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If you're offering to help, than can you quote/copy/highlight examples of my bludgeoning, instead of telling me to go look for it, again, when I already admitted my inability to see it? I think you see it just fine. You know you are abusing Remark, which is why you offered so many reasons today to try to defend the idea that it is okay. You could always invest the time and effort to find it yourself, or get professional help to find it. Dr. Harley would probably be happy to help you for free. Yours feels very much like bludgeoning. What's wrong with that? Abuse is okay in some circumstances. What is wrong with bludgeoning people?
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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If you're offering to help, than can you quote/copy/highlight examples of my bludgeoning, instead of telling me to go look for it, again, when I already admitted my inability to see it? Yours feels very much like bludgeoning. We can't help you until you learn to stop minimizing and justifying your behavior. The problem is that you think it is fine to be abusive because of everybody else.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Tell me my input/perspective is not needed to assist with Remark and I won't post again. Is that a thoughtful request, a promise, or a demand? I am very hurt by your attitude toward our help for you. I have spent HOURS of my personal time helping you both. You have not looked for the truth in what any of us said. You are being argumentative, defensive and rude. If you can't stop being quarrelsome and nagging, there is no hope for your marriage even if Remark is, as you so disrespectfully say, "capable". You BOTH are capable. And YOUR Taker sure knows how to destroy motivation. You've destroyed my motivation to help. In my opinion, you guys won't succeed without doing the online program assignments and completing every single lesson assigned to you by your coach. They are PAID to help you learn these concepts. the coaches can hold you both indepently accountable. And you BOTH need lots of help and support. I say the following, coming from a place of care. I know that you are hurting. I'm sorry that you feel victimized. I have been in your shoes and it stinks. Please remember that you are in a supposed relationship of extraordinary care. YOU are not attracting your husband and he is NOT a rapist. It seems to me, that you are dueling dictators. I'm sorry, DQ, I know you've spent tons of time on us. You seem to be the only one still posting to Mark. At the same time, I feel like you're babysitting him, asking him if he has done specific tasks and not being at all bothered when he hasn't, even when it has been spelled out to him repeatedly. There's absolutely nothing appealing to me about that with doing the online program. At the same time, I get "see if you can find x somewhere in your post." "Edit your texts" seems a lot less nebulous and a lot more doable than "figure out how you're being disrespectful," yet he still isn't doing it, but I should bust my axx? Your time wasn't wasted. I presume the thread will stay online for some time. If Remark ever REALLY gets on board, then I can reread it. You totally missed everything DQ was saying to you. I think we should just stop here until you start listening to people.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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If you're offering to help, than can you quote/copy/highlight examples of my bludgeoning, instead of telling me to go look for it, again, when I already admitted my inability to see it? Why?
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Once again, you need to practice looking for the disrespect in yourself if you want to save your marriage, so it's important for you to go look for yourself.
I'd like to see some effort on your part to try. It's not "help" for me to just hand it to you on a silver platter, especially when you tend to shrug that "help" off.
Show some effort.
