide more accurate/appropriate feedback?

I'm feeling like if I'm not involving myself, this process will veer widely off-course and potentially crash and burn, but whenever I get involved, we have conflict and I just want to throw in the towel anyway. I'd be thrilled if I could just skip off to Europe for 6 months and come back to a fully-enlightened MB husband, but I can't see than happening.

So in the meantime, how do I figure out the appropriate format of (minimal) involvement while avoiding the conflicts??

Just posting my list...

- Angry outburst when he go angry and raised his voice at me 2 minutes into a conversation.
- Disrespectful judgment when he assigned motive to my actions.
- Rejected my complaints and discredited them
- Eye contact goes out the window with any topic of discussion that he doesn't like
- Discovered his membership to Classmates.com, not on his password list
- Discovered that he has his outgoing email set to "don't save copy to sent folder" so besides the relative inaccessibility of his work email, I can't see what he's sending out in his personal email

Is this helping? I'm not getting much feedback. Am I wasting people's time?

(((Hugs))) I remember how hard it is going through the holidays, wanting the joy and peace you see on TV, and home life can be so different. Think of some things you can do this weekend to set your family up for success. Some fun, light FC time walking or driving around the neighbor looking at lights, depending on the temperature, hot cocoa in hand. That would be fun for UA, too! Plan something fun for New Years' together, it will make deposits every time someone asks what you're doing and you tell them about it.

I've heard about Remark's plan, sounds like he needs more support in it from others, and I hope he will get it. What is your plan? You sound stressed, do you work? Do you get some time off this week, with the kids off? How can you get some support in such a tough time?

Are you in contact with Dr. Harley?

Have you asked him about the classmates.com?

Yes, we're in contact with Dr. Harley. He offers great advice but is not terribly available for the minutia. Of course, it's the holidays, too. I'm sure the man has a life, and an enviable happy marriage.

I did ask Remark about Classmates.com. At first, he said he didn't sign up for it, that it's just junk mail. But that's not true because when I clicked on the link, it took me into it with his profile/password already loaded. It also had his school information already selected, which it doesn't have by default. I know this because when I tried to go into it on my own, it doesn't take you anywhere until you provide the school and profile information.

Then he claimed he did it a long time ago and didn't remember doing it. I tired of the game at that point.

I mentioned that I couldn't see his "sent" emails. His said they should be there, unless he "somehow" has it set up to not save them. I get a lot of "I don't know" responses from him whenever I ask him questions.

Thanks for your support, New. I do have a job, school just finished for the semester. It was very stressful for a bit, but that should settle down now, at least until school starts again.

I'm going to do some things over the holidays that I find enjoyable, even if it's just getting out and about. My son is a good source of joy for me, but most likely it won't be with my H. Remark and I have completely lost any positive connection, and until he stops his LB's, that's not going to change. I do have wonderful family in town and will see them throughout.

Glad you are taking care of yourself. This is a busy time but more people should be back next week.

I could use some feedback on something, please.

First some background: Remark and I are VERY different in regards to organization and structure. I'm not a neat-freak by any sense of the imagination, but I'm a firm believe in the old adage, "A stitch in time saves nine." Remark lives in a manner that drives me crazy. For example, he spent 45 minutes last week looking for his badge for work because he had unconsciously put it in a drawer where it didn't belong. A couple months ago, he lost his car keys when he was out of town and had to spend $400 on a locksmith. Last month, he "topped off" the oil in my car and overfilled it, leaving the engine knocking and dripping oil. Bills are often paid late or paid twice. All of this is very typical, and not at all exceptional.

This weekend, I tried to do a 5-minute project hanging a coat-rack in my son's room. When I went to get the drill from the workbench, the key wasn't with it. When I looked in the screw drawer where the extra keys are stored, there weren't any. I noticed one of the other drawers were missing, obviously lost/broken. In the slot instead, Remark had stuffed a bunch of packages of screws so none of the surrounding drawers would open. If you forced them open, the packages of screws came tumbling out. I finally found a key in the tool box with the screwdrivers. My 5-minute project took 15 minutes because I spent 10 minutes looking for the tools needed. At the same time, I have some tools that I've purchased for myself that Remark isn't allowed to touch. I can't tell you the zen it was for me to go to my tool box and find my drill bits exactly where they're supposed to be. And because I took 10 seconds to put them back when I was finished, I know they'll be there next time I need them. Assuming Remark stays out of them, of course, which is no guarantee.

So for the current incident:

This weekend, I wrote some checks and planned to drop them off for mailing. I noticed the mailman drive by and asked Remark to run them out to him, but to please quickly double-check them for a mailing address and stamp. Normally, I would have ran them out myself instead of asking Remark but I was in my robe. I watched to see that he caught the mailman in time, and saw him start to hand over the envelopes without checking. I opened the door and yelled out to him, asking him again to double-check.

Later, I was getting ready to leave the house and called up the hallway to have my son feed the dog. He couldn't hear me so I started to go tell him, but Remark offered to do it for me instead. I proceeded to leave and was surprised to see that Remark followed me out into the garage. I questioned it, and he said he was going to tell him after he dealt with the car. I started to go do it myself, but Remark stopped what he was doing to go do it then, but was obviously perturbed.

In a conversation later that evening, the two incidents were referenced. I complained that I feel like I'm a single parent of TWO teenagers, that my daily life is chaos, and that I wished he shared in the responsibility of life in a more conscious/intentional manner.

He complained that I micro-manage.

To my complaint, he told me that he doesn't do things my way, that he wouldn't have checked the envelopes and instead just assume I had done it correctly in the first place, and that he would have gotten around to getting the dog fed eventually. He said my way is not the only way to do something and suggested that I should just be happy with whatever help he offers however he does it.

To his complaint, I said that I need to achieve a minimal level of order in my life, and that the 5 seconds it takes to double-check envelopes is well worth it to me to not have to pay fines for payments late because the envelopes circled back to me. I acknowledged that it's not his way of doing things but is something that I need, and I committed to doing it myself and to not impose upon him again in the future. (I believe Dr. Harley is in support of this approach.)

Remark then criticized my solution because it eliminates opportunities for him to meet my needs.

I'm feeling very much like I'm "damned if I do, damned if I don't" in regards to Remark, besides feeling like our lifestyle is driving me crazy. Can you share your perspective on this? Am I missing something here? Is there a healthy way to address this?

I have been guilty of that. I'm sure we all drive our husbands nuts with it. What happens is that we get into the habit of micro-managing when we have babies/small children as a coping mechanism when we are drowning in childcare and full time work. They grow out of it but we don't. It is a truly terrible habit and sucks the spontaneity and joy out of life very fast.

I hope you thanked him for his complaint and told him you would address it.

To clarify, he doesn't claim that I micro-manage all the time, just in these two incidents. Our life/house is too much of a mess for him to claim that. What I understand is that he doesn't like me to have parameters on what I ask of him and that I should be happy with whatever he delivers. For example, I can ask for pizza, but I can't specify when I would like it or what kind of toppings.

I didn't thank him, I did acknowledge his complaint and attempt to address it but he criticized that as well.

I am so confused, I thought he was living elsewhere? Maybe it's better to limit communication to your dates and things of that nature? The things you are asking would take a thoughtfulness that isn't there today, and you are kind of guaranteed to be disappointed. I mean like, if you told us the beginning of the story, we don't even know you all, but we could have predicted the outcome just based on the history you gave.

Especially with all the passive-aggressive behaviors Remark was working on, it sounds so unlikely that he would follow through on those things when you ask him. I think when you two restore your marriage, you two will find other ways to meet ENs, instead of thinking you can ask him to do something and he would follow through. That doesn't sound like the man you married. Maybe other ways to meet your ENs like RC and conversation and affection instead.

Now I'm confused.

No, he's still living at the house. We discussed our next step regarding separation but wanted to get thru the holidays.

We don't have dates. Remark is still too disrespectful for me to want to spend any recreational time with him. I'm confused about your suggestion that I could find an alternative way to meet my EN's. It sounds like you're suggesting I need to find an alternative to my need for trust. As if I could suggest that he should substitute my domestic support for his declared EN for sexual fulfillment?

Great, all the more reason to thank him for the complaint. Sounds easy to resolve.


My DH likes the kitchen to be very clean. I have told him that I will do my best to not leave a mess. But I do not want him to stand at the door giving detailed instructions while I scrub. We don't eat pizza but specifying the kind of toppings might be like standing at the door giving instructions so yes, I can see that.



Try thanking him, it really works! Also important not to discuss the complaint. I am an infuriatingly logical person and am always tempted to ask why. I have learned to bite my tongue thanks to MB. It does not have to make sense; it is a valid feeling and just 'is'.

What is the resolution? I thought committing to not asking him that sort of thing again was a solution, but he rejected it.

Would you reject his cleaning the kitchen himself to his standards? I thought that was a Harley-supported principle (that the person who had the preference could be responsible for it.)

I didn't ask why. Not because I understand it, but because I've always understood that people simply feel/think differently and that that's okay. I wish my H afforded me the same courtesy.

When you say, "it really works," what does it "do?"

Easy to resolve a very specific compliant.

The resolution is to thank him for his complaint and to say you will do your best to not do that again. That he is to point it out again if you are still doing it. How could he reject that?


Absolutely I would support his cleaning the kitchen to his standard but his complaint was about the way I was leaving it when I used it and that was the complaint I addressed. Since I do most of the cooking and cleaning up, the state of the kitchen had become a problem for him.

There is a distinction between leaving the kitchen in a state that does not make your spouse unhappy and cleaning it to his standard whilst he stands in the doorway giving directions (micro managing). That would be the point where I would smile and hand the scrubbing brush to him.

If it was pizza, I would not want him to dictate his toppings (micro managing) but he would be perfectly entitled to tell me that he did not want olives and then I would make the pizza without olives.




Listening carefully and addressing a complaint validates feelings. It is brilliant because not only does it get rid of a problem but it also creates love bank deposit when you respectfully eliminate the complaint. It is a wonderful feeling to know that you can safely make a complaint and that the issue will be addressed

I told him I wouldn't ask him that sort of thing again. He rejected that suggestion, told me he wanted me to ask, told me I wasn't fostering closeness in our M if I stopped. I can't explain it, just passing it on. Seems to me like I'm wrong either way.

I get the process, I was specifically asking what thanking him for his complaint does.

In my effort to do this, he has since completely retracted his entire complaint, claiming that he realizes I wasn't actually micro-managing, that he just said that because he was embarrassed he didn't remember what I asked him to do for the 10 seconds it took him to get to the end of the driveway, because he got distracted instead with his chit-chat with the mailman.

That is enchanting and well done - great progress for both of you!

Lol, your husband is me. I do this kind of thing all the time and drive myself nuts. I bought oxygenated bleach this week to refresh my linens and it's a good thing I did it straight away because now I have no idea where I put it.

Im one of those absent minded people but I have little ways to keep order. A to-do list and night-time and morning time routines.

I wouldn't do well if I was asked to do stuff on the fly, like you have done with your husband here. For example if he was already doing something (like going to check on the car) and is distracted by your request, he's going to forget something. I'm really envious of people who can juggle things spontaneously without forgetting but routine and checking things off systematically is best if you are forgetful.

The mail man thing in particular would be a nightmare because he was asked to do something in a hurry which is a disaster for forgetful people.

Why not consider doing the DS inventory and making an organised plan for who does what. If your husband wants to meet your needs he can do something off your list as a surprise for you occasionally (only things you are happy for him to do though - keep a personal list for things to do yourself, perhaps things involving your tool box!)

The home website Flylady has good night time and morning routines as an example. Since mail and dog feedings are things which happen regularly they can be planned into the home routine without you having to spin plates and remember everything. For example you could have your son put the dog's feeding times into his phone as a daily reminder and make him responsible for that.

Sorry, I had you confused then. I hope you two can resolve your issues over the holidays here. Are there any positive changes you see so far, in how you and your H approach one another?


So you're saying the love busting hasn't stopped as yet? I remember rereading the Conversation is Boring every day before my then-H came home from work! Have you tried it, it can help the evening go better. And I got some good skills to take forward with me.

It's great that he came back and said that you're not micromanaging. And that he wants you to give him these opportunities to meet your ENs. But remember what indiegirl said, some folks are just not good at that stuff. I'm concerned that when his pattern is to forget stuff, that it will make you miserable to keep trying and failing at this stuff. We want to set you up for success, building on what you two are already good at! Does that make sense?

I'm not suggesting to substitute out the need altogether, just right now to focus on the top intimate ENs - affection, conversation, recreational companionship, and sf. Checking mail before it goes out would fall under domestic support, right? The domestic support inventory will help you two each do the things you find most important, and like indie said, he can surprise you with something in a good way.

It's not progress. It has been his M.O. for 20 years. Part of his defensiveness, or his abuse, to berate me until I accept responsibility for his accusation, and then act contrite, suggest my behavior was actually a good thing and request that I continue to do it in the future. Only recently have I become fully aware of the pattern. Of course, you couldn't possibly know that and it would appear like a good thing from an outside perspective.

Are you in contact with Dr. Harley?

Yes, we are, though mostly my H is. Dr. Harley has asked him to drop him a note everyday regarding how our interactions go. We've both asked him about the coaching program.

Have you talked to Dr. Harley about what you've said here? What does he say you should do?

I haven't discussed this particular incident because it just happened very recently. Others I have presented. He tends to take my comments and translate them to my husband, but I don't typically get a direct response from him (might have gotten one or two.) He seems to be focused primarily on POJA and UA (an example I gave on the radio program previously) but I feel like our issues are much more complicated than that. Which is why I've asked him about the coaching, so there could be more regular and personal interaction with someone, but I didn't get a response to that either. Perhaps he's just very busy because of the holidays.

I think it would be an excellent idea to sign up for the coaching, plus you would also have direct contact with Dr. Harley.

Is Remark on board with signing up?

Also, why don't email Dr. Harley and ask him what you should be doing?

On the program, Remark (he's on-board with it) asked Dr. Harley about the coaching. He said he'd "get to that later." Since then, I have point-blank asked him in an email if we should, or why he thinks we shouldn't. No response. Remark has asked as well with no response.

Aww gotcha. I'm sure he's just busy due to the Holidays. Even the radio show has been replays during the holidays. So hang on until you hear back.

The really confusing part is that he will respond to other questions in the same email, but not ones about coaching.

We can only suggest that you ask Dr Harley again, more directly. Make this the only question in the email so that it does not get lost among other questions.

Yes, please ask Dr. Harley.

I just sent him an email. Just that, nothing else.

"He makes a complaint. When I thank him and tell him I will address it, he retracts the complaint".

Does this sound like a shortened summary of what is happening?

If that summarizes your situation, I think I can see the problem although I agree with Brainy, you should take this to Dr Harley. Something about the way you respond to his complaints is causing him to retract them. You need to work out what it is that you are doing.

What happens after the complaint is that when I ask him something like "what is it you don't like" or "how would you like me to handle it differently?" and he takes a moment to answer, only then does he look beyond his own unpleasant feelings. I believe what happens is that when he experiences something unpleasant like being angry/embarrassed/disappointed/frustrated/hurt, his thought process shuts down (impulse control?) and he automatically attributes it to me, even though it might be caused by his OWN actions or have nothing to do with me. For example, years ago, he blamed me for the outcome of an event 6 months afterwards because he didn't like how things went. After a few minutes of discussion, he realized that I wasn't even party to the decision, it was all his. It had to do with a punishment for his oldest daughter (my step) that I very consciously chose to stay out of and explained to him at the time why (not MY child.) So in reality, the choice was all his, as well as the consequences, which he remembered and acknowledged only after I reminded him. But at the moment of unpleasantness, he automatically blamed me. This really is script for problems big and small. I seem to be an immediate scapegoat for every unpleasant feeling in life, even if self-inflicted.

The recent toilet incident is a current example. I told him I preferred that he called a plumber to fix it. He told me that his complying with my request made him feel like he would be "handing over his testicles to me." Nevermind that he's not a plumber but a computer programmer; that we have three other working toilets; that we could easily afford the plumber; that fixing the toilet meant the water needed to be turned off to the whole house because the shut-off to the toilet wasn't working, so failure to do the job correctly either meant an emergency call to a plumber or 3 days without water to the house. Though all these facts were available to him, he didn't seem to consider beyond his feelings of emasculation. At that point, *I* was the problem. POJA was out of the question, but deceit was not.

Why not try just thanking him for the complaint and saying you will address it? There is really no need to ask follow on questions. My sense is that he is second guessing himself when you do that but our initial reactions are usually the most honest expression of our feelings so stop there.


I think you are making this more complicated than it needs to be. We all have uncomfortable feelings from time to time and the urge to blame someone else for them can be very strong. Indeed, if you drop something heavy on your toe, your brain flashes with a moment of real anger. During that moment there is a natural reflex to look for someone to blame. But that moment soon passes if you let it. Even if the person tells you at the time that you were responsible for the accident, let it go. Once you have examined the broken toe and commiserated, gently tease him about what he said. Laughter is a great healer.


Being a victim is always a choice. Decide today that you are never again going to be a victim.

LivingWell, I've been following this thread to learn from it. Can you elaborate on this last point? How would someone not "be a victim" if they are willingly letting someone blame them unfairly for things? Is it just having an attitude of indifference to the fact that the person is blaming you? Or would they clear the air later when emotions have settled? When I imagine not feeling a victim of unfair blame I also imagine myself withdrawing emotionally from the person blaming me.

One day my XH came bursting into the house to me to tell me that I had caused a terrible car-crash. When I looked puzzled (I was in the house at the time) he explained that he had been so distracted by something I had said/done that he forgot to put on the hand brake and his brand new BMW had rolled down the hill into a tree.

I just told him that I was sorry to hear his car was damaged.

Yes, blaming your spouse is a love buster so of course the effect is to cause you to withdraw emotionally but there is no need to also allow it to upset you.

The beauty of refusing to be a victim is that, if it does not work, eventually they stop trying it on. It is really easy, you just decide to not be one.

I must be missing something because I don't see this:
...in this:

I don't think I could honestly in good faith thank a partner for telling me I was the cause of a terrible car crash. But thankfully your relationship hasn't deteriorated to that point. We want to support you in keeping it from getting to that point!

It can be hard to infer tone from postings, but you sound so weary and frustrated. Which makes sense after being lovebusted so long. I want to enjoy this process, to be able to look back on these holidays as the start of some new patterns that bring your family peace and joy together. We crossposted yesterday, did you get to read that link to the Conversation is Boring article I posted?

Yes after I posted that, I wondered if that would be misleading and it was!

You are dealing with two separate issues. One is complaints from your DH and the other is feeling that you are being blamed for things.

