I have had that sense throughout this entire thread, but since no one else pointed it out, I felt I must have misread the red flags.

There just seems to be too much demonizing and portraying of the Too Little, Too Late, and I'm done, these changes are just temporary.....

All while this man sincerely seems to be learning and slowly applying these new habits.

I would believe that many BH's on here would have proclaimed that their WW's could never have been so dishonest, etc...

SNOOP!!!

And keep studying, learning and applying the lessons being taught.

LTL

That's a Great List to start recognizing erroneous comments, attitudes and behaviors.

Thanks for posting it.

LTL

Btw, I just read JDTD's reply to Prisca's comment/observation and am glad there is potential technical transparency.

Are there any OS friends who are "Just Friends" though?

LTL

Remark, your wife's use of the word "ludicrous" is concerning. Don't discuss it with her any further. Just quietly snoop, especially in the coming months/years. If she has nothing to hide, this will not bother her. Such transparency is good for marriage.

If you ever do find anything, don't post it. Notify the mods who will be able to help you.

Don't discuss snooping with her. Don't discuss the possibility of an affair. Just keep an eye on her because it is a very real possibility. She's vulnerable.

Such as the male coworker.

And don't think that just checking her email or phone is enough, because she can delete everything before you check.

Keep in mind that we are not saying she is ABSOLUTELY having an affair. But she is exhibiting certain behaviors that suggest it is a possibility. So snooping for awhile will either prove her innocence or prove her guilt, and either way you will be better off knowing for certain what you are facing.

Four years ago when markos and I first joined this forum, I was just as "done" as your wife claims to be. Some people suggested to him that I might be having an affair. He blew them off.

I wasn't having an affair at the time they suggested it, but I was very vulnerable to having one. Eight months later, I started an EA.

Keep in mind that she's vulnerable. Being "done" with the marriage makes one vulnerable.

Now, how are any interactions going on today?

Keep up with the tutoring lessons from Markos and the other vets.

You can do this. I know you are struggling to get it, but keep practicing and it will become 2nd nature to you.

Now, don't drop off the face of the earth. Now is the time to really push forward and learn.

When your W sees continued improvements, then she will see what the both of you can build Together.

LTL

Thanks LTL and everyone,

Last night was a very late night. We talked until after 3:00 AM. (I was exhausted as I've been getting little sleep of late and I usually start work at 6:00 AM.)

I had no AO's but did catch myself saying "I'm trying" 3-4 times. As tired as I was, eye contact slipped now and again, too, she pointed out.

She wants to go to plan B as some have advised her on her thread.

Soldiering on and hoping to interact with Markos and vets,
remark

Remark, don't discuss Plan B with her. That's her decision to make if she chooses, not a decision that a couple makes.

I strongly encourage you not to stay up late having relationship discussions. Prisca and I used to do that all the time in the days before Marriage Builders, and it never led to any good.

When your marriage is good again, you may want to stay up that late having FUN discussions, but that's something different (and I still suggest getting a good night's sleep!)

Agreed. You are setting yourself up for failure by doing that, since nobody could manage to keep eye contact that late at night and sleep deprived.

Remark, is your wife welcome to snoop on you, check up on you, etc., in any way she chooses?

Time to man up and be completely honest.

Your Wife does not accept your minimizations of the Deleted Texts and that still stabs her to this day, while minimizing those actions have been partially why she doesn't givea dang anymore.

A person who has nothing to hide, hides nothing.

Why did you previously delete those texts?

What are you currently doing in todays timeframe that triggers her to remember that so distinctly?

What else can you change? How about Radical Honesty to your Wife about those types of triggers?

LTL

Yes, nothing to hide.

Agreed. Nothing to hide.
What triggers?. I don't know besides unmet ENs for years, and current LBs.
Why delete emails? Because I was an idiot who, 8 yrs ago, was stupid and curious about old flame who's name he saw in paper. I was an idiot, yet smart enough to realize I probably delete the emails. Guilty on that. Foolish, stupid, idiotic. No excuses.
Am radically honest and desiring of mutual extraordinary precautions, radical honesty and meeting each other's ENs without committing LBs. It's frustrating not being able to get us there,

Yes, absolutely.

Please use the "Quote" feature, like I just did, so we can follow what you are replying to.

Yes, absolutely.

Based on a discussion today, I have some insight into some 'triggers' which cause her to feel disrespected.

About 10 days ago, she mentioned to me that the flapper in one of the toilets needed replacing, because the toilet leaked enough for the toilet to refill itself every so often. So, I went and replaced the flapper in that toilet.

It was still acting up a few days later, (last Wednesday) so, without additional conversation, I stopped on my way home from work and got a new Fluidmaster float mechanism ($10) fix that as it was catching or something and not working. In that process, the flexible hose from the all to the toilet got crimped and has a slow drip that still isn't fixed.

OK, to the issue. We had a significant discussion on this topic today as from her perspective, I violated POJA by doing anything more than just the flapper.

From my perspective, I thought I had been asked to replace the flapper, which I took as tantamount as 'fix the toilet'. So, as long as I had to spend nominal money to do it, (not replacing the whole toilet or involving a plumber, etc.) I had the authority to do so.

In our conversation, since I bought additional parts on a subsequent trip to the hardware store, I violated POJA in doing so. She related it to this example. "Say we discussed it and we agreed that I was going to the golf sporting goods store to buy some new golf balls. On that trip, not only did I buy golf balls, but new golf clubs and a golf getaway trip because they were having a sale." (Readers, this was her example; It didn't happen. It was simply what she was characterizing my purchase of a couple more parts totaling $27 so I could fix the toilet.)

So, that triggers her into the position of me being disrespectful.

OK, I understand that.

In describing POJA, Dr H uses the exercise of shopping at a grocery store together. In another example, he uses the example of asking if he can take the trash out. I recall the example, but I don't recall the meaning or context. Of course, a spouse doesn't need to ask for permission to go to the bathroom. Should one also consult spouse on taking the trash out or on additional parts for a toilet repair, when he thought he had been asked to repair it with the request to "replace the flapper"?

I love all of the Harley concepts. Where, though, does POJA start/stop on something like this?

I one of us buys anything, even like needed new underwear, without checking with the other, is that a POJA violation?

Please, I need some feedback on this one.
Thanks,
remark