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Tell me my input/perspective is not needed to assist with Remark and I won't post again. Is that a thoughtful request, a promise, or a demand? I am very hurt by your attitude toward our help for you. I have spent HOURS of my personal time helping you both. You have not looked for the truth in what any of us said. You are being argumentative, defensive and rude. If you can't stop being quarrelsome and nagging, there is no hope for your marriage even if Remark is, as you so disrespectfully say, "capable". You BOTH are capable. And YOUR Taker sure knows how to destroy motivation. You've destroyed my motivation to help. In my opinion, you guys won't succeed without doing the online program assignments and completing every single lesson assigned to you by your coach. They are PAID to help you learn these concepts. the coaches can hold you both indepently accountable. And you BOTH need lots of help and support. I say the following, coming from a place of care. I know that you are hurting. I'm sorry that you feel victimized. I have been in your shoes and it stinks. Please remember that you are in a supposed relationship of extraordinary care. YOU are not attracting your husband and he is NOT a rapist. It seems to me, that you are dueling dictators. I'm sorry, DQ, I know you've spent tons of time on us. You seem to be the only one still posting to Mark. At the same time, I feel like you're babysitting him, asking him if he has done specific tasks and not being at all bothered when he hasn't, even when it has been spelled out to him repeatedly. There's absolutely nothing appealing to me about that with doing the online program. At the same time, I get "see if you can find x somewhere in your post." "Edit your texts" seems a lot less nebulous and a lot more doable than "figure out how you're being disrespectful," yet he still isn't doing it, but I should bust my axx? Your time wasn't wasted. I presume the thread will stay online for some time. If Remark ever REALLY gets on board, then I can reread it. You totally missed everything DQ was saying to you. I think we should just stop here until you start listening to people. Sorry, DQ, I'm not ignoring the rest of your post. I'm on my phone, at work, and it's difficult to maneuver a response to a long post. I read all of it, and asked because that's what moved me. I don't know that I have any motivation to go through what you did/are and I was just wondering what the drive was for you. It's fine, I need to stop too or I'm going to get fired. Later.
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Once again, you need to practice looking for the disrespect in yourself if you want to save your marriage, so it's important for you to go look for yourself.
I'd like to see some effort on your part to try. It's not "help" for me to just hand it to you on a silver platter, especially when you tend to shrug that "help" off.
Show some effort. then what help were you offering?
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Once again, you need to practice looking for the disrespect in yourself if you want to save your marriage, so it's important for you to go look for yourself.
I'd like to see some effort on your part to try. It's not "help" for me to just hand it to you on a silver platter, especially when you tend to shrug that "help" off.
Show some effort. then what help were you offering? I've explained that. First, find the disrespect in your posts. Show some effort. There is no reason to proceed on past this point until you: 1. Stop justifying your abuse and show willingness to eliminate the lovebusters. 2. Start showing some effort.
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What Plan B Letter are you going to use?
Who are you going to get as IM?
When are you going to change all your contact info?
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Tell me my input/perspective is not needed to assist with Remark and I won't post again. Is that a thoughtful request, a promise, or a demand? I am very hurt by your attitude toward our help for you. I have spent HOURS of my personal time helping you both. You have not looked for the truth in what any of us said. You are being argumentative, defensive and rude. If you can't stop being quarrelsome and nagging, there is no hope for your marriage even if Remark is, as you so disrespectfully say, "capable". You BOTH are capable. And YOUR Taker sure knows how to destroy motivation. You've destroyed my motivation to help. In my opinion, you guys won't succeed without doing the online program assignments and completing every single lesson assigned to you by your coach. They are PAID to help you learn these concepts. the coaches can hold you both indepently accountable. And you BOTH need lots of help and support. I say the following, coming from a place of care. I know that you are hurting. I'm sorry that you feel victimized. I have been in your shoes and it stinks. Please remember that you are in a supposed relationship of extraordinary care. YOU are not attracting your husband and he is NOT a rapist. It seems to me, that you are dueling dictators. I'm sorry, DQ, I know you've spent tons of time on us. You seem to be the only one still posting to Mark. At the same time, I feel like you're babysitting him, asking him if he has done specific tasks and not being at all bothered when he hasn't, even when it has been spelled out to him repeatedly. There's absolutely nothing appealing to me about that with doing the online program. At the same time, I get "see if you can find x somewhere in your post." "Edit your texts" seems a lot less nebulous and a lot more doable than "figure out how you're being disrespectful," yet he still isn't doing it, but I should bust my axx? Your time wasn't wasted. I presume the thread will stay online for some time. If Remark ever REALLY gets on board, then I can reread it. You totally missed everything DQ was saying to you. I think we should just stop here until you start listening to people. This would be really nice if JustDaytoDay is willing.
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So I just read that you are at work. Later. 
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Tell me my input/perspective is not needed to assist with Remark and I won't post again. Is that a thoughtful request, a promise, or a demand? I guess a promise? More an offer, really. I should have phrased it with an "If/then..." I am very hurt by your attitude toward our help for you. I have spent HOURS of my personal time helping you both.