Complaints needs to be dealt with with a quick thank you and statement that you will address the issue. Then end of subject. If you need further clarification, wait a day or two, choose a neutral moment and gently ask for clarification.

Being blamed (which is an issue you state has happened repeatedly) is entirely different. The reason I gave the car example is because it was clearly not a complaint, it was never intended as a complaint and, if it had been a complaint it would have been one that was impossible to address. It was just bs and I treated it as such. I did not even go outside, I just said I was sorry to hear his car was damaged.

Do not be a victim when you are blamed unfairly. You can complain, you can joke about it or you can ignore it but if it is not your fault, do not allow it to be your fault.

No, I was not suggesting she do that. I hope my clarification made sense for you too.

So did this approach...

... work in this situation?

My H does this. Well, except for coming back later for clarification. Oftentimes, he'll immediately apologize (vs. thank me for my complaint) and promise to address it going forward. It accomplishes his primary goal of ending the discussion quickly. However, since he has no real understanding or ownership of my complaint, he never addresses anything. I see him doing the same thing in his responses to posters on his thread.

I can't, in good faith, commit to addressing something that I have no idea what it is I'm committing to. His blaming me for things I'm not responsible for just complicates it further.

Only being responsible for wrecking a car would be an improvement for me. No, he blamed me for his daughter leaving to go live with her mother because of the punishment *I* issued for her unauthorized party at our house. And this he did early in our marriage when I was meeting his EN's and he was happy with me.

I think I'm more resigned than weary. Weary was a while back. I had read your link previously, read it again when you sent it. It's just not appropriate with the current state of our relationship. Like addressing a paper-cut when there's a gaping chest wound. But thank you for your kind words.

What you've described sounds very much like a victim mentality, that being the urge to blame someone else. From Wikipedia, under "victim mentality": "blaming others for a situation that one has created oneself or significantly contributed to." This might be natural for some people, but not all people, not healthy people. If not a victim mentality, it is at least a lack of impulse control.

I'm not accepting the blame from him. Regardless, it's a love buster for me and has contributed significantly to our situation. For me to choose not to be a victim would be to choose not to continue to expose myself to the behavior, which I'm doing, first by withdrawal, then with separation, likely ending in divorce because the behavior doesn't change.

Have you read Dr Harley's material on blended families? He actually recommends against the step parent giving out discipline.

Did you POJA the discipline with him?

In this case, I DIDN'T participate in the discipline but still got blamed. Other times, we did do POJA, but when it went bad, as blended families do, he still turned and blamed me, even though he was party to the process. Regardless, the kids are long grown and gone so it's somewhat moot. It was just a glaring example of what happens regularly on a smaller scale.

Aww gotcha. Dr. Harley says blended families have such high failure wait because POJA isn't followed.

Have you seen this?
Resentment Type A and Type B

I don't think I've seen that article, but I'll check it out.

Yes of course it is.



Here I would disagree. You choose not to be a victim. . . by choosing not to be a victim. It really is that simple.

You remove yourself from the situation both mentally and physically. You politely say that it is unacceptable to blame you and then you LEAVE THE ROOM. If you are stuck in a car when it happens, you put on headphones and listen to music.

I read postings from you about 10 year old events . What about just letting this stuff go? It is a cancer that is sucking the joy out of your life.

And I see my having to alter MY behavior to accommodate his still makes me the victim, just voluntarily so. If I had wanted to have on headphones, I would have already. I'm suggesting that there are different ways to address it. Different people, different situations, different approaches. I'm glad you found one that works for you. Mine works for me and I believe mirrors what Dr. Harley describes as the natural progression of an unhealthy dynamic. I think it's alright if we disagree, do you?

Referencing the older events shows that the behavior is a long-term pattern, behavior that happens even when he's getting his needs met from me. The "cancer" you're referring to is an overdrawn love bank today, which I readily acknowledge. Not discussing it is not going to put those withdrawals back in. And I don't have these conversations or even thoughts if I'm not talking with someone about the dysfunction in my relationship. Just curious, since you're now D'd and remarried, how long ago was the car accident accusation? We either learn from the past or we're doomed to repeat it, and I've heard Dr. Harley say the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Why, then, would I want to forget or ignore it, especially when the behavior is the same today?

I don't have 'one that works for me', I refuse to be a victim and have always refused to be one.

absolutely


Goodness, that was probably 10 years ago. I laughed about it then and laugh now just remembering it. He was always pulling that kind of stuff. Of course the cheating was my fault too :-)

Yeah, sounds about right. %)

Dont get into these terms.
Just focus on following Dr Harleys methods and Email him for guidAnce if needed

What a hair-raisingly disrespectful way to speak to your husband...

While you have page after page of commiserating about what a clod he is, it's rather strange that comparing your husband to a child gets swept under the rug... when it is a huge contributor to the state of your marriage.


What this, and earlier complaints in this thread about his honesty, bring to mind, is Dr. Harley's approach to fostering honesty in a relationship, which you can read here.


Note, I am not exonerating your husband of wrong doing, but if we as posters are doing our best to help you, we are not commiserating with you about his failures, or "validating your feelings about his actions."

Instead, if we as posters are doing our best, we are helping you find ways to keep your side of the street clean, and doing the same with him.

For instance, disagreements can be had without argument with a simple, short statement; "I am not enthusiastic about that."

I've read a number of your other posts. You have a brash, castigating way about you, so I'm surprised you would have even noticed something as subtle as that. Regardless, I'll take blunt honesty over sugar-coated fluff any day of the week, but that means I give it exactly the same way. Under the circumstances, I'm actually quite proud of that interaction with him: I spoke in "I feel" statements, avoided an AO, provided him with instructions on what I needed him to do to address it, and kept it short and to the point. Don't expect any better from me right now, it's not going to happen. I'm barely managing that.

Besides, regardless of all of the above, my H doesn't do "subtle."

I've read that before. I either don't understand the instruction Dr. Harley is giving or I can't imagine why anyone would want to do that. I even looked up the word recrimination to see if I could decipher what I was missing. As I understand it, the only thing that approach would do for me is drain my love bank faster.

Was there a particular point you were trying to make?

Don't commiserate or validate, I certainly don't need that! And I'm not looking for advice on how to clean my side of the street. I'm perfectly capable of following Dr. Harley's principles and did so for years (feel free to validate this statement with my H.) Right now, I am not. My love bank is exhausted and I've been in a holding pattern since April waiting to see if my M can be saved, waiting for my H to follow Dr. Harley's principles and personal advice to him. He hasn't. In September/October, I did six weeks of Plan A to eliminate my H's excuses. He still hasn't done it. My side of the street is irrelevant at this point if my H can't demonstrate that he's capable of doing it too. If my perspective is not valuable to anyone in regards to assisting my H with his thread, then I won't waste everyone's time.

And then what happens? In my case, my H goes and does it anyway. But if you read my thread, you should know that.

I received a response from Dr. Harley. He said, simply, "I encourage any couple who have exhausted their resources in finding a way to solve their marital problems to participate in the Marriage Builders Online Program." I've also noticed some chatter on my H's thread, asking if I would be willing to participate or at least give my H feedback.

I have three concerns.

First, I have absolutely no interest in doing another "program" that teaches the Harley principles. I'm saturated. Remark has copies of several Harley workbooks that I've filled out for him. My involvement in that regard shouldn't be necessary.

Second, I have no doubt that it has been very successful for a large number of couples. But like P90X, you actually have to DO what it instructs you to DO in order for it to be effective. That has always been my H's problem, and I don't see what "power" an accountability coach has to make him do it, any more than others/counselors have had in the past. I'm afraid for him/us, it will just be a waste of money.

Last, regarding my feedback. Here's what I'm imagining for that:

Yesterday, I told him that I don't believe that he loves me, that I feel like I live under his constant disdain. I pointed out that the people on the forum see the same thing, describing his words as laced with "withering contempt" and disrespect in every other sentence. I said that I believe there are behaviors inherent in the feeling of love for someone, such as wanting to do things to make them happy, sometimes (voluntarily) sacrificially, which he has never demonstrated. I referenced his statement that he felt like giving up what he wanted for what I wanted was like "putting his testicles in my purse." I said he seemed to have entered this marriage with no concept of the idea that maybe *I* wanted something out of it too, and that he had made it all about him since day one. He lies to me about minutia, throws me under the bus for other people, never addresses my complaints. Even his current efforts to save this marriage seem much more to do with not wanting to lose his standard of living than it has to do with me. If I were to die and leave him everything so he could just insert another woman into my role of cook/housekeeper/sex partner, he wouldn't skip a beat.

In his daily report to Dr. Harley this morning, he wrote, "Sheri said she believes my heart is wrong, does not love her, and she wants to end the marriage with a divorce. She said �If I loved her, I would not have deceived her re the toilet� and that is her foundation for judging my heart.... It sickens me to think about a toilet being the end of our marriage." "

I feel like once again he made me out to look like an "unreasonable cow" (thank you SugarCane.) Afterall, what sort of rational human being would judge a M or throw a M out because of one incident with a toilet? And yesterday, he posted on his thread that he had eliminated 3 entire categories of LB's, when I had just told him that I didn't perceive that he had eliminated any LB's. Am I supposed to offer feedback on these inaccuracies? Is this the sort of assessment I'm supposed to do? If so, I don't think I have the desire. If not, how can the coach possibly sort through the BS?

I don't want to commit to something that I'm not going to be able to follow through on. I'm hoping to get a better understanding of what to expect before I do.

Telling a spouse what toppings you would like on a pizza is not micro managing IMO. Seems like it would be a frustrating dance to tell someone what you don't want vs clearly telling them what you would like. The former would only create more poor communication problems and frustration.

JDD,

Only you can make the decision if you don't want to do the coaching or stay married vs pursue divorce but I will tell you that my ex was A LOT like Remark and I was beyond tired of holding his hand and spoon feeding him after YEARS of him dropping the ball, making promises, "trying", dropping the ball, rinse and repeat.

You sound like you are trying to convince yourself that you should continue in the marriage even though you know the likely outcome. You don't need anyone's permission for either.

You didn't avoid an AO at all. You may have avoided raising your voice, or cursing... but you resorted to disrespect. Don't play on that level.


Yes. Stop resorting to anger, disrespect, and demands as a way to get your needs met, or as a reaction to his Love Busting.


Well, it would have been nice if you had been here at that time. You would have been advised that following your 6 weeks of Plan A, you follow with separation and Plan B.


With your marriage in a critical state, if he refuses to take your feelings into account, and with your stated history, you should separate and go in to Plan B.

Side issue I know but I would be outraged if someone tried to tell me what to put on top of the pizza I was making. Fine to ask not to have something (say olives) on it but to tell me what to put on it?

If they were lucky they would get handed the project, if they were unlucky they would be wearing it :-)

This is rather interesting to see the different interpretations and perspectives. I believe it starts with one person meaning the pizza "being ordered from the pizza joint" and the other interpreting it being a "pizza being made by them." I think it's a good example of the reason why clear communication is important.

From What is planA/planB:
Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.

In my case, my H wasn't (currently) wayward. He wholeheartedly agreed to apply the Harley principles in our M. He still professes to be "all in." Are you saying that at that time, knowing my H was a firm believer in the program, listening every day to the radio program, reading and re-reading the Harley books, etc. that you still would have advised me to go to Plan B (no contact)?

I wouldn't be outraged if someone told me what they wanted though. If they didn't care what was on it with the exception of x and Y, that's fine too. You might get upset and see their request as a demand but others may not. Different communication styles. I want a person to tell me what they want vs what they don't want so it's clear and we can eat. Too much room for expecting to mind read if a person doesn't plainly say what they prefer on the pizza. That would be 100 x more frustrating for me.

JustDayToDay nailed it. I was making my own pizza and you were thinking that it was coming ready-made from a shop.

Not exactly. It wouldn't matter to me if I was making it or if it was delivered.

But MB says that it isn't what matters to me or what matters to you that counts, just what AP felt. He said he felt micro managed when she asked for pizza toppings.

Would it not be a selfish demand to make your spouse eat pizza toppings he/she doesn't want. And/or independent behavior to order/make pizza without consulting your spouse about his/her preferences?

People engaging in IB typically feel controlled or micromanaged when they are asked to consider someone else...so feeling controlled or micromanaged does not mean that a request was wrong...

No, he didn't. LDD brought up the pizza toppings as an example about how she felt.

She wrote - "For example, I can ask for pizza, but I can't specify when I would like it or what kind of toppings." H's comment about feeling micro-managed was about the mail and the dog.

Can we back-burner the pizza discussion for now? Does anyone have any feedback on my questions?

I'm not looking for permission, just enough information to make an informed decision.

If your question boils down to "should I do the online course", the answer is a resounding "yes". Your "3 concerns' do not make any difference to my answer, if that is the question.

Yes. You should.

1. It has a $ back guarantee.

2. They tailor it to each couple based on the marital analysis.

3. I have learned a lot just by reading every post in the private forum. If Remark would do that, I think it would be helpful.

4. The coaches are very respectful of your mental state. But they can help you make progress because they are not emotionally involved.

I'm not giving you permission. I am recommending the course to you, unreservedly. I would do so to anybody.

I must admit that I don't see a clear question in your last post, so I am taking it to be "should I do the course"? And I would always say yes. There is simply nothing like the MB programme - in terms of purpose, goals, action and measurable changes - and it seems to me that having a coach is the answer to all your problems with getting Remark to focus, listen and change.

You say "I don't want to commit to something that I'm not going to be able to follow through". Well, none of us knows if you are going to be able to follow it through, so we can't make any recommendations about that. I can only say that you are clearly interested in working on your marriage because you continue to post here, so work on it with a coach.

Exactly.

I'm asking because I've already been doing this with Dr. Harley and with Remark and on the forum for about 6 weeks since we were on the radio program, and it doesn't appear to have much impact on him for the emotional toll it takes on me. I really don't want to commit to a month more of that, much less a year.

I don't know. I have never done the online program.

You were expressing these same reservations on the radio program. You didn't believe things would change then.

I can empathize with your situation. I have been living with an autistic person for over 30 years, and I doubt I'd be able to stand being married to anybody with characteristics like that. But in all fairness, I think you can acknowledge that your husband is trying to overcome things that are very fixed in his nature. It is going to take time and loads of effort from both of you. If your marriage is ever going to make it out of this bog, you will have to pick up the rope at some point and start pulling, too. Expecting big changes while remaining totally detached is just not realistic.

All of these are things that I think you already know. I encourage you to try.

Yes. You will need to give updates on his behavior and give feedback to the coach and/or Dr. Harley. Like Mr. Eureka said, changing takes time. But it is possible.

You can't stay like this. Things will get worse because your ability to tolerate uncaring behavior diminishes and your health suffers. One thing you can learn to work on for yourself is the ability to calm yourself. You can't get to the state of intimacy and romantic love without going through the state of conflict. To tell you that it will be easy or not require your cooperation? I can't. It stinks. You can always go thru with the divorce instead.

But one cool thing about the program is that once it clicks for you both, you will always have the framework. It is a rare gift. I have 6 brothers and 5 brothers in law. And only 2 appear to have any significant understanding of respect/boundaries/extraordinary care. Others are throwing darts and living with risky marital behaviors.

You sound like you are both interested in the program. You said you weren't planning to leave for a few years. Why not try the online program to see if it helps?

Thanks for the responses. I read them earlier today and I've been contemplating them since.

To MrEureka, I CAN acknowledge that the things my H has to overcome are very fixed in his nature. I CANNOT acknowledge that he's trying to change them, though. Yes, he's jumping through a lot of hoops and putting on a good show, but for what purpose?

To illustrate, I'll reference something Remark told me, something he mentioned on the radio program as well. He said he's like a dog that you told to do a trick, and he runs through all of them trying to figure out, essentially, which trick will get him the bone, like our previous dog used to do. In her case, we trained her to do a number of tricks by using various treats. For the most part she was pretty good at them, but she seemed to have maxed out at about 6 simple tricks. If you attempted to train her anything new, she would keep randomly cycling through her core set until you finally just gave her the treat. The longer it took her to get the treat, the more frantic she got. However, she never could seem to focus on what we were trying to teach her, and her repertoire of tricks never expanded. He said that he feels like that, that he's just cycling through what he knows, trying to get what he wants, without understanding what people are trying to teach him. That's definitely how I see him as well, but what do I do with the fact that he sees himself that way? (BTW, I just presented this depiction of his point with him and he confirmed its accuracy.)

And Mark has a very unhealthy repertoire of behaviors that he uses to acquire his "treats." He uses: snake oil marketing, (empty) promises, claiming ignorance, apologizing, superficial actions (counseling, listening/reading/posting but never applying any of it), pleading, guilting, belittling, threatening, and lying. These have all worked for him in the past, but they are no longer getting him what he wants, at least not from me.

I have to ask, if a person was looking to improve himself, why would he lie to the people that were trying to help him? Why would he claim to understand POJA and be all in, take a break to go do something he knew I didn't agree with, and then come back to the forum to continue professing his commitment? Why would he claim to have eliminated AO, IB, and SD, when I had just two minutes prior told him he hadn't eliminated any and even provided recent examples as evidence? This doesn't strike me as someone looking for help in changing himself. I don't know what it is.

And I'll confirm that initially, I was trying to postpone a D until after our son was out of the house. But it has become glaringly obvious to me that this environment is no longer healthy for him. His childhood years are flying by and I'm wasting them. And it's not healthy for me either. Joyce described our efforts as "making a career" out of working on our marriage, and she's right! I want a new career!

So, I need him to leave. If he wants to do the online program, I'll agree to give it a shot after he's out of the house, with the understanding that I will remain detached until I see some changes. I don't expect to see "great" changes, but I have to see something.

I will say, if we manage to pull out of this, it will be a true testament to the effectiveness of the Harley program.

The POJA is a superb test of whether you and your spouse are committed to MB because it requires trust and radical honesty from both of you. It does not need to be about anything critical, make it something fairly small to get started. If either of you have hidden agendas, the POJA will quickly break down because nobody can stick to an agreement that was never what they really wanted.

So let the folks on the on-line programme guide you through a carefully chosen issue and see how it works out. You are not trying to trap him here, you are looking for answers. You may be surprised at your own part of the dynamic.

What I can offer you is a different perspective. Your husband reminds me of my autistic son. I'm not saying that he is autistic, but it is obvious that he thinks in ways that are very different. You describe him with a model that sounds very Pavlovian, i.e. classical conditioning, using rewards like one would go about training an animal. I suspect he is more complex than that. The problem is that he has no good interface with you. You don't understand him, and he doesn't understand you. So, since he can't figure it out, all he seems to be able to do is try to address issues symptomatically. He tries one thing, then another abandoning the first, each time asking the question "Is that enough". Not only is it maddening for you, but it will never achieve the goal of creating a good marriage.

The key is the love bank. If your marriage is ever to pull out of this nosedive, he has to find ways to make love bank deposits with you while avoiding these annoying habits that cause withdrawals. You are going to have to help him do this. Understanding how he works really isn't the key. His love bank is not the issue, your's is. I would try identifying the issues as those that are lovebusters for you and those that make love bank deposits for you. Make it crystal clear to him what you are thinking. Don't expect him to get it on his own, because he has already failed that test and is sure to continue failing in the future. I understand that you are in withdrawal and that makes this all very unnatural for you. Although it sounds very mechanical, the love bank really works in this very simple way. Building up your love bank balance is the critical need right now.

JDD, are you willing to comeback and post to us?

SugarCane, thanks for the work you've put into Remark again. I'm sorry, but I'm just not up for engaging in another forum discussion. I just want to put an end to all this and get on with a new life.

I only wanted to stop in for a minute and clarify something on Remark's thread. Back in December, several people were pushing the question, "Will you agree to stop doing anything that your wife is not enthusiastic about, including seeing your father if that is how she feels? Will you follow this program, or will you make an exception for this?" Remark never did answer the question, because the answer is "no."

Yesterday, I asked, "Would you at some point please explain to the forum people that you're not willing to give up your family? You're going at this, I believe, thinking you'll be able to have a Harley marriage AND still keep your family. I believe they would be able to correct you. You keep saying that you want a Harley marriage, but it's still coming across loud and clear that you want what you once had with me, and that will never happen again."

Yesterday's post was his response to that. Again he never stated his choice, only that he has to make one. He also minimized the very hurtful interactions he had with his siblings, only indicating that he "mentioned" something, yet in reality the series of accusatory emails they exchanged looked more like a witch-hunt. He's still painting himself out to be wonderful and me to be an unreasonable cow.

Everyone has been so generous and patient with him, but he's still just giving lip-service back. It still looks the same as always from my perspective.

Day-

I have been in the same position with my husband and his family. Gradually, as my husband's picture of marriage has changed, his ability to protect me has changed. He always felt like he was doing the "wrong" thing to take sides,but now he knows that we are joined at the hip in a 3-legged race, and whatever happens to me, happens to the both of us. I say this not to persuade you in any way, but to tell you that I wouldn't be here posting to your husband if I felt that it was impossible. Even if you divorce him, it doesn't serve any purpose for him to go on talking about a "Harley marriage" as if it is some strange, outlying exception to the norm. A happy marriage is rare because so many of us are lacking the skills and blueprint that we need to be successful. Just because we have failed in the past, doesn't mean that can't change our habits and succeed in the future. THAT is how hatchets are truly buried.

JDD, what support are you looking for, for your husband? How do you want this forum to help him?

I'm asking because you asked him to post, and I have taken a lot of time to post to him, but the above statement confuses me.

SugarCane, I don't know what you can do to help my husband. I don't know that anyone can do anything. Frankly, I asked him to post on the forum again because I just needed a break. During his hiatus from posting, I was his only target, and I just couldn't take anymore. At least the forum can spread him around to multiple posters. Plus, he's much more polite to them than to me.

Also, I've found that the people on this forum speak my mind for me so accurately that I knew I could trust them. And reading someone else say the same things I was thinking, to see them have the same negative reaction and point out the same unacceptable behaviors, helps me feel like I'm not completely crazy. This forum has been a life-line for me, even if it doesn't help to save my marriage.

During his hiatus, he started seeing a counselor that stated he didn't believe in programs like the Harley program, called it a "12-step program," told my husband to go back to attending church and bible study and to reconnect with some friends, and so he did. I pointed out that it contradicted what the forum people told him, and he said he couldn't remember anything anyone told him. 40+ pages and he couldn't remember any of it. That was it for me, I couldn't take it anymore, so I asked him to come back here. Unfortunately, even though he's posting again, he's not being honest. So while I hear you and Dr. Harley say you believe he's trying to save his marriage, I'm afraid I don't.

In what way are you his target? What does he do that you can't take any more?

I find it helpful for you to post your perspective on the issues that he posts about, and those that he leaves out. The problem, if you don't post, is that he can leave out whatever behaviours he does not want to discuss, and we are none the wiser. We can take him to task when he tries to whitewash specific incidents, but we can't say anything about the incidents of which we are unaware - like his using you as a "target", and his claim not to remember anything anyone told him.

I struggled with the word "target" when I wrote it. I don't know what the right word is, but basically I meant it's just me against him. He has the type of conversations with me that he has on the forum (excuses/explanations/argumentative/etc.) except he's a lot less respectful with me, with an added bonus of blame-shifting. Plus, he gives me no credibility for any perspective I share, so either the conversations go round and round, or I just throw my hands up and give it up.

There's something terribly devaluing about him looking me in the eye and saying, "I know, I understand, it hurts when I do X," and then keep doing exactly that. It's much easier if I just don't bother to point it out anymore and let our marriage take it's natural course. There's nothing he doesn't already know, nothing I haven't already shared multitudes of times. And as far as me letting you know what he does that he consciously chooses not to tell you -- what value does that have? If he would rather save face with a bunch of anonymous internet strangers than honestly and proactively do whatever he can to save this marriage, how important can it really be to him?

I've looked through the recent posts on Remark's thread, and I wanted to share some thoughts on our situation, partly to help those that are responding to Remark, but as much to help myself, to be honest. I've thought about what to write for several days but I'm still struggling with the words. I'm afraid I'm not going to do very well so I apologize up front.

On the radio program, Dr. Harley spoke recently about wives that are in stage 3. I recognize that stage. But is there a stage 4? Because I feel like that's where I am now. I'm resigned to the situation, I'm no longer fighting the inevitable, and I'm even looking forward to some of the upcoming changes. At the same time, the road to get us here and the reality of it finally playing out has left me rather shell-shocked. Remark signed a contract on a condo last week and will be moving out the end of May, so the train I've seen coming down the track for so long has arrived at the station.

Besides the "stage 4" stuff I mentioned above, I'm struggling with a ton of anger towards him right now. Our son knows we're separating, and not surprising, it's hard on him. I knew it would be and held it together as long as I could, but that wasn't a good environment for him either. I'm angry at Remark because he couldn't get with the program (the one HE was marketing to ME!) and it put me in the position where I had to choose between the impact to my health or the impact to my son. I finally determined my son would prefer to have living parents, even if it meant they were divorced. But that doesn't lessen the impact on him in this situation.

So now, at the advice of the forum, Remark is asking me how my day was, and if he can go with me when I walk the dog, and sending me texts during the day. I appreciate that everyone means well, and that the actions would even be appreciated if I was complaining about him not being romantic enough. But right now, it's the last thing in the world I want from him. With the underlying anger I'm dealing with, it takes everything I've got just to be civil to him otherwise. So I'd like to request that everyone take a different tack with him.

Besides, these aren't the things that destroyed our marriage. It was his lying, independent behavior, and prioritizing his family over me, along with his disrespectful, contemptuous attitude towards me in day-to-day life. Even last week, he made two references to me trying to control him, in response to something I did which didn't even include him. In another recent radio program, Dr. Harley talked about the approach-avoidance conflict regarding a man that had worked through recovering from his wife's affair, only to question if he really even wanted to save the marriage afterall. I feel like this could easily apply to my husband. Right now, he's acting like he likes me, but when we're engaged with each other to any extent, he seems to carry such disdain for me.

My point is that I don't believe anything has been corrected with these bigger issues. And while I believe very much in the concept of "teach a man to fish...," I feel like the recent posts have been a lot of "give a man a fish." He's always been good about the superficial aspects of a relationship, especially if you give him a list and don't expect him to put any thought into it. Meanwhile, the important/significant issues are ignored. But without a solid foundation to our marriage, it's like building a house on sand. The first strong wave will topple it.

No.

What a helpful, thoughtful post, Day. Thank you so much for taking the time to give us feedback.

I won't be able to respond much tonight because of UA time, but I wanted to let you know that I appreciate you sharing your perspective with us.

I'll just leave you with something to muse about:

I believe that Marriage Builders does teach a man to fish. But it also gives him the tools to do it. And sometimes the posters do actually give the fish.

So, If a man learns to fish, does it really matter which method he learns by? Mimicry and Instruction or Trial and Error... One of those will ensure that he learns proper fishing form as long as the trainer is modeling properly. The trial and error method might work for some, but it doesn't seem to have worked for your husband.

Can you be a little more specific? What tack do you want us to take?

Once again, Day, thank you for your input. I would love to have a reply, but I understand if you just can't. Big hugs to you and prayers for healing.

I don't have a tack that I want you to take. If I knew what would work, I would have taken it myself long ago. But I'm definitely not up for the level of interaction with him that you're suggesting. I feel like I'm having a conversation with old Aunt Ethel, and she's suggesting that I "just go have tea with him a few times. He can be such pleasant company, can't he? Eventually it won't matter that he's a werewolf. Afterall, he isn't like that ALL the time, right? Only once in a while. And besides, he isn't one right now, so nevermind that he tears you to shreds occasionally. Stop focusing on that and go have tea!"

Dr. Harley suggested TO HIM that he needs to eliminate his LB's before he attempts to make any deposits. I've heard him say in general that as long as there are still LB's, a person won't make any progress with making deposits, so I feel like the advice Remark is getting is contrary to Dr. Harley's. Dr. Harley has also referred to Remark as a Dr. Jekyl/Mr. Hyde, which I've stated many times before. Well Mr. Hyde is still very much alive and well. He comes out when I'm his focus or the topic of discussion. He used to come out in his posts on his thread a few months ago, but you've squashed his including comments about me in his posts recently, so I doubt you'll be seeing him much anymore. Unfortunately, I will though, in person. You're working on changing the behavior of 'Dr. Jekyl,' but Mr. Hyde is being completely ignored.

I'm glad that this approach worked with you and Prisca. But I don't feel safe with him and until I do, I'm going to stay as far away from him as I can. I feel what you're doing is like pushing an athlete to play on an injury. Rather than take some time off and give the injury time to heal, you keep pushing the athlete to play on it. Instead, you're risking damaging it further, to the point where it may never heal properly, and with Mr. Hyde in the game, there WILL be injuries.

DidntQuit, thank you for your time and your encouraging words. It's always good to hear a success story. The incident you described regarding your husband defending you makes my heart flip. I understand your reaction to it, truly I do!

I've read through both your posts and wanted to reply at least briefly. While I understand your points and appreciate the progress you've made with your H, it seems so distant from where we are. Remark's defensiveness is still rampant, even if he's learned to bite his tongue. I don't believe someone will embrace new attitudes/behaviors as long as they're still defending their old ones, albeit silently.

I have one question for you, in response to your statement that "the past needs to stay in the past." What determines that something is "in the past?" If he did something just yesterday, Remark will say it's in the past. Also, he has demonstrated for 20 years that he is comfortable with lying to me in order to get what he wants. I understand that the individual incidents are in the past, but his (word?) toward it that caused him to choose that option in the first place is simply part of him. Like the fact that he enjoys softball. Even though he hasn't played softball for 6 months, his (word?) toward it is still very much in the present.

Perhaps you can be more specific on his lovebusters?

Markos was a rager. He scared me, and I did not feel safe with him either. This program didn't work for us just because we were some special, easy case.

JDtD, can you give us some examples of recent Mr. Hyde behavior?

Also, is he attempting to educate you on the Marriage Builders program at all? I particularly remember that Dr. Harley told him to NOT do that, and I'm particularly interested in if he is following that instruction or not. That was one of the major mistakes I made with Prisca, and I am probably lucky to be alive at this point!

Does either word seem to fit into the blanks above?


So, to summarize:

1. You have seen little progress, and success seems so distant, if not impossible.

2. Defensiveness is one of his most common lovebusters. Even if he doesn't verbalize it, his attitude reflects
a) disdain or disrespectful judgment of your complaints and
b) unwillingness to accommodate your feelings.

3. For 20 yrs. he has lovebusted with habitual dishonesty to accommodate his IB and you now you can't trust him. This selfish instinct worries you, because he didn't protect you from it. You see that attitude from him in the present, so you consider it a present problem.


Day,Is this summary accurate?

DQ, I'll get back to your post in just a minute, but I needed to post something at Remark's request. It's been a topic of discussion for a long time and I'd like to put it to bed.

We had some more discussion about IB and Remark was trying to tell me how MY activity of co-ed volleyball was worse than his activity of co-ed softball. I asked him to explain how and he told me because he connected to his through work or through his daughters and I connected to mine though meetup.com. That's the part that he told me to make sure that I was clear about, that I found mine through "a meet-up site." I've tried to explain to him that the site is a means to connect groups of people that share a similar interest in an activity (again, meetup.com), that it's not a dating site. To my knowledge, he hasn't spent any time investigating it, or even logging into the site, but continues his judgmental predisposition that my activity is worse because of my discovery source. While I'm sure there are singles groups on the site, there's also old lady crochet groups. It covers all sorts of groups and activities, including groups that play softball like him. I used it to find a group that played recreational sand volleyball. Regardless, in the end, we were both playing co-ed sports, but to him, it's measurably different.

I asked what he was wanting from the site and he couldn't or wouldn't say, so I guess do whatever you want with this information. But it was important to Remark I tell you this, though I can't say why he opted out of posting it himself.

You're on the right track, but they're not quite right. Both 'instinct' and 'habit' in my mind indicate that it's something done without thought or premeditation. With Remark, there's a definite conscious aspect to it. Regarding the incident with the toilet back in December, he told Dr. Harley that before he did it he had concluded, "She'll be mad, but she won't divorce me over this."

Backing up a bit...

Just last night, he blamed me for his struggle with his perception of IB related to his church attendance and bible study group. He's very clearly still not on board. I tried referencing the discussion you had with him late November/early December, but he couldn't remember it. He mentioned that after he moves out at the end of the month, he'll be able to resume those activities. I asked if he was giving up reconciling and he said he wasn't, and thought he could still achieve that while resuming those activities. I could be wrong but that didn't sound right to me.

The blame was related to his claim that he initially gave up church and bible study because he remembers always having conflict with me about it. The truth is that "always" is only about 3 years, since I stopped attending with him, and the "conflict" was his own internal struggle because he felt awkward going alone and wanted me to go with him. I never actually voiced a word of complaint about it, but got blamed for 20 years of conflict.

Yes, he is. Which wouldn't be so bad if he was actually following it himself, but he's not.

I don't feel physically unsafe, but mentally and emotionally. Dr. Harley refers to the need to make a conversation "safe." Ours is not.

As an example, Remark initiated a discussion this morning about a decision regarding our son, as to whether to let him do something or not based upon some behavior issues back in January. I spent 45 minutes in a discussion with him unable to glean his position/perspective on the matter. If I asked a question phrased, "What do you..?," he would answer, "Well, I don't...." I asked him specifically, "Are you saying you feel he should or should NOT be able to?" to which he replied that he wasn't saying either. Finally, I got too frustrated and left the conversation. As I left, I pointed out that the forum has given him specific instructions on how to do POJA, (that he should write them down and follow them exactly in order) and that he wasn't doing it.

A little later, he started the conversation again, but still wasn't following the steps of POJA. I would have thought he would have chased his notes/cheatsheet, but he didn't. The conversation continued in the same manner, riddled with ignored questions, defensiveness, and explanations like he does in his posts. The most offensive aspect of our conversations is the inserted adjectives. He can take an innocuous fact and restate it with inserted adjectives to make himself look good and me look bad. As an example, he referenced Marcos' discussion back in December regarding his church/bible study attendance as "giving him flack." Perhaps Marcos wouldn't be offended by that, but it's not at all the word I would have used to describe Marcos' assistance.

To clarify my previous post, Remark saw nothing wrong with his activity and did it for several years, even against my voiced complaints. But as soon as I started mine, he saw it as completely inappropriate (affair-like,) because of the manner in which I connected to it. I guess he wanted me to post because he wanted you to explain this to me, since I don't agree with him.

Thanks for post Day...I get it. Will post tomorrow.

In the meantime here's something to try.

When your husband turns a discussion into an argument of comparison or fairness kindly ask if you can stay focused on the current issue without bringing in related topics. If he continues to compare then stop the discussion until his tone is pleasant instead of argumentative or debative. SMILE and say that you would be happy to talk about it when his tone feels pleasant again.

DQ, I gave this a shot. Yesterday, Remark and I tried to discuss yesterday's radio program. As he would commit love busters, I would ask him to stop the love buster. When he tried to change topics, I asked him to keep it on topic. When he wasn't giving me eye contact, I asked him to look at me while we were talking. When he responded to my question with a question of his own, I asked him to address mine first and then I would address his. I did similar with his defensiveness, his explanations, apologies, and distracting himself with his computer. I did pretty well, short of the smile perhaps, but then I've been doing this for a while so I've had some practice already. After about the 7th LB, he got angry at me. And though that sounds bad, it was good in a way.

I've felt for some time like he was figuratively "holding his stomach in" to try to look good and get by without actually implementing any changes. If only he could sell everyone on his commitment, then he wouldn't actually have to do anything else. And I've heard his words so many times, to me and on the forum, that they sound like script to me. Well last night when he got angry, he let his stomach out. The rant that occurred at that moment was the most honest, genuine words I've heard come out of his mouth in a very long time. There were no long pauses while he "formulated his response," no partial sentences, no contradiction with the prior sentence or back-tracking. It was clear, instantaneous, and real.

In summary, he complained that there are too many rules, and that he'll never be able to remember them all. He said (as he's said before) that he doesn't think he'll ever be able to jump high enough to make me happy. This wasn't said with concern or humility, but with glaring contempt for me, as if it's my fault. As if he expects me to drop my complaints and just be happy with him the way he is. Nevermind that the people on the forum had the same complaints that I do, or that the guidance he's been getting is straight-on Harley principles, even from Dr. Harley himself. It's MY fault, apparently, because expecting him to be able to have a healthy, respectful, productive interaction is expecting him to "jump" too high.

So while I sit here and type this with my stomach in knots, he's already in bed, and I'm having another one of those epiphany moments where I ask myself what the heck am I doing?!?! I've let myself get sucked back in and I'm making myself sick over this again, dealing with the same issues that he has supposedly been working on for 6 months with no evidence of change, and wasting away the only life I have, hunting desperately for the forest when the trees are right in front of me.

I think the Harley program is fantastic, and the people on the forum are the BEST! But it isn't working for us and I need to let it go. I need to live, to spend time with my son before he grows up, to get outside and enjoy the weather, to find the happiness I once had. So I need to sign off. Remark may still utilize this thread, but honestly, I can't imagine what else there is to say that hasn't already been said.