You have not looked for the truth in what any of us said. You are being argumentative, defensive and rude. I have looked. I don't see the disrespect. I don't see the abuse. I finally just agreed like someone who has been interrogated for 14 hours straight, just in hopes of getting past the point. Now that's all anyone can post about. No one is going to successfully badger me into agreeing or seeing the same things the same way they do. I don't know anyone that that works for. Remark didn't agree with posters telling him either, he just learned to keep his head down (not being disrespectful, quoting him.) I find the suggestion to go look again--when I have repeatedly and don't even recognize what I'm looking for--to be completely unhelpful, especially when those same people admit that it's a fine line and it was difficult for them to learn as well. If you can't stop being quarrelsome and nagging, there is no hope for your marriage even if Remark is, as you so disrespectfully say, "capable". You BOTH are capable. And YOUR Taker sure knows how to destroy motivation. You've destroyed my motivation to help. Here's a perfect example. With using the word "capable," I'm actually quoting Dr. Harley when he said that Remark was either incapable or willfully negligent. I would say I was being respectful and positive because I wasn't saying he was incapable or willfully negligent, but was giving him an opportunity to demonstrate that he IS capable. Yet quoting Dr. Harley, in a positive vein, I'm accused of being disrespectful. Is it really any wonder why I can't see what everyone is complaining about? In my opinion, you guys won't succeed without doing the online program assignments and completing every single lesson assigned to you by your coach. They are PAID to help you learn these concepts. The coaches can hold you both indepently accountable. And you BOTH need lots of help and support. I'm considering it. I say the following, coming from a place of care. I know that you are hurting. I'm sorry that you feel victimized. I have been in your shoes and it stinks.
Please remember that you are in a supposed relationship of extraordinary care. YOU SHOULD BE attracting your husband and he is NOT a rapist. My analogy wasn't intended to focus on him being a rapist, it was representing my feelings that the forum was responding to my complaints about his independent behavior as if it was somehow MY fault.
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I am not really feeling heard though. So I feel as if my help has been rejected. Can you please summarize your understanding of the posters' recent messages to you? Sure. "You're a horrible person. Your behavior is worse than your H's. No matter how much you've corrected and how little he has, YOU'RE still not perfect so you don't get to complain about him, ever. HE has talked to STEVE!! You have too, but that doesn't count." And more of the same. (Of course some people have been understanding, but not most.) What I am hearing you say is that you have no motivation or willingness to take care of your side of things or to even engage in an educational process to learn how. What I would hope you would hear is that even with being in withdrawal (per Dr. Harley,) I've still done more to take care of my side of the street than he has. And that I have a problem with that seeming to be okay with everyone when he is claiming to be all-in. Remark is working with Steve weekly. Why would I hound someone who is meeting regularly with Steve? Why would we override Steve Harley? Why do you think he's meeting with Steve weekly? And after seeing the judgmental and scathing way you critique his thread and the help we do give him, I am concerned that calling him out will only reinforce your judgmental and punishing view of how to solve this problem.
Do you understand that your judgment and criticism of him plays a role in his passive agressive and reluctant attitude toward you? I would agree, except that the alternative, though it motivates him to engage, simply awakens his Taker again. My experience is that his reaction to my being nice and engaging is to try to get his own needs met, because he's still "clueless" about mine (again, quoting him.) If my husband pointed the finger at me, was threatening or working with an attorney, refused to accept and work on his side of things, and told the posters that they better get upset with me when I let up...I think I would feel hopeless and limit my posts. It would take monumental effort to push through my humiliation, not blow a gasket, and keep meeting with Steve Harley. Your husband is on board but his motivation is fluctuating based on your signals. He is putting effort. But you are critical. It's important that he show you some changes. And your job is to treat him and talk about him with respect and care to show him the prize and help him stay motivated. Steve said that it's not my job to make myself fall in love with Remark (and vice versa.) That sounds like you just put the burden on me to do that for him. Day-
Many days, I had to remind myself that remember I CHOSE the difficult road to work on my marriage with an unmotivated and incredibly disrespectful partner. I suffered through criticisms and scathing verbal statements that I was not what he wanted. His criticisms were multiplied by his mood disorder but unnessary and disrespectful regardless. While my husband has slowly learned about his disrespectful habits, I DECIDED to work on mine. and I am STILL doing that 5 years later. And I have learned how to protect myself from his disrespect and critism in nonabusive ways. What has kept me trying is doing the online program, listening to the radio show, and seeing SLOW improvements from the online program coaches' third party help. They helped me see how my husband WAS trying because he did care, and gave me the picture I was missing. They patiently worked with my husband to help him learn. (He has less time because of his job. So I had to take that into consideration.)