Thanks, to everyone.

I don't really understand why this happened at all.

You were discussing the radio show. That sounds like a bad idea to me, at this stage. Why not simply (both) listen to it?

I suspect that discussing it turns into your trying to see if Remark "gets" it; you test whether he accepts and understands Dr H's advice, and also, if he can see where he has been going wrong, and is still going wrong, with his own behaviour. When he doesn't accept the advice, or its application to his own situation, you argue about that, and things go downhill. Is that anywhere near correct?

I'm not saying that NO couple should discuss the show, but I think that you and Remark probably should not. It's his job to listen and to try to learn from the show. If he is learning and accepting the advice, this should show in his behaviour over time. If his behaviour does not change, then you make a decision on your future - but stop trying to educate him, or test him.

You or he wrote some weeks ago about having a 5-hour discussion about your marriage. That sounds horrendous. I can't think why you put yourselves through that, or start a discussion that you know could very well end up being 5 hours of frustration. I think you should stop discussing MB and what is working and not working in your marriage, and both concentrate on "doing" MB.

It's not working because you're not following it.

Markos WAS giving him flack. He needed it. We can do that, because we're not trying to make lovebank deposits. You cannot, though.

If it bothers you for him to use the words "giving flack," you should note that on a lovebuster form. But do not make the mistake of disrespectfully judging him for using those words (which is what you have done here).

The program does not work if you do not follow it.

Thanks for updating us, Day.

Do you know how long it has taken BOTH me and my husband to eliminate lovebusters? 3 years and counting. Finding Goodwill becomes easier and easier. Respect is regained gradually. Things start to click. Finally he is here working on it every day. Please don't judge his fakeness as lack of intent. It may seem that way but you have to start somewhere. You are not stupid for giving him a chance. You were vulnerable and got hurt. It's a good thing to give your son a chance to have an intact family.

My advice to keep things on course may have backfired. The goal is not to correct him but to let him know that things are becoming unpleasant. The smile is very important. It shows him that you have goodwill instead of laying in wait for him to mess up.

Maybe that's not the case....internet posting can be misunderstood. Hang in there Day. We are here for you. And your husband. It can get better.

Hugs and prayers to you JDD. Your story resonates with me for many reasons. Take care!!

I'm only here for a second, not to continue my thread, but I needed a place to post something -- my immeasurable thanks!

I just checked on Remark's thread to see what response he was getting regarding recent incidents. And what I read in the posts literally brought me to tears at my desk! The affirmation, empathy, understanding, and shared perspective, that *I* have indirectly received from the responses on *his* thread have provided me with more comfort and encouragement than I have *ever* gotten from Remark or anyone else, and at a time when I've needed it more than ever.

SugarCane, I already decided from your earlier posts that you're my sister-from-another-mother, and you're still batting a thousand. DidntQuit, you read like a "nicer" version of myself. And Sunnytimes, your explanation of how exhausting his communication style is, his wordy non-answers, was such a light in the darkness of my day that I had to read it three times. EVERYONE, has been so great!

I'm sorry for the seeming redundant nature of the issue. Just for clarification, this issue came up because Remark didn't POJA when, where, or what to tell his family about our separation, and opted to talk to them several weeks ago at a time when I couldn't listen to the conversation. He's been trickle-truthing the information since about what was said, and this topic came up on Sunday. While I agree the topic has been beat to death by the forum, it's still very much an elephant in the room for me, and a deal-breaker.

So while you might think your recent posts were a waste of time, they have not been. They've been an extraordinary boost to my depleted my self-esteem. The advice my H is receiving on this forum is more realistic, appropriate, and applicable than any counseling we've ever paid for. So thank you to everyone. Your advice may not save our M, but it is definitely helping us individually. THANK YOU!

(** Back to your regularly scheduled programming...)

JD2D, I'm very grateful to you for posting this, but could you just clear up a couple of things, please?

Have you said that you will not travel to see Remark's family? (A flat-out no?) I'm not asking in order to judge or criticise, but just to clarify.

And, was the email that we discussed today an attempt by you to understand and resolve the problem of their apparent dislike of you, so that the rift could be healed, and they could visit again?

Again, no criticism is intended. I just want us posters to be clear about what we are discussing. Thank you.

JD2D-

You asked Remark to post your email exchange to the forum to get our input. I need some clarification in order to help do that.

Can you answer these answer the questions below?


1. How would clarification from the siblings about their being "uncomfortable" help you to move forward?

2. Which type of help are you seeking from the forum?

-Opinions on whether you should send the emails or seek out clarification from siblings?

-Coaching for Remark?

-MB Advice about how to solve the in-law issue?


We really want to help you and Remark be able to put the family issues behind you and both move forward to a better place.

Ugh! I'm so torn! I do not want to get back into this, but I also sooo appreciate everyone's help and don't want to hinder. So hopefully I can address your questions and do a quick brain-dump, and then go dark again. I'll also continue the weekly LB lists and Remark can post those.

I well might have, even probably. At minimum, I would be willing to say it right now because Remark needs to make his decision based upon that very real possibility. I believe he's only on-board with it now because he believes it won't be like that forever.
It was an attempt to understand, period. I can't begin to say what I would have done with it because I still don't know what the answer is. It's possible the answer is that they simply don't like me and never will. What do I do with that? I honestly don't care if I ever have a relationship with them, so deciding whether or not I'd care to bother with trying to resolve it really depends upon the answer and what that would entail.

But it appears the world may never know...

Thanks Day.

Sorry I didn't see your post when I posted the questions above.

Day- I don't think that sharing that email with his family is a good idea. It won't accomplish anything positive.

Would you still be willing to answer my above questions?


P.S.-

I really do feel like I have walked in your shoes. My husband used to communicate just like yours does. It's a tough spot to be in. I wasn't as nice when I arrived here. I was fried and angry!

At this point, I don't honestly know if the siblings actually have a problem. Remark keeps bringing it up to me but never can explain "what" the problem is. I don't honestly know that they said anything, because once again Remark had the discussion without me. Or, he could still be feeding the problem and lying about not having detailed conversations with them. He obviously did so when he notified them of our separation. I thought forwarding the email discussion we had might show them that I am reasonable and considerate, and that Remark is putting very little effort into resolving anything if he can't even tell me specifically what the issue is when they supposedly just brought it up again. My FOO is SOOOOOO not like this, and I just can't stand this dysfunctional interaction. I'd much rather gut everyone and lay it all out on the table where everyone can see what everyone else is packing, and then we can ALL make an informed decision on how to move forward.

But that's just me.

At minimum, it might get Remark to shut-up about it and stop rubbing my nose in it because he wouldn't be able to BS around it anymore.

Option 4 - exactly what you did, which is what you all do so well. You point out things that he does that are wrong, things that carry no credibility when I point them out. You pick up where I left off when I just can't do it anymore.

I lost it when Remark immediately went into defense-mode after I told him to forward it to his siblings, making it all nice and safe for them, denying that he was blaming me. Sure enough, SugarCane pegged it, in detail. (I was actually disappointed that nobody noticed his very first sentence, "It has to do with her discomfort with my siblings," where he twisted the entire context of the exchange about his siblings' discomfort with me, back onto me. But I'll cut you some slack on that one. )

And Sunnytimes did an absolutely fantastic job of recognizing how unproductive his responses are (Sunny, please don't disappear!) and pointed out his non-answer verbosity and how exhausting it is for me. This is incredibly important to me because this is how our discussions with POJA go too, in which we can't even get past the first step of understanding the other person's position.

Plus, I thought the exchange was a good way for the forum to see how he actually interacts with me. He tells you he's doing what you say, but he's really not. For example, in response to my posted list of his LB's, he told you that, yes, he knew what he was supposed to do, but he failed to tell you that that's not what he did.

I hoped to be able to just take ONE THING off the table, but honestly, this issue is so much bigger than this one tiny aspect. Even if Remark says he's willing to cut ties with them, I simply don't believe him. This isn't only related to his immediate family. We've had conflict over continuing a relationship with his exBIL, who is of such low character that his own family has since disowned him, and conflict over going to his dead exFIL's funeral. When he was counseled before about how inappropriate his relationships were and that he needed to cut ties indefinitely, it lasted all of two months and he was reacting like a drug-addict needing a fix, taking it out on me. I don't think I'm up for risking that again.

I listened to the program today and I related so much to what Dr. Harley was saying about the way a woman carries herself when she's removed from her abusive husband vs. when she gets back with him. I'm such a different person when I'm not around him, dealing with this stuff. He's closing on his place next week and then he'll be out shortly thereafter. I'm so looking forward to it! What does that say about the potential for our future?

Anyway, thanks for allowing me to dump. I hope I've answered your questions adequately. I'm signing off but I'll send Remark my list of LB's at the end of the week and he can post them if he wants.

Thanks again to everyone!

Thanks so much Day! I had wanted to post something to him today, but didn't since everyone complained of too much discussion. Thanks again for clarifying so that things don't get more complicated than they need to be.

All of our perspectives may be helpful, but if they are off track, they will do nothing but make the situation worse.

OR



So which is your plan, Day? Did you guys discuss your dating other people?

Day-

Thanks for the communicating your feelings about why you wanted Remark to visit his family. Later, when I have more time, I will post about how the POJA applies to your dilemma with your husband's family. For now, I will write a follow-up to your letter which you asked Remark to post.

I know that every response you make, and every time you engage, it is very difficult for you. And your efforts are coming from a place of care for Remark and not wanting to be an obstacle. Please know that the following thoughts are coming from a place of MY CARE for you, having felt what you have felt and lived in circumstances very similar, battling through the darkness and grief of these types of issues over a period of YEARS.

We did discuss it. I did NOT say I wanted to date other people.

I did say I realize how vulnerable I am. I did say that he could date because I don't believe I will ever be able to fill the role he has in mind for his wife. I tried and failed and will never have that enthusiasm/energy again, and am not even interested in attempting to accomplish what he has demonstrated regarding his expectations.

What has he said that he expects?

That's not the context. His comment was in response to Anywife's post Friday where she talked about his "martyr-man attitude." To that, he asked how my/the forum's DEMAND that he give up his family was different than if he demanded sex from me. He's not enthusiastic, he's capitulating.


I don't see anything in him that you just mentioned. I see him changing the manner in which he interacts with the forum, but nothing in the manner in which he interacts with me. I don't see him changing habits, and I don't see a "giver." I'm curious what you're referring to.


You told him to ask me. I suspect if he had been able to adequately answer you, you wouldn't have asked him to ask me. This is my answer, I'm not sure what you were looking for from me.


I appreciate your perspective, but we're just going to have to disagree on this point.

Agreed, the details I listed were in the past. However, the behavior is still very much in the present. It's hard for me to care if I'm love-busting him when I just want out, while he's still love-busting me everyday amidst his claims of being all-in.

Admittedly, I have many triggers with his current behavior. I wouldn't know how to segregate the current behavior from the past so that the current (repeat) offense isn't compounded (re: boy who cried wolf.)

Thanks Day. Thoughtful responses.

With the little time I have right now, I will start with this:


I did ask him to VERIFY that he understood your perspective correctly before stating it to us.

More than once he has not had a clear understanding of YOUR perpective. That is part of why I have asked him to discuss in written form instead of verbal.


Why have him Reverify?

1. It helps him get into the habit of listening to you instead of assuming.

2. It gets him in the habit of repeating your perspective back to summarize and make sure that he has it right.

3. I don't want to give advice based on "she said" that has been misinterpreted by him.

Thanks for being willing to ask.

I completely get the written vs. verbal and the value it should have. Except I haven't found that to be the case with us/him. The email conversation we had a week or so ago about why his family was uncomfortable was far from productive and still riddled with LBs. And even things that he reads on the forum are twisted in his mind. In the discussion we had about Anywife's post, he indicated that he thought she was supportive of his approach, that she had a positive reaction to his post. I had him find her post and read it again to tell me what he found to be supportive. He acknowledged upon reading it again that it obviously wasn't but that he recalled it being much more encouraging. This was two days after he read it.

I'm seeing a new pattern in his responses to the forum. It's very much a "yes-man" approach. He agrees with everything and promises to do anything that anyone asks, so then he isn't accused of being argumentative or defensive or disdainful. But I really don't think he's getting it, because he's still doing all that with me. Listing the boat last week is a perfect example. I've asked him why he doesn't ask the forum before he does these things, if his excuse is that I'm unapproachable. He says he knows the forum would have told him not to, but he doesn't even think to ask them. I relate it to the Telecommunication course I just completed. I got an 'A' in the class, but I couldn't begin to answer one question about what I learned now, only two weeks later. I simply did what I needed to do to get through the class but retained nothing for day-to-day life.

I like your approach of pointing out that there's more to a post but asking him to tell you what that is rather than giving him the answer. I'd be curious to see if he could connect the dots for you between a current post and a similar discussion earlier in the thread (without pointing him directly to it.) I've had zero success with that. Unless I spell it out to him, for example, there is no similarity in his mind to the toilet incident in December and the listing of the boat last week, which are both a very obvious breach of the POJA.

Sometimes it is easy to understand why people are in withdrawal. That is because the withdrawal is a logical response to what they have been through. Such is the case here. While we want to encourage you to give it your best effort, it is not hard to appreciate your position. You are actually a very good spouse who has long lived in an untenable situation. I think that MB can turn this around with the full participation of both of you, but I can certainly understand your reluctance. I wish the best for you whatever you choose to do.

Awesome questions Day. Very true!

Need to get some people out the door and then I will respond to that.

ITA!!!

((((JustDaytoDay)))


Thank you, JD2D.


I have a lot of hope for you two after he separates.

When separated, I think he will have more of a dating/pursuing mindset and will be able to win you back.

I think that when he is back to the state of being hungry for your participation in his time, he will understand better how that contrasts to the state your marriage had devolved, and will protect that condition ferociously with all of his new techniques and MB understanding.

I pray that the two of you can co-reside without further conflicts damaging your relationship until he is able to move out.

I was in your shoes for 25 years, and I see so much of my xH in Remark sometimes. The ONLY way we could have fixed our relationship was with some distance of time and him pursuing me again. He chose to make that impossible and it ended in D.

In your case, your H is willing to do that. I think you offer Remark an understanding and compassionate personality, and give him a lot to work with in return for his efforts. I think your relationship may very well survive the turning point and then thrive again.

You probably have experienced how if the LBs stop for a bit, you realize that you could continue on and make this work. We need for Remark to stop them and never pick them back up again so not only do you come to the point where you consider whether it could work but you then fall back in love with him again.

I am rooting for you, and for your marriage, JD2D.

I am not surprised at Remark�s written language is still riddled with LB. He doesn�t recognize his LB or he wouldn�t put them in writing at this point, would he?
The good thing about email is that you can print it, highlight the LBs, and pass it on to him. NO EXPLAINING. Then he can study his LBs. If he can�t figure them out, then he could either post to the forum or ask �why� it was a lovebuster.

Yes, this will happen for a while. In reference to Anywife�s post, you did a good job of thoughtfully requesting that he share with you what it was that gave him that impression.

If he is trying to educate you with Anywife�s post, then tell him that the conversation is getting unpleasant and offer something else that�s pleasant.

In kind,if you see him come away from the forum confused, (which is likely, considering all of the posters on his thread), then just ask how he would feel about recapping to double checking with that poster to make sure that he understood her words the way she meant them. If he won�t, Say that you had a different picture and drop it. Don�t educate him. Think big picture.

Another option would have been to let it go. He doesn�t want to feel stupid. It's a LB to correct our spouse. Turn it into a thoughtful request instead?

We like to solve things directly. Isn�t it annoying that it takes a village to get the point to him? That would be eliminated if he would just restate back to you what he hears from you until he gets a correct reflection. So the goal is for Remark to practice listening and understanding perspective from the source. That is a precursor to the first step of POJA, defining the problem. If he can learn to do that without LBs, so much will change for you.

So, once again, that is why I feel that he should share with you by text or email, his recap of what you have said on any subject. Then, you can agree or fill in the blanks. Once he does a good job, thank him for showing care by listening with exactness. I think it's a good idea to focus on the basics that some people take for granted. We posters can validate you all day long. But it is REMARK whose validation and listening you need.

(I will respond to your next point in a separate post.)

Yes. And in my opinion, his �yes man� approach is a great start. Now you might think that his goal by being a �yes man� is to protect his image. That may be true, but it would be disrespectful for you to say it to him. (I�m sure you won�t.) I happen to think that it is more of a first step in a positive direction and much different from when he was on the radio show or even when he started his thread.
Just because he is at step 1 does not mean that he won�t ever climb the stairs. Without a doubt, He needs to translate that courtesy to you, immediately. And yes, it will feel fake and awkward at first to BOTH of you. That is Okay! Try to have goodwill and be kind toward each other as you try new things. You have to start somewhere.



That IS an excuse.
But if you look for the truth in what he is saying, you will grow more than you ever wanted to. Lol.
I know that it doesn�t seem fair that he should �taunt and bully you, then get upset when you cry.� Dr. Harley helped me to see that I could control how I reacted, even when my husband was outright mean. He had an experience where he testified in congress, and his opposition actually spit on him! He had developed the ability to calm himself, even under those conditions. I tried to remember that story when I felt so frustrated and angry. Because even though it wasn�t okay for my husband to make excuses, I sure didn�t want to give him any.

This may be true. My husband used to say things like this all of the time. I seriously couldn�t figure out why he would say something so embarrassing and silly, and actually think that I would consider it an excuse? It would infuriate me. What was I supposed to do with that response? Duh, If you see the problem, then fix it! Right?

After talking with Dr. Harley about these types of responses from my husband, Dr. Harley, he helped me realize that I had been expecting my husband to be just like me. Well, he isn�t. And he really CAN�T stop himself sometimes because his brain was genetically formed that way.

Now, over time, and with the practice of checking in habitually, his brain has added the step of checking first, into its process. At this point, he breaches in POJA about once or twice a week. And when I say breaches, I�m talking about forgetting to check in about very small things. But blatant disregard does not really happen. If I am honest, I hold him to a much higher standard on this than he holds me. more than that, because he doesn�t NEED me to check in. He has a frame of reference for all of this now, in that he recognizes, I can complain, and he usually responds very well.
So, Day, hopefully my sharing will help you in some way accept that Remark may actually be putting more effort into this process than you realize. He is just dealing with different circumstances than you, and he has always made excuses for it. Over time, he really can develop the skill.



Perfect example! So there are two thoughts that I have about that. First- If you were to spend the rest of your life learning about Telecommunications by listening to a radio show about Telecommunications, and if you posted to a forum about Telecommunications, and maybe even took a private course about Telecommunications where your own personal coach was provided, do you think that any of what you learned would make its way into long term memory?
I would guess that it would. How LONG that would take, might be determined by how instinctive the subject was for you, right? Now if the information is incorrect, it won�t do us any good, will it? That is why MB is so cool. The rules work for any couple who learns to apply them. But few people are willing to subject themselves to such rules. That is why there are so few long term happy marriages.

Second thought is: Remark may need to have his meds changed to improve his memory. I know that we discussed this earlier in his thread and hopefully it is a work in progress. Testosterone has improved my husband�s memory and mood significantly, among other things just like estrogen helps women. It was a fight to get it, but it was worth it.

Right. Remark needs the established habit of checking ALWAYS to override the impulse to follow his �great idea, or his own own best logic of the moment.

I know how tedious it can be to spell things out and not have them be understood. However, we can�t expect our spouses to mind read or fill in the blanks. There�s a sense in which, that is setting them up to make assumptions and disrespectful judgments. Can you see how that might be true?

As an example, I look at how Dr. Harley teaches us. He doesn�t make us guess at it. He has written his books in a way that �spoon feeds�. The goal is to make it simple and clear. Yes, the application can still be tricky for all of us.

Dr. Harley teaches us that the point of building habits is to repeat a behavior the same way, over and over again until it becomes a natural instinct to us. Then the dots can be connected, once we are used to behaving how we should.

I would like to see Remark focus on building the HABITS of getting enthusiastic agreement consistently, defining a problem, and practicing a pleasant demeanor with you. But we do need your help with the first one especially. My concern with sending him to the forum to decide whether or not to do something, is that he then learns to consider the forum as his litmus test, instead of the thumbs up or down from you. It is YOUR feelings that he needs to adjust to, not ours. It is very important for him to respect your FEELINGS, even if he doesn�t understand the WHY behind them and how they connect with everything else. It will be important that you state clearly that you are either Enthusiastic, Not Enthusiastic, or Undecided, please table for later. He should DO NOTHING until and unless and until you are ENTHUSIASTIC. THAT is the litmus test for safety in your relationship, along with eliminating his lovebusters.

Now I�ll be honest. I never thought that my husband would connect the dots either. But it has happened. At this point, he is seeing the concept of �throwing me under the bus�, which is something I would complain about and get berated for �coming up with crazy ideas.� Yesterday, in an appointment, he threw me under the bus twice, and it really upset me. But guess what? Not too much. Because I was able to tell him, he listened, AND once I started telling him, he was able to see it easily plus he apologized appropriately. For me, that is awesome progress and a reasonable standard since we all make mistakes.

So back to your concern about spelling things out. Even though you might need to do that on occasion, as long as you tell him respectfully, without judging his lack of natural instinct, you will be fine. Accept that his brain is wired differently than yours, and that his willingness is the key part. Try not to compare him to others. You don�t like it when he does that. My advice to you is based upon what I have learned, but not what I was perfect in doing.


Just a reminder- Learn to WALK AWAY when he�s not being open, when it�s not clicking, or when he says something oppositional. You don�t have to explain. Resist the urge. Just say that you would like to visit the subject some other time, when you feel better about it, and leave the room. That will prompt him to think of his most recent statement. Keep submitting a list of his lovebusters to him at the end of the week. Great job on that!

Let me know if you want me to post to you about the family situation. What I can say, is that I understand where you are coming from, and I was not enthusiastic with my husband breaking ties with his family for all of the same reasons that you are not. If you want me to post more about that to you sometime, I can. But there�s a lot to think about here, and I�m not even sure that what I am saying is what you need.

So�
I know that I have posted lots and maybe too much for you to digest at this point. But hello, I�m not sure when we will see you again.

I feel for you and hope that some of this information can be helpful for you. I would also recommend that at some point, you reread your own thread for new insight. Lots of vets whom I respect, have posted good suggestions to you, but maybe you weren�t in a place to receive their help at the time. . When I came here, I had many of your same questions. I spent 24-7 reading every thread I could, and I read SAA, LB, HWSW, and listened to every radio show in the archive at the time. Even if my marriage had failed, (and will, unless we continue to follow these MB principles), I would not have regretted the time I have spent learning this program, doing the online program, and being among awesome, super smart people who give of their time and knowledge daily. But so far so good. I told my husband today, "Thank you for being a good husband to me. I never thought that you could be this way." and he said, "I never knew what this way was."


P.S.- So, just in case - I want to leave you with this to hold you over until your husband learns the way that you need to hear it...

Your husband married you for a reason. And it wasn�t just because he needed a nanny or a maid. He truly enjoyed spending time with you, he felt good being with you. He says that you are pretty and talented. You were the float to his boat or he wouldn�t have tied the knot. You are smart and caring and thoughtful and a great gardener. I hope that he can learn how to make you feel like a treasure, EVERY SINGLE DAY for the rest of your life. He just can�t imagine the future without you. Literally.

Sorry about the threadjack but I wanted to say that DidntQuit is totally amazing. I hope some of her posts to you make it to a sticky. You are getting fantastic support.

Thanks to everyone, again, for all your time and efforts. DQ, I've read your posts and really appreciate the insight. I'm not sure how applicable it is in our situation. It just seems like there's a bigger issue with us. At minimum, I think the issues are too big for me. I give you credit, I don't think I can do what you've done, at least not anymore. I'm just tired. Perhaps if we had come here earlier....

I'm putting some thoughts down just to give an update. Not sure what it will serve or how useful it can be, but here goes.

First, I've opted out of giving Remark a weekly LB list. I let him know when he does them at the time. If he wants to keep track of them, he can, but I'm not doing it for him anymore. Beyond that, everything is still pretty much the same, or worse. The condo is purchased and Remark is painting, re-carpeting, etc. Thankfully, our son is taking it all very well, even helping Remark with the prep, talking about how to make a man-cave, etc. He was my only reason for putting this off this long, ironically. Maybe I could have done it sooner...

More next....

The Sunday before last, Remark and I together compiled a brief email to his brother and sister asking for a better explanation of their claim of "discomfort." Remark received responses from both in fairly short order and forwarded them to me. We had only a brief discussion about his brother's response, in which I stated that I thought his description of me seemed rather "sterile," especially compared to Remark's description of his SIL, which included, "She's darn near perfect!" and other glowing compliments. No discussion at all was had regarding his sister's response. Thursday evening, I asked Remark if he had ever responded to his brother and sister regarding the emails we received from them. I wanted to know because he typically has contacted them without discussing it with me first, and I didn't want to get blindsided by something else. He responded that he had not and the conversation ended.

The next morning, on Friday, I had this email exchange with Remark, initiated by him:
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(Remark) As I fell asleep last night, I thought about the conversation we had re: responding to Q and C.

We sent that e-mail telling them we were going to be sharing it with the forum. We haven�t done that yet.

And, I haven�t responded to them because I�m wanting to build a protective bubble around you with regard to them. So, I haven�t communicated with them or Dad & Mom. I feel badly that when we�re together, you are uncomfortable C was uncomfortable; I feel terribly selfish as I was the only one comfortable and I put you through all that travel time, to boot. So, that�s why I haven�t communicated with them except to respond to an e-mail from H. Q had surgery on Wednesday and H informed everyone that it went well.

I haven�t talked to Dad and Mom either.

I think I should consolidate Q and C�s responses into one and explain that I�m going to focusing on you and our marriage for the indefinitely future until such time that you feel comfortable with them. I�ll mention, like I did above, how selfish I feel having been the only one truly comfortable with all of us in the same room. And, I feel I should send this as an e-mail or letter to Q, C, Dad and Mom, and the forum.

What do you think of that idea?
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(JustDaytoDay) Do you have any other thoughts on what they said in their emails?
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(Remark) I�d still like to know what they are comfortable in the same room up there, but not down here. And, why it was so hard to get them to come down here, if there is a different answer than the answer to the first part of this question ( comfortable ).

I�d like to know exactly what the palpable tension, (or whatever C�s term was) was/is. I certainly didn�t sense it.

I�d like to know if/how I�m goofy that I like to call them, but they don�t call me as much.

I�d like to know what they would do if they weren�t embraced by their spouses� family for whatever reason and how�d they, as a couple, would handle it. We know J�s sister and brother-in-law had some sort of issue with Q and J and Q didn�t associate much with them for several years.
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(JustDaytoDay) I don't have these answers for you. Are you wanting to ask them or you'd just like to know somehow otherwise?
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(Remark) I�d like to know.

I�d like to know how you might feel comfortable with them and they with you, but that is selfish on my part. I like to think you and they are concerned about that as well, for starters. Otherwise, screw it, if I�m the only one losing sleep over this.
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(JustDaytoDay) I repeat, are you wanting to ask them or you'd just like to know somehow otherwise?
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(JustDaytoDay) Oops, sorry, I missed your answer that you'd like to know, vs. asking them.

I don't believe I can help you with this in any way. I can't answer for them and I don't have the power to solve it for everyone.
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(Remark) Would I be violating my �radio silence� , from your perspective, or the forum�s perspective, if I were to have another or few conversations with them on this topic?
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(JustDaytoDay) You're not violating anything from my perspective because I don't have a 'radio silence' position. I suspect the forum would defer you to me, but you can always ask *them* directly rather than ask * me* what * they* would do.
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(Remark) OK, thanks. I�ll do then as I suggested, consolidating their positions and sending to them, with a few more questions and explanations from our end.
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(JustDaytoDay) Please do not explain anything from "my" end. Your response to them should consist of all "I" statements, expressing your (and possibly the forum's) position. I would like to see it before you send it.
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(Remark) Sure thing. Fighting a fire though now. And, I have to leave at 3:30. I�ll work on tonight.
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At 9:30 Friday evening, Remark had not yet started on the response, opting instead to spend the evening shopping online for furnishings for his condo . I told him that I was disappointed that once again he wasn't doing what he said he would do ("work on tonight"), and said that I would appreciate if he would not involve me in these stressful engagements in the first place until he's more invested in it. My personality is such that I'll ruminate on it until it's put to bed, and the ongoing stress and apprehension weighs too heavily on me.

This made him angry and he sat down with his laptop and started pounding out an email. I reiterated that I wasn't asking him to do it then, but to be sensitive in the future to not involving me in an issue until he was truly ready to address it. He continued to pound away on his keyboard. He finished about an hour later, forwarded me a copy and went to bed.

The rest of our conversation the next morning was done verbally, so I don't have a record of how it transpired, unfortunately, but somehow along the way, the email to his siblings became "my" request, somehow solicited when I had asked him if he had responded to them. He could have asked me immediately Thursday night or even Friday morning if that's what I wanted, rather than assuming, but he didn't. There was no discussion about what *I* wanted for him to be able to begin formulating a response "for me." Even the one request I made that I not be referenced was seemingly ignored as Remark still referenced me in his email 27 times, even though none of the questions he told me he wanted to ask, did. The entire second step of the POJA ("Identify the problem from the perspectives of both you and your spouse") was completely skipped, step 3 (Brainstorm solutions with abandon) consisted of Remark itemizing what he wanted to do and how, and step 4 (Choose the solution that is appealing to both of you) was Remark asking for my permission to break radio silence, while my complete lack of enthusiasm was irrelevant. Very disappointing for me, especially since I know the forum has put significant effort into instructing him on this.

This is another example of how I'm being held responsible for every unpleasantness in his life, even being charged with a request that I never made, and being held responsible for another conflict that could have easily been avoided if he had simply applied the POJA and asked me what *I* wanted instead of making wild assumptions and spending his time and energy focusing on what *he* wanted then claiming he was doing it for *me*.

At this point, I *believe* the email has gone unsent. I've let the topic drop and will make no further inquiries for fear it will be misconstrued again.

Remark and I had a brief discussion Saturday morning, which I would describe as "positive" at least in regards to form and attitude, if not function. In short, Remark acknowledged that I did a lot of changing (cooperative adjusting) when we were first married, while he never really changed much of anything (actual behavior vs. marketing.) I referenced the saying that "men marry women hoping they'll never change, while women marry men hoping they will," pointing out the irony that our situation is gender-opposite.

He reflected on this and wanted to come up with ways that I've tried to change him, and said to me, "You're trying to change me to make it so I don't enjoy going to church anymore."

This comment was made in regards to Remark's crusade to define and eliminate his IBs, which started in October when he announced that he had given up softball, church, and bible study. Softball I understood because I had clearly expressed my disapproval of it previously. But there was never any conflict/discussion about church or bible study except that he didn't like that I quit attending with him, so I was quite surprised by his conclusion. I expressed my surprise and questioned his decision. Since then, he has waffled back and forth on his position, discussing it on the forum, attending sometimes and not others, remaining undecided. I've refused to get sucked into this debate with him as I immediately recognized it as a perfect storm, one that would ultimately leave me bloodied and bruised. I told him in no uncertain terms several times that I would never offer any further input on the topic and he would need to take ownership of the decision himself.

Apparently, even that degree of explicit non-participation doesn't exempt me from being blamed. Of course, the request for backup for the accusation yielded nothing, seemingly not even remorse for the condemnation.

He did something similar on Monday when he claimed that he had to deal with my b--ching about his golf for 20 years. When I asked for examples of the conflict we've had over his golf, the only occasion he listed was a discussion we had 20 years ago when we were doing a group book study on the HNHN/Love Busters series, when in the discussion I interpreted that, according to Dr. Harley's definition, his golf was IB. Yet he could come up with numerous examples where I have been supportive over the years, even encouraging, siting several examples where I machine-embroidered some memorabilia golf towels for him and the other players. Still, I'm accused of b--ching about it for 20 years.

While I appreciate the effort made on the forum regarding asking Remark why he fell in love with me, the daily message I get from him is that I am the bane of his existence. If he doesn't have something legitimate to rebuke me about, he'll make something up. Words about my artistic abilities or love of animals is valueless to me, especially when it's not even something he engages in with me. Sure, he "loves" that about me, as long as I keep it "over there," out of his life. Ironically, while he relates my artistic abilities to his mother's, after 21 years together, I have no idea what artistic endeavors she engaged in, whether painting, pottery, illustration, etc., because Remark never talked about it (she passed before we met.) Yet I have heard countless times in detail how she used to pack up and travel all around following behind him and his brother and father while they played softball tournaments, which of course I'm not willing to do and therefore continue to be the bane of his existence and "why can't I just be a good little wifey like his mother was?"

On Remark's thread, Anywife posted this:
I agree wholeheartedly and would describe every interaction we have as that. Ironically, I have used those exact words, that I feel like he's being deliberately obtuse. (I'm telling you, either I'm so vanilla that an idiot could speak for me, or you people on the forum are so good it's scary.)

So then here's the problem. Remark has done a bunch of testing. The testing showed that he is intelligent, and in some areas above average. He showed no weak areas, no signs of any disability, no personality disorders. He has tried various ADHD meds with no effect. So there is no clinical explanation.

At the same time, while he immediately attributed many of his problems in life to being a non-linear thinker, Remark has not even bothered to look up what that is. I asked him and he has no idea what it means or how it translates to day-to-day life, what problems it causes, what can be done to reduce the problems, etc. It has become his current "crutch" to explain away all problems and make them beyond his control and not his fault.

There is nothing in my mind or tangible that explains his complete lack of application of the Harley principles or the instructions from the people on the forum besides lack of effort (aka laziness.) For example, the POJA has 4 steps. The forum has instructed him to print them out and go through each step and write it out. That's about as simple as it gets yet he hasn't done that once. I think if you inventoried the things you've suggested to him (get a notebook, track POJA, track LBs, etc.) and compared it against the things he's actually doing, it might give you a more accurate measurement of his effort.

I have to say, I don't see the point at this time of continuing back and forth around his family's attitude. If his brother responded with a "sterile" email, that should be taken on its own terms, and not become the basis for endless discussions between the two of you.

He may not have ADHD, but he has extreme difficulty (or is extremely reluctant) to write things clearly. So I don't know why you would even want to engage in what are clearly unpleasant topics of conversation in written form.

You are wasting tremendous amounts of time and energy on his siblings. Period.

Here's the simple answer; if they ain't "comfortable" around you, too damn bad. They don't need to be around. HE needs to accept THAT. YOU need to quit trying to hold him responsible for THEIR attitudes.

If they want to be around, THEY need to suck it up, THEY need to apologize to YOU.

Your HUSBAND needs to suck it up and accept the fact that if his siblings aren't pleasant and respectful to his WIFE, then THEY ARE GONE.


Also, entirely too much time is spent on;

The past.

"Problems."

1) Nothing past can be resolved in the present. If Remark attempts to bring up some historical problem, tell him "This conversation is neither safe, nor pleasant" and change the subject. Constantly rehashing old hurts only keeps them in the present and is ONLY destructing. It serves no constructive purpose what so ever.

2) Cut the "problems" discussion down to once weekly. Set the day each week... Saturday, Sunday, Wednesday... whatever. If there are any e-mails or attempted conversations about marital problems any other day of the week... "Can we talk about this on XXXday? It is not pleasant conversation."

If in either of those situations, your husband fails to cease at your request, or fails to provide you with pleasant conversation or activity, walk away.

Draw a line in the sand; you will have a pleasant companion, or no companion.

THIS will simply never happen. Why do you think the discussion is still being had? He was told this on the forum back in November. The unconditional love he has for his siblings is like nothing I've ever witnessed. He will never be enthusiastic, only capitulate, and the resentment will grow to something unbearable for both of us.

The current problems are just repeats or continuations of past problems (his disdain for me, siblings/family, violating POJA, IB, etc.) The "pleasant companion or no companion" suggestion is already being addressed by his moving out. Do you think that our conversation is the only thing that makes his company unpleasant?

Day-

Hold Her Hand is correct.

Day-
Have you read Love Busters?

Yes, the book and the articles on the site.

Is there something more specific?

I've read HHH's post several times. I don't disagree with him, I'm not sure if there's something specific you're pointing to or just in general.

It seems like all we have anymore are problems. The advice for most couples to do UA time and make deposits doesn't seem to work for us because the UA time is still riddled with LB's even if no discussion is had. And even if I take all the discussion of our relationship off the table, ignoring any problems that are still unresolved, I still see no future for us.

I read Remark's answer to Indiegirl's question, "what is it specifically about JD2D and marriage to JD2D that you wouldn't like to lose? I don't mean the result of getting time with her - why do you want time with her? What's so great about her?"

And I read people's response to what he posted. I was shocked.

What am I missing? Am I just that far gone, that tainted with this relationship, that I can't value what other women would be thrilled to have in him? Or am I just immune to his sales pitch whereas others are not?

With the exception of affection (aka sex), everything he listed is either from prior to marriage (talking late into the night) or something that he never participated in with me anyway, or something he even criticized me for (intelligence/analytical style.)