You don't have to choose the difficult road that I did. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it. And I'm not saying that I am a saint for doing it. I did it because I chose to, and I had to follow the program!!!
You need to look at yourself in order to see the fair picture. And if you are still considering recovery, then you do need to show Remark a consistent picture of the basket where ALL OF HIS EGGS are going to be. Otherwise, disengage (Plan B) until you are ready to do that. (I don't think that you want a divorce. There is SOME need that he meets or some reason it's undesirable for you or you wouldn't be here.)
Complaints can open the door to problem solving,
but finger pointers and Renters wreck their marriages. Sincerely, kudos to you! Honestly, I don't believe I would choose that path, and I believe that that is the choice put before me.
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Remarks independent behavior, all of his behavior, is 100% his own reponsibility.
When you post, and we focus on YOUR behavior, it is not placing blame on you for his behavior. It is working on YOUR bad habits.
We can't particularly help YOU fix HIS behavior beyond the strategies you have been given ad nasuem;
It bothers me when you...
I would love it if you would...
I love it when...
This conversation is no longer safe/pleasant, what should we have for dinner?
Much more than that, and we are simply loading the AO/SD/DJ cannon for you.
Instead we are trying to help you eliminate love busting habits.
Remark will have to pull his own weight, with his own effort, on his own thread.
If he doesn't, and you do?
Well, then he loses the opportunity to have a fulfilling, romantic marriage with a woman who has eliminated her own love busting habits... and some day someone else may be the benefactor.
Success isn't always a recovered marriage, especially if there is a spouse that won't commit to learning healthy marriage habits.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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**EDIT**
Last edited by MBSync; 07/29/15 05:48 AM. Reason: TOS - disrespectful
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ure. "You're a horrible person. Your behavior is worse than your H's. No matter how much you've corrected and how little he has, YOU'RE still not perfect so you don't get to complain about him, ever. HE has talked to STEVE!! You have too, but that doesn't count." Except no one actually SAID any of that.
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I have looked. I don't see the disrespect. I don't see the abuse. I finally just agreed like someone who has been interrogated for 14 hours straight, just in hopes of getting past the point. Now that's all anyone can post about. No one is going to successfully badger me into agreeing or seeing the same things the same way they do. I don't know anyone that that works for. Remark didn't agree with posters telling him either, he just learned to keep his head down (not being disrespectful, quoting him.) I find the suggestion to go look again--when I have repeatedly and don't even recognize what I'm looking for--to be completely unhelpful, especially when those same people admit that it's a fine line and it was difficult for them to learn as well. Still not seeing any effort, JDD. There's a lot of talk, but no effort. I find it interesting that you are upset with Remark for his little effort, when you make so little effort yourself. It isn't that hard to look at one post and make a stab at what might be considered disrespectful. It doesn't take a MB expert to do that. We all had to do it ourselves, and nobody is asking you to do anything impossible. Keep in mind that after you divorce Remark, no relationship is going to work with any man unless you get this disrespect problem under control.
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What Plan B Letter are you going to use?
Who are you going to get as IM?
When are you going to change all your contact info? Please answer these questions. If you are going to Plan B, then they are crucial.
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ure. "You're a horrible person. Your behavior is worse than your H's. No matter how much you've corrected and how little he has, YOU'RE still not perfect so you don't get to complain about him, ever. HE has talked to STEVE!! You have too, but that doesn't count." Except no one actually SAID any of that. This seriously makes me doubt what you say about Remark. If you cannot report what WE say accurately, how can we be sure you're doing so about Remark?
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I will follow the program when he demonstrates that he has the ability to change. I believe at this stage of separation/divorce, my position is in-line with the Harley program, just like if he were having an affair or abusing drugs or looking at pornography. I've done plan A, very successfully. Now I'm proceeding with plan B. Getting out of plan B isn't contingent upon him SAYING he'll stop those behaviors but rather actually doing it.
If you're working to help Remark and need something from me, have him send me an email. I'm officially in plan B. You can't plan A while lovebusting so I don't get where the 'very successfully' comes from. I divorced because of adultery, and I absolutely support a decision to exit a marriage which is lacking in care. Do it if you want it. I just don't support your lovebusting. I certainly did not lovebust on my way out in either plan A or plan B and there was an affair with my best friend being rubbed in my face. Getting out of plan B isn't contingent upon him SAYING he'll stop those behaviors but rather actually doing it. Do what though? Ask you out? How on earth do you have a fun romantic date with someone you just compared to a rapist? I have no idea how you do that. It's fine to expect proactive care, but I don't see how you can while actively sabotaging all hope. I honestly can't tell if you are trying to drive him towards divorce or are just being unwise out of frustration. I'm not in plan A. When I was, I didn't love bust. I admire your abilities. I would hope to aspire to that level but I wouldn't bet on it. Wanting him to edit his texts doesn't seem extraordinary. Seems far simpler than planning a romantic date. Seems like it should be doable, for someone that wanted to show care. You don't need any abilities to stop doing something. You just need a reason. For me it took an affair before I stopped lovebusting. Once things got serious, I got serious. Before that I thought it was perfectly fine to screw around and love bust if I was annoyed enough. At the point of 'do or die' I realized it wasn't OK. No contact = no email = alternate mode of communication for son = IM = instant messaging.... Made sense to me.
Are you going to tell me what it is? JD2D, you are the one who announced you were entering Plan B, which makes it sound like you know what it is. That makes it difficult to advise you because you're not asking but telling. If you are interested in Plan B I'm not sure I've ever heard of it taking place alongside a divorce except in cases where there is a mistress or an addiction and the finances have to be secured. It isn't compatible with a desire to recover. The other thing about plan B is it is a formalized plan in that you know how to end it. I.e. what are your conditions for ending it and starting marriage recovery? You can't say 'I am watching for changes' because you won't have contact. The usual conditions for ending plan B involve ending an affair, agreeing to end porn use, agreeing to UA time or entering this program. And see, I find that disrespectful, too. You could have just told me what it is rather than point out my mistake without offering assistance. Do you reserve your respectful interactions to your wife because it doesn't matter if you're disrespectful to others? Or is it only YOUR definition if disrespect that you consider? JD2D, you need to ask for help if you need it. I find it alarming that you demand it. Posters here are volunteers under no obligation to help. If they really believed you were a 'horrible person' they would just stop posting. Every post is a sign of faith that you can put aside your frustration and stop lovebusting - just as we all did. . My analogy wasn't intended to focus on him being a rapist, it was representing my feelings that the forum was responding to my complaints about his independent behavior as if it was somehow MY fault. This is a great example of poor communication and I hope I explain this well. Good ways to stop lovebusting and improve communication is: 1) Don't assume the mindsets of the other party. Ask. If you had we would have reiterated a person's behaviour is their own decision. IB on his part is not your fault any more than your abuse is his fault. 2) Speak clearly. Talk about what your own feelings and hopes are, not deflecting and talking about what you feel others might be feeling using a metaphor. Which I am very interested in by the way. What is it you want? I think you are very frustrated and upset and not exactly sure.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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