I read what he wrote and immediately thought, "NO, thank you! BTDT!" I just don't get it. What did I miss that everyone else was so impressed by?

JDTD,

I had asked him a similar question before, because in his thread, it had not been clear why he wanted to keep the marriage. Just for a live-in nanny/cook/etc? He had not really brought out what about you as an individual was special to him. His first answer to the question had been something along the lines of "to have someone to spend my life with", which misses the mark.

To be a good husband and better person in the future, it is important that he realizes why you are so special to him and what he is about to lose. His answer sounded as if he deep-down does appreciate you as a person. He now has to put the effort in to make you feel special.

We totally understand that you do not melt automatically once he says something nice about you.

And that's my point, he still hasn't. These are simply things "about me."

Remark's response is comparable to me saying, "He's a skilled softball player, has a great golf swing and a low score, is incredibly loyal to his family, will give you the shirt off his back if you just ask, can spot an Iowa State person from across Home Depot and will chat with them for 45 minutes like they're best friends, and will announce 17 times that he's going to bed before he actually does."

Sounds good, doesn't it? It is an accurate description. Unfortunately, they're all things that I either don't care about at all or that have actually been a source of conflict for us.

I just think his first answer was more accurate, and that "somebody" could be anybody.

FWIW: I was impressed because for the first time (that I noticed) he said something specific tailored to you and it sounded like genuine appreciation for you as an individual. And I thought it was kind of tragic that if he's genuinely appreciated you all along it was such a struggle to get that from him. I wondered if he was even telling you those things and if not, would things have gone so far awry if he had been focused on and expressed what he loved about you from the beginning?

However, that doesn't mean I thought that you should hear or read those words after years of frustration and you'd say "it's all good now!" and the skies would open and unicorns would slide down rainbows to graze at your feet while you did a happy dance...

But assuming it was sincere it was good to know he did have genuine individualized appreciation for you. That is a start.


Well, you are in the position to judge what he said in context. It shines a different light on it to know the list of compliments included subjects that he'd DJ'd you on over the years and things he showed no prior interest in.

Have you read Lovebusters recently? Or in the 1990's?

We are all blind to our own lovebusters at first and it seems like you could use a brush up.

It seems like you glossed over many points that I made.

IMHO, your response was a DJ of your husband and was disagreeable.

Here is how you responded to Hold Her Hand when he said to leave the family thing alone:

The discussion is still being had because YOU are engaging him and you have questions that you wanted answered as well. It takes 2 people to have a discussion. Please stop using your husband's potential future resentment as an excuse to point the finger at him.

We have asked you guys to stop all unpleasant conversation. I understand that you feel a need to try to solve problems. But what I learned the hard way, is that unless you BOTH change the way that you interact, you will just end up where your marital dynamic took you before. You BOTH need to change your behaviors. This is not JUST your husband's bad habit. It is yours too.


I posted about this a while back, and I feel like you just ignored my post.

I am impressed that Remark is showing WILLINGNESS. Willingness to post. Willingness to answer. Willingness to try to engage you, even if it isn't just right. Willingness to do the online program. Willingness to learn to follow the POJA. Willingness to respect your feelings.

But, Remark has NO idea exactly how to do all of those things to your liking. And unless you are willing to do the program with him, he will never be able to learn.

If you have any hope at all, of both of you being happy together, I suggest that you dig in and do your part too. Leave the past in the past, and show some goodwill by doing the online program. The only way that you will know if change is possible, is if you are both willing to stop arguing, bury your weapons and act like you did when you were dating, having pleasant time together.

Otherwise, why would you legally separate and not divorce?

I got the impression from JD2D's last posts that Remark acts in a way to let her know he resents not seeing his extended family. That this was why the discussion keeps coming back up.

Day- is that correct?

We need to clarify for him that he needs to stick to the plan - don't see his family, don't talk about it, etc. We need to keep him on point and focused. Hopefully it shouldn't require any more effort on our part to persuade him, so there's not a lot to say other than to remind him.

DQ, thanks again for your diligent time and effort on our behalf. Your user name fits.

Since HHH's and your suggestion, I haven't initiated any discussions with Remark about our relationship. There were a couple short ones about life in general (parenting issues, schedule, etc.), but beyond that, we haven't really interacted much. Until yesterday. The thing is, I actually LIKE not having discussions. When we don't, I find that my depression is virtually non-existent, I'm happy, I'm motivated and energetic. I find I'm able to expend my mental energy on the mundane things of life that I've neglected for so long, instead of spinning my wheels mulling over our insurmountable relationship issues. So your suggestion is not even difficult for me. But while it does make me happier, it does not draw us (Remark and me) closer. I'm simply accepting the circumstances and moving on with life.

I think the problem I have with all of your suggestions boils down to one key statement you (DQ) made: "If you have any hope at all of both of you being happy together..." Well, the bottomline line is that I don't have any hope. I have no reason to believe that anything will be any different in the future. And while you're impressed with his "willingness," it simply doesn't translate into anything in real-life. I've been listening to the sales pitch much longer than you and the forum have. There are no actions to back it up, just a LOT of statements about how he's "trying." If I had a dollar for every time...

Regardless, Remark says he DOES have hope that he can change, so I'm here to offer feedback and perspective only. I've tried to be upfront and honest with my current motives, and I'm sorry if I gave anyone the wrong impression, but I am, admittedly, not very receptive to suggestions about what *I* need to do differently. Most likely, I've already done it successfully/repeatedly in the past to no avail. Now I'm done trying until there's actual/consistent change on Remark's part. There are MANY things the forum has instructed him to do that don't require any action on my part, and he isn't doing them either.

So for information only, yesterday's very brief conversation started with Remark asking me if we were really going thru with his moving out. This struck me as very odd since the condo was already purchased, carpet removed, painting under way, some furniture delivered, etc. I said it was and asked why he asked. He said the forum told him that he should contact Dr. Harley, so I told him to go ahead. I know what Dr. Harley said and nothing has changed from my perspective and can't imagine why he would retract what he told us previously.

Then later in the day, he wanted to talk about the schedule for Father's Day. He had already told me previously that there had been discussion amongst them about the three of them (Remark, older son and younger son) boating and camping overnight, and Remark perhaps taking a day off work and including Monday. I had already said that it sounded like something they would all enjoy (younger son was already excited/talking about it) and gave him my blessing. I haven't camped in years and have no interest in it at this point, so I believe it was understood by all at the time of the discussion that I wouldn't be part of it, especially since I wasn't even included in the conversation.

Nothing new with any of this, so it was again odd to me that he would bring up a topic that was obviously concluded. He told me the forum was telling him -- something, I'm not really sure -- but said he wanted to get MY perspective, to get POJA on their Father's Day plans. I told him he already had my blessing, that I was not going, that the discussion was already had between him and me, and between him and sons. Even if I did have a problem with it, there was no way for me to address it at this point without coming out looking like the family ogre. I am, as the step-mother, the default scapegoat already.

This morning I spent a few minutes catching up on his thread. It seemed pretty clear to me what the forum was advising so I don't know why he brought these topics up to me except that he probably didn't like what the forum was advising and wanted to negotiate something different with me directly. The only other topic that was discussed was the issue of his lending out the life jackets without getting POJA, even though I was literally sitting three feet from him at the time. Though the discussion was brief, he communicated clearly (and angrily) that he feels it's absurd that he should have to talk with me about something like that first. Something big, like a car, he understands, but not something small like a life jacket.

I'm afraid that the entire format of the POJA conflicts with his long-standing, underlying issue of "feeling controlled." And since that's really the basis of the entire Harley program, I don't see what hope I should have.

Yeah - I think you are pretty far gone tbh. It's been a while since you were properly and specifically cared for and neglect numbs the heart like crazy. Whenever a wife in withdrawal hears something sweet like that, she compares the recent words to the recent actions - and if they do not match up she considers it a swindle - or a sales pitch.

I wouldn't have asked him if I didn't think he had an answer in him like that. I've seen plenty of husbands on here try to swindle us and I wouldn't put him in that category at all. I just think he's a wee bit hopeless and out of touch on the 'extraordinary care' front because he has had a belief in unconditional love.

People who believe in unconditional love only look critically at their partner before marriage. That's when they weigh and measure the person, make complaints and decide if they are 'the one'. So far, so good. However once they get married they expect to be taken as they are with little or no effort (forcing you to sacrifice a lot) and also they stop looking at their spouse's pluses and minuses - because the deal has been struck. So that's why all the good points about you he listed are from that time.

He may no longer feel that way - that he looked at you once and got the measure of you then - but he would struggle to talk about current positive experiences because of the situation you are both in now.



Yeah, this.

Look coming out of withdrawal is tough, and on the first few dates - even after lovebusters are eliminated - you are not going to like him or the dates at all.

No one expects you to pluck the warm fuzzies out of thin air.

But people have done it and it does work. IF the lovebusters are eliminated.







A wife who is love with him is so much more valuable to any man than siblings! When he first sacrificed your love for theirs, he didn't know he was doing it - he thought you would still love him anyway.

It isn't rewarding to him at all yet - but it would be if you both get there.

Hmm. On top of everything if you can sense anger and irritation from him you aren't going to feel much for him and are probably looking forward to his departure.

I think that's understandable on your part. I also think it is lamentable he doesn't see how often he shoots himself in the foot. If he had smiled and nodded to you during the discussion it would have given you 'hope' that he would start enjoying PoJA rather than capitulating as you put it.

Thanks for the response, Indie. I agree with what you posted. Not sure what's to be done about any of it though.

Another quick couple of thoughts. Remark recently posted this:
I feel like I'm playing the "telephone game" with him, and he's the person at the opposite end of a very long chain with a completely different story than what it started with.

For example, his maintaining eye contact with me has always been a problem, but not at the extreme peripheral edge like he makes it out to be. For example, on Saturday, sitting at our son's ballgame, we were discussing a few random, pleasant topics, and I had to wait for Remark to finish with his distraction of the moment (picking spackling off his leg) so I could finish my topic. It's like trying to tell someone that you "caught a fish 'this big'" when they aren't looking at you.

Another thing is the "control issue" that he says *I* told him he has. This is really crazy-making for me, because *he* told *me* that he has control issues, that he doesn't like feeling controlled, that he's a grown-up and shouldn't have to ask permission or be told what to do, but that he can't explain why he feels controlled when it's obvious to him in hindsight that I wasn't being controlling. The toilet incident comes immediately to mind.

He's doing the same thing with his current issue of father's day, where he explains his definition of "family," as if the forum hasn't been specific, as if we didn't have a fiasco at Christmas regarding his children, as if he hasn't always prioritized his children over me too, just like his siblings only moreso. Somehow, he's made it "different" and acceptable.

It seems like he detaches from reality and rewrites it in a manner that make his behaviors acceptable and makes ME be the problem. And then he ices the cake with statements like "as difficult as it will be."

His disdain for me is evident in everything he does. Yes, I will be very happy when he's gone from the house. I don't know why he's not even happier about it than I am.

Thanks for clarifying this. Very helpful.

He seems to lie very easily.

For example, when discussing the Father's Day sitch, he said HE feels miserable when you aren't there with him and his kids. And made it out as though he has always felt that way.

I didn't buy it for a second.

It's just how he feels (shrug). I see no reason to conclude he's lying about that.

JustDaytoDay,

I'm certainly not reading him that way. I remember well that when you guys spoke to Dr. Harley on the radio, he put the main burden on Remark, and told him to quit trying to educate you and straighten you out. We are pretty good at seeing past things, but it's still very helpful for you to come tell us your complaints about him, because he is like many men and has a great deal of difficulty getting it. We'll do our best to help him get it.

I don't believe that he's lying. He does miss her. He's just thinking that her perfect picture would naturally be the same as his, with wife and family all together having fun. He is ignoring her picture because it isn't real to him. It's like being color blind. You don't realize that you are color blind and that you are missing things that others see. Instead it feels like others are seeing what doesn't exist. There is a name for it. It's called mind-blindness. But Dr. Harley has bypassed this problem with a rule. Don't BEHAVE as if your spouse doesn't exist. Once you know that something doesn't work for your spouse, don't do it. Resentme t from not doing something is alwats better than resentment from moving forward acting independently.

Until Remark accepts that his wife's brain has so many magical colors that are REAL, but that he can't envision, then he will continue to be dismissive.

But this CAN change and it does start with a choice to only engage in things they BOTH feel enthusiastic about. It starts with a choice to care for his beautiful wife with all of her colors, even though he doesn't "get" them.

That means that he can't keep doing things that he thinks "should" make her happy. He might miss her, but what's worse is that he is hurting himself and her too by going without his partner.

I need to set the record straight on this Father's Day situation, please.

Remark is not going to make or break this marriage at this point if he goes on a boating/camping trip with the boys. In fact, I'm actually enthusiastic about his doing it because I know that my son would love it, and also I care for my step-son and know that he would enjoy it too.

On the other hand, Remark very well COULD destroy any chance of saving this marriage if he denies himself this opportunity of seeing his kids, especially his older son. I know how much he's stressing over the advice of the forum. In fact, more than 50% of his email to Dr. Harley yesterday was about Father's Day, even after the forum had addressed the topic thoroughly. He's already irritable just with the thought of not seeing him/them, and I can only imagine how angry and bitter he'll be after the deed is done. If history repeats itself (which I'm sure it will because he clearly isn't on-board with the forum opinion,) he'll commit so may LBs as a result that the damage will be irreparable.

There are MORE THAN ENOUGH OTHER ISSUES to deal with, things that make me not even want to be in the same room with him. It will be of no value to me whatsoever if he "stays home." In fact, I'll avoid him like the plague, probably even leave the house myself. Trust me, you don't live here, you don't know what it's like. He's disrespectful to me on a good day. Have that, times ten? No thank you! So I'm more than happy to give over a few days to his kids. Besides, it will be almost like he's moved out.

If you want something to focus on, how about the notebook. In regards to the instructions from the forum, he has never done anything more than acquire the notebook. No LB list, no EA list, nothing.

Your marriage is in crisis. This is not the time for either of you to take trips without the other.

It doesn't matter if you are enthusiastic about it, btw. It would be detrimental to your marriage for him to go off without you. It is possible to be enthusiastic about something that is detrimental to your marriage.

This is not the site where we tell Remark to do everything JustDaytoDay wants no matter what.

We will be happy to try to help both of you achieve compatibility and take care of each other so that you have a good marriage. We would love to help Remark understand how he is being disrespectful and abusive to you, and to help Remark understand that he must stop doing things that put other people ahead of you, and to help the two of you learn to have conversations and a lifestyle that you both enjoy. We would love to help the two of you learn to make win-win decisions together. We won't go along with ideas that don't bring the two of you closer together.

Exactly.

He may feel disappointed. For him to go after planning without you would be reinforcing bad behavior. And it's more bad behavior for him to act irritated about it. He can feel however he feels but he doesn't need to bring you down by behaving badly. He should be pleasant.

And thanks for letting us know about his emotional outbursts.

(((JustDaytoDay)))

I'm sorry that you are seeing on full display Remark's mindset, which isn't very nice.

He seems eager to "get it", but he's just not "getting it" yet.

Please consider, when he gets his head straightened out, just letting this whole hurtful dialog slide into the past and face the joint family activity days together with a "it's a new day today" outlook, relax, and enjoy the family time together.

Please consider giving him a chance by accepting his inclusion of you into the family weekend when he extends the offer to you.

I know you can be a pleasant companion towards him for the outings; please give him a chance to be one towards you.

Ouch.

JD2D, do you think you are "enthusiastic" about him going without you because you will be able to avoid him and his bad behavior?

Why do you say that, JDTD?

"Ouch" sounds as if something is hurtful. Was that hurtful in some way?

Why are you trying to get her to do something she doesn't want to do, Sunnytimes?

The POJA position is that if she doesn't want to do this, then they both do nothing. Remark does not see the kids on his own; she does not see them reluctantly; do nothing under POJA means DO NOTHING.

JDTD is not enthusiastic about this event. Remark should drop it. You should not be trying to persuade her to do something she doesn't want to do, for his sake, or the sake of the kids' feelings. That is sacrifice, and that is partly what got them to where they are now.

We have been urging them to POJA something else she would enjoy.

I was encouraging JD2D to participate in something she would enjoy and spend the day with everyone.

You say he doesn't hear you - how blunt are you being with him though? It's a lot to ask of a wife in withdrawal but can you spell it out to him in a short, direct way? "you know I hate it when you make plans unilaterally with your kids". However if you are getting irritability and sighs from him I can see why its hard for you to do that.

As for the long repetitive conversations - those would disappear if you felt it was safe to make to-the-point complaints. That's the beauty of MB - no need to make speeches justifying yourself. Just say no.

I know this unsafe atmosphere has hurt you a lot - but try not to attribute disrespectful motives to him. Do keep in mind he genuinely has no clue what's going on half the time or how scared you are to be more direct with him.



No the deal breaker situation is that he feels pressured to put others first and you feel pressured to let him. That is the habit that needs to be broken if the marriage is to survive. Your assertation that he will not be able to avoid lovebusters if he doesn't go is NONSENSE. He is a grown man It also shows that you do not feel safe to make complaints or insist on the 'do nothing' default of PoJA.

You both act as though the world will explode if you do nothing. His making plans with others without you is a worrying habit that should be broken. Even when you are against something, you don't want to be put first becuse then it will be YOUR fault. It isn't - be brave.

You are also directly contradicting your earlier post about his putting his kids first. It's not helpful to complain about his choice but then encourage him to go. It's a problem for you and that is OK! He is a big boy.

You are NOT obliged to spend the day with him if he does not go. He can simply miss out because it is not important. That is a perfectly fine solution until you are ready to be around him.

He needs to learn how to not lovebust you. We are not goingto say: "Well IB and making weird plans with your daughter in the role of wife is a LESSER lovebuster than being around JD2D and snapping at her. So go ahead". No, we are going to tell him he cant do ANY lovebusters. A lovebuster away from your presence is lesser in terms of pain for you, but it is still a lovebuster. and he's asking how to stop doing them.

So we told him.

Great job Indie!!
What a great way of spelling that out.

Be tough, Day. I know how difficult it is to create a boundary when the last thing you want is to be the bad guy! But Indie is so right. You both won't explode if you do nothing. Doing nothing motivates us to look for better alternatives.

If you capitulate out of frustration, it sends a very mixed message to Remark. And he gets overwhelmed. It's okay for him to be disappointed. If he starts being unpleasant, walk away for a minute before you get upset too.

I asked Remark yesterday to post an update on his thread. Apparently he didn't have a chance to last night, most likely involved with working on his condo instead. I know he got internet access set up there yesterday morning so that's no longer an excuse for his not posting. Somehow he still managed to shop online for things for the condo, so it seems that was more of an excuse than a reason anyway. Regardless, I'm not sure when or even if he'll get back to the forum, and I could sure stand to hear some perspective.

Remark has been gone from the house for about a week and a half now. He only took some basic items with him while he rehabs the condo, and of course the furniture he's already purchased for it. This past week while his older son was in the country, he took off 3 days from work and he and two sons spent every day together, plus the evenings, working on the condo. Remark and I interacted very little, only business about younger son, or if I happened to be at the house when he came by to pick up some tools. The very clear unspoken message I received was, "I don't even miss you."

On Monday, I had asked him if there was a time I could visit for a bit with older son. He said the three of them were going to go out to dinner later and said he would text me. About an hour and a half later, I hadn't heard from him yet and texted for his status. He replied, "Sorry, forgot about you." Apparently they had already gone.

I managed to tag along with them on Tuesday night. And while it was nice to catch up with my stepson, Remark's involvement/attitude was reminiscent of our Mother's Day night out. I felt like he was tolerating me at best.

Yesterday he stopped by the house for five minutes, and since younger son wasn't home, I asked him if we could talk. We touched on a number of topics.

I explained how I was feeling, and asked him if he thought I should feel like he was still working on the marriage, or if he's decided he likes being away from me and I should just file for divorce. He explained that he has just been very busy, that he wants to finish rehabbing the condo and get the place nice and comfortable like the house, and then he'd have time to relax and focus on the marriage. I asked if that approach was making him feel closer to me and he said it wasn't. I said me neither, just the opposite in fact.

I pointed out that we're both highly at risk for an affair right now, and that his admitted priority being everything other than working on the marriage felt like either he was pushing me in that direction, or that he thinks I'm so pathetic of an individual that no one would want me anyway. I told him that I've already been approached and that it's very hard to resist when all it takes for me to be attracted to someone right now is for them to have a generic conversation with me without my having to beg for eye contact. He concluded the topic by telling me to "go for it" and to drop son off at the condo if I was going out last night.

He mentioned that I had said that I would do the coaching program with him once he moved out. I asked what he was looking for from a coach that would be different than what he's getting from the forum and Dr. Harley. He said he would have weekly conversations and accountability. I pointed out that the message would be the same, that the coach would most likely have told him that, on top of Father's Day, he shouldn't spend the week with his older son either, and that he shouldn't go to see his brother (dentist) for dental work like he is planning in a couple weeks, etc. He commented that the forum's/Dr. Harley's approach to family is radical and he doesn't agree with it, though he acknowledges that the suggestion comes from people with happy marriages as a result. He said it shouldn't matter what he did on his own time since we're separated anyway. He said that if he had to choose between me and his family, he would choose his family. He told me that if he had known I was the type of person that could just cut off family relationships, he never would have married me in the first place (except that he did know that.)

He said a number of times in the conversation that he wants to be a Harley husband. I asked him to explain what that means to him because I don't see his behavior reflecting what I understand the program to be. Most of what he answered was about why he wants a Harley wife. I asked him to tell me what he's doing that the forum has told him to do. He said he couldn't remember what they told him to do, that he would have to go back and reread his thread. I was shocked by this. This is not a drill. This is the eleventh hour and we're about to crash and burn. He needs to be living the part damn near perfectly everyday if he hopes to save this marriage, and he claims he doesn't even know what that is. And instead of spending every waking moment figuring it out, he's set it all aside so he can focus on nesting his condo.

I asked him to explain how he saw us reconciling, given his lack of attention. He said that he thought that if he just got out of my space for while, that I would eventually come around. I don't know what that means and couldn't get an explanation of why that would happen all things considered. I get the impression that he thinks he's so Mr. Wonderful and I'm so pathetic that all he has to do is wait me out and I'll come running. I can't relate it to the Harley approach in any way.

I felt like the conversation was critically important. I feel like I've reached the point where the next move I make will be the point of no return. Admittedly, because of it's import to me, I kept Remark longer than he wanted to stay. He kept telling me he needed to leave, that he had work he needed to do on the condo. I said we needed to come to POJA on where we go from here, that the PoJA says we do nothing until we have enthusiastic agreement. I asked him several times what is the worst thing that would happen if it didn't get done, if he put the condo rehab on hold, and asked if it would have life-altering consequences. He acknowledged that it wouldn't, but he left shortly after anyway without any agreement, and took son with him to work on the condo. Son stayed the night and I'm guessing they'll continue working on it today.

JDTD,

I really don't know why you have these conversations at all. Not one single word of any of this should have been said.

I don't understand what that would have accomplished, other than giving me my "alone" day back. Besides, even if I didn't have the spoken words with him, the unspoken message is clear, and the reality that was expressed would still be true even if it wasn't spoken. The conversation is simply confirming/affirming.

Without any discussion, based upon this unsurprising week and the last 21 years, I would just determine on my own that we don't have the same vision for marriage and begin filing for divorce. It may not be a happy ending, but at least it would be an ending. I find this purgatorial existence miserable even without these conversations.

JDTD, would you please tell me what you thought the discussion DID accomplish?

It accomplished providing an informed (vs. assumed) understanding of each other's perspective, the same thing accomplished with guideline 2 of the PoJA.

Well, certainly that is one way of looking at it, but reading it, all I saw was that it gave you both the opportunity to love bust each other. This, for example:

"I asked him to explain how he saw us reconciling, given his lack of attention. He said that he thought that if he just got out of my space for while, that I would eventually come around. I don't know what that means and couldn't get an explanation of why that would happen all things considered. I get the impression that he thinks he's so Mr. Wonderful and I'm so pathetic that all he has to do is wait me out and I'll come running. I can't relate it to the Harley approach in any way."

I don't think he could have given you a satisfactory answer to your question. I think your phrase "given his lack of attention" was a set up for failure. I don't think his perspective, "if he just got out of my space for while, that I would eventually come around" has helped you at all, and I don't know what you could have asked that WOULD have helped you. All it seems to have done is make you feel less hopeful than before you had the conversation.

I think you should take advice from Dr Harley, of course, but before you get that advice, I wonder why you don't simply agree on a certain number of times to meet per week, and agree on what to do for those meetings, as you did when you were dating. You could try for 15 hours per week of dates, out of the home, just you and him. Family time is really for him to have with your son, either in or out of the home. Leave that to them.

Other than that, you could simply write down the love busters on a sheet and exchange sheets weekly. Do not have discussions about LBs, or about how your relationship is going. If UA time is spent doing enjoyable things, your feelings should change, over time. If Remark does not respond over time to the things you write down, such as lack of eye contact and not phoning when he said he would, you will stay separated. Perhaps you, JDTD, will decide to divorce after a time if things do not improve much.

I just can't see where the discussion helped you in the slightest. These talks you have sound like unpleasant experiences. Given that you've often had these discussions, with the result of your feeling just as frustrated as before, I should think that avoiding them would be better in future.

I would stop doing that. Leave that to us. Leave the discussion of what he posts to us, too.

This part of the discussion was positively toxic. You should never have raised this subject:

You threatened him with an affair. You should never have done that. It is not acceptable for you to say anything like that under the guise of "exploring each other's perspectives" or radical honesty, or anything else.

You correctly recognise that you are vulnerable, because of how the marriage has been for so long, and the new problem of being separated, and lack of romance from Remark. The solution to that is either to keep your boundaries high, or if you do want to do that, to get divorced as quickly as possible (or to have an affair, which nobody here will recommend).

Your words to him that he is "pushing me in that direction" or that he thinks that you are "so pathetic of an individual that no one would want me anyway", and that "I've already been approached and that it's very hard to resist when all it takes for me to be attracted to someone right now is for them to have a generic conversation with me without my having to beg for eye contact" were threats - nothing less. You were trying to manipulate him into paying you the right kind of attention - or else.

His response, to "go for it", only served to show you that he does not respond to what you want. The response made you feel worse, I suspect. It was a horrible response.

Don't have these discussions. No good comes of them.

I agree, THAT answer hasn't "helped" me. But an answer that reflected the advice he has received repeatedly from the forum and Dr. Harley WOULD have given me hope, an answer that indicated he had a plan, even for the next week, a plan beyond sitting and waiting me out. This is what the forum expects from him, it seems like I should be able to, too.
Because he said he doesn't have time until he finishes the rehab/deco of the condo.
After a time? I think the problem is that I've been at this with him a for a LONG time already. I'm trying to find a reason to postpone any longer. Even son seems perfectly fine with it and he was my holdout for years. I think I'm only doubting myself because the forum seems to see something I don't. Of course, they haven't been dealing with him as long as I have and can step away from him and go back to their own life, whereas it's my life 24/7.
That sounds like I should keep my head above the water because seeing the sharks underneath the water's surface is unpleasant. Sorry, unpleasant or not, I will always prefer knowing the truth.

I guess I'm confused by this because if the tables were turned, I would WANT Remark to say this to me. I would want to know that things were that dangerously precarious, that people were actually knocking on his door with no instigation on his part, and that he was struggling with a reason to resist, so I could do something about it and give him a reason. If I were him, claiming to want to save the marriage, I wouldn't advise him not to tell me because I've got a condo to focus on right now.

Actually, I'm fine with him saying what he said. What is wrong with honesty? There was no name-calling or angry outbursts, just honest and open sharing. I WOULD RATHER KNOW.

Since the conversation is something I chose to have and therefore there must be a reason why, my bigger interest regarding feedback is how the forum reconciles what Remark posts to his thread with what he says to me and does IRL.

Okay, I understand. I didn't realise that, so I went off on the wrong tack.

No. You don't really need to have these long, heavy, unpleasant conversations.

Per your own report the... weeek (?) you spent not having them was less stressful for you.

Remark's behavior is enough on it's own.

I'm not saying you shouldn't complain, but keep it brief and to the point, then move on.


Here's your unnecessary affirmation; your marriage is in crisis, and your husband's reaction to separation was to put tons of time, money, focus, and energy into his own comfortable little condo. That doesn't demonstrate care for you or the marriage.

Yet, we are talking about a man with a 20 year history of exactly that habit. It isn't going to correct in a week. Or a month.

Where your focus is, is keeping interactions pleasant, and making brief, to the point complaints- likely in writing, once weekly.

The ball is then in his court to make course corrections.

If at any time, he becomes unpleasant, redirect. If redirection fails, end the meeting.

You set the bar, and set it high. It's up to him to rise to meet it.

Forgetting the rightness/wrongness of the conversation for a minute, is no one interested in or concerned about the information that Remark shared in our conversation? It sounds to me like a deal-breaker to the Harley program/principles.

What I am concerned about is the amount of lovebusters flying between the two of you.

What you posted was a fight. People say stupid things while fighting, so there's really no surprises there.

Stop fighting him, JDD.

Stop fighting him.

If you think it's a deal breaker, then file for divorce. They are easy to get.

Or do the program.

Either way, stop fighting.

The forum isn't here to referee Ogre vs Ogre.

It's been a week and a half.

It takes longer than that to break old habits and create new habits.

What he said wasn't said in anger in a fight, and I'm not looking for a referee. He shared his perspective, like he would do if we were discussing something for the PoJA. In his last post, he stated, "..and her position is untenable to me long-term." He's referring to his giving up his family unless/until I'm comfortable with them. I am not his priority, he would not choose me. How do I "do the program" when I just finished a week with him ignoring (forgetting) me because of his son and condo, and has an appointment in two weeks to go visit his family for dental work? Of course, that's followed by his aging father's birthday in August. There's always something.

What is the difference between this vs. if he was refusing to give up his EA partner?

And it hasn't been a week and a half. We talked to Dr. Harley the first time more than a year ago, and he's been on the forum since November. The issue of his family has been beat to death since Thanksgiving. It isn't a lack of understanding on his part, it's a refusal to disengage.

Is he really living in a condo without a working toilet?

Did you agree with his doing these renovations as a byproduct of his moving out?

You refuse to go on dates with him but pull him in to talk and accuse him of not caring about you? It is your choice not to have UA time, but he may lose motivation to save the marriage. It's a vicious circle. He is thoughtless (out of sight out of mind). You feel frustrated. He hears your frustration and feels hopeless. You have good reason to feel forgotten. But don't expect him to react and think as you would. He won't interpret things the same way you do..

I am not defending his behavior. But I think the only way that Remark will remember you is for you to be integrated into his task list. And he find himself further away from you now. I know how difficult it can be to have your husband forget about you. But that won't change unless he can form a habit of consistent pleasant time together. Scheduled. Where else would he find the motivation to change and save the marriage? He "should" want to, but he feels beaten down. Do you treat him like you did when you were dating?

So what things are you willing to let him do to fill your love bank? Are you willing to set a schedule like Sugar suggested?

Would you consider the online program now? This way is not going to work.

It doesn't have to be in anger to be a fight.

You are fighting. You have been since you got here, and still are.

This is how you can do the program: stop fighting with him. You haven't stopped as of yet, and you continue to be disrespectful.

If what he said is a deal breaker for you, file for divorce. They are easy to get.

It's a very big difference, and to compare the two is an insult to any betrayed spouse.

An answer to this would help him greatly. If you are not willing to answer it, then I'm not sure what you want him to do.

You cannot refuse to spend time with him then be upset when he finds something else to do.

When I was separated from markos, I allowed him to date me on a regular schedule. I allowed him the chance to fill my lovebank. It worked.

Are you willing to do that?

When he moved in, it had 3 working toilets. He opted to renovate all three bathrooms at the same time and disabled them. This is not a cheap condo.
No. I originally suggested he try cleaning the carpets, he did otherwise. No more suggestions from me.
I've described the few "dates" I've had with him. Not sure what good it would do to do more of them.
The Harley program should look the same to both of us, no?
I see him little to treat him in any way but I doubt much has changed. His behavior has not so my reaction is probably similar to what it was.
I told him today that I would talk to a coach, but it's unlikely we'll get past the first week or so. Doing the PoJA makes him angry.

This is not helpful.
I AM a betrayed spouse. I find this MUCH more painful than the secretive affair he had with a woman he previously had sex with. At least then I didn't have to deal with his self-righteous condemnation of me for not going along with it.

Do you not remember my post regarding the night he took me out for Mother's Day? The night was riddled with LBs. This past week when I met with him and my step-son was the same. I can't imagine he's going to be better "behaved" if we're alone when no one is watching or helping to entertain him. What *I* want is for him to stop the LBs. If I understand Dr. Harley correctly, there's no point trying to make deposits as long as they're being overridden with LBs, so what are you looking for?

Oh, and also, I would be willing to "let" him do the 110+ pages of things suggested to him on his thread -- the things that he can't remember.

And now I'm angry at myself again because once again, I'm here all day until 11:00pm posting on the forum trying to make sense of this while Remark hasn't engaged since early this morning. And he no longer has the excuse of no internet access.

Are you willing to let him date you on a regular basis?
Are you willing to end your own lovebusters?

If not, and this current fight is too much of a deal breaker for you, then file for divorce. Is that what you are wanting to do?

If you don't want to divorce him, then you need to do your part and stop your own lovebusters. You have a very big problem with disrespect.

Remark is not the only one who has failed to follow the program. When are you going to do your part?

Remark is GOING to make mistakes on the path of recovery. When you continue to respond with lovebusters, that doesn't give him a lot of hope for recovery. When are you going to do your part?

That's because you don't want to do the program.

So far, the only message you have sent him is that this marriage is over and that there is no point in trying.

Would you like to change that?

Marriage Builders has a plan that a wife can follow to try to get her husband to change. But you haven't followed it, so why are you expecting him to change?

He has been willing to do the online program with coaching. So you are saying that you have agreed to sign up? Even though you feel hopeless?

If you did in fact agree to do a MB coaching call, I would recommend that you prepare a concise written statement of your position about the family issue and your complaint about Remark not being willing and/or being resentful of your feelings so that you save time for coaching on the call with Steve.

But you aren't him are you? PoJA is not 'I've decided this is reasonable because it's how I would feel in your shoes' PoJA is about not subjecting your spouse to things that would make them unhappy. Being lectured for a long time over his shortcomings makes him unhappy and demotivated to try.

Even if he were the only person in the world to think so, you should respect that and deliver complaints more swiftly and cheerfully. But he isn't. Long relationship talks are discouraged in MB because they aren't enjoyable to hardly anybody. Particularly men. Also, they are doomed to failure. If you are talking a lot it's because you believe your perspective is the wisest and best.

It also means you don't trust your spouse to go away and think about it, you need instant reassurance on the spot. Keeping him there reluctantly until he hears and agrees with your perspective is a fight, because it's a selfish demand.

He's being pretty irritating but you aren't helping matters. You would have gotten your point over far more clearly if you had talked less and not asked for responses. You could have said you were unhappy with his attentiveness level and would appreciate his posting for advice. End of. No need to twist his arm until he cries uncle.

As for the potential A, you did right to inform him of an advance and of any temptation but I truly hope you reassured him you had cut off all avenues of contact regardless of what he does with your marriage?

ANYTHING less is a threat and a selfish demand.

It's not his neglect that will cause an affair, but your boundaries.

Quick reference....
Thank you, Indie. Succinct, to the point, and 100% my thoughts exactly.

I think the coaching call (which I agreed to do) would be better than the online program. I believe the family issue IS going to be the hill that Remark dies on. He simply does not agree.

I agree with you, but REMARK didn't tell me that sharing that information with him was an LB for him. You can only do what you know until you know differently. I'll ask Remark if he'd like me to refrain from sharing that information with him in the future. BTW, I used to do what you suggested, delivered my complaints short and sweet, even made a joke out of it when I said it. Do you get the impression that Remark responds to subtlety?
I absolutely, positively do not trust him to go away and think about it. He doesn't. He often forgets the point/question during the three minutes I'm waiting for him to "formulate a response."
I did do this on Friday with my complaint that he comes into my house now and leaves it in disarray. I mentioned the table setting as an example. I didn't itemize the mess he left in the basement when he took the tv off the wall, or the doors to the house left wide open such that the air conditioning had left the building and the house felt like a sauna. Just short and sweet. In response, I feel like he mocked my complaint when he referenced it on his thread ("I committed an LB of leaving a place mat out of place on her kitchen table. She mentioned that, (an LB)") again trying to point out what an unreasonable cow I am.
Agreed. Boundaries take personal resolve and commitment, which admittedly mine are weakening terribly. I was expressing my own personal fear. I've considered D'ing for that reason alone, and it's not off the table.

When he demonstrates that he is capable of doing his part. I've done plan A numerous times. It doesn't change anything with him. He needs to show me that he's capable. It's unfortunate he didn't take the opportunity to do his part when it would have been easier for him. Like it's easier to lose 10 pounds than 50? But this is where we are.

Quick question. Are posters "fighting" with Remark on his thread?

The program doesn't work that way.
We're not talking Plan A here. We're talking the basics of not abusing your spouse.

When your spouse breaks a rule, that doesn't give you permission to also break rules.

If you are not willing to stop the disrespectful judgements, then Remark really has no reason to continue in this marriage with you.

I looked through the recent posts, what disrespectful judgment(s) are you talking about?

Btw, Prisca, I wanted to thank you for your referencing your posts with Marcos some time back. It was interesting to see how Marcos responded in your interactions. Something about you throwing bags of lettuce and yelling in the store and storming out, and Marcos immediately realizing that he messed up. Perhaps I have it wrong but that's how I remember it.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your path with others.

That's the one!

Posted to your thread on 11/26/14

I didn't go looking for it but it's as I remember it. And I do recall it occasionally, even just recently, and just wanted to say thanks.

Giving thanks is good. I was just clarifying that the story was posted by Melody. I think that you would be surprised at some things if you looked over the first few pages of your thread. Lol.

Day, I want to compliment you on being straightforward with Remark about your feelings about his family. It is tough to own your feelings and be clear. It is also good that Remark is being clear, even if it means getting flack from us. Finally there is admission of perspectives. The conflict is what it is.

Congratulations to you both for coming to the agreement to talk with Steve. I hope that it will be helpful to you both. Are you going to write a summary of your perspective for him?

D'oh!! Even after re-reading it, I didn't notice that it was MelodyLane! I had it cross-wired in my head that it was Prisca and Marcos. Well then thanks to MelodyLane.
Was I not clear before? I feel like I must sound like a broken record. It's heartbreaking to think I wasn't being clear.
I would have agreed to a counseling session with Steve long ago. We've already engaged with Willard and I don't see it as much different. I wasn't interested in doing the on-line program.

I'll write a summary if it comes to that, but I'm waiting to see how Remark responds to the recent posts on his thread. I'm certain Steve Harley is going to say the same thing the forum has said for 6-7 months, the same thing Willard said. Remark may just decide to save the money and throw in the towel. I know how he feels, he's told me for years, in both word and deed. But sure, I'll write a summary and join in on the call.

Btw, he's not posting tonight -- not because he doesn't have internet access -- but because an old college friend was in town and he met up with him for a few hours. Nero's fiddle, once again.

If posters are fighting with Remark, it's irrelevant.

We aren't married to him, have to live with him, and could care less about filling his Love Bank.

It doesn't matter at this point. Just move forward.

Day-
Please just talk with Steve. Sometimes hearing things a different way can cause it to sink in. I know someone personally who he helped.

And if I were you, I would just stop reading Remark's posts. It tempts you to be judgmental/disrespectful of Remark.

As for the online program.... you could learn a lot. But I think that your talk with Steve Harley might help you both to choose a path.

Yes. And I took your question to insinuate that posters were fighting with you and you thought that they should have been fighting with him instead. If that was your insinuation, then please stop deflecting and start paying attention to the help/correction you are receiving. You need to stop lovebusting too, Day.

If it wasn't, I would still suggest that you stop paying attention to his thread and reread your own.

If your spouse is not enthusiastic and if the conversation is not pleasant, safe and cheerful, it's a lovebuster. It's your responsibility to recognize this and to respond to any cues that your spouse is uncomfortable.

You knew you were pursuing your own goals at the cost of his discomfort.

It would however be silly to be 'subtle'. Being direct and to the point does not mean being unpleasant. Saying 'it bothers me when you...' is not subtle, nor does it take hours.

Mocking someone's ability to respond to subtlety is even sillier. You could have said ' I don't want to be too subtle' which is a way of asking for clarification about your complaint style but instead you chose to be defensive and made a disrespectful judgement about Rs abilities. How does that do you any favours?

I do agree with you he doesn't have the best record in the world at responding to complaints. But how does degrading your own complaints style into SDs and DJs help?

I'm not saying he will respond to you or that you should trust him to do so. I'm saying that you have to give him the opportunity to do so without standing over him forcing him to parrot back your complaints. It's futile, because if he doesn't do it, you're unhappy and if he does....It's only parroting. It's set up for failure.

If you want your husband to, say, include you on the bank account and provide you with financial support you don't do it with a gun. You ask him to do so, and if he doesn't do it - he doesn't do it.

That's where you avoid a selfish demand. Maybe a respectful complaints will NOT work - but that's the point. They are able to refuse.

You need him to go away and think about your complaints and respond willingly on his own. Maybe he will and maybe he won't, but enforced on the spot agreement and compliance is worth nothing to you.

There's no love bank to consider, nor any need to share perspective equally. He's here to learn an absolute set of rules. So we won't be speaking carefully and considerately to him, no. If we were to phrase things in this way in a romantic relationship it would hurt horribly.

[/quote]Agreed. Boundaries take personal resolve and commitment, which admittedly mine are weakening terribly. I was expressing my own personal fear. I've considered D'ing for that reason alone, and it's not off the table.[/quote]

No they don't. They are like fences, they just need to be there. The only person who can do that is you and you need to detail here how you will do it.

Your boundaries have next to nothing to do with how you feel. I say that as someone who had watertight boundaries while my h was having an emotional and physical affair with my best friend and calling me a liar for telling people. I had NO personal resolve or commitment, I was on the floor and basically incoherent.

I had no intention of either recovering my marriage or becoming someone's bargain basement deal because the price of getting my attention could have seen me lowballed.

I did not have male friends, acquainces nor did I go places where men could mingle with me.

You have boundaries by what you do, not how you feel.

I think that this question is a bit underhand. It is an "innocent' query that is in fact trying to make a point, and that is that posters on Remark's thread are doing exactly what Prisca accused you of doing. When you questioned Remark about his attitudes to the family, and working on the condo etc, and pointed out how marginalised you felt by his behaviour, you were accused of fighting, and yet posters are saying the same things to Remark. Are they fighting? If so, what makes their fighting okay, and yours not? Isn't there some hypocrisy going on here, and in fact, aren't you being ganged up on and bullied, when you did not do anything wrong the other night? (It can't be wrong, if posters here can do the same thing to Remark.)

I think that's your point.

It DOES matter because it helps me to understand what the posts are referring to when I'm told that I'm fighting with him. I don't feel like I'm fighting. Our conversations look very much like his thread. If that's fighting, too, fine, I get it. But then I'd like to know what the alternative is. Obviously there's some reason why the forum is interacting with him in the manner that they are. If "it" (discussion? information sharing? explanation? clarification?) could be done differently, successfully, I'd like to see it, especially for those times when he isn't engaging with the forum and he/I have an issue.

I should talk with Steve because there's something about this family issue that hasn't sunk in for me?
I don't have the book, Remark has it with him, but I just spent a few minutes looking up DJ's on the site. It reads, "In the final analysis, disrespectful judgments represent an effort to force our spouses to give us what we want in marriage." If you had indicated that the entire paragraph was a disrespectful judgment, I would understand because I want him to stop focusing on everything else and either address the marriage or agree it's over. Why is only the last few words the DJ? And if it really is the entire paragraph, should I not have posted it either?

Ok I'm going to take a stab at this. It seems like you are trying to get Remark to agree with you over the past and/or your point of view. He will not. This is what needs to happen on your end. Make a list of fun activities that you would like to do and tell him to pick one. When you are out relationship talk is off the table. Period. His family is off the table for conversation. Period. Find a list of fun questions on the internet. I've tried to post some on the forum before and they get deleted, but just google it. They are things like if you could go anywhere in the world, where would you go? Then LISTEN to each other and ask questions to draw each other out about that topic. You need to do this at least 4 times a week. In addition to the fun questions you need to do something you both enjoy like Bowling or hiking or sailing or whatever fun activity you can both agree on.

If he Lb's, which will be much harder if you are just keeping it fun and light, just make a note of it and write it down for later.

Endless discussions of all the things he is doing wrong and how he will never change won't help things to change. You have to let go of it. Heck, to be honest, I would have no interest in spending time with you either. I'm not sure why he does when you are so incredibly negative ALL THE TIME. As the posters have said, when he commits a love buster you say this hurt me in a calm voice, then you put a smile on your face and continue to discuss pleasant things.

No, it wasn't, but I could see how it could be interpreted that way. Obviously I have my way of interacting with him, but I've watched other people interact with him for years (counselors, pastors, friends) and tried to learn a better way. With them, they either wash their hands and step away pretty quickly, or it lands here, looking like the interaction on his thread. Why? If someone on his thread is able to demonstrate an alternative that is successful, the words/format will become my bible.

Perhaps I'll witness that with Steve.

This, too, was an underhanded way of making a criticism of Prisca and others who criticised you.

You wrongly attributed that story to Prisca, which you now want to brush off with "doh", but there was a pretty nasty message that you were trying to convey when you thought that this was her story.

Prisca was as "done" with her marriage as you are with yours. Prisca was so withdrawn that she wanted nothing to do with markos. (She has written about her feelings on various threads, and I won't reiterate them here.) Yet markos wanted the marriage so badly that (as you mis-remembered the story), even when Prisca had an angry outburst and threw something at markos (which is, in fact, not just angry but physically violent), markos did the right thing and took the message that he had screwed up - and backed down. And if this was markos and Prisca's story (which it wasn't), then markos must have kept going through the storm of this unacceptable behaviour, and here they are today - QED; what worked, worked.

I think that the point you were trying to make is that this has now become a funny story on MB, and that nobody gives Prisca a dressing down for it. She is given a pass on this forum for her bad behaviour, because she was so badly hurt in her marriage, and markos was such a (bleep - choose your word). Prisca has been given favourable treatment here, and yet here she is today, laying into you for much more restrained "bad behaviour" (you didn't yell or physically attack Remark) and acting like she has some special insight into how to behave in the face of a cruel husband - when in fact, when she was in your shoes, she behaved...abusively.

You are trying to point out Prisca's hypocrisy and short memory, just as you were trying to point out the hypocrisy of the forum in operating double standards about "fighting".

And when DQ pointed out that the lettuce incident was in fact MelodyLane's story, you were able to take the focus off why you asked about it, by saying "doh". In other words, "silly me; I made a mistake. So that story isn't relevant here. Let's move on."

But what is relevant about that story is that you were using it to fight with us, as you have been doing on this thread whenever it is pointed out that your behaviour is harming your marriage.

Quite understandably, you are happy when someone like me, or indie as she did yesterday, gives an interpretation of Remark's behaviour that illuminates the horrible implications of what he says and does, or fails to say and do. When we give him a good slapping, and dress him down, you get the satisfaction that you came to the forum to receive. He is wrong, and you are suffering - that is confirmed and demonstrated by posts that support your point of view. And while Remark has never, throughout the marriage, accepted your interpretations of his actions, and has in fact belittled them, he has received a shock when he has heard those same interpretations from others - that he has not been a reasonable husband. In fact, he's been an ogre.

But what you do not like (again, quite understandably), is when you post to get support for your point of view, and are instead told that YOU did, or are doing, something that was harmful to the marriage. That is what I did the other night when I posted that the conversation should not have taken place - I, your "sister from another mother" who previously had such empathy with you. You didn't come here to be told that you did something harmful. You have endured 20 years of hurt. You should be given a pass, like Prisca is given over the lettuce incident (as you wrongly thought).

The thing is that I, and possibly others, take it that you are posting here, and asking for help from Dr Harley (and, soon, Steve Harley) because you want to give Remark and the marriage one last chance. It is a heck of an effort for you to drag yourself up to do that, but you are posting here, and continually pushing Remark to post here, so that is what we assume - that you are working in good faith with us.

But when I see that you refuse to listen to our advice about your own actions - such as my advice to schedule UA dates with Remark, to fill in the LB sheets, and not to have horrible talks about his failings, and when I see you actually fighting with the posters here (belittling our points, and passive-aggressively pointing out what hypocrites some of us are), I begin to doubt that you are genuinely asking for our help with building your marriage. I wonder whether you know that you are never going to take Remark back, and I wonder whether you are looking for validation, while you already know the outcome.

I have no problem if you have decided to divorce, and if you know that you will never accept Remark back. I think you have endured enough to make that call, and I stand by every word of "interpretation" I made, that you felt was supportive to you. I don't think you are obliged to work on your marriage any longer because you have a son, and I think you have ample justification for calling it a day. I just wish that, if that is what you have indeed decided (as your actions show to me), that you would be honest about that.

\

Yep, that is the exact idea I get. Remark has no chance at all. I think she needs to be honest and just say I don't want to work and get a divorce. She seems unwilling to REALLY try. She is just looking for an excuse. Be honest.

That wasn't what I recalled from the story at all, and my focus actually was on Mel's H's response. I could care less about the yelling or throwing lettuce. I was moved by the fact Mel's H responded in a manner that showed that he "got it" and immediately changed his response. It's not that he was perfect from then on out. It's not that he never did it again. But at least AT THAT MOMENT, he did the right thing. I don't get that from Remark. If I tell him, "That really hurt my feelings," I get silence, or a smirk, defensiveness, or criticized for feeling that way. Her story simply gave me an example of a healthy form of interaction. It was a beam of light on a cloudy day. Not a solution, not my life, just a pleasant recollection.

ETA: Funny, when I remembered it yesterday and posted the thanks, it made me happy. But when I just typed it in detail, it made me cry, I think because we're so far from it that it brought on another wave of hopelessness.

This is the crux of the misunderstanding really. You CANNOT do this. Cannot watch how teachers, counsellors, pastors advise him and copy them.

It's disrespectful to try to teach our spouses anything. If he goes to someone for a lecture, great, but don't allow the lectures into your marriage. He doesn't need to be in love with these people, it's ok for them to teach. It's not ok for you.

A big part of the problem is that you think it's your job to express yourself in such a way that he finally gets it. You think the definition of success is a response from him. This puts you under intolerable pressure because we cannot control others, we can only control ourselves.

The definition of success for you would be to let go entirely of seeking an 'Aha!' response to your lecture. Go get a pedicure. Give Remark the time, space and freedom to approach you with DEEDS not words, fun not lectures, and of his own volition. If he never does, you'll be ok. I honestly think he wants to but he can't do it under the fire of confrontation.

The serenity prayer is applicable here: accept the things we cannot change. Change the things we cannot accept.

This. This. This.

Well obviously I didn't interact with him like this when we first met or we wouldn't have married. I tried the "loving, sexy, happy" approach to complaints early on. Obviously it didn't work.

I'll go look for it but please throw in if anyone knows of something on-site. I've read the article about the unhappy/nagging wife and the warning to the Hs to respond before it gets that bad. But I don't recall anything telling the wife what she's supposed to do when the H doesn't. We read the Harley books when we first married, went to counseling when there were obvious problems. I tried plan A several times before I knew what plan A was. Remark even moved out once before to an apartment. It got here because nothing else worked.

If it's disrespectful to try to teach our spouses anything, what should have been done instead?

You've done it! Separated. When a husband doesn't stop despite his wife's complaints she has two options: separation to protect herself from witnessing the complaints or she can choose abuse by forcing her complaints on him.


You think it's your job to remodel him, it's not. It's your job to remove yourself until he does it. Keeping him in the home for a length of time is directly opposed to the goal of separation.

You are separated so that you can avoid experiencing each other in a negative way.

Prisca did not get me to realize that I messed up by blowing up at me.

She got me to realize that I had messed up by ending her demands, disrespect, and her anger, and by becoming the most charming wife she could be.

No, you don't reward thoughtlessness. You separate. And not for a short period before going back to business as usual, if your complaints are not addressed you divorce. Dr H addresses it in When to call it quits.

If you are looking for a method that works on the free will of another person there isn't one. The successful address of your complaints is not your job. Enforcement is limited to removing yourself.

However the most effective way to encourage your spouse is to avoid lovebusters and use PoJA and enforce what you won't accept with separation. Don't ever try to get your way verbally. Complaints are notifications which need no on the spot 'I get it' response.

I don't think you have eliminated SDs and DJs, your posts are littered with them. That conversation was not PoJAd as R was not enthusiastic. In the past, you have done things you were not enthusiastic about. It doesn't work.

For the time being, I'd raise your complaints here while you learn. Youre exhausted and could do with the help in having them addressed.

This is how you remembered the incident:

You remembered that Prisca/Mel had an angry outburst, threw something, yelled and stormed out, and you remembered markos/Mel's H backing down.

You interpret that as the correct response - he "got it", he "changed his response"," AT THAT MOMENT he did the right thing".

How was giving in about the shopping the "right thing"? And what was he supposed to "get" - that if his wife wants to buy expensive lettuce, then he is duty bound to give in to her? He told her to get whatever shopping she wanted. How, in the Marriage Builders universe, is that "the right thing"? Is it POJA?

Mel tells that story to show that she did not have a clue that she should have POJAd that situation. She "knew" she was right, and she knew it so much that she wrote to Dr H for validation - and got a shock when he wrote about her independent behaviour, and told her to knock it off. He told her that in future, she and her H were to agree every single item that went into the grocery cart, and if they could not agree on it, it should not be bought. He did not tell her that she was justified, as a woman who earned a good salary and had good sense, in taking decisions about what food should be bought, against her husband's clearly-expressed objections. He did not tell them that Mel"s H was right "to back down". In fact he told them the opposite - that Mel was wrong to have imposed her view (IB).

In fact, Dr H told them the same kind of thing that we have been trying to tell you; that you and Remark both do things that are harmful to the marriage. His IB, rudeness and other things are far more important than your unpleasant discussions and DJs, and his behaviour is by far the more pressing concern, but both of you do harmful things, and both must stop.

"There are two separate issues that should be addressed in your marriage: angry outbursts and independent behavior. The more important of the two is the angry outbursts." Dr H did not give Mel a pass when he wrote that.

The "right thing" in response to his angry outburst would have been for her H to have apologised, and for them to have left the shopping until he was calm - whether that took 15 minutes or was left to another day. The right thing in response to her IB would have been for him NOT to have backed down, but POJA.

Remark's "silence, or a smirk, defensiveness, or flipped two fingers" are unacceptable. Since he is doing those things now, you can end the marriage now. If you don't want to end it now, use Dr Harley's recommendation to write down the LBs and give them list to him weekly. If he doesn't change, end the marriage.

Obviously, I didn't remember the story fully. Hell, I didn't even remember who posted it or who it involved. I guess I just remembered what I wanted to. But don't worry, I've squashed that little sunbeam good! SO sorry I posted it in the first place. Back to being negative all the time, I guess. Apparently I'm much better at that anyway.

(Yes, I'm throwing a temper tantrum, but at least I'm not doing it to Remark, right?)

The tide can turn...

We learn new, better ways of interacting. There is hope, Day.

When's your appointment?

I don't know, I'm still waiting to hear, but my summary is done.